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Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire - Page 4

post #121 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

If Firewire wasn't viable Apple and Apogee would not have jointly developed the Ensemble and Duet audio interfaces

http://www.apogeedigital.com/news/?p=45

September 07 was the announce date for Duet. It's abusurd to think that in the last year the prospects for Firewire became so dim that Apple suddenly saw them as inviable.

Yeah, and people who need those are PROs. Comprende? Just in case you missed it, I'll just cite myself:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rawhead View Post

Real pros need to get the bestest and the fastest; i.e., MacBook Pros and FW800 so there's not a problem.

If you're not a real pro, OR, are a pro but are willing to sacrifice horse power (CPU/GPU), expandability (CardBus), faster throughput (FW800), screen size and res, etc. for the smaller footprint of a Macbook, THEN you can grab a previous gen 2.4GHz MacBook refurb for $1050 at store.apple.com. Mind you, this was the TOP OF THE LINE Macbook till 48 hours ago.

By the time that machine is obsolete--say 2-3 years from now--the aluminum Macbooks will have USB3, or maybe even FW800.
post #122 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

I am not familiar with the HV20 and HV30, we don't use Canon stuff where I work as it's too junky and unreliable for the most part and the HV20 is not just "consumer level" it's listed by most reviewers as "cheap." I note they both have USB ports though. I assume you will argue that USB is only for still images or whatever, but then you say you use the HV20 which would certainly fall into the "older camera" category I mentioned earlier.

Whether or not you can find, or in fact already use a camera that only has FireWire doesn't invalidate the main point being made though. I see different kinds of cameras daily at my work and I'm the guy that helps them get the video out of the camera and into the computer. The bulk of the consumer market has moved to USB. It has. The only firewire only camera I've seen for ages is an old Sony Hi8.

Well, you do everything to prove your complete and utter lack of knowledge, don't you?

The HV20 is less than 2 years old (and won about every review and comparison in existence), the HV30 (equally highly praised) is current. The majority of MiniDV based STANDARD DEFINITION camcorders on the market does not support capturing via USB, with HDV it is not a problem as HDV is not captured, it is only a data transfer. All these cameras (and several from Sony, Panasonic, JVC etc) do have USB ports, just you cannot get SD video through them. You will not have problems with USB with any AVCHD and other solid storage camcorders (if OS X supports them) because there is no capturing involved and sheer data transfer does not require a sustained minium speed.

Canon stuff "too junky and unreliable", hehe... you have never been any closer to a camcorder than a mile, uh?
post #123 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by rawhead View Post

Yeah, and people who need those are PROs. Comprende? Just in case you missed it, I'll just cite myself:

The Duet is not aimed at Pros (It's only $500) The Ensemble is ($1500)

And I haven't even mentioned the plethora of FW interfaces that are around 299. Oh I
comprende very well thank you.


There's really no justification for Apple removing a feature from a box that's closed enough.
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post #124 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by rawhead View Post

And you can't settle for a $1000 refurb 2.4GHz white Macbook or $999 lowend Macbook new, why again?

a) That MacBook will be discontinued after a while.

b) Friends that are running out buying the MacBook without firewire will be running to me for help eventually and it will take longer to help them if I have to use their slow USB connection instead of firewire.
post #125 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by OriginalMacRat View Post

a) That MacBook will be discontinued after a while.

b) Friends that are running out buying the MacBook without firewire will be running to me for help eventually and it will take longer to help them if I have to use their slow USB connection instead of firewire.

Don't be so dramatic. The sustained speed of FW400 over USB2.0 aren't that extreme. If you care about speed you'll use 1000BASE-T, anyway. No need for crossover cable, just plug them in directly and the Mac will determine the RX and TX automatically.
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post #126 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by rawhead View Post

And you can't settle for a $1000 refurb 2.4GHz white Macbook or $999 lowend Macbook new, why again?

The new Macbooks have graphic power, I can't demo stuff that its not supported cause the graphic card, I can do stuff way more quick with more power, If I can save at least 15 minutes less that is a gain. With more power I will be able to achieve at least 35 minutes less overall.
post #127 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post


Enjoy what is out there and save your $$$ if you want to MacBook Pro. I just wish they had the 17 inch ready, but I guess they have to wait until they ring out all of the bugs in the production line.

Where's the 13" Macbook Pro? Not only is Apple now telling me that I have to spend $2k to get FW and expandiblity but they are forcing me to accept a monitor that is larger than what I want.
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post #128 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by retroneo View Post

Both of these points are wrong. UVC-DV devices work with any software that works with DV over firewire, and require no additional drivers on the Mac. And there is more than adequate bandwidth for multiple HD streams before even coming close to USB's typical throughput.

We have not been talking about UVC-DV and HD is completely irrelevant here, as with all consumer devices it is compressed and there is no realtime capturing required, so yes, you can have a million HD streams going through USB... it will take time, but it will work. Standard definition from a DV camcorder has to be captured in realtime and the device mentioned in the original post is not sufficient to capture Standard Definition DV under OS X. We have purchased it from Pixela several months ago - it works for HDV (for the mentioned reasons) with Standard Definition (PAL) it will drop frames to maintain throughput. Definitely. We have tried at least 20 times. I cannot tell if this is a limitation of the device or the poor USB drivers in OS X though.
post #129 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksec View Post

Sorry i am totally lost........ Someone please explain to me.

The Macbook no longer has Firewire, and only Macbook Pro have Firewire,
Firewire has always been more expensive and more professional look to it.

So if you want professional port for professional job you want a professional macbook. The Macbook Pro.

So what is the big deal?

You can afford to buy Professional Expensive Camcorder, and not afford to buy a Macbook Pro?
It is not Apple completely drop Firewire from all range of their product.

If you want an Professional Mini Notebook then it is a different Story. But that is the problem apple doesn't have Mini Pro Notebook. Which is like they dont have xMac.

And i forgot to mention we have USB 3.0 coming in less then 12 months time.

Its kind of valid your input. But what happens to those who use external firewire hard drives?
Can you give me a fix to that? I cant daisy chain USB hard drive, transfer rate over USB 2.0 is also not constant, I can't boot from an USB 2.0 and the list just grows. That is not at all a pro use of Firewire, is just daily thing a lot of people does.

Mostly the people is complaining cause Apple is taking away something that in the first place they taught us to get used to.
post #130 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post

Its kind of valid your input. But what happens to those who use external firewire hard drives?
Can you give me a fix to that? I cant daisy chain USB hard drive, transfer rate over USB 2.0 is also not constant, I can't boot from an USB 2.0 and the list goes grows.

Mostly the people is complaining cause Apple is taking away something that in the first place they taught us to get used to.

One minor correction here, Intel Macs can boot from USB 2.
post #131 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolfactor View Post

Apple's thinking is and always will be slightly ahead of consumers' thinking. Sure, we hate to lose Firewire, a technology that has a cool name, great performance, and bragging rights, since Apple invented it. But if you stop and think about it... the MacBook (which no longer has Firewire) is targeted to a market that probably won't ever use Firewire. The vocal minority here are the ones that should be looking at a MacBook Pro anyway, which still has their beloved port.

(Firewire has saved my butt many times over with Target Disk Mode, but I understand that the landscape changes, and so will our products. Just look at the myriad of display/video ports we've gone through in the past few years).

Face it people....firewire is dead. You think after the macbook event and Jobs' comments that firewire has much of a future? Go look for adapters in the meantime (and trust me 3rd parties will be all over this) and/or save up to upgrade your peripherals.
post #132 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by xwiredtva View Post

Intel OWNS USB.
Apple OWNS Firewire.

This debate goes back to the 80's and early 90's. Apple created FW. They did NOT want to license it to PC makers to give Apple an edge. The edge really was their ability to work with creative works, not the FW part.

Later in our story... Intel now a complete package developer on the hardware front. From CPU to the board itself was including USB 1.1. Firewire cards worth buying cost upwards of $300. Intel builds upon 1.1 and develops version 2. Now Intel license the rights to use 2.0 to companys making billions of boards a year (not a lie here, billions in the 90's-not just motherboards either). Intel charges .01 per port, Apple charges a lot more. USB becomes cheaper and easier to implement and is reliable, thus the it becomes standard on 99% of what sells, PC's. Apple see's USB 1.1 as a great way to decrease the amount of chips and controllers it needs and adopts it into the iMac's in 1997, iBooks, etc... It was originally designed to replace PS/2 (An IBM development named after the PS/2 line of computers BTW).

None of this is a reason why Intel could not have supported FireWire in 1999 when it was clearly a better technology than USB.
post #133 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post

Its kind of valid your input. But what happens to those who use external firewire hard drives?
Can you give me a fix to that? I cant daisy chain USB hard drive, transfer rate over USB 2.0 is also not constant, I can't boot from an USB 2.0 and the list just grows. That is not at all a pro use of Firewire, is just daily thing a lot of people does.

Mostly the people is complaining cause Apple is taking away something that in the first place they taught us to get used to.

1. If your external HD doesn't have USB port already, buy an external USB HD case for $12. Open your FW case, take the HD out and put in the USB one. Done.
2. You can definitely boot from external USB drives with all Intel Macs.
3. With USB, you don't chain them, you hub them. Buy a nice USB2 hub for $20.

Seriously, people should complain about the lack of USB ports (only 2).
post #134 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

One minor correction here, Intel Macs can boot from USB 2.

1. Do you have tried it by yourself?
2. What you do when the transfer rate drops and you are in the middle of a system restoration?
Answer: a. You have to start over b. You probably end with the target HD damaged (same when a blackout happens while an install or restoration) That means you have to buy a new HD to replace the damaged one.
3. Not everyone has an Intel, I have customers with old first generation PowerBooks, Power Macs and alike.
post #135 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post

1. Do you have tried it by yourself?
2. What you do when the transfer rate drops and you are in the middle of a system restoration?
Answer: a. You have to start over b. You probably end with the target HD damaged (same when a blackout happens while an install or restoration) That means you have to buy a new HD to replace the damaged one.
3. Not everyone has an Intel, I have customers with old first generation PowerBooks, Power Macs and alike.

1. Yes
2. Ever happened to you? I haven't had any failure with USB drives.
3. We are talking about the new Macbook, are we? Are you saying with the new Macbook, your old Mac's FW stops working?

I didn't know Job has the power to remotely disable old hardware....
post #136 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by chriskeo View Post

Who buys a $20,000 camcorder and doesnt want to dish out an extra $400-700 for the MacBook Pro, which still has a firewire port

This non-argument is getting o-so-long in the tooth... I can happily spend 10,000 USD on a laptop if it meets my requirements - I do have the 17" MBP with all the toppings (320GB 7200 RPM HD, 4GB RAM, 1920x1200 highres display). No way in hell I would lug around this gorgeous laptop for video shooting. It is too big, too heavy and I do not require any of its power on the road.

The fact is that other computer makers can make 10" or 12" models with some means of expansion. Look at e.g. the Lenovo X200 - 12" with the same resolution as the MacBook, wireless USB, fingerprint reader, 5-in-1 card reader, ExpressCard slot accepting e.g. any Firewire adapter (and will also accept e.g. USB 3 adapters in the future), 3 USB ports, n Wifi, iSight, everything Apple cannot put in a 13,3" laptop being more expensive... for 1600 USD you do not get anything from Apple.

Look at it from any angle: The MacBook is 100% overpriced and now has inherited most limitations from the Air to make it even worse. Pointing at an even bigger model for a solution is no solution.
post #137 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post

1. Do you have tried it by yourself?
2. What you do when the transfer rate drops and you are in the middle of a system restoration?
Answer: a. You have to start over b. You probably end with the target HD damaged (same when a blackout happens while an install or restoration) That means you have to buy a new HD to replace the damaged one.
3. Not everyone has an Intel, I have customers with old first generation PowerBooks, Power Macs and alike.

1/2 Jeff is right. It works without problems IF the disk has been formatted with the correct partition map. Nothing happens when the framerate drops - it even works over WiFi... speed is completely irrelevant for data transfers (if you are patient). And yes, I have tried it. You cannot get into target disk mode via USB though.
3 is a valid point.
post #138 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

The Duet is not aimed at Pros (It's only $500) The Ensemble is ($1500)

And I haven't even mentioned the plethora of FW interfaces that are around 299. Oh I
comprende very well thank you.


Since when does price per se dictate whether or not a piece of equipment is pro? If you are a customer that absolutely NEEDS to use a FireWire audio interface, you are a pro. If you're not a pro, then you can settle for any number of USB audio interfaces, OR, if you are at that liminal state between a pro and a non-pro, you can always pick up a 2.4GHz white MacBook with FW400 for $1050 refurb as I've repeated like 10 times in this thread. By the time that is obsolete, this will be a total non-issue, even for people like you. So, no, really, you don't comprende at all.


Quote:
There's really no justification for Apple removing a feature from a box that's closed enough.


Are you illiterate or something? I, along with many others on this thread have been providing multiple arguable justifications for Apple removing FW400 from MacBook. It's one thing for you to say that you don't agree with any of them; but it's totally idiotic to claim "there's really no justification"
post #139 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnqh View Post

1. If your external HD doesn't have USB port already, buy an external USB HD case for $12. Open your FW case, take the HD out and put in the USB one. Done.
2. You can definitely boot from external USB drives with all Intel Macs.
3. With USB, you don't chain them, you hub them. Buy a nice USB2 hub for $20.

Seriously, people should complain about the lack of USB ports (only 2).

What kind of advise is that? a 12 bucks USB case/nice USB 2.0 hub for 20?

I have been doing Apple/HP + Pro video consulting for the last 8 years. I earn every dollar from it. That means I have used almost any technology available to do my job and USB 2.0 failed miserably.
USB 2.0 standard its not comparable to firewire by any means. You can write the stats and whatever you want using even your blood but in real life USB 2.0 will let you down.
I have FW case with IDE/ SATA / SATA II / eSata even a rare and expensive one with fiber optics and many of then have a USB 2.0 but I don't even use that standard to place an external DVD burner on a USB case.

If I learned something all this 25 years as Apple user is that quality goest first always, its like placing chinese parts in you car ( assuming you have a US or euro build car)
post #140 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post

The fact is that other computer makers can make 10" or 12" models with some means of expansion. Look at e.g. the Lenovo X200 - 12" with the same resolution as the MacBook, wireless USB, fingerprint reader, 5-in-1 card reader, ExpressCard slot accepting e.g. any Firewire adapter (and will also accept e.g. USB 3 adapters in the future), 3 USB ports, n Wifi, iSight, everything Apple cannot put in a 13,3" laptop being more expensive... for 1600 USD you do not get anything from Apple.

If they cannot then you really can't blame them as it is out of their control, or is that they won't because they only care to add ports that the majority of their customers will use. Seriously though, you point out the ports while alluding to or simply falsely assuming that everything else is the same. Very disingenuous.
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post #141 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post

1/2 Jeff is right. It works without problems IF the disk has been formatted with the correct partition map. Nothing happens when the framerate drops - it even works over WiFi... speed is completely irrelevant for data transfers (if you are patient). And yes, I have tried it. You cannot get into target disk mode via USB though.
3 is a valid point.

3 is a valid point?

OK, it is a valid point if you want to use the same external HD for both old and new....but then, most external FW HD already have USB2 port (unless it is 3 years old), unless I missed something here.
post #142 of 1657
Quote:
cameras like Sony's HDR-FX1000, which needs the faster throughput of FireWire (called i.LINK by Sony) to deliver raw content if a card reader isn't used.

If you weed out the shitty RCA flip camcorders (that no one should buy) from that amazon list that bumps the canon hv30 from #5 to #2 on that list. The hv30 is firewire based. If that statement was from Jobs he is absolutely wrong.

All new HD cameras are not USB2 and even the Sony FX1000 mentioned in the article is firewire based. The article was also wrong in mentioning the use of a card for the FX1000, it doesn't come with the camera, it is a separate add on. The CF card unit add on to the FX1000 in the article also has firewire as it's only connection option to a computer, I know because I have that CF unit.

If I was to get a new macbook (which I won't) I would have to jump through the hoop of taking the card out of the CF card unit, putting it in a slower USB card reader, and attaching that to the macbook to offload footage.

I wanted a macbook for just daily computing and the added bonus of offloading the unit the article mentions (before getting back to my mac pro at home), now I'm gonna buy something from another maker instead, it'll be the first time in 5 years that I've owned a windows computer. Maybe I'll hackintosh it.

Also even if those SD card based cameras are USB, what about storing footage? Are we supposed to use USB for that? Let me get this straight: shoot to SD cards or hard drive using AVCHD, offload to the computer (which is a beat to edit and the mac can't yet do natively) and then store that high stress, high bandwidth footage on a USB drive? Wow. There goes your performance.
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post #143 of 1657
I can't imagine what it's like to literally change the way notebooks are engineered with one innovation after another, then spreading additional new upgrades and features broadly across your product line, only to have people whine about change.

For all those that just can't use a glossy display without spontaneously combusting, please go buy a Dell and live long and prosper.

If you are a pro and make money with your Mac, and absolutely require a FW port, the Pro model is there for your professional needs.

I wish Apple had standardized on FW800 for all their Macs, but I can accept that the lower end will only offer USB. It's going to irritate a few, no doubt, but we've been here before (floppy drives) and heard the same restless souls threaten to switch to Dell.

I understand debate about the pros and cons of Apple's actions. I understand the frustration for those that own FW400 peripherals. But it would take a hell of a lot more than omitting a FW port to get me to switch to Windows. I would rather man up and get the MBPro or save money and get an excellent deal on the previous model.
post #144 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Don't be so dramatic. The sustained speed of FW400 over USB2.0 aren't that extreme. If you care about speed you'll use 1000BASE-T, anyway. No need for crossover cable, just plug them in directly and the Mac will determine the RX and TX automatically.

Ah, but if latency is important, what do we do then?

Okay, I know a lot of you people say that very few use Firewire on the Macbooks.

There certainly are a multitude of reasons for that. First one, USB has the most commonly used accessories. Mice, keyboards, thumb drives. Second one, knowledge and price. Hard disk drives, web cameras, digital camcorders.

But, there's also a lot of people who actually use the Firewire port. Audio interfaces, the aforementioned camcorders, and certainly Firewire hard disk drives. Daisy-chaining is a godsend on port limited systems.

Anyway. I'd argue that none of these are "pro" features. Anyone who wants to get great sound out of a Macbook will probably default to a Firewire audio interface. (IIRC, Realtek doesn't make anything half decent) Anyone who really use a lot of hard disk space probably use Firewire disks. And so on.

Not only "pros" care. Disregarding the fact that the Macbook, and iBook were more "consumer" machines than the aluminium Macbook now is.

Not disregarding the fact, the case here is taking a consumer technology and making it "pro". In the world where I live, technologies get commoditized, not made more scarce. Unless replaced that is. Commoditizing of Firewire seems to be happening in the PC world. Nearly every PC now comes with some kind of Firewire, the high end might even have FW800. The iMac got more Firewire ports in the last update. Also "consumer" hardware. Why not the Macbook?

As for scarcity of use, I'd chance that Firewire is used a lot more than the optical outputs and inputs, or even the line-in. Get rid of that, too?

All in all, it's probably a rationalization made because of lack of space on the motherboard. I'm not sure why there's an USB controller on there though. Doesn't the NVIDIA chipset handle that?

It's late, I'm rambling. Feel free to point out any obvious errors.

/Adrian
post #145 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecking View Post

I wanted a macbook for just daily computing...

The MacBooks and MacBook Pros that were being sold on Monday are still a great machine that is more than capable for daily computing. Now they are cheaper, come with the warranty, and are a tried-and-true design that has had almost 4 years to get the kinks out.
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post #146 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post

What kind of advise is that? a 12 bucks USB case/nice USB 2.0 hub for 20?

I have been doing Apple/HP + Pro video consulting for the last 8 years.

"Pro video consulting"... you realize MB is a consumer machine, right?

Seriously, if you don't like it, get MBP, or get a Windows machine. Vote with your wallet if it is that important to you.

But like or not, Firewire is dead as a consumer standard. The writing was on the wall when Apple pulled FW from iPod many years ago.
post #147 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olternaut View Post

Face it people....firewire is dead. You think after the macbook event and Jobs' comments that firewire has much of a future? Go look for adapters in the meantime (and trust me 3rd parties will be all over this) and/or save up to upgrade your peripherals.

You are saying that Firewire is dead. How do you know that? Is it because Apple dropped it from the MacBook or is it because you read a statement from Apple somewhere that stated 'Firewire is dead'?

Until a few days ago, every Mac sold had a Firewire interface. Today, not so. Tomorrow - who knows.

It would not hurt Apple's business model at all to communicate with their users in a proactive way, to have made a statement 6 months ago that entry level Macs (just the MB at present) would be dropping FW. They could then have said that 'however, we are committed to the standard and will continue to support it in other systems' or that 'we will be phasing it out on all systems over time'.

Without such communication coming from Apple, it is equally valid to say that dropping Firewire from some systems was simply a way of differentiating models in a purely arbitrary way. If this is true, then defending the move simply defends their existing business model, one where users should expect to be left totally in the dark until the decision is dropped on them from above.

Apple genuinely does not care less about the disappointment these moves cause and it certainly does not care about the divisions such a move causes in forums such as this.
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post #148 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zandros View Post

As for scarcity of use, I'd chance that Firewire is used a lot more than the optical outputs and inputs, or even the line-in. Get rid of that, too?

But they are built-into the analog audio input and output so it's not wasted space. Apple supports USB1,0 still, but if USB2.0 used a different port I bet USB1.0 would have been dropped long ago. FW800 will probably stay as FW3200 gets added to the Pro end.

Does it suck for some? Sure. Does it affect your current setup? Nope. Does it prevent you from buying a now cheaper, well designed MB or MBP that has FW400 included if you need a new machine for the time behind? Not at all.

If we are going to place any real blame on Apple it should be for not having the foresight to make the FW400 and FW800 ports the same so direct backwards compatibility could be maintained the way that USB3.0 will, but we all saw this coming years ago, even if we didn't want to accept it.

PS: I was really hoping for that large, unused, power eating, slow reading, even slower writing component called an optical drive would have been removed this time around. I can't recall the last time I used the optical drive and it takes up a lot of room. You could add a 2nd HDD for an internal RAID or Time Machine & an EC/54 slot in the space the drive takes up. Actually, now that it's SATA, I need to see if I can add a 2nd HDD in a RAID0 configuration.
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post #149 of 1657
EDIT: I did read the post before.

Resume: waiting for usb3 ^_^
post #150 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnqh View Post

"Pro video consulting"... you realize MB is a consumer machine, right?

Seriously, if you don't like it, get MBP, or get a Windows machine. Vote with your wallet if it is that important to you.

But like or not, Firewire is dead as a consumer standard. The writing was on the wall when Apple pulled FW from iPod many years ago.

LOL, now you try to use what I wrote against me?

Hehehehehe, Now you made me lmao.

As a consultant I do provide service to the lowest to the highest level of user/companies.
For professional video I have 3 Mac Pros fully loaded.
I always been a proud owner and user, so if you do not understand what is love your machines and the stuff you do with them and how simple things can affect your way to do stuff I really don't know why you spend time here in this forum when so many of us try to help others.
post #151 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by rawhead View Post

Since when does price per se dictate whether or not a piece of equipment is pro? If you are a customer that absolutely NEEDS to use a FireWire audio interface, you are a pro. If you're not a pro, then you can settle for any number of USB audio interfaces, OR, if you are at that liminal state between a pro and a non-pro, you can always pick up a 2.4GHz white MacBook with FW400 of $1050 refurb as I've repeated like 10 times in this thread. By the time that is obsolete, this will be a total non-issue, even for people like you. So, no, really, you don't comprende at all.

Are you illiterate or something? I, along with many others on this thread have been providing multiple arguable justifications for Apple removing FW400 from MacBook. It's one thing for you to say that you don't agree with any of them; but it's totally idiotic to claim "there's really no justification"


Wow..you're really struggling with your argumentation aren't you?

There has never been a macbook without Firewire. There has never been a Pro=Firewire link.
Firewire rules the roost (qualitatively) for audio applications from consumer to Pro. I've articulated the technical reason why Firewire is suitable for audio applications over USB and the best you can do is launch ad hominem attacts and , via your bloviation. prove to at least the creative types on this board that you know nothing.

When I want your opinion I'll give it to you.
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post #152 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mukei View Post

In such a discussion I found a bit strange than no one think of the USB3 which is in development since many years and should be arriving "soon"
I think Firewire800 will disappear totally when USB3 will be available (The theorical speed is just crazy!)

FW3200 running at 3.2Gbps should arrive around, if not before USB3.0 and be about 2x as fast again, so the FW800 port design may still live on.
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post #153 of 1657
I think the fact that Apple just excluded Firewire without any advanced notice it the point here.

It's exactly like Vista from MS. Your hardware that you spent x on is no longer relevant.

It's a weak attempt from Apple to say you need the Pro to put out good Video and Audio.

That has and has always been their advantage that you can "be a video, audio" fan wihtout all the extra's.

These computers are over priced and have an unnecessary video card that take it out of the reach for the average home buyer.

Apple should have just said "We are over priced because we have great hardware".

They don't understand we're in hard times and many would have purchased them for an extra $30 bucks for firewire.

That's a guess on the pricing but I think my point is made.
post #154 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by IQatEdo View Post

You are saying that Firewire is dead. How do you know that? Is it because Apple dropped it from the MacBook or is it because you read a statement from Apple somewhere that stated 'Firewire is dead'?

Because Apple dropped it from iPod.
post #155 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mukei View Post

In such a discussion I found a bit strange than no one think of the USB3 which is in development since many years and should be arriving "soon"
I think Firewire800 will disappear totally when USB3 will be available (The theorical speed is just crazy!)

Correct...FW800 will indeed disappear by the time USB 3.0 comes out. Firewire 3200 will be shipping as the high end FW of choice then.
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post #156 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnqh View Post

Because Apple dropped it from iPod.

Why would an iPod need to have Firewire? It has it's only battery so the bus power of FW
isn't needed and the bidirectional benefits of FW do not come into play either.

The smart choice was to move the iPods to USB though that does not mean that USB is
always the smart choice over Firewire.
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post #157 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnqh View Post

Because Apple dropped it from iPod.

I rest my case. \
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post #158 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post

1/2 Jeff is right. It works without problems IF the disk has been formatted with the correct partition map. Nothing happens when the framerate drops - it even works over WiFi... speed is completely irrelevant for data transfers (if you are patient). And yes, I have tried it. You cannot get into target disk mode via USB though.
3 is a valid point.

Sorry man, I wont write something if it didn't happened to me, thats how I use to say things, thru personal experience. I have lost 3 USB 2.0 externals cause the drops and 2 internal HD's on the Mac itself. I gave USB 2.0 cases and standard a very good try for 2 years and didn't worked almost as flawless Firewire has been doing. The only disk I ever lost over a Firewire case was totally my fault cause I dropped the case from 4 feet high.

If it would happened once I would say it was random, but several times is not right
post #159 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

If they cannot then you really can't blame them as it is out of their control, or is that they won't because they only care to add ports that the majority of their customers will use. Seriously though, you point out the ports while alluding to or simply falsely assuming that everything else is the same. Very disingenuous.

??? Pardon, I am not sure I can make any sense out of this... Apple is out of control designing their own notebooks? (Well, uh, whatever. In this case it does make sense to talk 15 minutes about torturing aluminum instead...)

Every single Apple user I know is using Firewire - and even if you only use it once to transfer your data and settings from the previous Mac... so the real figure should be closer to 100% than 2%. And performing this transfer over LAN/WiFi is not an equal option at all (unless you have nothing else to do in life).

Apple used to be about people who change the world and think different - that's INDIVIDUALS... they were better at that than at assuming what the majority might use. There is no financial or logical or engineering argument why you cannot put a FW port (or a small ExpressCard slot) into a laptop of that size (if I remember correctly they were doing just that until 3 days ago). It is just blackmailing users to buy the next bigger thing. I would happily pay them the price of the 15" MBP for a 13" MB with Firewire (even if this would be a complete rip off). As it stands all the marvel of Apple engineering can do today is create a 13.3" laptop that is more restricted than the 12" PowerBook several years ago. Fatigue?

I am not alluding everything else is the same, except for the lack of OS X the X200 beats the crap out of all MacBooks and MacBook Airs Apple has on offer and is quite a bit cheaper. The only thing it lacks is a nice aluminum shell. If Apple cannot build any decent machine being smaller than 15.4" and weighing 5 lbs - they should license their OS to somebody with this ability.
post #160 of 1657
" I'm sorry that you and others* aren't getting what you want, but the customer base you mention is probably barely a blip on Apple's radar."

This post pretty much sums it up.

Most of the naysaying posts are whining because they aren't arguing the decision from the perspective of a mass market product.

They are merely looking at themselves and saying, "oh Apple, why art you thou doing this to me?"

I mean it's pretty obvious to everyone that if you're a heavy FW user and you wanted a new MB then you're disappointed. 1+1=2

Do you have to go on the internet and say what everyone already knows?

If you want to disagree with the decision then provide some evidence on how new MB sales are going to take a nosedive from this decision. After all this is how Apple is run.

Otherwise it is pretty much whining.

From what I can see the vast majority of MB users (I would say 99%) don't have any need for FW.

When I go the retail store or visit a site like Newegg.com the vast majority of storage devices out there for consumers are USB. There are a few FW/USB storage devices and even fewer (close to zero) FW-only storage devices.

Also the majority of consumer camcorders of the last year or two are USB. The move is on to Flash memory camcorders which I believe all carry USB interfaces. Canon has previously stated that this where their future lies for their consumer camcorder product.

Also one can see that Apple hasn't put FW on many other devices including iPods, AppleTV, Time Capsule and the AEBS.

Last Apple pretty much dropped miniDV support (which usually means FW interface) in IM08 which is their new consumer movie editing software. That was a year ago. Yes it works, but you can't get the quality out to iDVD using IM08.

This evidence should wipe the surprise from the faces of those who are crying "why me??" It should cut down on the drama at least.

Standards change. VHS was big awhile back. SCSI. etc.

The facts are that FW never caught on in the mass market. Intel came out with a much cheaper standard and the lower cost, does the job, good enough interface won the battle.

And now with the much faster USB3 set to be released in the next year or so. With computers having multiple cores which provide more than enough power that negates the cpu savings advantage of FW. FW is dead on the mass market consumer level.

It obviously lives on on the pro level. And there are some legacy consumers. But going forward its dead on the consumer level. And the MB is Apple's mass market consumer laptop.

The reality is the move to an LED screen. To an aluminum body. To a bigger than usual jump in the integrated gpu. To a glass trackpad. etc. These are going to do way more for MB sales than having an old plastic case with FW and a so-so screen did for MB sales.

IT's not the end of the world for the blip on the radar part of the old MB market. Any last-gen MB bought today is plenty fast. It looks like the new MBs aren't any faster than the old ones except in 3d games. The cpus are slower at least in the $1299 model.

Also MBPs are available in the refurb store for $1349 which are quite a bit more powerful than the $1299 new MBs. So if you can't step up to a new MBP when you purchase a new machine then you can step up to a refurb MBP.

In the end, I too am sorry some folks don't like the removal of FW on the new MBs. The reality is these decisions aren't made lightly and are made with millions of consumers in mind. They never can please everyone.
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