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Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire - Page 35

post #1361 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I just went through their site, which offers more than the stores. They don't list any Firewire or IEEE 1394 in their specifications, but they don't list much of anything, so I cross referenced a several of the higher-end drives with Newegg to see if any have FW. None did.

Even looking on Amazon, the number of newer consumer-grade camcorders with Firewire are few and far between. I know it sucks to have the market change before we're ready, but I think Apple called this one correctly. I see only 2 out of the top 25 that have IEEE 1394 and they also have USB2.0.

As much as i like FW, I agree.
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post #1362 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

The MacBook unibody was unveiled a little over a month ago. Let's see how things progress it's early days yet. I have a hunch that sales are not meeting expectations.

From everything I've heard, the new MacBook is selling like hotcakes. There was plenty of pent up demand from people who were waiting far into the education cycle and from PC switchers.

I have no doubt that Apple will announce at MWSF that the new machines are a hit. Where they have lost is in sales to their core users, and a serious distraction from the uniqueness of the MacBook's architecture (focusing on what's lost instead of what's new.)

They've also virtually killed any real street cred they had for Mac-only tech. After the dismal failure of the ADC connector a few years back and now possibly Firewire, Apple is demonstrating that they are wizards at software, but don't have the stomach to really push hardware standards of their own.

Look at how defiantly Sony has promoted Memory Stick. Apple ditched their own interface on the iPod and has now purposely sidelined it in favour of an outside technology that won't even be out in the market for a year.
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post #1363 of 1657
Well said. Likewise, they lost a sale to me for the same reason. If I have to upgrade anything, it's my peripherals (since all of them, three video cameras, a FW hub, and several FW audio interfaces). So, instead of a new MacBook, I bought a used MacBook from eBay (with FW, mind you), and perhaps a new JVC HD camera WITH FIREWIRE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

I have a hunch that sales are not meeting expectations. They lost a sale to me because of this (the MacBook I planned on buying is now a Lumix G1 camera) so let's just see if I'm the only one reacting this way or if droves of users are voting with their wallets.
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post #1364 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

I suppose that's your way of admitting that Apple got it's market research wrong when they designed that machine. Just as they did with the Cube, the flower power and dalmation iMacs etc.

I wonder if the current MacBook unibody will end up being another one to add to that list?

What does "my way of admitting" mean?

According to Jobs, they don't do market research, or at least not too much.

It doesn't matter where the error was, what matters is that they tried a small machine, but it didn't sell well, so they discontinued it.

The flower power and dalmation color schemes were like Dell offering their models in many colors. Apple had run out if ideas for the old iMacs, and until their new models came out, which were possibly delayed, they offered these rather odd "updates".

The Cube was a great idea, but Apple made it a high end machine with the G4, which was expensive back then. Most people agree that if Apple had come out with a G3 version for less, it would have sold better. Apple's marketing was also piss poor. They failed to get across the point that the machine was very upgradable despite its size. People though it wasn't. That didn't help.
post #1365 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

If you were replying to the second sentence in that quote, your reply was disingenuous. He made it clear that he wasn't stating any kind of absolute fact by including the word might. It was a general off the cuff statement. A personal opinion.

Oh please! Speak for yourself. He's a big boy. We all use the word "might" when we really want to simply say "all" but want an out in case we're wrong. Don't pretend you don't do it also.
post #1366 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post


Look at how defiantly Sony has promoted Memory Stick. Apple ditched their own interface on the iPod and has now purposely sidelined it in favour of an outside technology that won't even be out in the market for a year.

There's a big difference. Sony also produces memory. Not very big player, but a player. Sony also has hundreds of devices that can use memory sticks, Apple has few. Sony makes a good deal of money selling memory sticks, and licenses to other makers. As Sony has large portions of some markets, they can force consumers to buy their memory sticks. Apple has no comparable marketshare in computers.

Apple was not able to force others to pay them much for FW, or to use it.

You can't compare that.
post #1367 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by sennen View Post

As much as i like FW, I agree.

is there a substitute for target disk mode, so when i get a new macbook how do i do the data transfer?? use ethernet??? it was so simple with FW
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post #1368 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

As for PC World, are you sure they weren't clearance items, because I'm not seeing much of anything with IEEE 1394, FireWrie or i.link on their site.
http://www.pcworld.co.uk

there are plenty of FW equipped items on pcworld.co.uk
just type the word "firewire" into the search function on the top right
and sort by price descending

there are FW equipped laptops as low as £399 like this one

you'll have to scroll down and click on "full product information..." to see the connection details
they only list the main features in the blurb
post #1369 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Oh please! Speak for yourself. He's a big boy. We all use the word "might" when we really want to simply say "all" but want an out in case we're wrong. Don't pretend you don't do it also.

Mel this doesn't seem to be a response worthy of a 'global moderator' \
most people choose their words careful and actually mean them
if "might" means "all" to you then you obviously read the forums in a different way to most
(and please don't resort to a 'you're new here' response)

on this thread we're all just trying to get to the bottom of why apple removed firewire
for which no one has been able to give (or get) a definitive answer - but many have good ideas

some don't give a hoot about firewire (ok that's fine for them)
some simply want to justify their recent alu MB purchase
some just don't like hearing that apple may have made a poor decision
some think that there's no current alternative to FW (and don't want to see it go)
& other's are more impacted and therefore more passionate about it

from my perspective it's all good - it's been a very informative and on the whole
an intelligent thread

PS i choose my italics carefully too
post #1370 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Are you kidding? We've heard nothing but complaints about the removal of FW400 from the MB and MBPs, despite the long list of evidence that it was coming.... ..... are you sure they weren't clearance items, because I'm not seeing much of anything with IEEE 1394, FireWrie or i.link on their site.
http://www.pcworld.co.uk

You say it yourself, a long list of complaints about the removal of FW (not just 400 but altogether) from the MacBook. No one has mentioned the removal of 400 from the Pro simply because it was replaced with 800 on this model. Do you not think that this in itself is symptomatic of a possible error on Apple's behalf? One only needs to look at the popularity of this thread and others like it on other boards to see what an emotive subject it has turned out to be.

Have you recently been to PCWorld? One only has to turn the machine(s) around or look a little closer to see the FireWire / iLink socket even though little or no mention of it is given on the sales blurb (either in-store or on-line).
post #1371 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiMac View Post

Up-selling in its rawest form. Plain and simple.

Why not give us FW800 on the MacBook?

Maybe because that would eat into Pro sales. There is your answer.

Then again, some people will just not allow this type of heresy to be spake.

Will they?

Except I said this several pages ago and many of the pro-MB folks agree.

The point isn't that losing FW is some huge plus but that new MB is so much better than the old one regardless. Enough so that the MBP is going to see reduced sales anyway even with the new MB lacking FW.

Some audio pros got hurt but a whole lot of other folks got a MB that can easily replace the MBPs they own. With the exception of firewire (and the expresscard slot) the current MB is better then my 2006 MBP with a X1600 GPU.
post #1372 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

The MacBook unibody was unveiled a little over a month ago. Let's see how things progress it's early days yet. I have a hunch that sales are not meeting expectations. They lost a sale to me because of this (the MacBook I planned on buying is now a Lumix G1 camera) so let's just see if I'm the only one reacting this way or if droves of users are voting with their wallets.

Yes, lets wait and see. But I doubt that the MB isn't meeting expectations for two reasons:

1) XMas isn't here yet. It's hard to "not meet expecations" for a quarter that essentially hasn't happened yet. We haven't even had Black Friday yet.
2) While XMas is the important sales quarter, back to school is the other important quarter for the new MB and that hasn't happened yet either.

So to find out the new MB really is doing will require you to wait until the results are known for Q1 and Q4 2009.
post #1373 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiMac View Post

You say it yourself, a long list of complaints about the removal of FW (not just 400 but altogether) from the MacBook. No one has mentioned the removal of 400 from the Pro simply because it was replaced with 800 on this model. Do you not think that this in itself is symptomatic of a possible error on Apple's behalf? One only needs to look at the popularity of this thread and others like it on other boards to see what an emotive subject it has turned out to be.

Have you recently been to PCWorld? One only has to turn the machine(s) around or look a little closer to see the FireWire / iLink socket even though little or no mention of it is given on the sales blurb (either in-store or on-line).

1) So what if cheap PCs have FW400. Cheap PCs has floppy drives, serial, parallel, VGA ports, etc. long after they were relevant. If you look for FW peripheals at PC World you see how relevant it is. Every HDD will also have USB, and I couldn't find any camcorders that had FW.

2) FW400 wasn't replaced with FW800 in the MBP. It was removed, just like on the MB. The sole FW800 port carried over from last case design.
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post #1374 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

From everything I've heard, the new MacBook is selling like hotcakes. There was plenty of pent up demand from people who were waiting far into the education cycle and from PC switchers.

I have no doubt that Apple will announce at MWSF that the new machines are a hit. Where they have lost is in sales to their core users, and a serious distraction from the uniqueness of the MacBook's architecture (focusing on what's lost instead of what's new.)

It's nice for folks to claim they are the core users to the exception of all other "core" users that have supported Macs for a long time. I guess any pro not using firewire simply isn't a pro.

Quote:
They've also virtually killed any real street cred they had for Mac-only tech. After the dismal failure of the ADC connector a few years back and now possibly Firewire, Apple is demonstrating that they are wizards at software, but don't have the stomach to really push hardware standards of their own.

Because some battles are worth fighting and others are not. I doubt Apple is lacking hardware street cred these days anyway. Tilting at windmills does not improve one's reputation.

Quote:
Look at how defiantly Sony has promoted Memory Stick. Apple ditched their own interface on the iPod and has now purposely sidelined it in favour of an outside technology that won't even be out in the market for a year.

Yes, but it didn't turn out all that great for Fuji though.

Sony is a different sort of company than Apple. The iPod using USB was a move that allowed Apple to cut costs while being able to support the dominant OS on the market. Which was not and is not OSX.
post #1375 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

Mel this doesn't seem to be a response worthy of a 'global moderator' \
most people choose their words careful and actually mean them
if "might" means "all" to you then you obviously read the forums in a different way to most
(and please don't resort to a 'you're new here' response)

on this thread we're all just trying to get to the bottom of why apple removed firewire
for which no one has been able to give (or get) a definitive answer - but many have good ideas

some don't give a hoot about firewire (ok that's fine for them)
some simply want to justify their recent alu MB purchase
some just don't like hearing that apple may have made a poor decision
some think that there's no current alternative to FW (and don't want to see it go)
& other's are more impacted and therefore more passionate about it

from my perspective it's all good - it's been a very informative and on the whole
an intelligent thread

PS i choose my italics carefully too

Actually, you don't choose your words that carefully, while you may think you do.

You are also not very careful in reading other's words, though you think you do there as well.

And please don't give me that moderator silliness please. When they gave me this, I mentioned that very thing. As long as I'm not monitoring a thread, but participating, I can speak with my own voice, which means that if you say things that that are nonsense, as you have, I can point that out the way I choose, as I have always done.

I've always felt that those who distort what is said should be told so in their face, so they won't be so smug about it.

That's the case here.

When you're more careful in your replies, I won't find it necessary to point out your errors.
post #1376 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

What does "my way of admitting" mean?

It means what it means.

Quote:
According to Jobs, they don't do market research, or at least not too much.

Can I please have a link to something that can support that claim?

Quote:
It doesn't matter where the error was, what matters is that they tried a small machine, but it didn't sell well, so they discontinued it.

I think it would matter to shareholders if Apple is putting machines onto the market with little or no market research to justify the R&D + marketing + support etc.

Quote:
The flower power and dalmation color schemes were like Dell offering their models in many colors. Apple had run out if ideas for the old iMacs, and until their new models came out, which were possibly delayed, they offered these rather odd "updates".

I think Apple spent something like eighteen months perfecting injection moulded plastic technology before releasing those iMacs. They definitely had the idea way before the models were released. And the suggestion that Apple could even theoretically run out of ideas must cause Jobsy many a sleepless night. Of course if ideas really were to dry up he could always pull that ace out from his sleeve and put firewire back on the MacBook. The brightest idea of all!
post #1377 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Oh please! Speak for yourself. He's a big boy. We all use the word "might" when we really want to simply say "all" but want an out in case we're wrong. Don't pretend you don't do it also.

It may be true that that sometimes occurs but who are we to decide for other people if that is really happening at any given time?
post #1378 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

Can I please have a link to something that can support that claim?

"We do no market research. We don't hire consultants. The only consultants I've ever hired in my 10 years is one firm to analyze Gateway's retail strategy so I would not make some of the same mistakes they made [when launching Apple's retail stores]. But we never hire consultants, per se. We just want to make great products.

"When we created the iTunes Music Store, we did that because we thought it would be great to be able to buy music electronically, not because we had plans to redefine the music industry. I mean, it just seemed like writing on the wall, that eventually all music would be distributed electronically. That seemed obvious because why have the cost? The music industry has huge returns. Why have all this [overhead] when you can just send electrons around easily?"

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/...fortune/3.html

Quote:
I think it would matter to shareholders if Apple is putting machines onto the market with little or no market research to justify the R&D + marketing + support etc.

It is obvious that Apple does some kind of market research but not the focus group kind you get from consultants.

That they have duds isn't surprising. It's that they have so few duds since Jobs returned with the corresponding home runs that's interesting and above average. That's why Jobs is so important to Apple.

But hey, you can choose to disbelieve what Jobs says about Apple strategy if you like.
post #1379 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

It means what it means.

In other wordsnothing.

Quote:
Can I please have a link to something that can support that claim?

Sure, there are plenty. Here's one:

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/...fortune/3.html

Quote:
I think it would matter to shareholders if Apple is putting machines onto the market with little or no market research to justify the R&D + marketing + support etc.

The justification is the sales numbers, and profits. Market research means nothing if it results in a wash, as much of it does.

Quote:
I think Apple spent something like eighteen months perfecting injection moulded plastic technology before releasing those iMacs. They definitely had the idea way before the models were released. And the suggestion that Apple could even theoretically run out of ideas must cause Jobsy many a sleepless night. Of course if ideas really were to dry up he could always pull that ace out from his sleeve and put firewire back on the MacBook. The brightest idea of all!

What does the imprinting, on, or in, the plastic have to do with the basic injection molding, which was a very well known technology when Apple started using it?

As I've provided you with the link you asked for, you can show us a link telling of the 18 month research project Apple had in perfecting the injection molding. Not a link showing how they decided on, and perfected the design, but one showing how they perfected the process which was inadequate to manufacture Apple's product. I wasn't aware that plastic injection molding wasn't "perfected" until Apple got into the game.
post #1380 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

It may be true that that sometimes occurs but who are we to decide for other people if that is really happening at any given time?

That was the point to my reply.
post #1381 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

"We do no market research. We don't hire consultants. The only consultants I've ever hired in my 10 years is one firm to analyze Gateway's retail strategy so I would not make some of the same mistakes they made [when launching Apple's retail stores]. But we never hire consultants, per se. We just want to make great products.

"When we created the iTunes Music Store, we did that because we thought it would be great to be able to buy music electronically, not because we had plans to redefine the music industry. I mean, it just seemed like writing on the wall, that eventually all music would be distributed electronically. That seemed obvious because why have the cost? The music industry has huge returns. Why have all this [overhead] when you can just send electrons around easily?"

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/...fortune/3.html



It is obvious that Apple does some kind of market research but not the focus group kind you get from consultants.

That they have duds isn't surprising. It's that they have so few duds since Jobs returned with the corresponding home runs that's interesting and above average. That's why Jobs is so important to Apple.

But hey, you can choose to disbelieve what Jobs says about Apple strategy if you like.

Arggh! You got back to the thread before I did, even with the same link!
post #1382 of 1657
Yes. Thanks both. I think you'll find it's the only link to that information. I believe it's also true to say that Jobs is bragging when he makes his claims. 'Distorting' is the word that comes to mind.

Quote:
"We don't do market research"

Quote:
"We don't hire consultants per se"

That second line makes things a lot clearer. Let's turn the RDF off for a second. I think he's referring to external market research. We don't do it 'per se'. Why did he say that if they've only hired one consultant in ten years? What is more interesting is that there is obviously a lot of market research that goes into Apple Retail Store locations. How would he explain that one?

I think we should take his comments for what they are: Complete nonsense.

It is similar to Clinton saying "I did not have sex with that woman".

Apple does lot's of market research. Heaps and heaps. You will find evidence of it in almost every Jobs presentation, Ives interview etc.
post #1383 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


As I've provided you with the link you asked for, you can show us a link telling of the 18 month research project Apple had in perfecting the injection molding.

I can't at the moment. I said 'I think' as I'm speaking from memory but I can tell you where I think I heard those comments. From Jobs himself at the keynote where he revealed those models.
post #1384 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


What does the imprinting, on, or in, the plastic have to do with the basic injection molding, which was a very well known technology when Apple started using it?

Quote:
Steve Jobs:

"The first one is called Flower Power. Let's take a look at it."

The new iMac wheeled forward on its pedestal. "This amazing pattern, said Jobs, "is actually molded right in the plastic. It's not an applied decal."

LINK

After a quick search I only came up with that snippet. I'll try to track down the keynote. I'm talking about the technique of injection moulding as carried out by Apple. Here's a later reference to injection moulding (for Cube), again from SJ.
post #1385 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

Yes. Thanks both. I think you'll find it's the only link to that information. I believe it's also true to say that Jobs is bragging when he makes his claims. 'Distorting' is the word that comes to mind.





That second line makes things a lot clearer. Let's turn the RDF off for a second. I think he's referring to external market research. We don't do it 'per se'. Why did he say that if they've only hired one consultant in ten years? What is more interesting is that there is obviously a lot of market research that goes into Apple Retail Store locations. How would he explain that one?

I think we should take his comments for what they are: Complete nonsense.

It is similar to Clinton saying "I did not have sex with that woman".

Apple does lot's of market research. Heaps and heaps. You will find evidence of it in almost every Jobs presentation, Ives interview etc.

There's a bit of distortion of your own going on here.

I guess you can say whatever you want to. There's no point in supporting our information with facts, because you won't want to believe them anyway.
post #1386 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

LINK

After a quick search I only came up with that snippet. I'll try to track down the keynote. I'm talking about the technique of injection moulding as carried out by Apple. Here's a later reference to injection moulding (for Cube), again from SJ.

I read that three times to make sure I didn't miss anything.

It said NOTHING about the manufacture of the cases other than the patterns weren't stamped on, but in the plastic.

That's no development. That's multiple injection technique. It's been used in plastic for decades.

So you won't believe the words of Jobs himself about market research, and come up with a highly tortured explanation that totally distorts his words, but you use a statement by him that says nothing about that you've said, as partial proof of your statement?

See anything wrong there?
post #1387 of 1657
Some of the latest scoop on USB 3 and Firewire.

Too bad, but it does look as though USB 3 will likely be pushed back to 2010, as some have (hopefully it seemed) guessed.

As I've now said numerous times, I think Apple jumped the gun here, but they are ahead of the trend that will follow more severely, and that has actually started.

But, I do agree with Joel's statements about FW. Or rather, his statements agree with mine.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...s-in-2010.html
post #1388 of 1657
Here's another one.

Apparently, we're all right to some extent. It's should (hopefully) to be in computers in late 2009, but consumer devices will arrive in 2010.

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/0,1...9554846,00.htm
post #1389 of 1657
some more food for thought
Microsoft's view on FW

and this is a good summary of the situation
by Oxford semiconductor
note the CPU load of USB vs FW
and that FW800 has the bandwidth to "meet current maximum hard drive performance"
(ie USB3 or ESata won't get you any further - not to say that they're not faster per se)
post #1390 of 1657
There are a small number of posters who continue to act like little school girls by primarily posting about each other instead of the subject. Can it stop as it's messing up this thread big time?
post #1391 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I read that three times to make sure I didn't miss anything.

It said NOTHING about the manufacture of the cases other than the patterns weren't stamped on, but in the plastic.

That's no development. That's multiple injection technique. It's been used in plastic for decades.

So you won't believe the words of Jobs himself about market research, and come up with a highly tortured explanation that totally distorts his words, but you use a statement by him that says nothing about that you've said, as partial proof of your statement?

See anything wrong there?

I gave you a reference to where I think Jobs himself mentioned the eighteen months developing the techniques. The only bit I haven't located so far is an actual copy of the keynote address where he introduced those macs (MacWorld Tokyo 2001). When I locate a copy (and I said I was looking for one) I'll extract the necessary quotes. In the meantime I provided some links to what Jobs himself had to say at that same conference. From the links provided it seems that the technique used was new. NOT injection moulding as a technology but the way Apple used it. This was further defined in the other link that states that Apple had to design new injection moulding tools to achieve the results it wanted.

I made it very clear that I am speaking from memory. That's how I remember it from 2001.

Can you provide any links to the type of injection moulding that Apple used prior to it being used by Apple? The reason I ask is, if you can provide such a link, why on earth did SJ even bother to give the issue any keynote space at all? Could it be that the technique was new?

On the other issue I find my comments on Market Research to be far from tortured. I posed a question. Why did he throw 'per se' into the picture if Apple doesn't use MR?

My explanation is very clear.
post #1392 of 1657
And yes, I agree. The subject of injection moulding is not on topic so when I find the relevant quotes that bit can be put to rest.
post #1393 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

It is obvious that Apple does some kind of market research but not the focus group kind you get from consultants.

That they have duds isn't surprising. It's that they have so few duds since Jobs returned with the corresponding home runs that's interesting and above average. That's why Jobs is so important to Apple.

But hey, you can choose to disbelieve what Jobs says about Apple strategy if you like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

Yes. Thanks both. I think you'll find it's the only link to that information. I believe it's also true to say that Jobs is bragging when he makes his claims. 'Distorting' is the word that comes to mind.

It's not distorting. Jobs is clearly stating that market trends is less important than making things that they are proud of. That is their strategy...not to chase the market but to define it for themselves.

Quote:
That second line makes things a lot clearer. Let's turn the RDF off for a second. I think he's referring to external market research. We don't do it 'per se'. Why did he say that if they've only hired one consultant in ten years? What is more interesting is that there is obviously a lot of market research that goes into Apple Retail Store locations. How would he explain that one?

What RDF? I clearly stated that Apple does market research and if you bothered to even google it you'd find market research work mentioned on Apple's own site.

"In Product Marketing there are opportunities to work across just about every discipline of the company, from market research to product design, engineering to legal and finance, industrial design to sales, manufacturing to customers, you name it."

http://www.apple.com/jobs/us/pro/marketing/scenes.html

Quote:
I think we should take his comments for what they are: Complete nonsense.

Only because you disagree that the removal of FW was something they didn't do out of spite.

Apple's strategy may not be one you agree with but it does work for Apple and it has more successes than failures under Jobs.

Quote:
It is similar to Clinton saying "I did not have sex with that woman".

Apple does lot's of market research. Heaps and heaps. You will find evidence of it in almost every Jobs presentation, Ives interview etc.

Strawman. At least for me. The point isn't that market research doesn't happen at Apple but that it's not the primary driver for Apple. You may think that "we just want to make great products" is spin but it isn't. It's the corporate culture at Apple just like market dominance is the corporate culture at Microsoft. Even the scoffed at "You can make money without doing evil" at Google is a real part of their corporate culture (#6 as it happens...#1 is Focus on the user and all else follows). These companies may misstep or have to make compromises but they all do strive toward their corporate goals that is in harmony with their corporate cultures (market dominance as a corporate goal with Apple's culture would be a failure and was in the 90s).

That is what great companies great and average companies average. A commitment (and good execution) at the top to a focused corporate goal and culture vs market research/spreadsheet driven.

Apple has decided that FW isn't needed for the MB moving forward for the next couple years. Expansion (and to a lesser extent size) is the differentiation between their consumer and pro lines now that graphics and computing power is not. Hence no expresscard or FW on the MBs.
post #1394 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

some more food for thought
Microsoft's view on FW

and this is a good summary of the situation
by Oxford semiconductor
note the CPU load of USB vs FW
and that FW800 has the bandwidth to "meet current maximum hard drive performance"
(ie USB3 or ESata won't get you any further - not to say that they're not faster per se)

It's simply wrong, and there have been many tests that show that, including the one I posted a few days ago from BareFeats. SATA just kills FW800.

Gee, I wonder why Oxford, the biggest producer of FW conversion chips would try to have us think this? Could it be because they're seeing their business shrivel up?

It's interesting that it seems virtually no one supports FW800 in their computers except Apple. It's almost all FW400. That was also in a posting I made.
post #1395 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

I gave you a reference to where I think Jobs himself mentioned the eighteen months developing the techniques. The only bit I haven't located so far is an actual copy of the keynote address where he introduced those macs (MacWorld Tokyo 2001). When I locate a copy (and I said I was looking for one) I'll extract the necessary quotes. In the meantime I provided some links to what Jobs himself had to say at that same conference. From the links provided it seems that the technique used was new. NOT injection moulding as a technology but the way Apple used it. This was further defined in the other link that states that Apple had to design new injection moulding tools to achieve the results it wanted.

I made it very clear that I am speaking from memory. That's how I remember it from 2001.

Can you provide any links to the type of injection moulding that Apple used prior to it being used by Apple? The reason I ask is, if you can provide such a link, why on earth did SJ even bother to give the issue any keynote space at all? Could it be that the technique was new?

On the other issue I find my comments on Market Research to be far from tortured. I posed a question. Why did he throw 'per se' into the picture if Apple doesn't use MR?

My explanation is very clear.

You only gave that one link, and it didn't say anything other than the fact that the pictures, designs, were not one the surface but in it.

How does that support anything? Where did it talk about new molding technologies? It didn't.

The only difference in the Cube molds were that the molding lines (which were there, as Apple admitted after people were reporting cracks in the case) were finer than usual. All Apple did there was to tighten up the tolerances between the moulding parts. Nothing more.

And it has nothing to do with the with the Flower Power iMac cases.

And I don't have to come up with anything here, you do!

You were the one who made the initial statement, and so you are the one responsible to support it.

Yes, you would think YOUR statements were just fine. But you did distort his remarks.
post #1396 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It's simply wrong, and there have been many tests that show that, including the one I posted a few days ago from BareFeats. SATA just kills FW800.

Gee, I wonder why Oxford, the biggest producer of FW conversion chips would try to have us think this? Could it be because they're seeing their business shrivel up?

It's interesting that it seems virtually no one supports FW800 in their computers except Apple. It's almost all FW400. That was also in a posting I made.

you're unbelievable - literally - i wish you would just stop responding with garbage
...is oxford the biggest producer of FW chips or is that Texas Instruments ?
TI had 75% of the PC market back in 2001 but that's eons ago and only the PC market
so right now i don't actually know, and until either I do some research or you back up your claims
no one is any the wiser... certainly not for your lame attempts at grinding your "i hate firewire"axe

anway so why don't you just email zach little and tell him he's wrong too: zach.little@microsoft.com
oh that's right he works for the USB Implementors Forum as well (wireless section)
so clearly he's biased towards firewire - no wait. he's just wrong. 'cause Mel said so

and your statements about no one supporting firewire in their computers is also drivel
but again this will be wrong, because you want it to be
post #1397 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

you're unbelievable - literally - i wish you would just stop responding with garbage
...is oxford the biggest producer of FW chips or is that Texas Instruments ?
TI had 75% of the PC market back in 2001 but that's eons ago and only the PC market
so right now i don't actually know, and until either I do some research or you back up your claims
no one is any the wiser... certainly not for your lame attempts at grinding your "i hate firewire"axe

anway so why don't you just email zach little and tell him he's wrong too: zach.little@microsoft.com
oh that's right he works for the USB Implementors Forum as well (wireless section)
so clearly he's biased towards firewire - no wait. he's just wrong. 'cause Mel said so

and your statements about no one supporting firewire in their computers is also drivel
but again this will be wrong, because you want it to be

Don't you actually ever read what I say? I guess not.

I said that:

Quote:
Oxford, the biggest producer of conversion chips

Conversion, of course, meaning bridging.

TI may be the biggest supplier of FW controller chips overall, but not for what Oxford makes.

http://www.wiebetech.com/whitepapers...eevolution.pdf

Ok, since I can't find articles that saying anything other than Oxford being ONE of the biggest FW conversion (bridge) chips makers, I'll have to modify my statement to them being ONE of the biggest, unless I get lucky and find what I'm looking for.


This is really stupid. I don't hate FW. I just recognize what you don't, that's it's on the way out.

This article gives a good idea why:

http://techthoughts.org/2007/12/21/f...3200-mbps-why/

And where did I say that, as you say "no one supporting firewire in their computers"?

Can you find that statement from me? Have you actually been here all this time? Do you have a memory loss so that you can't remember what you've just read?

Quote:
It's interesting that it seems virtually no one supports FW800 in their computers except Apple. It's almost all FW400. That was also in a posting I made.

That was what I DID say in that post, and to which you were referring.

I think everyone here can see that it isn't my writing that's at fault, as you keep insisting, but your poor comprehension.
post #1398 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

What RDF? I clearly stated that Apple does market research and if you bothered to even google it you'd find market research work mentioned on Apple's own site.

"In Product Marketing there are opportunities to work across just about every discipline of the company, from market research to product design, engineering to legal and finance, industrial design to sales, manufacturing to customers, you name it."

http://www.apple.com/jobs/us/pro/marketing/scenes.html

vinea, I wasn't referring to you but to Jobs and his famous RDF. We all know that we must take everything he says with a pinch of salt (especially if he's talking something up). It's often better to look at what he doesn't say than what he does say.

Notice how he skipped all mention of firewire on the MacBooks (to the point of not even including a port slide).
post #1399 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

anway so why don't you just email zach little and tell him he's wrong too: zach.little@microsoft.com
oh that's right he works for the USB Implementors Forum as well (wireless section)
so clearly he's biased towards firewire - no wait. he's just wrong. 'cause Mel said so

The new 1394b stack will be released in the next version of windows:

"Currently, there are not plans for down-level support
– This includes Vista and XP and server releases
– Reason for this is a lack of significant OEM demand"

Slide 4

Perhaps you should email him and tell him that there IS significant OEM demand for Firewire and that you don't want to wait for Windows 7 (rumored to be slated for 2009) for FW800 support.

Of course MS promised 1394b support in Vista but at least Win7 isn't far away. If they don't slip, Win7 and FW800 support will even be here before USB3. Wanna bet that USB3 support appears for Vista when it shows up?

"No prioritization has changed
– Microsoft strongly supports USB 3.0 (translation: Mr. Handwriting meet Mr. Wall.)
– We realize the broad customer base and need for 1394 support (translation: we realized that we could punt on supporting FW800 for Vista and no one really cared)
- No plans to support Hana or Wireless 1394."

Slide 6

Too bad for HANA eh?
post #1400 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

vinea, I wasn't referring to you but to Jobs and his famous RDF. We all know that we must take everything he says with a pinch of salt (especially if he's talking something up). It's often better to look at what he doesn't say than what he does say.

Notice how he skipped all mention of firewire on the MacBooks (to the point of not even including a port slide).

What you were implying was that Mel and presumably I fell for his RDF.

Sure, he does a lot of misdirection and fluffing stuff up. But the point remains that the corporate culture at Apple is not market research driven. There's obviously a big market for an xMac but it doesn't fit their overall product strategy because it would reduce overall profitability and trash their line of AIOs that they wish to preserve.

But even if it were market driven, FW would not be some huge priority. Especially given that it hasn't been for Microsoft if that slide says what I think it said: no new FW800 stack for Vista.
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