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Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire - Page 27

post #1041 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

yeah got it...
that's kinda my point - i'm sick of hearing it too.

For $1444 you should just quit whining and get the MBP that TBaggins is considering.

Quote:
just because i can depreciate it doesn't mean i want to purchase a MBP
i'm one of those who wants the smaller, lighter but one that works

The size isn't all that different as previous pictures has shown.

Quote:
ok whatever we're going circles - i'm not sure of your attitude to Apple
but i kinda note that a lot of people on these boards say Apple is always right
(ie their decision to remove FW must be right - hey this is APPLE we're talking about)
until it suits their argument to point out that Apple must be wrong...

No one has said that Apple is always right. That's another strawman argument. However, just because you disagree with one of their decisions doesn't make it wrong either.

Removing FW this generation will piss folks off but allows them to continue to segment their markets into two. Before they used graphics (another $5 part difference). Now they use FW/Expresscard and that has a far lower impact to adoption than graphics.

Both the MB and Mini suffered greatly when they lost discrete graphics. Now the MB is fixed. Hopefully soon the Mini will be fixed too.
post #1042 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

But as I've said earlier, I do think Apple dropped FW too early. This maker, and others, will convert their products to USB 3 once it's out, and when the handwriting on the wall now, is rewritten in bold, capital letters.

2006 would have been too soon but with FW's wane this is really the first time they could. A tad aggressive but I think the lack of graphics capabilities on the MB has been hurting them enough they did it now before USB3 was available.

They have ALWAYS had the option of better intergrated GPUs on the MB and mini and folks have hammered them for that as well. Why do I need to get a MBP to play games, blah blah? Apple is stupid, blah blah. There was significant bitching about the Intel Mini vs the G4 mini in terms of graphics and the fact that aTV has a real GPU when the Mini doesn't.

Whether FW disappears on the Mini is debatable. But losing FW on the Mini to get better graphics is a good trade as opposed to staying with intel GMAs.
post #1043 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

2006 would have been too soon but with FW's wane this is really the first time they could. A tad aggressive but I think the lack of graphics capabilities on the MB has been hurting them enough they did it now before USB3 was available.

They have ALWAYS had the option of better intergrated GPUs on the MB and mini and folks have hammered them for that as well. Why do I need to get a MBP to play games, blah blah? Apple is stupid, blah blah. There was significant bitching about the Intel Mini vs the G4 mini in terms of graphics and the fact that aTV has a real GPU when the Mini doesn't.

Whether FW disappears on the Mini is debatable. But losing FW on the Mini to get better graphics is a good trade as opposed to staying with intel GMAs.

can you please explain how / why you want to trade graphics for connectivity?
hmm... are you going to use cost or space arguments.
strawman anyone ? (yes i looked it up, you americans are all about fighting !?)

oh and the "wane" - yes can you back that up too pls?
thanks

you mentioned 78% of cams in 2007 had FW with 88% sometime before
(i deliberately left the figures wrong so that you could disagree and correct me )

now 85% to 77% would be a trend wouldn't it...
except that you haven't taken into account whether the cam market is expanding or shrinking
and from which ends
eg if the lower end is expanding (and generally in IT it is) while the upper end is static (?)
then FW might just be 'excluded' from a lower expanding end
which means USB is for all the lower quality cams
(which would make sense for a number of reasons)

then to link this back to your apple "consumer market" you'd have to
justify whether the apple MB purchaser actually buys the lower end USB cams
or the upper end FW cams...

since the MB is clearly priced at the higher end purchaser - despite a number claims that it's most often purchased by joe the cleaner.
off you go - do your best !

yes i'll quit "whining" and purchase an MBP
when you provide one good reason i should do that
post #1044 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

can you please explain how / why you want to trade graphics for connectivity?
hmm... are you going to use cost or space arguments.
strawman anyone ? (yes i looked it up, you americans are all about fighting !?)

oh and the "wane" - yes can you back that up too pls?
thanks

you mentioned 78% of cams in 2007 had FW with 88% sometime before
(i deliberately left the figures wrong so that you could disagree and correct me )

now 85% to 77% would be a trend wouldn't it...
except that you haven't taken into account whether the cam market is expanding or shrinking
and from which ends
eg if the lower end is expanding (and generally in IT it is) while the upper end is static (?)
then FW might just be 'excluded' from a lower expanding end
which means USB is for all the lower quality cams
(which would make sense for a number of reasons)

then to link this back to your apple "consumer market" you'd have to
justify whether the apple MB purchaser actually buys the lower end USB cams
or the upper end FW cams...

since the MB is clearly priced at the higher end purchaser - despite a number claims that it's most often purchased by joe the cleaner.
off you go - do your best !

yes i'll quit "whining" and purchase an MBP
when you provide one good reason i should do that

Vinea doesn't do reasons. He just has blind faith that Apple is always right in its actions. But if we've learned from anything from the Iphone, if there's enough public outcry, Apple can change its mistakes.
post #1045 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

Pls an example of a similar unit... on anything other than FW

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MultiMix16U2

http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHXENYX2442FX

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_u...rackUltra.html

http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/...-0404-usb.html

http://store.apple.com/us/product/TQ...A&mco=MTA4NTcx

http://www.midi-store.com/Yamaha-Aud...e-p-17994.html

http://www.zzounds.com/item--MTU828MKII

http://www.newworldproaudio.com/Yama..._358-1873.html

May or may not be "pro" quality but good enough for GarageBand.

Quote:
I believe the makers (if they do migrate) will only do so if they are forced.

Probably PC users asking them to do it. These all came before the MB appeared.

Quote:
Remember they were free to choose USB2 at the time
and yet they chose FW - despite poor market penetration
which everyone is at pains to point out.

Can you tell me why?

inertia.
post #1046 of 1657


homework - i like it
actually the only decent interface on the list is the MOTU 828 mkII
and honestly it surprised me to see that they have USB for it
although i suspect it could be just a ZZsounds typo
because no 828mkII photos or reviews mention USB2.

then i looked it up and saw that for the MkIII version
they've gone back to FW only... \

either way, after the 828 in 2001, the 828mkII and the 828 mkIII (released 2008) all had the chance to use
what you think is equivalent tech - USB2
but they chose FW

no inertia
post #1047 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

homework - i like it

A minute or two with Google.

Quote:
actually the only decent interface on the list is the MOTU 828 mkII

Dunno...not an audio guy which is why I refrained from listing these earlier.

But yamaha and m-audio seem like respected brands. Is there something wrong with the M-Audio FastTrack Series? The FastTrack 8R is 8x8. Folks seem to recommend the FastTrack.

Quote:
and honestly it surprised me to see that they have USB for it
although i suspect it could be just a ZZsounds typo

Seems that it would have been easier just to go to Motu's website.

http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/828mkII/

Quote:
then i looked it up and saw that for the MkIII version
they've gone back to FW only... \

I'm going to bet they'll add a USB2 version for the Mk III.

"A new era in sleek, stylish mobile studio recording has arrived, and your MOTU software and hardware products are ready today. USB2 connectivity with the new 13-inch MacBook is just the beginning."

http://www.motu.com/newsitems/new-ma...ur-motu-studio

Yes, the MkIII is shown with FW but that's what they have out today.

Hey, to brighten your day... evidently the new MBPs use the Lucent vs Ti chipset for FW. Heh, Jobs really hates you audio folks...
post #1048 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

A minute or two with Google.

Dunno...not an audio guy which is why I refrained from listing these earlier.

But yamaha and m-audio seem like respected brands. Is there something wrong with the M-Audio FastTrack Series? The FastTrack 8R is 8x8. Folks seem to recommend the FastTrack.

most of those ones only have stereo out.
where USB falls down is providing multi-in-multi out
(which the fastrack seems to - i'll have to look at the reviews)
even the endorsement of it on their site is kinda sarcastic
Quote:
Up until I started playing with the Fast Track Ultra I hadn't met a USB interface that I liked . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Seems that it would have been easier just to go to Motu's website.

http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/828mkII/

yes but you'll notice that there's no USB connection on the unit
which means that you have to use a FW to USB adapter
(essentially the intelligence of the unit plays dumb and the host controls)
which you can do with a number of FW units

i was looking for reviews to see if anyone had performance data
but no one was stupid enough to try it
and if so the latency problems which are bound to occur on everything except perhaps an 8 core MP with optimised software (logic 8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

I'm going to bet they'll add a USB2 version for the Mk III.

"A new era in sleek, stylish mobile studio recording has arrived, and your MOTU software and hardware products are ready today. USB2 connectivity with the new 13-inch MacBook is just the beginning."

i'm sure your not
but don't go confusing their 'new era' statements by thinking they're talking about USB

they're just trying to cover apple's stuff up (and slap in the face to them)
(and not lose the hoards of people trying to find a good interface for their new MB)
by telling people that you can still go back down in tech from FW to USB2
i'm not being facitious there - i think we could both agree that FW is better for that kinda thing (multi-track audio).

sorry i have no justification for the use of the word "hoards"

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

http://www.motu.com/newsitems/new-ma...ur-motu-studio

Yes, the MkIII is shown with FW but that's what they have out today.

Hey, to brighten your day... evidently the new MBPs use the Lucent vs Ti chipset for FW. Heh, Jobs really hates you audio folks...

finally a smile - i like it
yeah i know - he's stuffing us around a bit
fortunately the mac pro still uses the TI chips
hence no good reason for me to 'update' even if i wanted to.
post #1049 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

can you please explain how / why you want to trade graphics for connectivity?

I already have. Apple wants to segment consumer and pro markets. They did that in the past with graphics. They do that today with connectivity.

Would I want a 13" MBP with FW800 and discrete graphics for $1299? Sure. Will we get it? No.

Quote:
oh and the "wane" - yes can you back that up too pls?
thanks

you mentioned 78% of cams in 2007 had FW with 88% sometime before
(i deliberately left the figures wrong so that you could disagree and correct me )

I already did and you already read that link so it's already backed up. Given that the break down is not by market segment, the additional information you wish is not there.

However, given that the MB IS a consumer laptop AND the most likely place for USB to overtake FW on camcorders is in the lower end consumer space the conclusion you draw is likely.

But it also doesn't support your position that the loss of FW is terrible for the average consumer.

Quote:
then to link this back to your apple "consumer market" you'd have to
justify whether the apple MB purchaser actually buys the lower end USB cams
or the upper end FW cams...

Just to try and convince someone that regardless of how many links I produce for you will ask for ever increasing detail? No thanks. The market will decide. If moving away from FW for the MB is a terrible mistake the market will punish Apple for it.

Of course, folks who claim that losing FW is a terrible mistake also claim this wont happen...mmmkay. It was so catastrophic a decision but Apple will sell more MB than ever anyway...okay, whatever.

Quote:
yes i'll quit "whining" and purchase an MBP
when you provide one good reason i should do that

How about just quitting whining? As shown, there ARE USB devices for Audio. While the choices are slimmer than before until manufacturers catch up there certainly ARE consumer/prosumer (and low end pro) devices from respected brands available on USB today. likewise there are consumer/prosumer (and low end pro) camcorders from respected brands available on USB today.
post #1050 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

yes but you'll notice that there's no USB connection on the unit which means that you have to use a FW to USB adapter (essentially the intelligence of the unit plays dumb and the host controls) which you can do with a number of FW units

"the 828mkII includes 16-channels of MIDI input and output via its hi-speed USB 2.0 connection to the computer. Simply plug in your USB cable, and both MIDI and audio are ready to go. Connect any MIDI device, such as a controller keyboard, synth module, automated control surface or drum machine. Timing is sample-accurate with supporting software."



http://www.gigasonic.com/MOTU-828mkII/image-gallery/

Hey, look...google found me a picture of the MKII with a USB port in the back. That was sure harder than making stuff up about needing an adapter...

Quote:
i was looking for reviews to see if anyone had performance data but no one was stupid enough to try it
and if so the latency problems which are bound to occur on everything except perhaps an 8 core MP with optimised software (logic 8)

Yes, no one was stupid enough to try it but Motu was stupid enough to build one.

Google is your friend:

"Sorry, but again I have to disagree, when I'm getting 24/96 on my USB2.0 with multiple tracks, and my friend runs a MOTU 828MkII USB2.0 with 8 tracks at a time. No glitch, low latency."

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost...5&postcount=10
post #1051 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

"the 828mkII includes 16-channels of MIDI input and output via its hi-speed USB 2.0 connection to the computer. Simply plug in your USB cable, and both MIDI and audio are ready to go. Connect any MIDI device, such as a controller keyboard, synth module, automated control surface or drum machine. Timing is sample-accurate with supporting software."



"Sorry, but again I have to disagree, when I'm getting 24/96 on my USB2.0 with multiple tracks, and my friend runs a MOTU 828MkII USB2.0 with 8 tracks at a time. No glitch, low latency."

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost...5&postcount=10

I've used this one --

http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com...ace?sku=245002

--at a friend's small studio (control room, fairly nice booth). Why did he go with this over other things? He "ear'd" the preamps and liked this one for some reason (and a Tascam at that, too!). Latency... not a problem at all (Mac Pro he picked up four months ago).

I've used the Motu's (both firewire and USB), and they're about the same. It used to be that only the firewire interfaces worked well (for any of the interfaces, not particularly the Motu USB). The drivers have gotten much better for USB interfaces, and the machines have gotten more powerful.

Me, I have to think they may have taken the firewire off a mite early (so many small video cameras people still own, even if they're slowly buying new ones with USB), but a choice is a choice, and I don't know if Apple's going back... but maybe. My nine-year-old's video camera is firewire, so I have to keep some computers still with it. I don't use the Macbook for anything (always Mac Pro's and MBP's), but....
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post #1052 of 1657
post #1053 of 1657
Quote:

A lot of the ones you're choosing look more like mixing boards (though I haven't looked too closely), which usually throw a stereo track via USB to a nearby computer. More for live sound than in the studio. They've had USB for awhile. It's the computer interfaces for multi-track (real multi-track, not the mixer, two-track multi-track in a lot of adds) like the Motu and others that are the real change coming along. Firewire used to be sacrosanct in this area (except for the very cheapest two to four, maybe a midi as well, take on the road and "doodle" with types), and now we're starting to see eight and sixteen track interfaces that are going USB and seeming (at least the ones I've used) to have licked the latency problems.
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post #1054 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post


Hey, look...google found me a picture of the MKII with a USB port in the back. That was sure harder than making stuff up about needing an adapter...

i stand corrected on the USB only model availability

but about the adapter
i don't make stuff up duuuuuudddddde

Quote:
If there's no built-in FireWire, you can either purchase a FireWire adapter product or use the 828mkII-USB model connected to any built-in USB port.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Yes, no one was stupid enough to try it but Motu was stupid enough to build one.

Google is your friend:

"Sorry, but again I have to disagree, when I'm getting 24/96 on my USB2.0 with multiple tracks, and my friend runs a MOTU 828MkII USB2.0 with 8 tracks at a time. No glitch, low latency."

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost...5&postcount=10

"low latency" is relative - i've heard some pretty nasty delay-like latency described as low...
but then maybe i'm just avoiding
i'd prefer to see a pro review before purchase - but that's just me.
the other thing is CPU load - just because the computer can do it doesn't make it optimal
my old core duo macbook can run up to 14 tracks of 96 kHz audio
but it sweats like a pig doing so and the fans (noise!) are maxed out the whole time...
USB would be worse... if it even worked.

so yes take your shot
(you've earned it over the last half hour of searching
and look now you know a little more about audio... )

but don't avoid explaining why the mkIII has gone FW...
post #1055 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Google is your friend:
"Sorry, but again I have to disagree, when I'm getting 24/96 on my USB2.0 with multiple tracks, and my friend runs a MOTU 828MkII USB2.0 with 8 tracks at a time. No glitch, low latency."

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost...5&postcount=10

yes and if you look at the comments on harmony central
and here you'll see that latency is an issue
(amid rumours that the mkII is being phased out)

and yet strangely the ones with the firewire version don't complain about this...

Note that the 828MkII was originally released in FW only in 2004 when it won awards etc
(which is why the initial reviews make no mention of USB) and then later in Nov 2005
they put out the USB2 version

but whoever's feeling confident - feel free to buy the USB version
post #1056 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

so yes take your shot
(you've earned it over the last half hour of searching
and look now you know a little more about audio... )

I refrained before because I am not an audio guy and I've gone about as far as I will.

i will discuss user interfaces, programming, games, AI, operating systems, home theater and even file systems (to some degree) at greater depth and length.

Outside of those areas, I simply sanity/fact check on the web. When someone says X can't be done, or Y doesn't exist and I'm curious if X can be done or Y exists, I bother to take a look. Mostly not because even two minute googles add up in time.

Quote:
but don't avoid explaining why the mkIII has gone FW...

Probably for the same reason that Mk II started as FW and they added USB later...
post #1057 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Probably for the same reason that Mk II started as FW and they added USB later...

but that only concludes that FW is still the 1st choice
which goes completely against any conclusions
that FW is dead or behind or being phased out
or that due to increased CPU power USB has caught up...

but you may be right regarding a USB version
now that Apple has forced the hand of those 3rd party manufacturers chasing the MB market
they might feel compelled to bring out USB options

which I'm sure a number of USB fans will use to conclude that FW is dead
until they start running into the inevitable problems with USB 2
latency, CPU use, heat, memory, sample frequency, bit rate, n° of track limitations etc
post #1058 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

For $1444 you should just quit whining and get the MBP that TBaggins is considering.

Hmm... that's a pretty unfair comment to make to 'ross.

1) The MB Pro deal at Amazon is obviously VERY TEMPORARY. Doesn't really solve the problem of ppl being forced up to the $2000 level just to have the connectivity they want (though I'm sure Apple doesn't see it as a problem, and won't unless it comes back to bite them in the ass).

2) Why assume that the other poster is in a position right this second to make a major purchase? Maybe it won't happen for a couple months. Maybe it won't happen 'til next year. By which time, said MB Pro deal is long gone.

3) It's been my experience on the AI boards that most of the ppl who accuse others of "whining" are actually defining "whining" as "anything said which does not agree with my personal point-of-view."

At which point, they then "whine about whining".

Quote:
No one has said that Apple is always right. That's another strawman argument.

Not really. Plenty of ppl on AI seem to be knee-jerk "whatever Steve says" -ers.

At best, it's kinda like they're John McCain, and Steve is George Bush. Sure, they've disagreed/been independent once in a blue moon, but overall they agree with their man reflexively, nearly every time, and whenever in doubt too.

I like Steve, but he has a very strong set of biases and priorities in design, marketing and pricing that is not for everyone, and which should not lend themselves to blind agreement in every or almost every case, "just 'cuz". Some ppl do understand what they're buying into when they go along with Steve in all things, but many are just fanbois and frankly do not.


Quote:
However, just because you disagree with one of their decisions doesn't make it wrong either.

Just like agreeing doesn't make it right either. So why even bring it up?


Quote:
Removing FW this generation will piss folks off but allows them to continue to segment their markets into two. Before they used graphics (another $5 part difference). Now they use FW/Expresscard and that has a far lower impact to adoption than graphics.

You forgot screen size, which is important to a lot of folks. Screen size and expandability likely would've allowed them to continue to segment the markets without dumping FW prematurely, as they did. Especially considering that the price delta between the top MB and bottom MB Pro just narrowed.

Also add to this that the new MB graphics, while improved, still aren't necessarily in what you'd call 'hardcore' performance territory. So even that can still be a minor point of differentiation, along with screen and slots.

Finally, it's not like Apple is straight-jacketed into only these things if differentiation is such an extreme worry to them. Howzabout having integrated 3G on the MB Pros, eh?


Quote:
Both the MB and Mini suffered greatly when they lost discrete graphics. Now the MB is fixed. Hopefully soon the Mini will be fixed too.

Hmm, that's odd. I seem to remember ppl complaining about the MB going to integrated graphics being labelled "whiners" at the time (not necessarily by you, though it wouldn't shock me).

Now Apple finally does what ppl wanted them to do on graphics (well, more or less), and that's now super-cool and NOT "whining", 'cuz Apple now agrees that it was a good idea?

Like I said, John McCain-George Bush. AI is one weeeiiiirrrd place.



PS- Anyone else got any 'last-gen MB Pro vs new MetalBook' thoughts for me?

(Thanks for yours btw, Vin.)

...
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post #1059 of 1657

You don't know or probably don't care anything about music production, but the USB versions are inferior to the firewire version. Take the MOTU 828.

The firewire version is 24-bit, 192khz and has 28 inputs and 30 outputs. The USB version is 24-bit 96khz has 20 inputs and 22 inputs.
post #1060 of 1657
Firewire is dead, get over it.
post #1061 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adjei View Post

Firewire is dead, get over it.

Firewire is dead. Long live Firewire!
post #1062 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

PS- Anyone else got any 'last-gen MB Pro vs new MetalBook' thoughts for me?
...

How about calling the "new MetalBooks" "MacBricks"? It's shorter and links up with the "brick" conundrum prior to their release.

Incidentally, if Apple comes out with a low-end netbook, I suggest we dub it the MacBook Po'
post #1063 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

The size isn't all that different as previous pictures has shown.

If everyone had your attitude, we'd still be carrying 10lb 14" notebooks everywhere. Just because you don't see a use for it doesn't mean one doesn't exist. It's the only size that will fit into my briefcase with all the paperwork I carry. I'm not carrying a backpack to work just to get Firewire.
post #1064 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adjei View Post

Firewire is dead, get over it.

The video and music industries didn't get the memo. Then again, if Apple had introduced FW3200 you'd be proclaiming its the greatest thing since sliced bread, wouldn't you?
post #1065 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

2006 would have been too soon but with FW's wane this is really the first time they could. A tad aggressive but I think the lack of graphics capabilities on the MB has been hurting them enough they did it now before USB3 was available.

They have ALWAYS had the option of better intergrated GPUs on the MB and mini and folks have hammered them for that as well. Why do I need to get a MBP to play games, blah blah? Apple is stupid, blah blah. There was significant bitching about the Intel Mini vs the G4 mini in terms of graphics and the fact that aTV has a real GPU when the Mini doesn't.

Whether FW disappears on the Mini is debatable. But losing FW on the Mini to get better graphics is a good trade as opposed to staying with intel GMAs.

A tad agressive is right.

they are trying to tell manufacturers something.

And if the article about Apple positioning this as a business laptop is true, well, they don't need FW either.

I woud have preferred they had waited for a replacement, but, that's not always Apple.

I wouldn't be surprised to see some new products out that will get around this before too long.
post #1066 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

since the MB is clearly priced at the higher end purchaser - despite a number claims that it's most often purchased by joe the cleaner.
off you go - do your best !

yes i'll quit "whining" and purchase an MBP
when you provide one good reason i should do that

It's actually bought in huge numbers by students. Not the highest income group. But a group that sees a good deal.

Price isn't always the first consideration people make when they purchase something. There's a mix of values. I'm sure you know that when you make your own purchases.

People don't just buy Macbooks because of the way it looks, they are buying it because of the OS. Mostly, the OS.

If they have to pay more to get that, they often will. A couple of hundred bucks here and there isn't really that much in the overall expense sheet. If you plan to keep a machine for a couple of years or more, its actually very little.

For you, it may be different, as you already have equipment that needs FW, which the new machines don't have.

So you have to consider if you really need a new machine now, or not. If not, then you're fine. You don't HAVE to buy a machine just because new ones came out.

In business, new machines are bought every three years, because that's how long it takes to depreciate them. At that point, it costs more to keep a machine, then to get a new one. As the article I posted says, $1,500 is about the price where the whole thing pays off.
post #1067 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

m
yes but you'll notice that there's no USB connection on the unit
which means that you have to use a FW to USB adapter
(essentially the intelligence of the unit plays dumb and the host controls)
which you can do with a number of FW units

It does seem though, that most people prefer the sound of the mkII, which might be why it's still in the lineup.

I don't do much complex audio right now, so the Studio is fine for me, and otherwise, I still use Pro Tools, as I've been doing for years.
post #1068 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Knights View Post

How about calling the "new MetalBooks" "MacBricks"? It's shorter and links up with the "brick" conundrum prior to their release.

Mmm... it just doesn't sound sexy. 'Brick' is something you think of as sucking, or being non-functional. Like how Apple's software update 'bricked' jailbreaked iPhones. Not a great connotation.


Quote:
Incidentally, if Apple comes out with a low-end netbook, I suggest we dub it the MacBook Po'

'MacBook- Foodstamps Edition'? 'MacBook- Govt Cheese Edition'?

I shouldn't laugh. With the mother of all recessions on the way, that could describe a whole lotta ppl before it's through.

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post #1069 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It does seem though, that most people prefer the sound of the mkII, which might be why it's still in the lineup.

I don't do much complex audio right now, so the Studio is fine for me, and otherwise, I still use Pro Tools, as I've been doing for years.

people like the sound of the mkII more than... ? the mkIII ?
interesting - tell me more - is it just the pre-amps or the A/D convertors ?

I haven't seen any detailed reviews but i'm always keen on knowing
if they've gone cheap on either the A/D convertors or the pre-amps
(both of which won't have anything to do with FW performance)
post #1070 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It's actually bought in huge numbers by students. Not the highest income group. But a group that sees a good deal.

Price isn't always the first consideration people make when they purchase something. There's a mix of values. I'm sure you know that when you make your own purchases.

People don't just buy Macbooks because of the way it looks, they are buying it because of the OS. Mostly, the OS.

If they have to pay more to get that, they often will. A couple of hundred bucks here and there isn't really that much in the overall expense sheet. If you plan to keep a machine for a couple of years or more, its actually very little.

For you, it may be different, as you already have equipment that needs FW, which the new machines don't have.

So you have to consider if you really need a new machine now, or not. If not, then you're fine. You don't HAVE to buy a machine just because new ones came out.

In business, new machines are bought every three years, because that's how long it takes to depreciate them. At that point, it costs more to keep a machine, then to get a new one. As the article I posted says, $1,500 is about the price where the whole thing pays off.

i'd be actually interested to hear what "real" business people
have to say about the way this MB update has been done
and about purchasing apple products (hardware and software) and trying to keep them up to date.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

A tad agressive is right.
they are trying to tell manufacturers something.
And if the article about Apple positioning this as a business laptop is true, well, they don't need FW either.
I woud have preferred they had waited for a replacement, but, that's not always Apple.
I wouldn't be surprised to see some new products out that will get around this before too long.

i can tell you (from experience on very large, very high budget projects) that
1. just because a company's big (or makes a big profit) in no way means they do things well or the best they can
2. business is (should be) about communication, and you don't communicate to partners (read peripheral makers) by.... not communicating with them.

If Apple was serious about replacing FW then they'd do it properly - as in firstly come up with a replacement, then do a SJ "this is the next best thing" meeting, allow a period of overlap (arguably what their doing with the whitebooks - except there is no replacement...) and on the side (preferably earlier), warn the peripheral makers what's coming so that they can adapt quickly.

I know this is going to be flamed by the fanboys - but they'll take what they're given, make a little noise then still buy - either because they're locked in, or they still think Apple's cool...

However if there's anyone out there from a business that's ever considered buying a significant quantity of Macs (significant = whatever would seriously hurt your business if you had to replace them and the software with another brand.) Can you please tell us what you think of Apple's 'non-communicative' attitude... Does business have more or less confidence in Apple after these kinds of moves?

We're already heard from some schools in this thread...

Do we think Apple's doing themselves a service with this approach? OK it's nothing new, but at the same time as trying to break into the business market, they seem to be shooting themselves in the foot with their lack of communication.

You could simply respond that FW is irrelevant for business... or that MBs are irrelevant for business... but that would be avoiding the issue. The attitude towards FW shows Apple's way of doing product upgrades is hard to predict - which is the last thing any business needs at this point.

Or can large businesses have the confidence to invest heavily in Apple hard/software while Apple actively attempts to maintain a hard/software monopoly ? (Which makes all users all the more susceptible to product changes since there is no alternative without significant re-investment and wasted time.)
post #1071 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

people like the sound of the mkII more than... ? the mkIII ?
interesting - tell me more - is it just the pre-amps or the A/D convertors ?

I haven't seen any detailed reviews but i'm always keen on knowing
if they've gone cheap on either the A/D convertors or the pre-amps
(both of which won't have anything to do with FW performance)

Who can tell? I go through this in my audio groups. People like something, and they attribute it to different things, without understanding the circuitry.

I've been told it sounds a bit "warmer". That can mean several things. Without my taking one and testing it, I can't tell exactly what.
post #1072 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

i'd be actually interested to hear what "real" business people
have to say about the way this MB update has been done
and about purchasing apple products (hardware and software) and trying to keep them up to date.

I don't know what you mean by keeping them up to date. Most business don't try to keep a current product up to date. In fact, that's the last thing they want to do.

They don't want features they won't use. The more there are, the more problems there are.

Quote:
i can tell you (from experience on very large, very high budget projects) that
1. just because a company's big (or makes a big profit) in no way means they do things well or the best they can
2. business is (should be) about communication, and you don't communicate to partners (read peripheral makers) by.... not communicating with them.

If Apple was serious about replacing FW then they'd do it properly - as in firstly come up with a replacement, then do a SJ "this is the next best thing" meeting, allow a period of overlap (arguably what their doing with the whitebooks - except there is no replacement...) and on the side (preferably earlier), warn the peripheral makers what's coming so that they can adapt quickly.

I know this is going to be flamed by the fanboys - but they'll take what they're given, make a little noise then still buy - either because they're locked in, or they still think Apple's cool...

However if there's anyone out there from a business that's ever considered buying a significant quantity of Macs (significant = whatever would seriously hurt your business if you had to replace them and the software with another brand.) Can you please tell us what you think of Apple's 'non-communicative' attitude... Does business have more or less confidence in Apple after these kinds of moves?

We're already heard from some schools in this thread...

Do we think Apple's doing themselves a service with this approach? OK it's nothing new, but at the same time as trying to break into the business market, they seem to be shooting themselves in the foot with their lack of communication.

You could simply respond that FW is irrelevant for business... or that MBs are irrelevant for business... but that would be avoiding the issue. The attitude towards FW shows Apple's way of doing product upgrades is hard to predict - which is the last thing any business needs at this point.

Or can large businesses have the confidence to invest heavily in Apple hard/software while Apple actively attempts to maintain a hard/software monopoly ? (Which makes all users all the more susceptible to product changes since there is no alternative without significant re-investment and wasted time.)

Those are legitimate concerns.

But Apple goes its own way. Is it right or is it wrong? Well, it's not for us to say. We can only comment on what we think is best for US. The fact that Apple is very successful the past several years shows us that.

Remember, that while Apple may be positioning itself slightly more for large business than they have before, Jobs said (right after he came back to Apple and was asked about big business) "The enterprise is not our customer"?

When businesses buy into Apple, they know that, and shrug it off. If they can't deal with it, they don't. It's that simple.

It does seem that Apple is slowly moving back into that space. A couple of years ago, Apple had 2% of the business market (in the USA). Now, it's 4.5% That's small, but it's more than doubled. It will continue to increase as students graduate and move into the work force. Everything I read in the business journals say that the employees are taking greater control of the equipment they use, and that IT, is bowing to the pressure. With about 50% of college students buying either Macbooks or Macbook Pros for school, that trend will only increase. In addition, almost a third of professors are also using Macs. That's been increasing as well.

I think that the idea behind Snow Leopard is partly due to the business question. Apple wants to streamline the OS to make it more easily upgradable, and to work better on todays increasingly core-centric machines. business, much more so than consumers is interested in efficiency. This will go a long way towards that.

It's certainly correct that very big companies screw up. We only have to look around us to see the environment that we are in economically to know that's true.

I do also think that Apple is looking further down the road where FW becomes unimportant for the vast majority of users. That's certainly tough for those who need it now. But, while I've said that the MBP thing is tiring, it's also true. I can, in the end, only go back to what I said earlier. If you really don't need a new machine, then don't buy one. People don't need excess to what works well. That doesn't mean that people won't want the coolest thing around (even though they're loath to admit to it).

However, in business, we buy what we do need. If we can't buy a Macbook, then we buy a Macbook Pro, like it or not. I often would have preferred to buy smaller, less expensive, towers from Apple, but they didn't make them, so I bought Powermacs (we sold the business before the switch to Intel). My machines at home are now 24" iMacs for my family, who finds them to be fine, but I'm looking forward to a new Mac Pro. If they had something smaller, I might buy it, but they don't. It's either that, or move to Windows, which I won't do.

You have to decide what's most important to you, and do that.

In the long run, the money isn't that important to a business. If the size and weight do matter, that's another thing, but if you are lugging much other equipment around, as I often had to, then the difference between the MB and the MBP is nothing.

Really, all the other arguments are irrelevant to you.
post #1073 of 1657
At the company I work for, we just got 7 of the new MacBooks and I have been dealing with the lack of firewire on them in order to image them to get them ready for users. The first roadblock I hit was that all our boot drives that host the disk images are single interface FW drives. Luckily we have 2 2.5" USB2 drives and I've partitioned them and turned them into boot drives that can boot the MacBooks (pretty fast too). OK, so now I can create and deploy images from a local drive.

Now the files transfer when deploying to a new user. I used to use Migration assistant. i still use Migration Assistant but now via Gigabit ethernet. Fast and no problems! Direct connect crossover works great.

Some notes: Holding the T key down on start up does nothing. I was hoping for some USB target disk mode but no luck. We have some FW cameras we have not found a way to get them to work with the new systems. Luckily we have some freelance workstations people can hop on and capture the video from. You smudge up the camera when opening it. At least it's easy to clean.
post #1074 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

i can tell you (from experience on very large, very high budget projects) that
1. just because a company's big (or makes a big profit) in no way means they do things well or the best they can
2. business is (should be) about communication, and you don't communicate to partners (read peripheral makers) by.... not communicating with them.

If Apple was serious about replacing FW then they'd do it properly - as in firstly come up with a replacement, then do a SJ "this is the next best thing" meeting, allow a period of overlap (arguably what their doing with the whitebooks - except there is no replacement...) and on the side (preferably earlier), warn the peripheral makers what's coming so that they can adapt quickly.

I know this is going to be flamed by the fanboys - but they'll take what they're given, make a little noise then still buy - either because they're locked in, or they still think Apple's cool...

However if there's anyone out there from a business that's ever considered buying a significant quantity of Macs (significant = whatever would seriously hurt your business if you had to replace them and the software with another brand.) Can you please tell us what you think of Apple's 'non-communicative' attitude... Does business have more or less confidence in Apple after these kinds of moves?

We're already heard from some schools in this thread...

Do we think Apple's doing themselves a service with this approach? OK it's nothing new, but at the same time as trying to break into the business market, they seem to be shooting themselves in the foot with their lack of communication.

You could simply respond that FW is irrelevant for business... or that MBs are irrelevant for business... but that would be avoiding the issue. The attitude towards FW shows Apple's way of doing product upgrades is hard to predict - which is the last thing any business needs at this point.

Or can large businesses have the confidence to invest heavily in Apple hard/software while Apple actively attempts to maintain a hard/software monopoly ? (Which makes all users all the more susceptible to product changes since there is no alternative without significant re-investment and wasted time.)


Extremely well said.

The comeback, of course, is that Apple isn't really interested in the business market, "Steve even said so", etc. etc. But I strongly suspect that Steve's comments vis a vis the business market are another one of those things Steve says that's "true, 'til it's not true." Kinda like how no one wants to watch video on an iPod.

Assuming that Apple's Mac marketshare continues to increase like it has, at some point down the road, Apple runs out of well-heeled consumers to sell to... they hit a wall in terms of Mac marketshare (very likely in the US long before anywhere else).

What then? Do they stagnate in the PC market, which is a huge percentage of Apple's overall revenue, or do they want to continue to be a growth company? I strongly suspect the latter. So okay, in that case... do they then go into lower pricepoints to grab more consumers? Steve seems like he'd rather contract ebola than do that. It goes against so many of his cherished biases.

What's the alternative to that? Biz/enterprise. Yeah, it's generally a price-sensitive market, but not all businesses think the same way. Some have expressed an interest to moving to Macs even now, at current quite-a-lot-higher-than-Dell prices. Steve will likely have to lower prices anyway, no matter what, but he might be able to avoid the 'commodization' trap, while still growing the Mac market strongly.

So, things kinda point towards Apple getting into the business/enterprise market in a big way... someday. We're just not quite there yet.

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post #1075 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Extremely well said.

The comeback, of course, is that Apple isn't really interested in the business market, "Steve even said so", etc. etc. But I strongly suspect that Steve's comments vis a vis the business market are another one of those things Steve says that's "true, 'til it's not true." Kinda like how no one wants to watch video on an iPod.

Assuming that Apple's Mac marketshare continues to increase like it has, at some point down the road, Apple runs out of well-heeled consumers to sell to... they hit a wall in terms of Mac marketshare (very likely in the US long before anywhere else).

What then? Do they stagnate in the PC market, which is a huge percentage of Apple's overall revenue, or do they want to continue to be a growth company? I strongly suspect the latter. So okay, in that case... do they then go into lower pricepoints to grab more consumers? Steve seems like he'd rather contract ebola than do that. It goes against so many of his cherished biases.

What's the alternative to that? Biz/enterprise. Yeah, it's generally a price-sensitive market, but not all businesses think the same way. Some have expressed an interest to moving to Macs even now, at current quite-a-lot-higher-than-Dell prices. Steve will likely have to lower prices anyway, no matter what, but he might be able to avoid the 'commodization' trap, while still growing the Mac market strongly.

So, things kinda point towards Apple getting into the business/enterprise market in a big way... someday. We're just not quite there yet.

...

This is why Apple is inching back into the market. They are doing things that will appeal to them, and obviously do, without making an all out turnabout.

Apple wants business customers these days, but more on their own terms than the businesses terms. They seem to be more interested in doing this in the level of the OS, rather than at the level of the hardware, though, the MB does seem to have moved in that direction, as have the iMacs, which are also finding favor in business, after business said they really didn't want an all in one. The Mini is doing very well in specialized markets where the computer is not actually being used directly.

So Apple is very much indeed in business, one way or the other.

As the consuer and business markets continue to converge, we'll see more of it.

Also, business does not, as a rule, buy the least expensive machines. I read in ComputerWorld a short while ago, that business buys desktops that are about $1,000, not including the monitor. They buy laptops for about $1,500.
post #1076 of 1657
Tesing the USB 2.0 on the new Macbooks

Quote:
Originally Posted by barefeats

HardMac broke the story that the 'late 2008' MacBook Pro has improved USB 2.0 speed. We posted their link on our Quick Takes but want to "second the motion" by posting our own findings.





Really wish we could have seen some latency tests as well.
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post #1077 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Tesing the USB 2.0 on the new Macbooks



Really wish we could have seen some latency tests as well.

Don't forget that a lot of latency problems are OS problems. These are not realtime OS's.
post #1078 of 1657
David Pogue has revealed that he had the opportunity to personally speak to Steve Jobs and question the decision to leave FW off the MacBook.

And?

Although Apple officially STILL remains silent on the issue, an issue that has provoked more uproar and for a longer period of time than any other techology decision from the company that I can remember, it has become very clear in my mind that Firewire is DEAD.

I believe Apple is making a tremendous error of judgement.
post #1079 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

David Pogue has revealed that he had the opportunity to personally speak to Steve Jobs and question the decision to leave FW off the MacBook.

And?

Although Apple officially STILL remains silent on the issue, an issue that has provoked more uproar and for a longer period of time than any other techology decision from the company that I can remember, it has become very clear in my mind that Firewire is DEAD.

I believe Apple is making a tremendous error of judgement.


Link?


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post #1080 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

So Apple is very much indeed in [the] business [market], one way or the other.

As the consumer and business markets continue to converge, we'll see more of it.


Which makes otwayross' comments on Apple's uncommunicative nature, unpredictable product upgrades, and hardware monopoly quite pertinent. All those things tend to drive business customers away.

Totally agree with your comment about how "Apple wants business customers, but very much on Apple's terms and not on the businesses' terms", though. One of the better summations I've heard.

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