Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire - Page 37

Yes its quite amazing how people will come on these boards and say Apple is doing well but they would do better if they followed my advice.

I say if you can show me the multi-billion dollar operation you are running and you just may have some validity to your point.

my iphone comparison was nothing to do with saying "follow my advice"
it was comparing two Apple run product launches and noting the differences
the second product launch performed 25 times better than the first (in a sales rate sense)
due to a few simple changes... changes we can all observe with hindsight

again - you can say to everyone "apple's sold lots of notebooks this launch so just shut up will you"
but if you're a shareholder or apple fan that wouldn't be the wisest thing would it? (not sure which you are)
shouldn't you want apple to reach their full potential?

i listed the statements as my opinion - which limits them to exactly that - take them for what you think they're worth (and that's where your opinon comes in)
and nowhere did i say "i can guarantee that they would have done better if they'd done this"

...although when i look around me at my very limited selection of apple purchasing friends
i can guarantee that they'd have sold at least 5 more macbooks and a couple of MBPs if they'd changed a few things.
and that's not to mention the other (non-student) friends who have gone back from apple to ms because of... price

and ironically, as some people are claiming - apple's new aluMB market is students
who don't need superior connectivity...

as one of my friends replied recently
(after i looked a little shocked that she'd 'upgraded' from her iBook G4 to a Dell)
"hey i've gotta be reasonable... if all i'm doing is facebook, internet, some pics, a movie or two
and a few MS office docs every now and then why would i spend all that money on a mac?"

dumbing down of products puts them squarely in line with lower priced competitors
and then all of a sudden any differences which are there become non-essential nice-to-haves.

and the alu body may be pretty, the use of some components enviro friendly (there's a debate in other threads)
but none of us can claim that these things are essential - particularly in this economic climate

as i've said before, it could be the $999 whitebook which saves the day !

Apple would have sold more only if they had..........

Apple is not trying to be everything to everyone. Windows is which has become its main problem.

If they are only using their computer for the internet and word processing why would they be worried about Firewire?


The problem is that many of you are only looking at firewire. Ignoring the LED screen, the revolutionary new Nvidia chip set, the thinner demissions.


Other important reasons for this design is a thinner profile and a more robust design. Jonny Ive said that the inner works of notebooks can be damaged from cases that flex. The unibody design eliminates flexing cases.

exactly - many consumers at the level apple's currently aiming don't need firewire
but then they don't need all the other things you've mentioned either
do you think an average consumer knows what an LED screen is? or has even heard of a graphics card?

when apple's notebook cannot support their regular prosumer market
it has to compete in the low end of the market, blessed with good looks but crippled with a higher price

and regarding the flexing, i think that's creating a problem that 'needed' to be fixed
(and the problem wasn't even for apple as their warranty only lasts a year)
i quite like the CNC machined case (i've done some of that type of design myself)
but i know it's not necessay for me and i'm not convinced it's necessary for most consumers

yeah take a chill pill on that one \
i said that i could guarantee they would have sold 5 more MBs in my immediate circle.
and in my very small sample that was related to
- lack of firewire / high speed mobile connectivity
- glossy screen
- increased price
- no real speed increase or CPU gain

The budget PC market has nothing to do with this. Lowering margins does not mean you are automatically meddling in the budget PC market. As I said before Apple can lower margins and still sell as a premium seller (at least in the eyes of those who do not already know the platform).

It's a question of bringing prices within range of those who are currently not buying Macs as they see them as overpriced. That's an option Apple has.

This thread is full of words like 'imply', 'what you mean is ', 'you are suggesting'. We have even seen the word 'might' redefined. When I want to say I'm sure of something I say so. If I don't say so then nobody should be suggesting otherwise.

I'm am not implying that I am certain these tactics would be successful but I do think that sales would increase. The question is by how much.

No, but they know that they can now run WoW and the screen is brighter/prettier. They don't need to know the technology behind why it's better just that it is.


Except that it has always been a CONSUMER laptop AND the higher price has always been part of the equation...and frankly appeal even if folks don't say that explicitly.


Necessary? No more necessary than any other performance part on any other high end product whether TV, stove, or car. It is "necessary" to support the branding. Is stainless steel "necessary" for a consumer stove? Or refigerator? No, but there's a reason that Jenn Air or Viking or other high-end maker to have that on their stoves and why folks are willing to shell out $$$$ even if the Kenmore is sufficient for thier cooking needs.

So what? If Apple sold 15 more because of the new design then they don't care about your 5 sales. I can guarantee you that the lack of a decent GPU has cost Apple far more than 5 MB sales.

To what end? Again, you're under the assumption that they can handle faster than 28% growth. I think that Apple is already at risk of losing some of that end user experience at this growth rate.


Except that Apple does not care. Over and over in quarterly conferences analysts ask if apple is going to reduce margins to capture share and over and over they say no.


Then why bother? What is the payoff for increased sales at lower margins if you have to work harder to make about the same amount of profit at the end of the day? Their current strategy has both growth and higher profits.

You can make the case that in the current economic conditions that Apple should lower margins to maintain growth but I suspect that so long as Apple growth is above the industry average (or decline smaller than the industry average) they will stay their current course. And for good reason. Porsche or Ferrari or Viking or Jenn Air does not lower it's price during a downturn. They simply expect to sell fewer cars/stoves/refigerators until the rebound with the understanding that affluent people don't tend to buy Kenmores or a Kia but simply defer a purchase until later. What they don't want to do is dilute their branding because that takes forever to build.

They can look at the screen and see that it looks better. Or they can tell that media playback and system performance is better. They don't need to know how it all works to see that it works better.


The MacBook is a consumer notebook but it does not compete in the low end of the market. To meet the MacBook specifications and performance a PC will cost more than $500.


You really think Apple should no longer care about the robustness of its machines after they are out of warranty. This attitude would not make for good consumer loyalty.

- Gigabit Ethernet is high speed connectivity. You guys are so blinded by firewire.

- Jobs said glossy screens have far outsold matte screens. The market has voted.

- Yes the price has slightly increased but so has the quality and performance.

- speed increased from 800FSB to 1600FSB, 5 times faster graphics boost

Firewire is so important that you really cannot see these improvements?

and you are completely blinded on what is a mobile powered connection technology
go back and read the earlier posts, or read wiki
then come back here and tell me which mobile connections the MB has

what the heck - i'll save you some time... USB2 - that's it.

anway you can say what you want but the market around me has voted too
and that isn't me - you understand that right? no? ok

i wasn't saying "i was going to buy 5 MBs and a couple of MBPs and now i'm not"
i was saying that the people in my immediate circle have stopped buying macs because of this release
that's the market i see... you know that it's them who don't buy right? not me?

and about glossy screen - do you believe jobs when he's in marketing mode?

I thought that that would be clear by now.

It's because they are not the only people buying (or that would like to buy) MacBooks.

If you care to take a look around the web you will threads like this one. A fairl amount of people would like a MacBook with firewire.

Having firewire means having options and they might just figure out how to put it to good use.

Yes, that makes perfect sense when all you need is a FireWire 400 connection for your external HD or FW digicam, not to mention other FW peripherals. \


All fine and dandy when all you are offered is a Glossy screen. Choice? Hmmm....
"13.3-inch (diagonal) LED-backlit glossy widescreen display, 1280-by-800 resolution"
How many people have previously complained about these glossy screens and lack of choice? Seriously?!!


Quality Now that is debatable!


OK. A given. If needed. By the way... I don't need or use the built in iSight.
So, using the same argument, remove the iSight. Not needed. \


If FireWire was NOT so important then would we all really be here debating the point? Would this thread (and many others like it) exist at all?

What exactly is the end user experience? The one where half baked system updates render systems unbootable? The one where they release half-baked major OS updates? The one where they rush product designs out the door and have nasty condensation issues? The one where they completely replace a video port with something that contains copy protection technology that stops users viewing legally owned video content on their TVs? The one where they sell a device at a premium price and reduce it just weeks later? etc. And how about Apple's pièce de résistance on user experience: Mobile Me.

Apple can handle an increase in users up to the maximum capacity of its production.


They do? It's been a while since I listened to an entire call but I don't remember that question coming up too often.



How about to eat away at your competitors market share? To hit your competitors where it hurts, in their finances. To increase secundary income gains. To persuade more people that the mac platform is worth supporting.


A flawed analogy. So flawed that I won't even begin to take it apart.

How much more?

PC's outsell Macs more than 10 to 1. The market has voted. Should all macs be withdrawn from the market? I'm sure some iPod colours far outsell others. Should we get rid of the poor sellers?

Your comment on Gigabit ethernet shows that you failed to read the original poster's comments carefully.

Obviously Apple has learned their aren't enough people using firewire digicams with the MB to continue the use of firewire necessary.

At this point their are no peripherals that are firewire only. Their are many peripherals that are USB only and that list is growing. I'm not sure why people continue to make this argument.



The lesson from the point that glossy far outsold matte means that Apple has learned that most people don't need the choice.

The few people complaining on this internet list are not representative of the larger consumer market.




In a few years we will see if the unibody construction proves to be more durable than
the previous design.




What does the iSight have to do with the system speed?




I think it says more about this internet board. The fact that the MacBook is missing firewire and the larger world continues to go round.

Depends on the machine and the manufacturer.


I don't think these are analogous to glossy vs matte.


Well, please do explain what it means.

Obviously? And there are no firewire only peripherals?

Apple has not publicly stated why they removed Firewire. Your theory may, or may not be accurate but it's far from obvious.

double post

Hmmm, I have to parse my comments down to have a specific meaning. Their are no firewire only peripherals for the wide consumer market.

What you point to is very specialized and more used in the pro market. Which is why the MBP does have firewire.


Well its only logical that if enough people used firewire that its absence would prove detrimental to MB sales, Apple would not have discontinued it. We don't need to know the reason it was removed to at least know that.

you obviously haven't had a good look at the market for audio visual products yet
(either that of you believed SJ outright - which is probably not the best thing to do surrounding a product launch \)

there are plenty of consumer grade camcorders with DVout only (video land codename for 1394 spec) - at around $600
in fact the #1 rated camcorder on camcorder info is the HV30 - which only has FW out (and HDMI but that's for viewing not transfer)
(before you get excited about finding a USB port on the HV30 it's for still images only - not for video transfer)

the vast majority of audio interfaces are FW with quite a number of audio interfaces around $500
this has all been pointed out before (hence why i feel no need to support my vast majority claim a 2nd time around)

...but then again it really depends what you define as consumer right ?
is someone purchasing a $1300+ MB really limited to peripheral devices less than $500 ?
that's a whole new argument - but certainly an interesting one in this economic climate

The word 'no' is a pretty specific one. If you're going to use it in the context that you used it in then, yes, it would have been better to be clearer from the outset.

However, I must admit that I normally enter into the 'spirit of use' for comments where I think that has to be taken into account.

The unit I linked to is not a 'pro' unit.

Do you honestly think that the average consumer will use a "4-In/10-Out FireWire Mobile Recording Interface" that costs $400? No, I didn't think so. If one does wish to use that device with a new Mac, there are MacBooks, MacBook Pros, Mac minis, iMacs and Mac Pros that have FireWire. That is the entire Mac line, except for the MBA. That may not be pro level, but it's certainly a prosumer peripheral.

Take your pick. I'd just like to know where you think the price would be.


It's not about glossy vs matte or mac vs pc. It's about your affirmation that 'the market has voted'.


When I posted, it had already been clarified. The comment was on mobile devices.

If there are plenty then why did you post only one from nearly a year ago. One that has almost falling 50% in price in that time. How many camcorders are out there and yet only a couple have FW in the consumer market. Are DV cameras by any stretch the most popular cameras being developed or sold today? The evidence points to no. What state will miniDVs be in 2009? Hint, It won't be better than it is now.


Why not just use the dictionary definition:

con·sum·er |kənˈsoōmər|
noun
A person who purchases goods and services for personal use.

I feel pretty comfortable in saying that the majority of people buying MB are not using audio/visual equipment that costs $500 and over.

Since Apple switched to Intel components. Their have been numerous and exhaustive price comparisons. Similar configured Mac and PC consistently come within around the same price. At times the Mac can be cheaper.


If people did not by enough Apple products to allow the company to stay in business. Then I would say the market did not want Apple products.

We don't know how many glossy vs matte screens Apple sold. Apple felt it was enough of a difference to go with glossy. Using only one lowers component costs for Apple.


I missed the comment.

Which unfortunately for you, is consistently incorrect. I've just browsed over to the Dell website to see what pre-configured system can be had for the same price as the bottom end 24" Mac. Here is how they compare.

Mac 2.8Ghz Core 2 Duo ----- Dell 2.4Ghz Core 2 Quad
Mac 2GB DDR2 ----- Dell 3GB DDR3.
Mac 320GB Hard drive ----- Dell 640GB hard drive
Mac Radeon HD 2600PRO ----- Dell Radeon 4850.
Bar these differences, everything else is the same.

Basically for the same price, the Dell absolutely wastes the Mac spec. The one thing Apple hardware is *not* is good value for money... it is very overpriced for what you get.

Even more damning is that comparing Apple USA to Dell USA and the divide is even larger. Here's what you get for the Dell spec at about the same price...

Intel® Core™2 Q9300 Quad-Core (6MB L2 cache,2.50GHz,1333FSB)
6GB Dual Channel DDR3 SDRAM at 1067MHz - 4 DIMMs
750GB - 7200RPM, SATA 3.0Gb/s, 16MB Cache
ATI Radeon HD 4850 512MB

The gap is so wide it's almost unbelievable!

You don't necessarily gain much performance from a quad core machine at this point. Because most applications are not designed for four cores. In most situations the duo 2.8Ghz. will be faster than a quad 2.4Ghz.

The iMac has not been refreshed since April. Dell could leap frog the Mac when it comes to the end of its refresh cycle. Apple will against leap frog in performance for cost when the iMac has its next refresh which will likely be at MW '09.

Well as long as Apple put a Core i7 2.66Ghz, 6GB RAM, 640GB hard drive and a Radeon 4850 in the iMac, then they do have the chance of besting the Dell by $80. However, chances are, the Dell will have dropped by those $80 by the time Apple refreshes, and Apple probably won't have anywhere near that spec either.

That is a perfect example of what I've mentioned a couple of time on the last few pages.

Why do people feel the urge to play with comments. I said it wasn't a 'pro' machine. It's not a 'pro' machine.

Why do you qualify the word consumer with the word 'average' in bold?

This machine is perfect for a group of enthusiasts and many will find the unit for less than $400. Even it was $400 where is the problem? Imagine a band (teenagers) who could buy this device for the group at $100 each or less.

Remember: 'not pro'.

BTW, the reason I wrote 'pro' like that was because nowadays consumer equipment is often used by pros. In fact it's part of my reasoning for not eliminating FW from the new MBs.

It's interesting that you neglected to include the full entry for 'consumer' which included the following (my bold):



And if we move over to the term 'consumer goods' we get (once again, my bold):


No mention of professional in either 'consumer' or 'consumer goods' but perhaps it's worthy of note that when the dictionary entry contrasted consumer goods it stated 'rather than by manufacturers for producing other goods'.

It is accepted by all that professionals also use consumer goods for professional use something which, in line with the above definitions, makes professionals 'consumers' and is what probably led the original poster to say:


And let me make it clear that I'm not the one nit-picking here.

Don't be obtuse! If it's for personal use then it's for the consumer, if it's to generate profit then it's for professional use. Are their people buying professional-grade equipment for personal use and vice versa? Of course, but these account for a very small segment and don't account for the average buyer. That is an even smaller segment than the very few consumers that bitch about the loss of FireWire. The point still remains that if you need FireWire every single class of Apple's Mac line, sans the MBA, has FireWire.

You keep making your desires that of the majority. They are not. Whether you like it or not, you have to accept that Apple's goals are not congruent with yours. IF you want FireWire in a Mac notebook you have to buy the cheap MB or the MBP at double the price, if you want a new Mac. If it bothers you that every single item offered by Apple is not ideally tailored to your uncommon, outdated needs then move to a generic PC, which will continue to offer outdated tech long after the ship has sailed.

agreed
"consumer" as a technical definition neither defines what level of income nor what level of product they purchase
(ie low budget consumer can purchase professional level goods & services
and a professional consumer can purchase low budget goods & services - some of the smarter ones do)

however, in common parlance i guess most people use the words
"consumer" for the amateur or family market
"professional" for the business market
"prosumer" for the enthusiast/hobbyist willing to spend lots - but not necessarily earning much from their purchase

IMO the "prosumer" is the type most likely to purchase the MB given the price & specs

also, wrt previous posts i think it's ridiculous to think that people buying apple products are limited to $500 peripherals
just look at the explosion of the DSLR market
(yes DLSRs don't need firewire i'm using this as an example to show that people are willing to spend lots on peripherals)
and the cheapest of those is above $500, ranging up to the D700 / 5DMkII at ~$3000 (which has been mentioned with enthusisam on this thread)

most bands (who are actually going to record themselves) have instruments around the $1000+ mark
so spending $500 on an audio interface is seen as normal (cheap in fact)
plus there are a few firewire interfaces which will record a full band under $500

anyone who argues that MB consumers don't purchase peripherals > $500
is effectively saying that removing firewire apple are limiting themselves to the very low consumer market
and excluding the prosumer / professional market

which (as stated before) puts them squarely in competition with Dell & similar
...not a particularly good thing for apple given the price

you are simply trying to justify your puchase of a MB
and attacking others because of it

it's been noted a number of times out known that FW is neither outdated nor old tech
as pointed out by the fact that
- it's the only tech on high end video cameras & audio interfaces
- there is no replacement for USB2
- there is no other fast(er) mobile powered connection tech on the market
- use of FW is increasing on notebooks (not decreasing) - by 20% in 2008
- the currently best rated consumer video cameras rely on FW

you don't have to agree with that - but simply stating that you think FW is outdated doesn't make it so

just accept the fact that you purchased an expensive non-expandable MB
which will have a lower value than either the previous and replacement models (when they come out)
because the previous will have FW and the replacement will have FW, USB3 or both

i've just accepted that i'll have to wait (with my dying blackbook)
until the replacements are out

and this statement of yours

which i agree with - shows the product line for exactly what it is
one with a hole in the middle... the hole being the current MB
more expensive than the cheaper model, but without the connectivity options (and therefore usefulness to all markets)
odd \

Operative words: high end.


USB3.0 is the replacement for USB2.0


And becasue of that Apple is required to keep FW400 in their entire MB line, despite it being available in the low-end MB, and the MBPs have FW800. The writing is on the wall.


From that link, "Also, most pro and semi-pro cameras continue to use FireWire". That doesn't mention consumer-grade peripherals. If you haven't realized, Apple is marketing the MB to the average consumer. That link also talks about DV cameras, which are a dying breed, and that 20% you mention, which they state as 17-20% is not about peripherals or PCs, but about set top boxes. Besides that, Apple has removed FW800 from the MBP, which is marketed a prosumer and professional machine. FW400 as a port interface is a dead end, you will accept this sooner or later.


How many of the best selling HD camcorders on Amazon have FW as their main output source?

http://www.amazon.com/Canon-HV30-Def...e=UTF8&s=photo
Facts and logic make it so. I never stated that FW is dead, I stated that FW400 is an obsolescing port interface. I also stated that this may not have happened if Apple had had the foresight to use the same port interface for FW400 as it uses for FW800-3200. I also stated that the new design of the unibody MB and MBPs do not allow for the same number of ports to be present, and that the low man on the totem pole is FW400, for the reasons stated above.


Perhaps you should accept that I bought my a unibody MB knowing full well the specs. Perhaps you should also accept that most people don't need FW and a great many buying MBs have never used or even heard of FW. As for the lowered value of the MB, that is no concern to me as I will be giving my machine away in two cycles time to buy a new one, as I always do.


Dying? if it's going bad then buy a $999 MB or a refurbished black MB. This woos me, sky is falling attitude about 2 of 3 MB models not having FW400 is such incredible whining. Apple is YOUR company. If they offer a product you like/want/need, then buy it. If they don't, then don't buy it, but whining about it on a forum makes no sense. Perhaps you should rework your posts into emails to Steve Jobs. They will potentially serve a much better purpose to get FW back into the MB. BTW, where will they put it. I see no place to put it that doesn't involve reducing the battery size (which also had to shrink to make the new unibody Mac notebooks) so ports can be placed on the other side of the Kensington lock or by removing a USB port, but since USB is considerably more useful to almost everyone but a few posters on this forum, I don't see Apple removing it in favour of adding FW. Perhaps they can push the ports together in some places, but I've checked these new unibody machines against other machines and these are already pushed together as close as they can.[/QUOTE]