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Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire - Page 30

post #1161 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

I don't know how to put this without repeating myself. HANA needs guaranteed QoS.

No. HANA is pushing a technological solution and saying everything else is bad. The need is to distribute HD. How you do so varies.

Quote:
Why don't you just say 'Gigabit ethernet guarantees real-time HD content delivery without drops'? Why hedge your words with 'more than capable'. If current ethernet standards and equipment can do what HANA needs, just say so.

Since when is "more than capable" a hedge. A hedge is "GigE should be able to deliver HD without drops".

Quote:
The fact that you, your brother or your best friend has a full blown computer with ample resources outputting content to a HD TV panel over Gigabit ethernet does not make it the solution to the issues that have been put here.

Mmmmkay. Just because it's been done is not proof that it can be done...

But hey, just because companies are building Media Centers, Media Center Extenders and GigE Video Routers doesn't mean HD over IP has any future path...it has to be FW since only it has QoS.

Except that there are layer 2 and layer 3 QoS standards for ethernet. 802.1P/Q and ToS/Diff. Draft N devices implement 802.11e for wireless and WMM.

Yea and verily these devices exist. While QOS tags have been iffy due to consumer and legacy devices not understanding 802.1p QoS tags (and doing odd things) that situation gets better every year as older switches get replaced with current models that implement QoS.

So...you don't need a "full blown computer" as much as an up to date switch and NICs on your settop box.

Quote:
I thought the white paper listed here was an interesting read. Everybody is free to make their own conclusions.

Again, a white paper written by a TI Firewire sales guy. Yes, draw your own conclusion.

Quote:
I brought up the subject of HANA as an example because somebody said that firewire was not good (or a good option - I can't remember now) for moving/streaming A/V content. It was only an example to support my post.

A singular example thus far. No one said that Firewire was "not good" just that the consumer market has opted to choose its competitors (aka it'd dead jim).

Quote:
I'm not a proponent of HANA. I don't even know if it will get off the ground and I said so right from the start. However, from a technological viewpoint it does raise some issues for the people that say FW now has no reason to exist.

I still say FW has no single competitor out there that is better for a broad spectrum of uses. I haven't seen anything here to make me think otherwise.

Except that a single competitor is not a requirement to deliver HD, connect to drives, etc. USB, ethernet and hdmi has beaten FW in the market.

You may not be a "proponent" of HANA but you sure take thier word for why FW is great and everything else suxxors.

Quote:
That white paper raised an interesting point on the cost of silicon for USB3.0. If that proved to be correct Apple may be missing a good opportunity to really push newer FW versions. Not that it matters much now as I think Apple already considers FW as legacy.

Yah...that translates into "You should by TI silicon and not Intel silicon". Except that folks will need to have USB3 silicon in their box anyway...
post #1162 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

I have a bias because I like their products. Marketing always has an influence but it doesn't help a product that sucks at its core.

that's interesting, because Apple's just done a pretty good job on a lot of people
convincing them that having a slower CPU, lower performance, less connectivity, case rigidity that you didn't need and a higher price is worth it

...but you saw straight through that marketing didn't you

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Yeah, just because they were penned by a TI firewire sales guy means it must be the absolute truth.

right. so because you don't have any technically sound rebuttal of their points
you're just going to call it 'marketing'

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

It matters because one of the FW proponents brought it up. Do you even read these posts?

only the ones that come from people who need more than USB2

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Bitter much?

yeah totally bitter, i'm currently in therapy over this thread...
i have NO fun winding you up either

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Yep, Apple sucks. Oh well...I guess it's time for you to move on to greener vistas.

vista... i've heard that from you before... now if i could just remember where...
whatever

oh right, you're trying to tell the world that if they don't agree with everything that Apple does
then they should move on...

dammit when those marketing guys do their job they sure do it well !
post #1163 of 1657
While we're talking about standards and obsolescence, we might make a short digression into the chips Apple is about to move to, Nehalem, or i7, as Intel is calling it.

That chip and chipset no longer supports (for PC users as well as Mac users), the PS/2 connector, (E)IDE parallel drives, parallel ports of any kind, serial ports other than SATA and USB, etc. I'm not sure yet, but I don't think they support PCI either, for a secondary bus.

People will have to either get rid of their current devices, or, if they have a computer that will allow it (as more PC's don't), get cards that support these shortly obsolete standards.

Prepare!
post #1164 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Again, a white paper written by a TI Firewire sales guy. Yes, draw your own conclusion.

i'm afraid i'm going to have to ask you for proof on that "written by a TI FIrewire sales guy" comment

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Yah...that translates into "You should by TI silicon and not Intel silicon". Except that folks will need to have USB3 silicon in their box anyway...

Yah... it makes a big difference to the consumer whether they pay for twice as much silicon in an overheating notebook that has non-proven speed or the same amount in intelligent peripherals

I just wonder, perhaps USB3 will claim the 4.8 Gbps and achieve a fraction of that..

no. definitely not. we should totally assume that USB3 will definitely have 4.8 Gbps
just like USB2 totally hits 480 Mbps today \

no even better.
since we all know that USB3 will need more silicon just to get close to the claimed speeds we should just assume that the marketing guys will not run the show
and that notebook makers won't just stick USB3 ports on their machines without sufficient silicon to get the speed... no they'd never do that...
post #1165 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

i'm afraid i'm going to have to ask you for proof on that "written by a TI FIrewire sales guy" comment



Yah... it makes a big difference to the consumer whether they pay for twice as much silicon in an overheating notebook that has non-proven speed or the same amount in intelligent peripherals

I just wonder, perhaps USB3 will claim the 4.8 Gbps and achieve a fraction of that..

no. definitely not. we should totally assume that USB3 will definitely have 4.8 Gbps
just like USB2 totally hits 480 Mbps today \

no even better.
since we all know that USB3 will need more silicon just to get close to the claimed speeds we should just assume that the marketing guys will not run the show
and that notebook makers won't just stick USB3 ports on their machines without sufficient silicon to get the speed... no they'd never do that...

No bus ever delivers 100% of its claimed bandwidth. It also depends on the purpose it's being used for.

For example, FW 400 delivers, at most about 42MB/s. USB 2 delivers about 36MB/s.

USB 3 at 4.8 Gbs will likely deliver about two thirds that in practice, with it's improvements. FW 3.2 Gb/s will likely deliver about 85%.

No major difference in practice, though USB 3 will likely be a bit better.
post #1166 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

No. HANA is pushing a technological solution and saying everything else is bad. The need is to distribute HD. How you do so varies.

HANA simply offered information on why it chose firewire. It's not saying everything else is bad at all. Just why other technologies got ruled out.


Quote:
Since when is "more than capable" a hedge. A hedge is "GigE should be able to deliver HD without drops".

It's a hedge because in my book 'more than capable' means 'has more than enough capacity to do something'. What is doesn't mean is that in spite of its capacity to do something that it actually will do it when required.



Quote:
Mmmmkay. Just because it's been done is not proof that it can be done...

More hedging. Try changing 'can' for 'will' in that line and we'll be getting somewhere.

Quote:
But hey, just because companies are building Media Centers, Media Center Extenders and GigE Video Routers doesn't mean HD over IP has any future path...it has to be FW since only it has QoS.

Not at all. However, for HANA that situation is what they want to avoid. Imagine this situation: You are watching a film in your living room. You decide to finish watching it in your bedroom. How would you accomplish this in the scenario you just outlined?

Quote:
Except that there are layer 2 and layer 3 QoS standards for ethernet. 802.1P/Q and ToS/Diff. Draft N devices implement 802.11e for wireless and WMM.

Yea and verily these devices exist. While QOS tags have been iffy due to consumer and legacy devices not understanding 802.1p QoS tags (and doing odd things) that situation gets better every year as older switches get replaced with current models that implement QoS.

So...you don't need a "full blown computer" as much as an up to date switch and NICs on your settop box.

So, you admit that QoS on ethernet is not a real solution to the problem yet. And those Media PCs you just mentioned really are full blown computers.


Quote:
You may not be a "proponent" of HANA but you sure take thier word for why FW is great and everything else suxxors.

I only mentioned HANA as an example to support my post. I even said in that same post that I doubt HANA will get off the ground. However, from a technological standpoint HANA throws up some very valid considerations that I have mentioned here.
post #1167 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It isn't that is isn't necessary. It's that it isn't AS necessary as it used to be.

So, yes, pros are more likely to want it than consumers. Most audio devices use USB 2. A few use FW. The main difference is bandwidth.

Mel this is simply not true.
Even you were scrambling to find me examples of USB2 interfaces a few days ago
and you only found 1 that was at 'pro' standard
now you're saying "most" ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

When we look at the MOTO II vs the III, we see the difference is mostly bandwidth between the interfaces. Otherwise, the units work pretty much the same, other than the features added in the upgrade.

again not true, number of channels, latency, performance issues - not to mention heat - anyone who thinks that multi-tracking audio via USB2 is a pleasure has been putting their nose too close to their overheating notebook vent for too long

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Most consumers devices that had FW are moving to USB 2. That's a simple fact.

and without backup that's a simple opinion (and a wrong one if you look at the facts)

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Most new camcorders, once the exclusive user of FW, use USB 2.

Even Apple stopped iPods from using FW years ago. Certainly one of the biggest consumer FW product areas.

these are old arguments that have even been deconstructed by Mr USB2 himself
who used faulty arguments to try and say that firewire is on the decline
(but as he helpfully pointed out still in the majority)

even the statistics he used (seen here in Macworld) say that
"In terms of deployment, FireWire's peak year may be 2008,
with decline setting in by the end of 2009, these analysts warn."

so we haven't seen the peak yet - it's not recorded
and the decline is being predicted - again it hasn't arrived or been measured

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

All I can advise people to do, for their own comfort in the future, is to buy a device based on what it does for them, and in the case of two competing devices that are about equal, buy the USB 2 equipped one.

so you'd advise buying old technology? why?
this USB2 advice only applies for people with computers without another more modern, intelligent, faster connection (ie late 2008 macbook owners)

oh and yes it could apply to those amongst us with no need for anything more powerful...
post #1168 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post



I don't think you understood the question. This was the dialog, starting with your statement, and then my question:

Are you saying that all of your computers and devices have Power Over Ethernet?

You answered a question about that, with a statement about FW.

Sorry, I misread that. Thanks for the links I'll read them tomorrow. I just wanted to mention quickly why I mentioned the power over ethernet thing.

A couple of months back and friend showed up with LinkSys wireless access point. It weighed a ton and was in a metal casing. I checked online to get an idea of what it was exactly and see if he could actually use it. I think I found it online and its price was something like $1200 and I distinctly remember a reference to Power over Ethernet. As I was short for time I couldn't spend more time with him and I don't know what he eventually did with the thing.

I'll try to check on it. I think it had 200 in the name.

I did a quick check. There seems to be a lot of stuff with Power over Ethernet. I don't know if this link will expire but here goes
post #1169 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

Mel this is simply not true.
Even you were scrambling to find me examples of USB2 interfaces a few days ago
and you only found 1 that was at 'pro' standard
now you're saying "most" ???

I wasn't scrambling. Before I got a chance to look, Vinea posted a half dozen.

But this is the difference between the true "pro" and those who aren't, but who like to think they are. Besides, what do we even mean by "pro"?

Plenty of audio interfaces use USB 2. You have to remember that most audio isn't 16 channel. It's two, and there are plenty of those in USB 2.


Quote:
again not true, number of channels, latency, performance issues - not to mention heat - anyone who thinks that multi-tracking audio via USB2 is a pleasure has been putting their nose too close to their overheating notebook vent for too long

check the specs yourself. Only the total number of channels is different. And most people won't be using those number of channels anyway.

Quote:
and without backup that's a simple opinion (and a wrong one if you look at the facts)

Without backup? What are you referring to? Just look to the devices out there. You will see for yourself. I can't be expected to list every device around, and neither can you.

Quote:
these are old arguments that have even been deconstructed by Mr USB2 himself
who used faulty arguments to try and say that firewire is on the decline
(but as he helpfully pointed out still in the majority)

even the statistics he used (seen here in Macworld) say that
"In terms of deployment, FireWire's peak year may be 2008,
with decline setting in by the end of 2009, these analysts warn."

so we haven't seen the peak yet - it's not recorded
and the decline is being predicted - again it hasn't arrived or been measured

Nonsense! Amazons top camcorder selling list has already been posted. Most of them use USB 2. No D-SLR's use FW anymore, as far as I know. One medium format back does.

Most external HDDs use USB 2 alone. Network drives, which are becoming more popular, use Ethernet.

MP3 players, and videoplayers, use USB 2. HDTV's have HDMI and sometimes USB 2 for flash media.

Where should I stop?

Quote:
so you'd advise buying old technology? why?
this USB2 advice only applies for people with computers without another more modern, intelligent, faster connection (ie late 2008 macbook owners)

I'd advise buying technology that will be supported for sure, rather than technology that won't be supported in the future.

Quote:
oh and yes it could apply to those amongst us with no need for anything more powerful...

Please! I covered you numerous times. If you really need more POWERFUL technology, then buy a you know what.

But, by complaining about the MB, you show that you DON'T need more POWERFUL technology, you just want something newer, and cooler.
post #1170 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

HANA simply offered information on why it chose firewire. It's not saying everything else is bad at all. Just why other technologies got ruled out.

Riiight.

Quote:
It's a hedge because in my book 'more than capable' means 'has more than enough capacity to do something'. What is doesn't mean is that in spite of its capacity to do something that it actually will do it when required.

Geez. Fine. GigE can and has pushed HD streams without drops.

Quote:
More hedging. Try changing 'can' for 'will' in that line and we'll be getting somewhere.

It's not hedging...it's called sarcasm. Will be done? Surely it will be done because it has been done.

More done than HANA since that hasn't been anything more than a tech demo.

Quote:
Not at all. However, for HANA that situation is what they want to avoid. Imagine this situation: You are watching a film in your living room. You decide to finish watching it in your bedroom. How would you accomplish this in the scenario you just outlined?

Oh, I dunno. Hit stop in the living room. Go into the bedroom. Bring up the movie in the bedroom and press yes when prompted "start where you left off?". What on earth does this scenario have to do with FW?

Zero.

Quote:
So, you admit that QoS on ethernet is not a real solution to the problem yet. And those Media PCs you just mentioned really are full blown computers.

No. QoS on ethernet is a solution today if you buy devices that support QoS on ethernet today. Which is a hell of a lot more products than support Firewire over coax or HANA. I find it hilarious that you would be all uppity about a solution that exists while crowing about a solution that doesn't exist yet.

The media center PCs are full blown computers because they are media servers. Where pray tell are you streaming HD video from? From your single DVD player? Riiight. That's really useful. Your 300 disc blu-ray player? Might be nice when they build one. Oddly, media center PCs are cheaper.

The media center extenders are...set top boxes. Like a 360, PS3, aTV, etc.

Quote:
I only mentioned HANA as an example to support my post. I even said in that same post that I doubt HANA will get off the ground. However, from a technological standpoint HANA throws up some very valid considerations that I have mentioned here.

From a technological standpoint it seems that HANA is there for TI to push Firewire for some oddball reason. And why would you so value the opinion of something that isn't likely to get off the ground anyway?

That white paper isn't any more interesting than a TI white paper outlining the glory of DLP while dissing LCD and LCOS.
post #1171 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Please! I covered you numerous times. If you really need more POWERFUL technology, then buy a you know what.

But, by complaining about the MB, you show that you DON'T need more POWERFUL technology, you just want something newer, and cooler.

i don't need powerful (that's what my MP is for) i just an update of what i've got
but with the problems fixed - the main ones being overheating and a flickering screen (common MB probs)
post #1172 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

i don't need powerful (that's what my MP is for) i just an update of what i've got
but with the problems fixed - the main ones being overheating and a flickering screen (common MB probs)

I was responding to your use of the word powerful. I assumed that you used it because you meant it.
post #1173 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


I'll provide a few links to more current problems with compatibility problems here and there. Finding 15 year old articles isn't easy.

One problem has always been the poor physical layer specs. Some of these problems show that.

http://www.rme-audio.com/english/tec...fw800alert.htm

Read down to the last two sections to see what I'm talking about with command structures and such (meaning protocols). Too much was left in the various manufacturers hands. It took years until many finally agreed on what to do.

http://www.synthetic-ap.com/products...eosupport.html

This is an interesting thread to read. It shows some of the FW problems we experienced on our Macs.

http://discussions.apple.com/thread....6860&tstart=12

Check the very bottom of this page.

http://eshop.macsales.com/Descriptio...softraid3.html

These problems were not supposed to happen at all, we were assured, but they did.

https://rainrecording.co.uk/support/article?id=109

Again, this is not supposed to happen, but the lax standards do allow it.

While I can't find early technical articles now, there are enough articles in Google about FW compatibility problems to show it's real.

I've got to get to bed now but I couldn't resist checking those links out. Not one of them has anything to do with the standard. They touch on communications problems between TI and peripheral makers in one case, propietary design problems in another, poor chipset design in another etc.

Not one of them claims that the firewire standard is the root cause of any firewire problems.

As I haven't read the standard I can't really say if firewire standards can be considered lax or not. However, I can't find anything online that suggests that firewire is insufficiently designed/defined etc from a standards perspective.
post #1174 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Oh, I dunno. Hit stop in the living room. Go into the bedroom. Bring up the movie in the bedroom and press yes when prompted "start where you left off?". What on earth does this scenario have to do with FW?

Zero.

I don't have a media centre so I'm interested in seeing how your setup plays out. You have a media centre in your living room that is connected to the TV in your living room. Am I right on that point or is it somewhere else?

If I'm right, your media centre is connected to the TV right next to it (it doesn't matter by which means). How are you reaching the other TVs in your house?

This is FW/HANA related. It doesn't matter if you actually have a media centre or not I just want to hear the theory.
post #1175 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

these are old arguments that have even been deconstructed by Mr USB2 himself
who used faulty arguments to try and say that firewire is on the decline
(but as he helpfully pointed out still in the majority)

Yes, virginia, in the real world dropping from 85% to 77% is a decline. When you do that in a single year...it's called free fall...and that was 2 years ago.

Today even HD camcorders come with USB2 only...

Quote:
even the statistics he used (seen here in Macworld) say that
"In terms of deployment, FireWire's peak year may be 2008,
with decline setting in by the end of 2009, these analysts warn."

so we haven't seen the peak yet - it's not recorded
and the decline is being predicted - again it hasn't arrived or been measured

The decline was predicted over a year ago. With the removal of FW on the MB and Jobs' comments it has become almost a certainty.
post #1176 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I was responding to your use of the word powerful. I assumed that you used it because you meant it.

powerful as in the interface... not the computer
i'm trying to find a word to describe the interface
which covers a combination of speed and intelligence

ironically (or maybe not) my word of choice when used on an intelligent interface
describes what your computer needs less of...
post #1177 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

i'm trying to find a word to describe the interface

Just grab a thesaurus. The words that come to mind are versatile and robust.


On the other hand, USB brings to mind ubiquitous and inexpensive, which usually wins.
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post #1178 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Yes, virginia, in the real world dropping from 85% to 77% is a decline. When you do that in a single year...it's called free fall...and that was 2 years ago.

Today even HD camcorders come with USB2 only...

The decline was predicted over a year ago. With the removal of FW on the MB and Jobs' comments it has become almost a certainty.

yes sherlock - but a decline in only one area of the overall market
why don't you pick just one brand and use that to extrapolate a worldwide trend... oh wait you did !

so you used only part of the research (the camcorder part)
research which had overall conclusions stating that FW was not in decline... but might end up in decline over 2 years in the future
which you used to go and predict the absolute death of firewire
an interface which the same manufacturer you have been using to predict it's death - has just put on it's current flagship offering

and no, one single model of one manufacturer's product line - which still uses that interface in it's latest products
will not be enough to topple an interface technology which reaches far beyond personal computers
(much less notebooks)

if you're not too scared of being swamped by marketing people
have a look at the 1394 website and see what other uses it has...

oh wait what's that on the front page?
Sony's flagship video camera ?
gee those guys are idiots - they're just about to release a camera with firewire on it - dang at least it's only at pre-order stage
they should have consulted vinea first.... pfff sony's obviously going to hit the dust pretty soon
post #1179 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Just grab a thesaurus. The words that come to mind are versatile and robust.


On the other hand, USB brings to mind ubiquitous and inexpensive, which usually wins.

not quite \
versatile is one aspect, robustness is another (both describe USB and FW)
but neither of those cover speed and intelligence (p2p)
try again...

ubiquitous and inexpensive - that sounds like windows... and that obviously hasn't won you over
post #1180 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

why don't you pick just one brand and use that to extrapolate a worldwide trend.
[...]
oh wait what's that on the front page?
Sony's flagship video camera ?
gee those guys are idiots - they're just about to release a camera with firewire on it - dang at least it's only at pre-order stage
they should have consulted vinea first.... pfff sony's obviously going to hit the dust pretty soon

That is not a consumer-grade camera, and it's MiniDV.

Now, what was that about one brandthough you choose one model from one brandand extrapolating a trend?
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post #1181 of 1657
oh shoot
another company has turned belly up by choosing firewire for it's top miniDV model
we've got our work cut out convincing these guys that they're headed down the wrong road
how could so many big companies keep making this same mistake?
post #1182 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

not quite \
versatile is one aspect, robustness is another (both describe USB and FW)
but neither of those cover speed and intelligence (p2p)
try again...

ubiquitous and inexpensive - that sounds like windows... and that obviously hasn't won you over

1) I got my MCSE a couple times over because of the ubiquity of Windows.

2) In comparison to FW, I wouldn't call USB versatile or robust.

3) If the words common words fast and intelligent don't work for you make up your own. After all, all words are made up. If you want a single word to descirbe something as fast and smart, then how about velocituitive?
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post #1183 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) I got my MCSE a couple times over because of the ubiquity of Windows.

2) In comparison to FW, I wouldn't call USB versatile or robust.

3) If the words common words of r fast and intelligent don't work for you make your own. After all, all words are made up. If you want a single word to descirbe something as fast and smart, then how about velocituitive?

i like it
post #1184 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

oh shoot
another company has turned belly up by choosing firewire for it's top miniDV model
we've got our work cut out convincing these guys that they're headed down the wrong road
how could so many big companies keep making this same mistake?

Again, you are finding cameras that the average MB user isn't likely to buy.
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post #1185 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That is not a consumer-grade camera, and it's MiniDV.

Now, what was that about one brandthough you choose one model from one brandand extrapolating a trend?


arrrrrgghhhhh somebody help
this is an epidemic of monumental proportions !!!

not only do we have a financial crisis but all our electronic companies are choosing to release new models
using dying technology

ps spot the irony here (and i'm not talking about my sarcasm...)
post #1186 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Again, you are finding cameras that the average MB user isn't likely to buy.

good point. i'm being silly - i'll stop straight away.
firewire's dead anyway.
post #1187 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

arrrrrgghhhhh somebody help
this is an epidemic of monumental proportions !!!

not only do we have a financial crisis but all our electronic companies are choosing to release new models
using dying technology

ps spot the irony here (and i'm not talking about my sarcasm...)

The ProHD is not a consumer-grade camera! It sucks that FW has been removed, but put the MB into the context of who is Apple sell almost all their MBs to. FW is not dead, but it's non-existent to the average consumer. It's a shame that Apple didn't market it better and more cheaply, and that they didn't make the 400 port interface compatible with the 800+ port interface without an physical adapter. But for the consumer market which has mostly moved away from MiniDV, IEE1394 is an dying interface. At least there are still options for a new, cheap Mac notebook if you want FW400.


Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

good point. i'm being silly - i'll stop straight away.
firewire's dead anyway.

Now you're being sardonic (and I'm not talking about sarcasm...)
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #1188 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

I've got to get to bed now but I couldn't resist checking those links out. Not one of them has anything to do with the standard. They touch on communications problems between TI and peripheral makers in one case, propietary design problems in another, poor chipset design in another etc.

Not one of them claims that the firewire standard is the root cause of any firewire problems.

As I haven't read the standard I can't really say if firewire standards can be considered lax or not. However, I can't find anything online that suggests that firewire is insufficiently designed/defined etc from a standards perspective.

Perhaps you don't see it because you don't get the purpose of a standard. The purpose is to assure that parts made by different manufacturers will all exist without incompatibilities, which is something FW never had, either from the beginning, or now.
We don't hear of anywhere near these many problems with USB, we hear of pretty much none with Ethernet. We hear of pretty much none with SATA.

But, I understand, you have a device that needs FW, and the new MB doesn't have it, so you are frustrated.
post #1189 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

powerful as in the interface... not the computer
i'm trying to find a word to describe the interface
which covers a combination of speed and intelligence

ironically (or maybe not) my word of choice when used on an intelligent interface
describes what your computer needs less of...

Ok. but it doesn't matter whether your computer is a five year old model, or one that will come out next year, it will still have vastly more power than needed. so will the devices on the market. The chips inside them have what they need to do the job. FW isn't needed for that to cut down on the processing power. CPU power has become the cheapest part of any device, by far.

What's your point in this? Where every device that can be connected, and needs to have a minimum of intelligence to function on a media network, already has that intelligence, the network doesn't need anything over what a network already provides, which is basically routing control, precedence control, and collision control.

All of this is already taken care of.

If you read the specs of Apple's own equipment, such as the aTv, the Airport Express, Airport Extreme, etc., you will see that all of the networking involving media files and distribution is being done.

By the way, as of now, Apple's store is down because of an update. Wonder what's going on.
post #1190 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

oh shoot
another company has turned belly up by choosing firewire for it's top miniDV model
we've got our work cut out convincing these guys that they're headed down the wrong road
how could so many big companies keep making this same mistake?

I own a couple of SL2's and an H1 as well. By no means are these cameras involved in this discussion.

We are talking about consumer cameras, and these are anything but.

As I've now said several times, professional equipment like this will be keeping this interface for a while to come. But then, while I know plenty of people who have these, I know of only one who uses it with a Macbook.
post #1191 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

arrrrrgghhhhh somebody help
this is an epidemic of monumental proportions !!!

not only do we have a financial crisis but all our electronic companies are choosing to release new models
using dying technology

ps spot the irony here (and i'm not talking about my sarcasm...)

Why don't you stick to our discussion, and pick cameras under about $750? That's already on the high side for consumer camcorders today? If you really find it neccessary, go to $1,000.

But you have to list all the models from that company that DON'T have FW as well. Picking one or two misses the point entirely. And try to find something that isn't about to be discontinued.
post #1192 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Why don't you stick to our discussion, and pick cameras under about $750? That's already on the high side for consumer camcorders today? If you really find it neccessary, go to $1,000.

But you have to list all the models from that company that DON'T have FW as well. Picking one or two misses the point entirely. And try to find something that isn't about to be discontinued.

dons flame proof suit

ok so let's summarizzzzzze...people here are arguing that:
- firewire is dead
- camcorders are moving towards USB
- firewire is a technology which is in decline
- firewire can easily be replaced by USB2 since CPU power has increased dramatically
- the majority of camcorders are USB (!?)
- the majority of audio peripherals are USB (!?)
- the fact that Apple left it off one notebook model is a sure sign for the whole market (!?)
- USB 3 will replace firewire
- Esata replaces firewire
- GigE will replace firewire
- USB3 replaces firewire
- USB2 replaces firewire (!!?)
- firewire will replace firewire (just seeing if you're awake)
- they don't (personally) need firewire (my favourite)
- battery power is a constraint

but at the same time people are arguing that
- apple only represents a small portion of the consumer market (i think the words were "microsoft dominates the market")
- the consumer market does not buy expensive equipment (eg camcorders over $750 are on the high side apparently)
- that the release of one single model of apple notebook computer (despite the "lack of domination" point) is indicative for the entire market
- that with future technologies (USB3) while attempting to transfer more date at 10x the current rate, we'll be fine in terms of CPU and heat release rates.
- any sound arguments indicating that FW might have a technological edge over current or near future tech is labelled 'marketing'
- any arguments that FW architecture might not be able to be replaced are met with guarantees of future CPU power over non-proven connection methods

yet what we also see/know is that:
- firewire is still the choice of professionals (audio and visual)
- firewire is still used on the latest release of the current Apple flagship notebooks
(anyone's call as to whether the 15" alu is the flagship - either way there's not doubt that the 17" alu will carry FW)
- firewire is still used on the latest middle to upper releases of all the top camcorder companies
(where USB is strangely absent and interestingly the choice of tech seems independent of pc CPU 'advances' - odd)
- statistically firewire is still in growth mode (from the same report used to highlight the decline of firewire as a percentage of all camcorders)
- the price of the alu MB has increased significantly over the last model and is now well into the "expensive for a notebook" range
(yes, around double that of what people count as expensive for a camcorder - different uses but hey put it in the thinking pot and let it stew for a while)
- USB3 is nowhere to be seen for the forseeable future
- there is no other current equivalent technology which can replace FW for power, hot-swap, speed and architecture features
- in the majority of the tech market there is a burgeoning lower class of items, which will naturally skew statistics (unless you examine those statistics properly)
- camcorder and other peripheral manufacturers do not base their product sales or choice of technology on the smallest of markets
- apple has not managed to increase speed or general CPU performance on it's latest MB
- heat is a major issue in notebooks, and intel obviously see this as an important constraint to be overcome to continue increasing CPU load
- host controlled tech (USB) gives us no realistic alternative as to how they are going to increase the speed 10 fold without creating more problems than they solve
- USB3 is no guarantee of its advertised speed, any more than USB2 was a guarantee of its advertised speed.

so where does all this leave us ?
- firewire is nowhere near dead (even people who don't like it better hope it isn't - there isn't a proven replacement either now or in the foreseeable future)
- firewire is still being deliberately chosen by (big) manufacturers, some of whom are deliberately aiming their products at the lower end of the market
- firewire cannot be currently replaced (even if we wanted to - and some people obviously do - no idea why)
- increasing CPU load is a problem, not just based on silicon costs, but heat, space and battery power constraints
- one cannot draw marketwide conclusions based on the release of one model of notebook computer from one small (albeit our favourite) manufacturer
- one cannot draw conclusions based on the swelling super low price market any more than Steve takes any notice of the sub $500 notebook market

it leaves us with the idea apple is still a small player in the pc market (albiet a growing player - which could be good), who has issued one notebook in their line without firewire, most probably for the reasons SJ himself said - that the consumer market is going low end (using video as an unfortunate example - having just totally upgraded the video features of the MB to well beyond the needs of the market he was talking about)

all this would be fine... except that at the same time as removing features to make it entry level, apple have increased the price way beyond what most people in that low end market can afford

it's your call as to whether this was a good move

either way I find no decent arguments to state that FW is either dead or dying, or being adequately replaced by another tech in the realm it has always been - which includes (but is not limited to) middle to upper class computers and peripherals
...strangely the same demographic which has the funds to purchase a $1300 entry level notebook
post #1193 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

yes sherlock - but a decline in only one area of the overall market why don't you pick just one brand and use that to extrapolate a worldwide trend... oh wait you did !

Because Macs represent a significant portion of FW's computer market penetration since every mac had gone out with a FW port. No longer. So the millions of MacBooks that will sell in FY09 will not add to the projected growth of 0.2% total units shipped but instead represent an unaccounted decline in that projection.

Quote:
so you used only part of the research (the camcorder part) research which had overall conclusions stating that FW was not in decline... but might end up in decline over 2 years in the future which you used to go and predict the absolute death of firewire an interface which the same manufacturer you have been using to predict it's death - has just put on it's current flagship offering and no, one single model of one manufacturer's product line - which still uses that interface in it's latest products will not be enough to topple an interface technology which reaches far beyond personal computers (much less notebooks)

The research said that growth was going to be miniscule with decline beginning in 6 months (mid 2009) not 2 years. Note that growth of units shipped was expected to continue until 2011 (if you count 0.2% growth) but in terms of market share it was expected to decline this coming year.

You can argue that it was no surprise that Apple would drop FW on the MB since it abandoned FW on it's iPods but I don't think that those guys were quite this prescient to have predicted dropping FW on the MB in 2008.

Quote:
if you're not too scared of being swamped by marketing people
have a look at the 1394 website and see what other uses it has...

oh wait what's that on the front page?
Sony's flagship video camera ?
gee those guys are idiots - they're just about to release a camera with firewire on it - dang at least it's only at pre-order stage they should have consulted vinea first.... pfff sony's obviously going to hit the dust pretty soon

Yes, as others have pointed out...a pro grade camera...at $3,199.99. I think those users can afford a MBP which will continue to have FW for this rev.

As far as the impact of the Macbook to FW's future...it's rather telling that right under that picture of Sony's new camera are two notes about Mac. How odd they don't talk about how to turn your PC into a DVR under Vista/XP instead given that the Mac still has far less market share than Windows.
post #1194 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

but at the same time people are arguing that
- apple only represents a small portion of the consumer market (i think the words were "microsoft dominates the market")

Actually Mac represents a sizable portion of the consumer market...21% in the US, 10% world wide.

However, Windows does dominate the market.

Quote:
- that the release of one single model of apple notebook computer (despite the "lack of domination" point) is indicative for the entire market

Given that Mac has 21% of the US consumer market share and Macs all shipped with FW until recently you can easily draw the conclusion that macs represents a very large part of the 33% total computer market penetration for FW and an even higher percentage of the FW market penetration in the consumer computer market.

Quote:
- any sound arguments indicating that FW might have a technological edge over current or near future tech is labelled 'marketing'

No, any marketing materials are labeled marketing.

Quote:
- statistically firewire is still in growth mode (from the same report used to highlight the decline of firewire as a percentage of all camcorders)

0.2% growth without taking into account the loss of the MB.

Quote:
- USB3 is nowhere to be seen for the forseeable future

2009 is unforseeable future?

Quote:
- camcorder and other peripheral manufacturers do not base their product sales or choice of technology on the smallest of markets

The consumer market is far larger than the pro market. Of course, the pro market is very profitable in comparison.

Quote:
- apple has not managed to increase speed or general CPU performance on it's latest MB

Incorrect with respect to power usage and thermal characteristics to get that CPU performance.

Quote:
- heat is a major issue in notebooks, and intel obviously see this as an important constraint to be overcome to continue increasing CPU load

Which is why the new chips are better than the old ones.

Quote:
so where does all this leave us ?
- firewire is nowhere near dead (even people who don't like it better hope it isn't - there isn't a proven replacement either now or in the foreseeable future)

Except for the fact that it is dying because it has largely been replaced.

Quote:
- firewire is still being deliberately chosen by (big) manufacturers, some of whom are deliberately aiming their products at the lower end of the market

Except that this is an untrue statement when you can see that 9 out of 10 of the most popular camcorders on Amazon are FWless. That consumer camcorders are now largely going both tapeless and FWless.

Quote:
- increasing CPU load is a problem, not just based on silicon costs, but heat, space and battery power constraints

Except it isn't and it has been shown that good USB implementations represent relatively low CPU usage...even in comparison to FW.

Quote:
- one cannot draw marketwide conclusions based on the release of one model of notebook computer from one small (albeit our favourite) manufacturer

Except when that one model of notebook computer represents a significant portion of FW computer sales.

Quote:
it leaves us with the idea apple is still a small player in the pc market (albiet a growing player - which could be good), who has issued one notebook in their line without firewire, most probably for the reasons SJ himself said - that the consumer market is going low end (using video as an unfortunate example - having just totally upgraded the video features of the MB to well beyond the needs of the market he was talking about)

Except that the video graphics processing that was upgraded has ZERO to do with the video tape capability removed. And it is by no means beyond the needs of the market but now adequate where it was inadequate before.

Quote:
it's your call as to whether this was a good move

It was an awesome move. The new GPU is great...well...great in comparison to the Intel GMAs anyway.

Quote:
either way I find no decent arguments to state that FW is either dead or dying, or being adequately replaced by another tech in the realm it has always been - which includes (but is not limited to) middle to upper class computers and peripherals...strangely the same demographic which has the funds to purchase a $1300 entry level notebook

Only because you refuse to look beyond the pain in your own small niche of audio production to look at the much greater benefit to the consumer user as a whole. Their ability to play WoW on the MB trumps your ability to do audio or video work on the MB to Apple.

Get over it.
post #1195 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

dons flame proof suit

ok so let's summarizzzzzze...people here are arguing that:
- firewire is dead
- camcorders are moving towards USB
- firewire is a technology which is in decline
- firewire can easily be replaced by USB2 since CPU power has increased dramatically
- the majority of camcorders are USB (!?)
- the majority of audio peripherals are USB (!?)
- the fact that Apple left it off one notebook model is a sure sign for the whole market (!?)
- USB 3 will replace firewire
- Esata replaces firewire
- GigE will replace firewire
- USB3 replaces firewire
- USB2 replaces firewire (!!?)
- firewire will replace firewire (just seeing if you're awake)
- they don't (personally) need firewire (my favourite)
- battery power is a constraint

but at the same time people are arguing that
- apple only represents a small portion of the consumer market (i think the words were "microsoft dominates the market")
- the consumer market does not buy expensive equipment (eg camcorders over $750 are on the high side apparently)
- that the release of one single model of apple notebook computer (despite the "lack of domination" point) is indicative for the entire market
- that with future technologies (USB3) while attempting to transfer more date at 10x the current rate, we'll be fine in terms of CPU and heat release rates.
- any sound arguments indicating that FW might have a technological edge over current or near future tech is labelled 'marketing'
- any arguments that FW architecture might not be able to be replaced are met with guarantees of future CPU power over non-proven connection methods

yet what we also see/know is that:
- firewire is still the choice of professionals (audio and visual)
- firewire is still used on the latest release of the current Apple flagship notebooks
(anyone's call as to whether the 15" alu is the flagship - either way there's not doubt that the 17" alu will carry FW)
- firewire is still used on the latest middle to upper releases of all the top camcorder companies
(where USB is strangely absent and interestingly the choice of tech seems independent of pc CPU 'advances' - odd)
- statistically firewire is still in growth mode (from the same report used to highlight the decline of firewire as a percentage of all camcorders)
- the price of the alu MB has increased significantly over the last model and is now well into the "expensive for a notebook" range
(yes, around double that of what people count as expensive for a camcorder - different uses but hey put it in the thinking pot and let it stew for a while)
- USB3 is nowhere to be seen for the forseeable future
- there is no other current equivalent technology which can replace FW for power, hot-swap, speed and architecture features
- in the majority of the tech market there is a burgeoning lower class of items, which will naturally skew statistics (unless you examine those statistics properly)
- camcorder and other peripheral manufacturers do not base their product sales or choice of technology on the smallest of markets
- apple has not managed to increase speed or general CPU performance on it's latest MB
- heat is a major issue in notebooks, and intel obviously see this as an important constraint to be overcome to continue increasing CPU load
- host controlled tech (USB) gives us no realistic alternative as to how they are going to increase the speed 10 fold without creating more problems than they solve
- USB3 is no guarantee of its advertised speed, any more than USB2 was a guarantee of its advertised speed.

so where does all this leave us ?
- firewire is nowhere near dead (even people who don't like it better hope it isn't - there isn't a proven replacement either now or in the foreseeable future)
- firewire is still being deliberately chosen by (big) manufacturers, some of whom are deliberately aiming their products at the lower end of the market
- firewire cannot be currently replaced (even if we wanted to - and some people obviously do - no idea why)
- increasing CPU load is a problem, not just based on silicon costs, but heat, space and battery power constraints
- one cannot draw marketwide conclusions based on the release of one model of notebook computer from one small (albeit our favourite) manufacturer
- one cannot draw conclusions based on the swelling super low price market any more than Steve takes any notice of the sub $500 notebook market

it leaves us with the idea apple is still a small player in the pc market (albiet a growing player - which could be good), who has issued one notebook in their line without firewire, most probably for the reasons SJ himself said - that the consumer market is going low end (using video as an unfortunate example - having just totally upgraded the video features of the MB to well beyond the needs of the market he was talking about)

all this would be fine... except that at the same time as removing features to make it entry level, apple have increased the price way beyond what most people in that low end market can afford

it's your call as to whether this was a good move

either way I find no decent arguments to state that FW is either dead or dying, or being adequately replaced by another tech in the realm it has always been - which includes (but is not limited to) middle to upper class computers and peripherals
...strangely the same demographic which has the funds to purchase a $1300 entry level notebook

That really wasn't too bad of a sum up, though you have moved some of the arguments to where they weren't intended to be moved.

But the one thing that you missed on is that when everything is advancing at say, a 20% rate, and another is advancing at say, a 5% rate, the that 5% is a decline in marketshare. In order to understand this, you have to understand that.

Right now, the numbers we've been seeing, show that Apple sells 20% of all computers at retail, and 66% of all computers over $1,000, in the USA. The Macbook has been given numbers as high as 16% of laptop sales in the USA, so that's not an inconsiderable number, and is up from 12% last year, same time.

While figures are much lower around the world, that's expected, as Apple has less presence there, though that, and the marketshare are both rising.

As is said in the industry, Apple has an influence far outsized to its sales, and always has. Where Apple goes, the rest of the industry follows. It may take a year or even three, in some cases where cost go higher in doing it, but it does happen. In this case, costs would go down.

Even if USB 3 would cost a bit more than FW to include, why would manufacturers want to include both, when USB is ubiquitous? They won't.

You are the only one who thinks USB 3 wn't be seen for the forseeable future. We see in in a year, possibly earlier, possibly a bit later, but here.

Around the end of 2009, all the new, and revised standards will be here. It will be interesting to see which gain share, and which decline.
post #1196 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Because Macs represent a significant portion of FW's computer market penetration since every mac had gone out with a FW port. No longer.

As far as the impact of the Macbook to FW's future...it's rather telling that right under that picture of Sony's new camera are two notes about Mac. How odd they don't talk about how to turn your PC into a DVR under Vista/XP instead given that the Mac still has far less market share than Windows.

what's telling about quoting mac on the front page... we all know mac is good, in many cases better than PC.

i concur on the placement of this model in the scheme of things - it's certainly not consumer market camera... but then of course Sony in all their wisdom would not put a dying interface on their expensive flagship model. That would makes no sense at all.

if you follow those links you'll find some stats:

Quote:
Isn’t FireWire just used for DV cameras, whereas USB can be used for a
wide range of peripherals?

There are millions of devices shipped each year with FireWire:

• 11 million Desktop PCs (which is roughly 10% of total PC market) are shipped annually with FireWire.
• 36 million Laptop PCs shipped annually have FireWire
• 6 million external storage devices have a FireWire interface
• 14 million Digital Camcorders have FireWire

how many macs does apple sell per year? at around 2.6 million per quarter that's only 10million per year (if we're being generous since the 2.6 is based on Apple's best quarter to date) - which is less than 25% of the firewire equipped PCs sold annually

i think someone might be overestimating the impact of removing FW from one single model of Apple notebook...

oh sorry, this must be marketing data
post #1197 of 1657
[QUOTE=otwayross;1335333
i think someone might be overestimating the impact of removing FW from one single model of Apple notebook...

oh sorry, this must be marketing data [/QUOTE]

No, it's your misreading of the market.
post #1198 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Their ability to play WoW on the MB trumps your ability to do audio or video work on the MB to Apple.

Get over it.

Vinea if you could please combine this line on Apple MB being about WoW
to your best line so far (which is "i only need USB2") ??

it doesn't get much better than this...

brilliant
post #1199 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

That really wasn't too bad of a sum up, though you have moved some of the arguments to where they weren't intended to be moved.

But the one thing that you missed on is that when everything is advancing at say, a 20% rate, and another is advancing at say, a 5% rate, the that 5% is a decline in marketshare. In order to understand this, you have to understand that.

errrr it depends around which segment of the market you draw the box.

simplified it's a Venn diagram with one circle (high end) getting bigger and the other
circle getting bigger faster (low end at 20%) - there is some overlap of course

since the entire PC market is growing (both circles) I'm not sure where you get your assumption that the low end is eating the high end?

and a decline in overall marketshare (the high end market as a % of both markets) is only important for.... errrr no one.

As I said, FW was always aimed at the middle to upper market which is precisely where Apple prices its products - and SJ just stated that he doesn't care about the low end of the market as a general Apple philosophy.
post #1200 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

errrr it depends around which segment of the market you draw the box.

simplified it's a Venn diagram with one circle (high end) getting bigger and the other
circle getting bigger faster (low end at 20%) - there is some overlap of course

since the entire PC market is growing (both circles) I'm not sure where you get your assumption that the low end is eating the high end?

and a decline in overall marketshare (the high end market as a % of both markets) is only important for.... errrr no one.

As I said, FW was always aimed at the middle to upper market which is precisely where Apple prices its products - and SJ just stated that he doesn't care about the low end of the market as a general Apple philosophy.

Marketshare declines can start anywhere. The then tend to move to other areas.

Whether it starts at the high end, or at the low end doesn't matter long term.

What's been interesting the past three or four years, is that the professional markets have been adapting consumer technologies as they've been getting better. If fact, when FW first invaded the very high end, several years before, it was derided hotly, as it was, and is, a poor cousin to the interfaces used there, but has found some limited use.

That was one of the first technologies from the consumer camcorder market that moved upscale.

But most newer interface technologies are being developed with industrial, professional, and consumer interests in mind.

While it looked for a while that one interface might take over, it's now being thought that for best performance, that can't work, at least, not yet. I expect that someday, we will possibly have one interface for everything, except, possibly, for very specialized purposes. But that day may not come for at least another ten, and possibly, twenty years.
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