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Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire - Page 37

post #1441 of 1663
11/20/08 at 2:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Of course they could, how could anyone argue against that. They could also increase the margins and reduce unit sales. If you are asserting that by reducing margins will increase unit sales enough to make the company more money while maintaining the premium branding, then I'll need some proof, or even a well thought out hypothesis before I believe that.

The proof you are asking for cannot exist. If it did everybody would be managing their operations the same way. Everybody would be making money off their premium brands.

Branding is a perception. It's marketing. It's aimed more at the people that don't have your products than those that do. The people who already have your products know full well if the product is really a premium product or not. If you really have a great, premium product it's much easier to retain clients providing they have the cash for what you offer.

Branding is all about convincing potential buyers that the purchase will be worth it.

It is possible to reduce margins, increase sales and maintain the premium label but there are too many factors involved to guarantee success.

IMO Apple's number one concern must be market share growth. I believe current pricing is too high and that sooner rather than later they will have to adjust their price points (especially on the MB).
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post #1442 of 1663
11/20/08 at 3:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Can you point out where I altered your words to say that Apple needed low margins? I said that bring it up you suggested that this was an equivalent strategy to low volume/high margins. The counter example I presented was Dell. For that matter HP works as well.

Erm, I don't know how I should put this without causing offence. In the same post I took the above quote from, you quoted me explaining exactly where you changed my words:

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

Your response is incorrect in addressing what I wrote. The statement was in response to your suggestion that going the low margin and high volumes was an equal or better business model. The difference between Dell and Apple today shows this is not always true and that low volume, high margin can be more successful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7

NO. I said Apple could reduce (lower) margins and increase volume sales. There is a world of difference between low margins and lower margins.

Which bit don't you understand? You go on about how I suggested LOW margins and how it's so wrong but I simply never ever said LOW margins. Please try to get it. LOWER is not the same as LOW. You are barking up the wrong tree. Also, I simply don't know why you have put 'needed' in bold in the first quote (above).

And as I have said repeatedly now, this is way off topic. I refuse to pick apart your post which is full of irrelevant information regarding what I wrote. This thread really isn't the place. If you'd like to open another thread so that I can pick your argument apart I will glady reply to everything you have stated but the truth is I'm all for other people making their own minds up. I don't need to do anything regarding what I've already stated.
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post #1443 of 1663
11/20/08 at 5:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

It is possible to reduce margins, increase sales and maintain the premium label but there are too many factors involved to guarantee success.

Too many factors involved for you but to hypothesis, but you stated that "Apple could reduce (lower) margins and increase volume sales" which implies that you are certain that it would be successful for Apple. Others have a lot of experience in the budget PC market, but Apple doesn't. I I want to know why you think that Apple can do this while others can't.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #1444 of 1663
11/20/08 at 6:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

Erm, I don't know how I should put this without causing offence. In the same post I took the above quote from, you quoted me explaining exactly where you changed my words:

Ah, I see now. My bad.

However, "lower" margins is almost meaningless without saying how much lower and how much higher volume you expect. In any case, they lowered margins without lowering price because they are producing a higher cost laptop. A cost they choose not to fully pass on to the consumer. So what you want isn't "lower margins" anyway but lower price to chase market share. In which case my comments STILL apply. Apple has both high margins AND growth. There's zero need to change until the economy forces them to lower prices IF they want to maintain growth at this pace.

Which they MAY NOT.

Again, they DO not seek 95% market share as you assert incorrectly. You claim this is and other comments "irrelevant" to the discussion and refuse to address those comments but YOU brought that up in the first place.

Yes, many comments are "off topic" probably because you don't want to BE on topic given you refuse to even acknowledge that the MB is in fact selling well. Now you don't want to discuss points YOU brought up because they are "off topic". Like that Symbian thing.
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post #1445 of 1663
11/20/08 at 8:24pm
You are making this so much more complicated than it really is. Apple is making obscene amounts of money quarter after quarter. How you take that and turn it into a questioning of Apple meeting sales projections and costs, I really don't know.




Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

but also
- the requirement (to repay costs)
- the potential (which obviously depends on product type/quality & market)

we have little idea on the requirements for the macbook launch (to make it economic)
and my opinion (based on those around me who have avoided this sale)
is that apple has not reached their potential on the MB launch (due to factors discussed previously)
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post #1446 of 1663
11/20/08 at 8:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

You are making this so much more complicated than it really is. Apple is making obscene amounts of money quarter after quarter. How you take that and turn it into a questioning of Apple meeting sales projections and costs, I really don't know.

Because Apple isn't making machines they want. Therefore Apple must be making the wrong product decisions and could obviously "do better" and folks that point out that Apple is going great are just fanbois.

I guess their "improved" product/business/marketing/pricing strategies can whimsically be called "golden goose optimization".
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post #1447 of 1663
11/20/08 at 8:58pm
Yes its quite amazing how people will come on these boards and say Apple is doing well but they would do better if they followed my advice.

I say if you can show me the multi-billion dollar operation you are running and you just may have some validity to your point.



Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Because Apple isn't making machines they want. Therefore Apple must be making the wrong product decisions and could obviously "do better" and folks that point out that Apple is going great are just fanbois.

I guess their "improved" product/business/marketing/pricing strategies can whimsically be called "golden goose optimization".
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post #1448 of 1663
11/20/08 at 11:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Yes its quite amazing how people will come on these boards and say Apple is doing well but they would do better if they followed my advice.

I say if you can show me the multi-billion dollar operation you are running and you just may have some validity to your point.

my iphone comparison was nothing to do with saying "follow my advice"
it was comparing two Apple run product launches and noting the differences
the second product launch performed 25 times better than the first (in a sales rate sense)
due to a few simple changes... changes we can all observe with hindsight

again - you can say to everyone "apple's sold lots of notebooks this launch so just shut up will you"
but if you're a shareholder or apple fan that wouldn't be the wisest thing would it? (not sure which you are)
shouldn't you want apple to reach their full potential?

i listed the statements as my opinion - which limits them to exactly that - take them for what you think they're worth (and that's where your opinon comes in)
and nowhere did i say "i can guarantee that they would have done better if they'd done this"

...although when i look around me at my very limited selection of apple purchasing friends
i can guarantee that they'd have sold at least 5 more macbooks and a couple of MBPs if they'd changed a few things.
and that's not to mention the other (non-student) friends who have gone back from apple to ms because of... price
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post #1449 of 1663
11/21/08 at 5:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

and that's not to mention the other (non-student) friends who have gone back from apple to ms because of... price

and ironically, as some people are claiming - apple's new aluMB market is students
who don't need superior connectivity...

as one of my friends replied recently
(after i looked a little shocked that she'd 'upgraded' from her iBook G4 to a Dell)
"hey i've gotta be reasonable... if all i'm doing is facebook, internet, some pics, a movie or two
and a few MS office docs every now and then why would i spend all that money on a mac?"

dumbing down of products puts them squarely in line with lower priced competitors
and then all of a sudden any differences which are there become non-essential nice-to-haves.

and the alu body may be pretty, the use of some components enviro friendly (there's a debate in other threads)
but none of us can claim that these things are essential - particularly in this economic climate

as i've said before, it could be the $999 whitebook which saves the day !
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post #1450 of 1663
11/21/08 at 9:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

...although when i look around me at my very limited selection of apple purchasing friends
i can guarantee that they'd have sold at least 5 more macbooks and a couple of MBPs if they'd changed a few things.
and that's not to mention the other (non-student) friends who have gone back from apple to ms because of... price

Apple would have sold more only if they had..........

Apple is not trying to be everything to everyone. Windows is which has become its main problem.
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post #1451 of 1663
11/21/08 at 9:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

and ironically, as some people are claiming - apple's new aluMB market is students
who don't need superior connectivity...

as one of my friends replied recently
(after i looked a little shocked that she'd 'upgraded' from her iBook G4 to a Dell)
"hey i've gotta be reasonable... if all i'm doing is facebook, internet, some pics, a movie or two
and a few MS office docs every now and then why would i spend all that money on a mac?"

If they are only using their computer for the internet and word processing why would they be worried about Firewire?

Quote:
dumbing down of products puts them squarely in line with lower priced competitors
and then all of a sudden any differences which are there become non-essential nice-to-haves.

The problem is that many of you are only looking at firewire. Ignoring the LED screen, the revolutionary new Nvidia chip set, the thinner demissions.

Quote:
and the alu body may be pretty, the use of some components enviro friendly (there's a debate in other threads)
but none of us can claim that these things are essential - particularly in this economic climate

Other important reasons for this design is a thinner profile and a more robust design. Jonny Ive said that the inner works of notebooks can be damaged from cases that flex. The unibody design eliminates flexing cases.
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post #1452 of 1663
11/21/08 at 10:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

If they are only using their computer for the internet and word processing why would they be worried about Firewire?

The problem is that many of you are only looking at firewire. Ignoring the LED screen, the revolutionary new Nvidia chip set, the thinner demissions.

Other important reasons for this design is a thinner profile and a more robust design. Jonny Ive said that the inner works of notebooks can be damaged from cases that flex. The unibody design eliminates flexing cases.

exactly - many consumers at the level apple's currently aiming don't need firewire
but then they don't need all the other things you've mentioned either
do you think an average consumer knows what an LED screen is? or has even heard of a graphics card?

when apple's notebook cannot support their regular prosumer market
it has to compete in the low end of the market, blessed with good looks but crippled with a higher price

and regarding the flexing, i think that's creating a problem that 'needed' to be fixed
(and the problem wasn't even for apple as their warranty only lasts a year)
i quite like the CNC machined case (i've done some of that type of design myself)
but i know it's not necessay for me and i'm not convinced it's necessary for most consumers
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post #1453 of 1663
11/21/08 at 11:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Apple would have sold more only if they had..........

Apple is not trying to be everything to everyone. Windows is which has become its main problem.

yeah take a chill pill on that one \
i said that i could guarantee they would have sold 5 more MBs in my immediate circle.
and in my very small sample that was related to
- lack of firewire / high speed mobile connectivity
- glossy screen
- increased price
- no real speed increase or CPU gain
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post #1454 of 1663
11/21/08 at 1:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Too many factors involved for you but to hypothesis, but you stated that "Apple could reduce (lower) margins and increase volume sales" which implies that you are certain that it would be successful for Apple. Others have a lot of experience in the budget PC market, but Apple doesn't. I I want to know why you think that Apple can do this while others can't.

The budget PC market has nothing to do with this. Lowering margins does not mean you are automatically meddling in the budget PC market. As I said before Apple can lower margins and still sell as a premium seller (at least in the eyes of those who do not already know the platform).

It's a question of bringing prices within range of those who are currently not buying Macs as they see them as overpriced. That's an option Apple has.

This thread is full of words like 'imply', 'what you mean is ', 'you are suggesting'. We have even seen the word 'might' redefined. When I want to say I'm sure of something I say so. If I don't say so then nobody should be suggesting otherwise.

I'm am not implying that I am certain these tactics would be successful but I do think that sales would increase. The question is by how much.
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post #1455 of 1663
11/21/08 at 2:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

exactly - many consumers at the level apple's currently aiming don't need firewire but then they don't need all the other things you've mentioned either do you think an average consumer knows what an LED screen is? or has even heard of a graphics card?

No, but they know that they can now run WoW and the screen is brighter/prettier. They don't need to know the technology behind why it's better just that it is.

Quote:
when apple's notebook cannot support their regular prosumer market
it has to compete in the low end of the market, blessed with good looks but crippled with a higher price

Except that it has always been a CONSUMER laptop AND the higher price has always been part of the equation...and frankly appeal even if folks don't say that explicitly.

Quote:
and regarding the flexing, i think that's creating a problem that 'needed' to be fixed
(and the problem wasn't even for apple as their warranty only lasts a year)
i quite like the CNC machined case (i've done some of that type of design myself)
but i know it's not necessay for me and i'm not convinced it's necessary for most consumers

Necessary? No more necessary than any other performance part on any other high end product whether TV, stove, or car. It is "necessary" to support the branding. Is stainless steel "necessary" for a consumer stove? Or refigerator? No, but there's a reason that Jenn Air or Viking or other high-end maker to have that on their stoves and why folks are willing to shell out $$$$ even if the Kenmore is sufficient for thier cooking needs.
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post #1456 of 1663
11/21/08 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

yeah take a chill pill on that one \
i said that i could guarantee they would have sold 5 more MBs in my immediate circle.
and in my very small sample that was related to
- lack of firewire / high speed mobile connectivity
- glossy screen
- increased price
- no real speed increase or CPU gain

So what? If Apple sold 15 more because of the new design then they don't care about your 5 sales. I can guarantee you that the lack of a decent GPU has cost Apple far more than 5 MB sales.
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post #1457 of 1663
11/21/08 at 2:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

The budget PC market has nothing to do with this. Lowering margins does not mean you are automatically meddling in the budget PC market. As I said before Apple can lower margins and still sell as a premium seller (at least in the eyes of those who do not already know the platform).

To what end? Again, you're under the assumption that they can handle faster than 28% growth. I think that Apple is already at risk of losing some of that end user experience at this growth rate.

Quote:
It's a question of bringing prices within range of those who are currently not buying Macs as they see them as overpriced. That's an option Apple has.

Except that Apple does not care. Over and over in quarterly conferences analysts ask if apple is going to reduce margins to capture share and over and over they say no.

Quote:
This thread is full of words like 'imply', 'what you mean is ', 'you are suggesting'. We have even seen the word 'might' redefined. When I want to say I'm sure of something I say so. If I don't say so then nobody should be suggesting otherwise.

I'm am not implying that I am certain these tactics would be successful but I do think that sales would increase. The question is by how much.

Then why bother? What is the payoff for increased sales at lower margins if you have to work harder to make about the same amount of profit at the end of the day? Their current strategy has both growth and higher profits.

You can make the case that in the current economic conditions that Apple should lower margins to maintain growth but I suspect that so long as Apple growth is above the industry average (or decline smaller than the industry average) they will stay their current course. And for good reason. Porsche or Ferrari or Viking or Jenn Air does not lower it's price during a downturn. They simply expect to sell fewer cars/stoves/refigerators until the rebound with the understanding that affluent people don't tend to buy Kenmores or a Kia but simply defer a purchase until later. What they don't want to do is dilute their branding because that takes forever to build.
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post #1458 of 1663
11/21/08 at 2:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

but then they don't need all the other things you've mentioned either
do you think an average consumer knows what an LED screen is? or has even heard of a graphics card?

They can look at the screen and see that it looks better. Or they can tell that media playback and system performance is better. They don't need to know how it all works to see that it works better.

Quote:
when apple's notebook cannot support their regular prosumer market
it has to compete in the low end of the market, blessed with good looks but crippled with a higher price

The MacBook is a consumer notebook but it does not compete in the low end of the market. To meet the MacBook specifications and performance a PC will cost more than $500.

Quote:
and regarding the flexing, i think that's creating a problem that 'needed' to be fixed
(and the problem wasn't even for apple as their warranty only lasts a year)

You really think Apple should no longer care about the robustness of its machines after they are out of warranty. This attitude would not make for good consumer loyalty.
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post #1459 of 1663
11/21/08 at 2:33pm
- Gigabit Ethernet is high speed connectivity. You guys are so blinded by firewire.

- Jobs said glossy screens have far outsold matte screens. The market has voted.

- Yes the price has slightly increased but so has the quality and performance.

- speed increased from 800FSB to 1600FSB, 5 times faster graphics boost

Firewire is so important that you really cannot see these improvements?





Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

yeah take a chill pill on that one \
i said that i could guarantee they would have sold 5 more MBs in my immediate circle.
and in my very small sample that was related to
- lack of firewire / high speed mobile connectivity
- glossy screen
- increased price
- no real speed increase or CPU gain
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post #1460 of 1663
11/21/08 at 3:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

- Gigabit Ethernet is high speed connectivity. You guys are so blinded by firewire.

and you are completely blinded on what is a mobile powered connection technology
go back and read the earlier posts, or read wiki
then come back here and tell me which mobile connections the MB has

what the heck - i'll save you some time... USB2 - that's it.

anway you can say what you want but the market around me has voted too
and that isn't me - you understand that right? no? ok

i wasn't saying "i was going to buy 5 MBs and a couple of MBPs and now i'm not"
i was saying that the people in my immediate circle have stopped buying macs because of this release
that's the market i see... you know that it's them who don't buy right? not me?

and about glossy screen - do you believe jobs when he's in marketing mode?
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post #1461 of 1663
11/21/08 at 4:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

If they are only using their computer for the internet and word processing why would they be worried about Firewire?

I thought that that would be clear by now.

It's because they are not the only people buying (or that would like to buy) MacBooks.

If you care to take a look around the web you will threads like this one. A fairl amount of people would like a MacBook with firewire.

Having firewire means having options and they might just figure out how to put it to good use.
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post #1462 of 1663
11/21/08 at 4:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

- Gigabit Ethernet is high speed connectivity. You guys are so blinded by firewire.

Yes, that makes perfect sense when all you need is a FireWire 400 connection for your external HD or FW digicam, not to mention other FW peripherals. \

Quote:
Jobs said glossy screens have far outsold matte screens. The market has voted.

All fine and dandy when all you are offered is a Glossy screen. Choice? Hmmm....
"13.3-inch (diagonal) LED-backlit glossy widescreen display, 1280-by-800 resolution"
How many people have previously complained about these glossy screens and lack of choice? Seriously?!!

Quote:
Yes the price has slightly increased but so has the quality and performance.

Quality Now that is debatable!

Quote:
speed increased from 800FSB to 1600FSB, 5 times faster graphics boost

OK. A given. If needed. By the way... I don't need or use the built in iSight.
So, using the same argument, remove the iSight. Not needed. \

Quote:
Firewire is so important that you really cannot see these improvements?

If FireWire was NOT so important then would we all really be here debating the point? Would this thread (and many others like it) exist at all?
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post #1463 of 1663
11/21/08 at 4:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

To what end? Again, you're under the assumption that they can handle faster than 28% growth. I think that Apple is already at risk of losing some of that end user experience at this growth rate.

What exactly is the end user experience? The one where half baked system updates render systems unbootable? The one where they release half-baked major OS updates? The one where they rush product designs out the door and have nasty condensation issues? The one where they completely replace a video port with something that contains copy protection technology that stops users viewing legally owned video content on their TVs? The one where they sell a device at a premium price and reduce it just weeks later? etc. And how about Apple's pièce de résistance on user experience: Mobile Me.

Apple can handle an increase in users up to the maximum capacity of its production.

Quote:
Except that Apple does not care. Over and over in quarterly conferences analysts ask if apple is going to reduce margins to capture share and over and over they say no.

They do? It's been a while since I listened to an entire call but I don't remember that question coming up too often.


Quote:
Then why bother? What is the payoff for increased sales at lower margins if you have to work harder to make about the same amount of profit at the end of the day? Their current strategy has both growth and higher profits.

How about to eat away at your competitors market share? To hit your competitors where it hurts, in their finances. To increase secundary income gains. To persuade more people that the mac platform is worth supporting.

Quote:
You can make the case that in the current economic conditions that Apple should lower margins to maintain growth but I suspect that so long as Apple growth is above the industry average (or decline smaller than the industry average) they will stay their current course. And for good reason. Porsche or Ferrari or Viking or Jenn Air does not lower it's price during a downturn. They simply expect to sell fewer cars/stoves/refigerators until the rebound with the understanding that affluent people don't tend to buy Kenmores or a Kia but simply defer a purchase until later. What they don't want to do is dilute their branding because that takes forever to build.

A flawed analogy. So flawed that I won't even begin to take it apart.
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post #1464 of 1663
11/21/08 at 4:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


The MacBook is a consumer notebook but it does not compete in the low end of the market. To meet the MacBook specifications and performance a PC will cost more than $500.

How much more?
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post #1465 of 1663
11/21/08 at 4:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

- Gigabit Ethernet is high speed connectivity. You guys are so blinded by firewire.

- Jobs said glossy screens have far outsold matte screens. The market has voted.

PC's outsell Macs more than 10 to 1. The market has voted. Should all macs be withdrawn from the market? I'm sure some iPod colours far outsell others. Should we get rid of the poor sellers?

Your comment on Gigabit ethernet shows that you failed to read the original poster's comments carefully.
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post #1466 of 1663
11/21/08 at 5:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiMac View Post

Yes, that makes perfect sense when all you need is a FireWire 400 connection for your external HD or FW digicam, not to mention other FW peripherals.

Obviously Apple has learned their aren't enough people using firewire digicams with the MB to continue the use of firewire necessary.

At this point their are no peripherals that are firewire only. Their are many peripherals that are USB only and that list is growing. I'm not sure why people continue to make this argument.


Quote:
All fine and dandy when all you are offered is a Glossy screen. Choice? Hmmm....
"13.3-inch (diagonal) LED-backlit glossy widescreen display, 1280-by-800 resolution"
How many people have previously complained about these glossy screens and lack of choice? Seriously?!!

The lesson from the point that glossy far outsold matte means that Apple has learned that most people don't need the choice.

The few people complaining on this internet list are not representative of the larger consumer market.



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Quality Now that is debatable!

In a few years we will see if the unibody construction proves to be more durable than
the previous design.



Quote:
OK. A given. If needed. By the way... I don't need or use the built in iSight.
So, using the same argument, remove the iSight. Not needed.

What does the iSight have to do with the system speed?



Quote:
If FireWire was NOT so important then would we all really be here debating the point? Would this thread (and many others like it) exist at all?

I think it says more about this internet board. The fact that the MacBook is missing firewire and the larger world continues to go round.
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post #1467 of 1663
11/21/08 at 5:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

How much more?

Depends on the machine and the manufacturer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

PC's outsell Macs more than 10 to 1. The market has voted. Should all macs be withdrawn from the market? I'm sure some iPod colours far outsell others. Should we get rid of the poor sellers?

I don't think these are analogous to glossy vs matte.

Quote:
Your comment on Gigabit ethernet shows that you failed to read the original poster's comments carefully.

Well, please do explain what it means.
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post #1468 of 1663
11/21/08 at 5:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Obviously Apple has learned their aren't enough people using firewire digicams with the MB to continue the use of firewire necessary.

At this point their are no peripherals that are firewire only. Their are many peripherals that are USB only and that list is growing. I'm not sure why people continue to make this argument.

Obviously? And there are no firewire only peripherals?

Apple has not publicly stated why they removed Firewire. Your theory may, or may not be accurate but it's far from obvious.
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post #1469 of 1663
11/21/08 at 6:27pm
double post
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post #1470 of 1663
11/21/08 at 6:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

Obviously? And there are no firewire only peripherals?

Hmmm, I have to parse my comments down to have a specific meaning. Their are no firewire only peripherals for the wide consumer market.

What you point to is very specialized and more used in the pro market. Which is why the MBP does have firewire.

Quote:
Apple has not publicly stated why they removed Firewire. Your theory may, or may not be accurate but it's far from obvious.

Well its only logical that if enough people used firewire that its absence would prove detrimental to MB sales, Apple would not have discontinued it. We don't need to know the reason it was removed to at least know that.
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post #1471 of 1663
11/22/08 at 2:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Hmmm, I have to parse my comments down to have a specific meaning. Their are no firewire only peripherals for the wide consumer market.

What you point to is very specialized and more used in the pro market. Which is why the MBP does have firewire.

Well its only logical that if enough people used firewire that its absence would prove detrimental to MB sales, Apple would not have discontinued it. We don't need to know the reason it was removed to at least know that.

you obviously haven't had a good look at the market for audio visual products yet
(either that of you believed SJ outright - which is probably not the best thing to do surrounding a product launch \)

there are plenty of consumer grade camcorders with DVout only (video land codename for 1394 spec) - at around $600
in fact the #1 rated camcorder on camcorder info is the HV30 - which only has FW out (and HDMI but that's for viewing not transfer)
(before you get excited about finding a USB port on the HV30 it's for still images only - not for video transfer)

the vast majority of audio interfaces are FW with quite a number of audio interfaces around $500
this has all been pointed out before (hence why i feel no need to support my vast majority claim a 2nd time around)

...but then again it really depends what you define as consumer right ?
is someone purchasing a $1300+ MB really limited to peripheral devices less than $500 ?
that's a whole new argument - but certainly an interesting one in this economic climate
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post #1472 of 1663
11/22/08 at 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Hmmm, I have to parse my comments down to have a specific meaning.

The word 'no' is a pretty specific one. If you're going to use it in the context that you used it in then, yes, it would have been better to be clearer from the outset.

However, I must admit that I normally enter into the 'spirit of use' for comments where I think that has to be taken into account.

The unit I linked to is not a 'pro' unit.
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post #1473 of 1663
11/22/08 at 12:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

The unit I linked to is not a 'pro' unit.

Do you honestly think that the average consumer will use a "4-In/10-Out FireWire Mobile Recording Interface" that costs $400? No, I didn't think so. If one does wish to use that device with a new Mac, there are MacBooks, MacBook Pros, Mac minis, iMacs and Mac Pros that have FireWire. That is the entire Mac line, except for the MBA. That may not be pro level, but it's certainly a prosumer peripheral.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #1474 of 1663
11/22/08 at 12:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Depends on the machine and the manufacturer.

Take your pick. I'd just like to know where you think the price would be.

Quote:
I don't think these are analogous to glossy vs matte.

It's not about glossy vs matte or mac vs pc. It's about your affirmation that 'the market has voted'.

Quote:
Well, please do explain what it means.

When I posted, it had already been clarified. The comment was on mobile devices.
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post #1475 of 1663
11/22/08 at 12:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

you obviously haven't had a good look at the market for audio visual products yet
(either that of you believed SJ outright - which is probably not the best thing to do surrounding a product launch \)

there are plenty of consumer grade camcorders with DVout only (video land codename for 1394 spec) - at around $600
in fact the #1 rated camcorder on camcorder info is the HV30 - which only has FW out (and HDMI but that's for viewing not transfer)

If there are plenty then why did you post only one from nearly a year ago. One that has almost falling 50% in price in that time. How many camcorders are out there and yet only a couple have FW in the consumer market. Are DV cameras by any stretch the most popular cameras being developed or sold today? The evidence points to no. What state will miniDVs be in 2009? Hint, It won't be better than it is now.

Quote:
..but then again it really depends what you define as consumer right ?

Why not just use the dictionary definition:
con·sum·er |kənˈsoōmər|
noun
A person who purchases goods and services for personal use.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #1476 of 1663
11/22/08 at 4:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

...but then again it really depends what you define as consumer right ?
is someone purchasing a $1300+ MB really limited to peripheral devices less than $500 ?
that's a whole new argument - but certainly an interesting one in this economic climate

I feel pretty comfortable in saying that the majority of people buying MB are not using audio/visual equipment that costs $500 and over.
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post #1477 of 1663
11/22/08 at 4:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

Take your pick. I'd just like to know where you think the price would be.

Since Apple switched to Intel components. Their have been numerous and exhaustive price comparisons. Similar configured Mac and PC consistently come within around the same price. At times the Mac can be cheaper.

Quote:
It's not about glossy vs matte or mac vs pc. It's about your affirmation that 'the market has voted'.

If people did not by enough Apple products to allow the company to stay in business. Then I would say the market did not want Apple products.

We don't know how many glossy vs matte screens Apple sold. Apple felt it was enough of a difference to go with glossy. Using only one lowers component costs for Apple.

Quote:
When I posted, it had already been clarified. The comment was on mobile devices.

I missed the comment.
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post #1478 of 1663
11/22/08 at 5:34pm
Quote:
Since Apple switched to Intel components. Their have been numerous and exhaustive price comparisons. Similar configured Mac and PC consistently come within around the same price. At times the Mac can be cheaper.

Which unfortunately for you, is consistently incorrect. I've just browsed over to the Dell website to see what pre-configured system can be had for the same price as the bottom end 24" Mac. Here is how they compare.

Mac 2.8Ghz Core 2 Duo ----- Dell 2.4Ghz Core 2 Quad
Mac 2GB DDR2 ----- Dell 3GB DDR3.
Mac 320GB Hard drive ----- Dell 640GB hard drive
Mac Radeon HD 2600PRO ----- Dell Radeon 4850.
Bar these differences, everything else is the same.

Basically for the same price, the Dell absolutely wastes the Mac spec. The one thing Apple hardware is *not* is good value for money... it is very overpriced for what you get.

Even more damning is that comparing Apple USA to Dell USA and the divide is even larger. Here's what you get for the Dell spec at about the same price...

Intel® Core™2 Q9300 Quad-Core (6MB L2 cache,2.50GHz,1333FSB)
6GB Dual Channel DDR3 SDRAM at 1067MHz - 4 DIMMs
750GB - 7200RPM, SATA 3.0Gb/s, 16MB Cache
ATI Radeon HD 4850 512MB

The gap is so wide it's almost unbelievable!
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post #1479 of 1663
11/22/08 at 6:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrochester View Post

Which unfortunately for you, is consistently incorrect. I've just browsed over to the Dell website to see what pre-configured system can be had for the same price as the bottom end 24" Mac.

The gap is so wide it's almost unbelievable!


You don't necessarily gain much performance from a quad core machine at this point. Because most applications are not designed for four cores. In most situations the duo 2.8Ghz. will be faster than a quad 2.4Ghz.

The iMac has not been refreshed since April. Dell could leap frog the Mac when it comes to the end of its refresh cycle. Apple will against leap frog in performance for cost when the iMac has its next refresh which will likely be at MW '09.
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post #1480 of 1663
11/23/08 at 1:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

You don't necessarily gain much performance from a quad core machine at this point. Because most applications are not designed for four cores. In most situations the duo 2.8Ghz. will be faster than a quad 2.4Ghz.

The iMac has not been refreshed since April. Dell could leap frog the Mac when it comes to the end of its refresh cycle. Apple will against leap frog in performance for cost when the iMac has its next refresh which will likely be at MW '09.

Well as long as Apple put a Core i7 2.66Ghz, 6GB RAM, 640GB hard drive and a Radeon 4850 in the iMac, then they do have the chance of besting the Dell by $80. However, chances are, the Dell will have dropped by those $80 by the time Apple refreshes, and Apple probably won't have anywhere near that spec either.
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