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Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire - Page 32

post #1241 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

whatever, you were obviously just skimming

i've already said that if pure data transfer is your game, USB2 is fine
and saving a few seconds is not such a big deal
i don't really hear anyone arguing about that except you

Because you aren't paying attention. Who brought that particular drive and said he preferred FW? I'm not arguing with myself so obviously someone else brought up that point. I wonder who that could be?
post #1242 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

you obviously skimmed my response and are just looking for a dig...

i was pointing out that by removing features and increasing the cost by nearly 20%
apple will make it more difficult for themselves to convert interest to sales

do you disagree ?

Yes, because they didn't remove any features those college kids care about while adding one they really DO care about. And the price increase fallacy was addressed pages ago.

Besides, that was to support the statement that the edu market is a significant demographic for Apple and in particular for the MacBook. Something Avon disagreed with.

One that you seem to as well. Apple did not design the new (or even arguably the old) MB for pros. They designed it for the consumer and education market. Graphics capability is far more important than FW now that iPods have been weaned from FW for a while now.
post #1243 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

last point is good - given that SJ already stated that Apple wasn't interested in producing a cheap computer...

what do you define as a cheap computer? and do you really believe that the $1300 MB is cheap for your average consumer?

read the comments and results table in the macworld article carefully - you've got your 45 and 51 seconds for USB vs FW backwards.

Like it or not, the Macbook is a cheap computer to those who want a mac laptop. The rest buy the MBP.

Even in the PC world, there are laptops costing more than the most expensive MBP. Much more.

There are really three catagories in PC laptops.

Expensive, MBP priced machines (and higher).

Middle prices machines, which the Macbooks are in.

And bargain prices machines, which is an area in which Apple doesn't compete.

For Apple, the Macbook is the cheap machine. The older model which is now $999, and ofter available for$949, sometimes a bit less, is not an expensive machine by any means.

The newer, cooler looking, machines do cost more. But they are still cheap machines for Apple, and therefor for the people purchasing them.

I know lots of people who have Macbooks, because I'm involved in education, informally. I don't know of anyone who thinks the Macbooks are expensive. Even most PC laptop owners I know, think it's not expensive, though they're not interested, or ready, to move to the OS.
post #1244 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

why is it that when i ask you where you get your ideas
you respond by making assumptions / accusations about what i think
did i ever indicate that i thought audio professionals outnumbered anyone ?

a simple "i'm surmising" or "i don't know" would have sufficed \

I'm simply going by what you say. Perhaps you don't always word things so that they come out the way you mean them to.

You don't want to admit that most sales are to students or people who don't need, or care about the things you think are important. That's why you doubt.

It isn't because of what you think you read in an article, which didn't say what you want to think it said.

So, therefor, I bring up what it looks as though you do believe, that there are those who do use these ports in great numbers. An idea which is simply not true.

As the people using these ports the most, are pros, you must think that there are massive numbers of them using Macbooks. As you don't want to believe the numbers, and percentages I supply, then you must believe that those pros are a far larger percentage of the Macbook user base than I know them to be.

It's not that difficult to get there from what you've been saying, not just in that one post, but from all of your posts.

If you agree that only a small number of people need, or care about FW in a Macbook exist. Then just say so. We will even agree!
post #1245 of 1657
Also, let's not forget that Mac laptops have been gaining in business as well. I already posted an article saying that the new Macbooks are well suited for business use.

Business users don't want features they don't use. FW is a big one.
post #1246 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Also, let's not forget that Mac laptops have been gaining in business as well. I already posted an article saying that the new Macbooks are well suited for business use.

Business users don't want features they don't use. FW is a big one.

The first thing I thought of when I saw the new 24" ACD with it's dock-less docking and power-passthrough is "this is for business". I think it's a clear sign that Apple is carefully and slowly moving into the business sector. Not so much for desktops, but for notebooks which have always been more specialized machines with non standard HW.

Then we have this new AI article...

"Last year, the company focused on its "digital lifestyle" products for consumers and the company's stronghold markets in education and creative professionals, relegating all other business into a single sentence.

This year's report outlines "consumer and small and mid-sized business," education, and then emphasizes "enterprise, government, and creative" as being the core target of its "high end hardware solutions," including the Mac Pro, MacBook Pro, and MacBook Air."

This doesn't sound like a whole new division for business is being created, but it does look like they are planning a controlled entry to this sector.
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post #1247 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

My little LaCie is FW only. Oddly it has a USB dongle thingy for power...something I never understood. I guess it's for 4 pin FW or something.

I guess you always have to leave room for caveat. Their used to be FW only hard drives. Before USB became viable for large data transfer.

My point is today no major commercial hard drive vendor sells FW only hard drives.
post #1248 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I'm simply going by what you say. Perhaps you don't always word things so that they come out the way you mean them to.

You don't want to admit that most sales are to students or people who don't need, or care about the things you think are important. That's why you doubt.

It isn't because of what you think you read in an article, which didn't say what you want to think it said.

So, therefor, I bring up what it looks as though you do believe, that there are those who do use these ports in great numbers. An idea which is simply not true.

As the people using these ports the most, are pros, you must think that there are massive numbers of them using Macbooks. As you don't want to believe the numbers, and percentages I supply, then you must believe that those pros are a far larger percentage of the Macbook user base than I know them to be.

It's not that difficult to get there from what you've been saying, not just in that one post, but from all of your posts.

If you agree that only a small number of people need, or care about FW in a Macbook exist. Then just say so. We will even agree!

whatever Mel you're clearly making assumptions (quite often wrong)
when you start sentences like 'you must think'
instead of just quoting what i have written
post #1249 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The first thing I thought of when I saw the new 24" ACD with it's dock-less docking and power-passthrough is "this is for business". I think it's a clear sign that Apple is carefully and slowly moving into the business sector. Not so much for desktops, but for notebooks which have always been more specialized machines with non standard HW.

Then we have this new AI article...

"Last year, the company focused on its "digital lifestyle" products for consumers and the company's stronghold markets in education and creative professionals, relegating all other business into a single sentence.

This year's report outlines "consumer and small and mid-sized business," education, and then emphasizes "enterprise, government, and creative" as being the core target of its "high end hardware solutions," including the Mac Pro, MacBook Pro, and MacBook Air."

This doesn't sound like a whole new division for business is being created, but it does look like they are planning a controlled entry to this sector.

i totally agree that Apple wants to move into business
and if they're chasing dollar it'd be wise - that's where the money is
(it certainly isn't with college students)
plus AI has been reporting their business advances for years

however anyone cheering this move must wonder
why apple would spend more on making the machine pretty than on much else

because businesses are mostly utilitarian
and don't give a hoot what a machine looks like

and since people claim that business don't like to pay for what they don't need...
post #1250 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

i totally agree that Apple wants to move into business
and if they're chasing dollar it'd be wise - that's where the money is
(it certainly isn't with college students)

Apple has 24.5 billion in cash without much penetration into business.

College students go on to high paying jobs and life long Apple users.
(where much of that 24.5 billion in cash came from)
post #1251 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

i totally agree that Apple wants to move into business
and if they're chasing dollar it'd be wise - that's where the money is
(it certainly isn't with college students)
plus AI has been reporting their business advances for years

If the money is not with college students then why are their repors of something like 80% of college students are buying Macs? Then figure that despite Apple's 10% share in the US they account for 1/3 of all the PC revenue in the US. Then recall that many colleges are not only requesting that users use Macs, and some are requiring it. Then assume that once you get into an OS platform you are most likely to stay with that OS platform, which is why going after students is even more important to Apple.

Quote:
however anyone cheering this move must wonder
why apple would spend more on making the machine pretty than on much else

To say that because Macs are "pretty" and nothing else makes me think you have never owned or used a Mac. From an engineering perspective, they are only pretty because they are designed well.

Quote:
because businesses are mostly utilitarian
and don't give a hoot what a machine looks like

What about the Mac is done just for looks and not for a specific function or purpose?
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post #1252 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Apple has 24.5 billion in cash without much penetration into business.

College students go on to high paying jobs and life long Apple users.
(where much of that 24.5 billion in cash came from)

you think they got their 24.5 billion from students ?
post #1253 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

you think they got their 24.5 billion from students ?

Did you fully comprehend what I wrote?
post #1254 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

If the money is not with college students then why are their repors of something like 80% of college students are buying Macs? Then figure that despite Apple's 10% share in the US they account for 1/3 of all the PC revenue in the US. Then recall that many colleges are not only requesting that users use Macs, and some are requiring it. Then assume that once you get into an OS platform you are most likely to stay with that OS platform, which is why going after students is even more important to Apple.

yes totally agree that there are more and more students buying apple - no arguments there
schools too seem to have been increasing their purchases

not sure about the 80% though... i've only seen a report where 84% wanted to buy a mac
as you know there's a difference - but apple stats might be able to prove conversion
who knows?

and yes it's good technique to convert students - some go on to be big earners
but most graduate students are often long way from being in charge of purchasing
and i have countless friends (wait make that a high % of my friends / family) who use macs at home
and would love to at work - but can't because their companies are unwilling

there're are a couple of leaps in logic here which aren't being shown to be true

it'd be nice for apple if that were the case though
and the photo of the lecture theatre filled with apples is impressive
(even if it probably came from a school which forced the purchases)

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

To say that because Macs are "pretty" and nothing else makes me think you have never owned or used a Mac. From an engineering perspective, they are only pretty because they are designed well.

don't get offended just because i have a different opinion
i've been on macs for ages and have spend a LOT of money on them
plus got a lot of people who can afford it to buy one (prob around 15+ and counting)
i love the look of the MB and plus it's probably quite strong
i'm just saying that business is not always sold on "pretty"
particularly when they have machines which have held up fine for years

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

What about the Mac is done just for looks and not for a specific function or purpose?

the Precision Epidermal Unibody Enclosure ?
post #1255 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Did you fully comprehend what I wrote?

perhaps not - but i couldn't figure out if you were supporting the idea of selling MBs to students
while they are still students
or selling MBs to ex-students

the two are very different demographics with completely different needs

i thought it best to ask you rather than make assumptions.
post #1256 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

perhaps not - but i couldn't figure out if you were supporting the idea of selling MBs to students
while they are still students
or selling MBs to ex-students

the two are very different demographics with completely different needs

i thought it best to ask you rather than make assumptions.

I think it should be obvious students alone did not give Apple all of that money.

But every electronics manufacturer want to gain a loyal base from the young. With the hope as they grow older and have more money they will stay loyal.
post #1257 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

the Precision Epidermal Unibody Enclosure ?

In reference to the new Mac notebooks, that engineering beauty adds considerable strength and rigidity to the structure. This potentially allows Apple to make changes faster to the design, keep the repairs down, make the machines last longer, and potentially make them cheaper to produce in the future. The unibody was not done for looks.

As for my Precision Epidermal Unibody Enclosure it has multiple purposes, too. It keeps my internals in, it regulates temperature, it allows me the sense of touch, it protects me harmful rays of the sun, etc.
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post #1258 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

whatever Mel you're clearly making assumptions (quite often wrong)
when you start sentences like 'you must think'
instead of just quoting what i have written

Not wrong.

Then respond to my last sentence. I see you didn't.

That will give you voice on that issue.

It's the responses not made, as well as the ones made that tell us what a person is thinking.

So, fill in the blank.
post #1259 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

i totally agree that Apple wants to move into business
and if they're chasing dollar it'd be wise - that's where the money is
(it certainly isn't with college students)
plus AI has been reporting their business advances for years

however anyone cheering this move must wonder
why apple would spend more on making the machine pretty than on much else

because businesses are mostly utilitarian
and don't give a hoot what a machine looks like

and since people claim that business don't like to pay for what they don't need...

Wrong again. Business does have needs and concerns about machines they do buy. Looks are certainly amongst those.

I posted this earlier. It certainly isn't the only article that says this, just the most recent.

A quote before the link.

Quote:
But unlike the old MacBook, the new one looks and feels like a business machine. Instead of a cheap plastic enclosure, it has a slimmer, stronger one-piece aluminum case. People sometimes forget that the MacBook Air (the machine I use) is clearly aimed at business execs.

http://www.computerworld.com/action/...4&pageNumber=1
post #1260 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

you think they got their 24.5 billion from students ?

Quote:
College students go on to high paying jobs and life long Apple users

You accuse others of not reading posts and articles.

But, you clearly didn't read, or pay any attention to his entire post. You picked up one line, and ran with it.
post #1261 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

perhaps not - but i couldn't figure out if you were supporting the idea of selling MBs to students
while they are still students
or selling MBs to ex-students

the two are very different demographics with completely different needs

i thought it best to ask you rather than make assumptions.

That wasn't asking. That was a sarcastic reply, and you know it.

The rest of his post had answered the "question" before you"asked" it.
post #1262 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

That wasn't asking. That was a sarcastic reply, and you know it.

The rest of his post had answered the "question" before you"asked" it.

thanks mel - no use getting upset or looking for sarcasm in everything

it wasn't a sarcastic reply at all,
i was following the thread of the argument...

students = not much money
ex-students = more money but different needs

if one wanted to sell to students they'd have to drop prices
which is why apple gives educational discounts to students just to enable them to buy macs

people here are trying to say that a MB is designed for students
but its priced for a deeper pocket than most students have
before they used to stretch themselves to get one with the discount

but hey don't believe me, maybe
WIRED agrees or Associated Press or the Washington Post

but I'll agree if you want to say that's only opinion...

anyway if you think most students have 1300 to spend on a MB then you must live in a rich area
or be referring to schools where macs are compulsary
post #1263 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

@ Avon B7,

Here is a 1.5TB external drive for $185 with only USB2.0 and eSATA. I haven't seen that before, but I wonder if this will be a greater trend in external drives, especially when USB3.0 comes out and if eSATA gains some traction.
http://www.goharddrive.com/ProductDe...11&Click=46325


I've seen quite a few of these dual interface options. I'm not 100% sure they can be trusted right now though. I read somewhere (I think it was from the maker of an Express Card eSATA option) that some of these dual interface options didn't have 'true' eSATA support (or words similar to that) and so would not work with the Express Card solution that the company (Sonnet?) was offering.
post #1264 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Actually Mac represents a sizable portion of the consumer market...21% in the US, 10% world wide.

Given that Mac has 21% of the US consumer market share and Macs all shipped with FW until recently you can easily draw the conclusion that macs represents a very large part of the 33% total computer market penetration for FW and an even higher percentage of the FW market penetration in the consumer computer market.

There's something fishy there. 21% is sizeable. 10% is not. You didn't say 10% 'rest of the world' so I presume that your 10% worldwide figure includes the 21% of the US market.

Worldwide, 10% is 10% whichever way you look at it and is not sizeable (at least in my book). Your method of easily concluding your firewire observations is very flawed.

Quote:
0.2% growth without taking into account the loss of the MB.

I wonder if the original calculation projected and factored in Apple's sales for 2008.

Quote:
Except it isn't and it has been shown that good USB implementations represent relatively low CPU usage...even in comparison to FW.

I'm curious. Does that hold true the more devices you attach? 'Relatively'? How much is 'relatively' and where was it shown? How can I tell a good implementation from a bad one? What happens if I mix and match?

Quote:
Except when that one model of notebook computer represents a significant portion of FW computer sales.

To my mind I have already debunked this a few pages back. I'm not sure if that got deleted though.
post #1265 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


But most newer interface technologies are being developed with industrial, professional, and consumer interests in mind.

You just described Firewire (except for the newer bit). I can happily detail where firewire is being used with all of those interests in mind.
post #1266 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post


Something you avoided discussing eh?

That reminds me. Some posts back I enquired on how you were reaching the other TVs in your house from your Media Centre.
post #1267 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Yes, because they didn't remove any features those college kids care about while adding one they really DO care about. And the price increase fallacy was addressed pages ago.

Besides, that was to support the statement that the edu market is a significant demographic for Apple and in particular for the MacBook. Something Avon disagreed with.

One that you seem to as well. Apple did not design the new (or even arguably the old) MB for pros. They designed it for the consumer and education market. Graphics capability is far more important than FW now that iPods have been weaned from FW for a while now.

I still very much disagree with that. The MacBook is for all kinds of users (consumers, pros and college kids alike). If Apple were catering only to college kids they'd be better off offering the MacBook Education Edition. However, it's clear that that isn't the case (I haven't seen anything to even remotely support that claim.
post #1268 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The first thing I thought of when I saw the new 24" ACD with it's dock-less docking and power-passthrough is "this is for business".

I can't see any success for that product in business (unless it's graphics related) because of its high price when compared to competitors.
post #1269 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post


people here are trying to say that a MB is designed for students
but its priced for a deeper pocket than most students have
before they used to stretch themselves to get one with the discount

There's a lot of wishful thinking going on on that front. It's convenient to give Apple a little spin when it comes to education (or anything else for that matter). I'm pro Mac (but not pro Apple) so I'll buy into it to a certain degree of spin but we have to get a sense of reality on the numbers.

I agree with otwayross. I think Apple has totally lost it if the new MacBook was designed for students and they put a such a high price on it. But let's be clear here. When we say 'students' are we referring to higher education and purchases by students or purchases by schools in other parts of the educational system that are not higher education?

Personally, I think Apple has repeated the mistake it made with the initial pricing of the iPhone. If anything, the market is worse now than it was at the time of the iPhone launch (Christmas will alleviate things somewhat) but I fully expect Apple to revise MacBook pricing soon.

So all those early adopters will be able to look forward to getting their $200 AppleStore vouchers as a means of compensation.
post #1270 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

There's something fishy there. 21% is sizeable. 10% is not. You didn't say 10% 'rest of the world' so I presume that your 10% worldwide figure includes the 21% of the US market.

Its consumer retail sales. The actual figure is 8.2 percent.
post #1271 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

You just described Firewire (except for the newer bit). I can happily detail where firewire is being used with all of those interests in mind.

I can detail it too.
post #1272 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

There's a lot of wishful thinking going on on that front. It's convenient to give Apple a little spin when it comes to education (or anything else for that matter). I'm pro Mac (but not pro Apple) so I'll buy into it to a certain degree of spin but we have to get a sense of reality on the numbers.

I agree with otwayross. I think Apple has totally lost it if the new MacBook was designed for students and they put a such a high price on it. But let's be clear here. When we say 'students' are we referring to higher education and purchases by students or purchases by schools in other parts of the educational system that are not higher education?

Personally, I think Apple has repeated the mistake it made with the initial pricing of the iPhone. If anything, the market is worse now than it was at the time of the iPhone launch (Christmas will alleviate things somewhat) but I fully expect Apple to revise MacBook pricing soon.

So all those early adopters will be able to look forward to getting their $200 AppleStore vouchers as a means of compensation.

No, it wasn't designed just for students. It was designed for more people than that. Students just seem to be buying it in very large numbers. College bound students aren't as poor as you seem to think they are either. Also, parents do often help. They can also get student discounts which helps.
post #1273 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

Its consumer retail sales. The actual figure is 8.2 percent.

Where did you get that number?

Retail is 21%. Total percentage is 9.5%. That's in the USA.
post #1274 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

That reminds me. Some posts back I enquired on how you were reaching the other TVs in your house from your Media Centre.

Actually, I only have my HTPC hooked to my projector at the moment. Well, I have an old XBox as well but I never modded that. However, control over ethernet is easy.
post #1275 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

I can't see any success for that product in business (unless it's graphics related) because of its high price when compared to competitors.

Well Mel pointed out earlier that business does not necessarily go for the cheapest solution. Quality counts in the full life of a product.
post #1276 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Where did you get that number?

Retail is 21%. Total percentage is 9.5%. That's in the USA.

That's sales, 8.2% is usage.

http://www.maclife.com/sites/default...s_increased_82
post #1277 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

That's sales, 8.2% is usage.

http://www.maclife.com/sites/default...s_increased_82

Are you saying that 1.3% of those are Macs being sold aren't being used? That doesn't make sense. The stats you give are from internet usage from 40k difference websites. The 9.5% Gartner gives is more accurate and useful evaluation based on on unit sales.
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post #1278 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Are you saying that 1.3% of those are Macs being sold aren't being used? That doesn't make sense. The stats you give are from internet usage from 40k difference websites. The 9.5% Gartner gives is more accurate and useful evaluation based on on unit sales.

No, I'm saying that people don't buy a new Mac every financial quarter. That 9.5% means percentage of new Apple computers bought. The 8.2% is the percentage of Mac OS X machines in service.
post #1279 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Well Mel pointed out earlier that business does not necessarily go for the cheapest solution. Quality counts in the full life of a product.

However price, even if it isn't the cheapest option, is a deciding factor. The vast amount of monitors for business use are not even 24 inch screens so that particular 24 inch Apple model is only appealing to a fragment of the market from the outset.

Businesses which require good quality visual output might be attracted to that model or might go over its head into the very high end market.

I suspect that Dell is rubbing its hands, happy to see Apple not charging into its monitor business. I hear that Dell has some very good quality 24 inch models at very good prices.
post #1280 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

However price, even if it isn't the cheapest option, is a deciding factor. The vast amount of monitors for business use are not even 24 inch screens so that particular 24 inch Apple model is only appealing to a fragment of the market from the outset.

Most every product plays to a fragmented market in one way or another. The goal is to find a profitable fragment. Apple has been able to be extremely profitable without the need to sell to everyone.
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