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Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire - Page 38

post #1481 of 1657
11/23/08 at 5:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Don't be obtuse! If it's for personal use then it's for the consumer, if it's to generate profit then it's for professional use. Are their people buying professional-grade equipment for personal use and vice versa? Of course, but these account for a very small segment and don't account for the average buyer. That is an even smaller segment than the very few consumers that bitch about the loss of FireWire. The point still remains that if you need FireWire every single class of Apple's Mac line, sans the MBA, has FireWire.

You keep making your desires that of the majority. They are not. Whether you like it or not, you have to accept that Apple's goals are not congruent with yours. IF you want FireWire in a Mac notebook you have to buy the cheap MB or the MBP at double the price, if you want a new Mac. If it bothers you that every single item offered by Apple is not ideally tailored to your uncommon, outdated needs then move to a generic PC, which will continue to offer outdated tech long after the ship has sailed.

I'll let others decide if I'm being obtuse.

Quote:
Whether you like it or not, you have to accept that Apple's goals are not congruent with yours

I hope you don't find this comment obtuse but as I've stated innumerable times throughout this thread Apple has not publicly stated what it's goals are with regards to firewire (and ironically, where they have stated goals on other issues - 'and now for the other 95%' - they've failed to even put machines onto the market to achieve them) so you simply cannot support your claim.

If they miraculously put FW back onto the next version of the MacBook what will you say then? That Apple's goals are suddenly congruent to mine? That Apple simply changes its strategy depending on what side SJ got out of the bed on? That your affirmation was wrong?
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post #1482 of 1657
11/23/08 at 6:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Operative words: high end.

proving that fw is not "outdated tech"
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USB3.0 is the replacement for USB2.0

USB3 doesn't exist yet - not til the end of 2009 at the earliest - you understand that right?
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And becasue of that Apple is required to keep FW400 in their entire MB line, despite it being available in the low-end MB, and the MBPs have FW800. The writing is on the wall.

no one on this thread has ever said that FW400 is required - just FW...
FW800+ on a MB would be great!
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Besides that, Apple has removed FW800 from the MBP, which is marketed a prosumer and professional machine. FW400 as a port interface is a dead end, you will accept this sooner or later.

i presume you mean fw400 has been removed
again if they replace fw400 ports with fw800
you won't hear anyone complaining... i agree
to remove is another thing entirely
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Facts and logic make it so.

make what so? - you said that firewire was outdated technology now (below) you limit that to fw400
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I never stated that FW is dead, I stated that FW400 is an obsolescing port interface. I also stated that this may not have happened if Apple had had the foresight to use the same port interface for FW400 as it uses for FW800-3200. I also stated that the new design of the unibody MB and MBPs do not allow for the same number of ports to be present, and that the low man on the totem pole is FW400, for the reasons stated above.

so if it's only fw400 which is "obsolescent" then why not fw800

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Dying? if it's going bad then buy a $999 MB or a refurbished black MB. This woos me, sky is falling attitude about 2 of 3 MB models not having FW400 is such incredible whining. Apple is YOUR company. If they offer a product you like/want/need, then buy it. If they don't, then don't buy it, but whining about it on a forum makes no sense. Perhaps you should rework your posts into emails to Steve Jobs. They will potentially serve a much better purpose to get FW back into the MB. BTW, where will they put it. I see no place to put it that doesn't involve reducing the battery size (which also had to shrink to make the new unibody Mac notebooks) so ports can be placed on the other side of the Kensington lock or by removing a USB port, but since USB is considerably more useful to almost everyone but a few posters on this forum, I don't see Apple removing it in favour of adding FW. Perhaps they can push the ports together in some places, but I've checked these new unibody machines against other machines and these are already pushed together as close as they can.

the space issue has been debunked a number of times
if you think they're limited on space just have a look at some netbooks
if apple can't fit an small extra port on a 13" notebook they are really struggling...

ok if you're happy fine - excellent - but then why are you here?
we're here to discuss the merits of FW and see if there's something we've missed
it's been an excellent and informative thread - i've learnt loads
if you're convinced that your decision is right (and for your needs perhaps the MB is perfect) then...

ps there's no "woe is me" attitude here - accusing people of that is more a whine in itself
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post #1483 of 1657
11/23/08 at 7:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

so if it's only fw400 which is "obsolescent" then why not fw800

This is probably why you and Avon keep holding onto your positions so strongly. FW400 is an obsolescing port interface. Gb ethernet trumps it in speed, USB2.0 is pretty equivalent speed and USB3.0 will trump it in speed. FW800 and FW400 use different port interfaces, whereas USB uses the same port interface port from 1.0 to 3.0. This makes the technology backwards compatible in not only the transfer protocols but also the ports interfaces.

Since Apple has never had FW800 on the MB, it seems strange to expect it now, though I wouldn't be surprised if the technology does gain some traction with peripheral support, which seems unlikely with the ubiquity and progression of USB. I really don't understand why you expect FW400 peripherals to grow in numbers and why you expect the vast majority of non-professionals (aka consumers) to adopt this technology with a dead-end port interface that was designed only for 400Mbps, when the time for FW400 adoption was back when it competed with USB1.0.

While FW will be around for years to come in the 9-pin variety, I think they missed their window again by letting USB3.0 get so close to a reality. The high-end, professional-grade equipment will still support 9-pin FW in the future, but it's not likely that it'll ever be a popular option over USB3.0 for the average consumer.
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post #1484 of 1657
11/23/08 at 8:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrochester View Post

Well as long as Apple put a Core i7 2.66Ghz, 6GB RAM, 640GB hard drive and a Radeon 4850 in the iMac, then they do have the chance of besting the Dell by $80. However, chances are, the Dell will have dropped by those $80 by the time Apple refreshes, and Apple probably won't have anywhere near that spec either.

That won't happen unless you want a 4" thick iMac. Neither the x58 chipeset or the 900 series core i7s are made for anything remotely small form factor. The iMac won't be getting Core i7 for about another year and it'll be the mobile version.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Don't be obtuse! If it's for personal use then it's for the consumer, if it's to generate profit then it's for professional use. Are their people buying professional-grade equipment for personal use and vice versa? Of course, but these account for a very small segment and don't account for the average buyer. That is an even smaller segment than the very few consumers that bitch about the loss of FireWire. The point still remains that if you need FireWire every single class of Apple's Mac line, sans the MBA, has FireWire.

You keep making your desires that of the majority. They are not. Whether you like it or not, you have to accept that Apple's goals are not congruent with yours. IF you want FireWire in a Mac notebook you have to buy the cheap MB or the MBP at double the price, if you want a new Mac. If it bothers you that every single item offered by Apple is not ideally tailored to your uncommon, outdated needs then move to a generic PC, which will continue to offer outdated tech long after the ship has sailed.

You're right they're not average consumers, that's why they came to the Mac in the first place. The Mac once stood for an above average computer that met the requirements for the content creation crowd. Now apparently its the platform of choice for trendy teenagers and those who can't see past Apple's product branding. Please come with an argument other that "Well, Apple said..." because the Jobs regime doesn't have a lot of credibility right. Try doing research for once instead of automatically believing what what comes out of Cupertino. Jobs' best skill is playing to those who are easily duped.
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post #1485 of 1657
11/23/08 at 8:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

the space issue has been debunked a number of times
if you think they're limited on space just have a look at some netbooks
if apple can't fit an small extra port on a 13" notebook they are really struggling...

I don't think the space issue has been duped. There is no way to fit the firewire port on the machine. Its also why they went to mini-display port. Using the (already small) regular display port on the Macbooks would have likely meant loosing one of the USB ports as well. Using the effectively proprietary connector (try me, nobody else is going to use it, just like Mini-VGA and Mini-DVI) also gives Apple a measure of added control.

This isn't a matter of engineering, as it is a question of design. The Macbook already had easy access to the drive. Apple simply decided that it was worth giving up that firewire as well as battery life and easy access to the memory to make it .95in thin. Apple isn't a computer company any more. They're a design company who happens to fit in a computer,,,if there's room.
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post #1486 of 1657
11/23/08 at 9:32am
Whelp, I've been following this for awhile and although I can understand both sides, I find sillier justifications on the pro-firewire side than the no-firewire side (many of them similar to the pro-xMac people: "I want it, therefore I am the majority."). I'm surprised no one has gotten a reporter to find out the real answer. With almost 1500 posts on this thing, if 500 of those were aimed at a tech reporter, I'm sure they'd try to dig into it more (there are a few good tech writers, not a lot, and as a former reporter who occasionally keeps his hand it -- not usually tech -- it shouldn't be that big a deal with some sources to find out the answer).

As for the anecdotal "I have 5 friends who didn't buy, so there...." -- I've just started a new film, mostly on location, and just at quick glance, 7 of the crew bought new MB's without firewire. No problem, they like Apple products and needed something small on the shoot, and pretty much the rest went out and bought new MBP's. At the start of movie projects, lots of people find it a good time to get a new computer. None of them need firewire (I asked). These are professionals in the movie business, so take it for what it's worth. The sound guy has his own turnkey rig, so he could care less, as well.

What does it all mean? We either wait and see what happens, or someone actually gets some facts from Apple. Otherwise it's a lot of sound and fury symbolizing nothing....
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post #1487 of 1657
11/23/08 at 10:01am
Quote:
The sound guy has his own turnkey rig, so he could care less, as well.

Sorry? He could care less, or couldn't care less?
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post #1488 of 1657
11/23/08 at 10:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrochester View Post

Sorry? He could care less, or couldn't care less?

Thanks, I always shorthand that and get it wrong because my brain is so very small and slow these days (especially when I'm directing, and what little brain function I have is focused on the film). The sound guy doesn't care at all what we the people think. He has his own custom puppy and nyahny-nyahny-nyahny. Also, this is the first time I'm experimenting with high-resolution video rather than film, and I don't even want to get into the coolness of what those cameras do. But again, firewire not necessary (not that that is relevant to this conversation). But it is a drag that the actors want to see every single dang take on the monitor instead of trusting me (a bad habit many actors have developed since modern video playback during a shoot came in). But I fixed that by hiding the monitors from them and telling them that I'd light them badly if they complained (the 2nd greatest threat you can make to an actor).
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post #1489 of 1657
11/23/08 at 11:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mzaslove View Post

Whelp, I've been following this for awhile and although I can understand both sides, I find sillier justifications on the pro-firewire side than the no-firewire side (many of them similar to the pro-xMac people: "I want it, therefore I am the majority."). I'm surprised no one has gotten a reporter to find out the real answer. With almost 1500 posts on this thing, if 500 of those were aimed at a tech reporter, I'm sure they'd try to dig into it more (there are a few good tech writers, not a lot, and as a former reporter who occasionally keeps his hand it -- not usually tech -- it shouldn't be that big a deal with some sources to find out the answer).

As for the anecdotal "I have 5 friends who didn't buy, so there...." -- I've just started a new film, mostly on location, and just at quick glance, 7 of the crew bought new MB's without firewire. No problem, they like Apple products and needed something small on the shoot, and pretty much the rest went out and bought new MBP's. At the start of movie projects, lots of people find it a good time to get a new computer. None of them need firewire (I asked). These are professionals in the movie business, so take it for what it's worth. The sound guy has his own turnkey rig, so he could care less, as well.

What does it all mean? We either wait and see what happens, or someone actually gets some facts from Apple. Otherwise it's a lot of sound and fury symbolizing nothing....

Thanks for taking the time to read but I cannot see very much at all from the 'pro firewire camp' that can be described as 'silly'. Your 'I want it, therefore I am the majority' claim could not be further from the truth.

Given that in this particular thread you have everything sitting on the table, perhaps you could enlighten the pro firewire camp with something substantial to support your claims.

This is the place where people who want Apple to support Firewire can have their say. Most of what I've read from the 'pro' camp has been very level headed but of course, as I'm in that camp please feel free to show me where that is not the case.

As for reporters, well there's not much that can de done. Many pages back you will have read that Mr. Pogue himself spoke Mr. Jobs with a very poor outcome.

One of my complaints has been that Apple has not only failed to keep its users abreast of developments but that it has also failed to keep its developers up to spec to where firewire stands in Apple's plans.
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post #1490 of 1657
11/23/08 at 11:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

Thanks for taking the time to read but I cannot see very much at all from the 'pro firewire camp' that can be described as 'silly'. Your 'I want it, therefore I am the majority' claim could not be further from the truth. It's the other side

Given that in this particular thread you have everything sitting on the table, perhaps you could enlighten the pro firewire camp with something substantial to support your claims.

This is the place where people who want Apple to support Firewire can have their say. Most of what I've read from the 'pro' camp has been very level headed but of course, as I'm in that camp please feel free to show me where that is not the case.

As for reporters, well there's not much that can de done. Many pages back you will have read that Mr. Pogue himself spoke Mr. Jobs with a very poor outcome.

One of my complaints has been that Apple has not only failed to keep its users abreast of developments but that it has also failed to keep its developers up to spec to where firewire stands in Apple's plans.

Maybe "silly" was too strong a word, but it seems that with only one model losing the firewire, nothing is really "finished" yet, so a lot of this (as with other discussions), the extreme passions seem over-the-top. As I said, I can see both sides, though, except for my 9-year-old son's firewire DV vidcam, I have no real need for firewire anymore, so it's not really important to me. [I gave anecdotal evidence because someone really thought their 5 friends not buying meant something.]

Mr. Pogue didn't do much digging (my biggest complaint for most tech reporters, who just seem to parrot the PR firms and "guess" from reading online sources like this AI). I mean someone actually getting in and finding some confirm-able sources and actually getting to the truth. I was thinking that 500 emails sent to a good tech reporter would get him off his arse and asking his editor for him to actually do some reporting on the matter.

To me, Apple's always been like Ferrari (I loved my various Ferrari's), where pound-for-pound in the specs you could find things that might out-brake 'em, or out-run 'em, and certainly those things that were cheaper, but nobody could out-sexy/out-drive 'em. And those that don't/won't/can't get Ferrari's (as I've always said, one Ferrari equals one child), are either envious or try to rationalize. I see a lot of that in Apple.

I agree that they aren't forthcoming with info, but that's their way. Will enough ruckus get them to put firewire back? Doesn't take much to try. I don't think they will, but, as I said, doesn't really matter to me. I do think that in a couple of years this will be of no importance; and for now, there are other options. If Apple had taken all firewire off of all of their models, not only would that be a surer sign, but it would strand more people.
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post #1491 of 1657
11/23/08 at 12:02pm
There is plenty of room for DVI and firewire ports on the MacBook. The reason it appears that that isn't the case is that those ports were never in the design at the planning stage. One could even add an Express Card slot to the current MacBook form factor but these inclusions would have to be present from conception.

I'm not an industrial designer so I don't know how much engineering knowledge they have but my guess is that very little design work is carried out without engineering teams at very close quarters.
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post #1492 of 1657
11/23/08 at 12:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

FW800 and FW400 use different port interfaces, whereas USB uses the same port interface port from 1.0 to 3.0. This makes the technology backwards compatible in not only the transfer protocols but also the ports interfaces.

That's a very twisted argument. How many port interfaces does USB have? The last I looked at a USB printer cable it didn't have the same port on both ends? The last time I connected a digital still camera it didn't have the same port on both ends.

Is a firewire cable with a 9 pin port on one end and a 4 or 6 pin port on the other end really that different?

However, I have read somewhere that USB 3.0 cable may have to hide a USB 2.0 inside it upping the cost of fabrication. If that turns out to be true what will you say?
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post #1493 of 1657
11/23/08 at 12:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

There is plenty of room for DVI and firewire ports on the MacBook. The reason it appears that that isn't the case is that those ports were never in the design at the planning stage. One could even add an Express Card slot to the current MacBook form factor but these inclusions would have to be present from conception.

Show me where they could add them.
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post #1494 of 1657
11/23/08 at 12:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

However, I have read somewhere that USB 3.0 cable may have to hide a USB 2.0 inside it upping the cost of fabrication. If that turns out to be true what will you say?

It's true that USB3.0 standard includes additoanl pins for full duplex and the wire will be thicker because of it (if it's included in the cable) , but the port will backwards compatible with USB2.0 in the port and data as it use the Type A connector . Not so with FW800 to FW400 which is backwards compatible with data but not the port interface, though FW800/1600/3200 use the same 9-pin interface. If you were to make an argument, it would be that FW400 is a dead end interface and that FW800 should have been added to the MB, but I haven't read any posts to that nature. I've oly read that due to the removal of FW400 that MB sales will plummet and that Apple has effectively shunned nearly all their users and potential users.

As for your comment about the port on the peripheral end, that is irrelevant to a discussion about the port in your PC. The printer or camera or HDD or whatever vendor is going to supply you with a cable that will fit into their device so the only end that one needs to worry about is the end going to you PC.
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post #1495 of 1657
11/23/08 at 12:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It's true that USB3.0 standard includes additoanl pins for full duplex and the wire will be thicker because of it (if it's included in the cable) , but the port will backwards compatible with USB2.0 in the port and data as it use the Type A connector . Not so with FW800 to FW400 which is backwards compatible with data but not the port interface, though FW800/1600/3200 use the same 9-pin interface. If you were to make an argument, it would be that FW400 is a dead end interface and that FW800 should have been added to the MB, but I haven't read any posts to that nature. I've oly read that due to the removal of FW400 that MB sales will plummet and that Apple has effectively shunned nearly all their users and potential users.

As for your comment about the port on the peripheral end, that is irrelevant to a discussion about the port in your PC. The printer or camera or HDD or whatever vendor is going to supply you with a cable that will fit into their device so the only end that one needs to worry about is the end going to you PC.

You only said USB port interfaces! You didn't ask me to limit ports to the PC side. And to be honest, I think I may have seen some PCs with a 'mini' USB port on them. Either way, USB2.0 and 3.0 ports may be compatible but they are in fact also different.
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post #1496 of 1657
11/23/08 at 12:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

You only said USB port interfaces! You didn't ask me to limit ports to the PC side. And to be honest, I think I may have seen some PCs with a 'mini' USB port on them.

What have we been talking about? What a 3rd-party vendor does with their end of the cable makes no difference to the conversation. The only difference it makes in the real world is that it may be cross compatible with other cables that have a USB -A connector on the PC end. I'm sure you do have USB-B port in some generic PC. they are all about the ports regardless of how little use or how out of date the technology is. That is their modus operandi, not Apple's.

Quote:
Either way, USB2.0 and 3.0 ports may be compatible but they are in fact also different.

Of course they are different, otherwise it wold be USB2.0 and not USB3.0, but you can still plug you USB2.0-A cables into USB3.0-A ports and it will still work as before without needing an adapter.

If you don't think that the removal of FW400 was due to edge space constraints then please locate where Apple could have placed them and explain why Apple didn't add a 3rd USB port to the MB/MBP or a 2nd FW800 to the MBP? It's just the removal of FW400 from both machines, it's the loss of an entire port as it was replaced with nothing.
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post #1497 of 1657
11/23/08 at 2:52pm
We at least need to wait and see what Apple does with the iMac before we make this determination.

Apple has a history of getting Intel and now Nvidia to make special chips for them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mrochester View Post

Well as long as Apple put a Core i7 2.66Ghz, 6GB RAM, 640GB hard drive and a Radeon 4850 in the iMac, then they do have the chance of besting the Dell by $80. However, chances are, the Dell will have dropped by those $80 by the time Apple refreshes, and Apple probably won't have anywhere near that spec either.
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post #1498 of 1657
11/23/08 at 3:09pm
OK. So, following that little interchange, can we now look at this snippet:

Quote:
FW800 and FW400 use different port interfaces, whereas USB uses the same port interface port from 1.0 to 3.0. This makes the technology backwards compatible in not only the transfer protocols but also the ports interfaces.

and consider it to be irrelevant to the issue?

I'll explain. I presume your point was that FW was in some way uncomfortable for users as they would have to use cables with different port connectors. Therefore USB was 'better'. However, it turns out that due to the design of USB, users would have the exact same issue, but at the other end of the cable.

FW400 had the same connectors at both ends (as does FW800) with a mini 4-pin variant for tight spaces, perhaps allowing for less cable headaches.
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post #1499 of 1657
11/23/08 at 3:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mzaslove View Post

Whelp, I've been following this for awhile and although I can understand both sides, I find sillier justifications on the pro-firewire side than the no-firewire side (many of them similar to the pro-xMac people: "I want it, therefore I am the majority."). I'm surprised no one has gotten a reporter to find out the real answer. With almost 1500 posts on this thing, if 500 of those were aimed at a tech reporter, I'm sure they'd try to dig into it more (there are a few good tech writers, not a lot, and as a former reporter who occasionally keeps his hand it -- not usually tech -- it shouldn't be that big a deal with some sources to find out the answer).

As for the anecdotal "I have 5 friends who didn't buy, so there...." -- I've just started a new film, mostly on location, and just at quick glance, 7 of the crew bought new MB's without firewire. No problem, they like Apple products and needed something small on the shoot, and pretty much the rest went out and bought new MBP's. At the start of movie projects, lots of people find it a good time to get a new computer. None of them need firewire (I asked). These are professionals in the movie business, so take it for what it's worth. The sound guy has his own turnkey rig, so he could care less, as well.

What does it all mean? We either wait and see what happens, or someone actually gets some facts from Apple. Otherwise it's a lot of sound and fury symbolizing nothing....

yes thanks for taking time to read - it's good to add another person's views to the pile
totally agree on the tech reporter angle, just i don't know any with contacts in apple

also i'm intrigued by your movie set experience - what exactly are your crew doing with their MBs ? and the MBPs?
do they buy new computers because they're editing or because they've just got a new film contract and now have some money to spend. genuine question.

regarding the lack of usefulness of firewire, what are you now using as a connection technology? optical? sata? USB? ethernet? are you shooting film or digital?

PS it was me who put in the 5MB+2MBP anecdotal evidence (and you're right it's exactly that - anecdotal - i wasn't trying to use it to prove any rule) - just as i guess your 7 colleagues can't either,
but as i specified when i made those statements, the people around me didn't hold back because of firewire but because of other issues, mostly price, some gloss screens, 1 or 2 firewire and some all of the above.
there are a few general issues with the recent notebook launch - of which firewire is only one.
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post #1500 of 1657
11/23/08 at 3:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

I'll explain. I presume your point was that FW was in some way uncomfortable for users as they would have to use cables with different port connectors. Therefore USB was 'better'. However, it turns out that due to the design of USB, users would have the exact same issue, but at the other end of the cable.

Why are you bringing users into this? USB3.0 and USB2.0 can be the same port interface. This means one port can do both without an adapter for the PC. FW400 can't plug into a FW800 port without an adapter. This makes the port interface a dead end since FW is moving from FW800 to FW3200, which uses the same port interface.

You still haven't shown me any proof that FW400 is still alive and well. How many new cameras and HDDs and camcorders are coming out in 2009 that have FW400 as their only data transfer? What percentage are they compared to USB devices. Engadget seems to list all the new HW that hits the FCC and what is on the horizon at trade shows so I'm sure you can find plenty, if any actually exist. Finding peripherals that were new a year or two ago and trying to compare them to a new MB that will most likely go unchanged in the casing for the next 2+ years is disingenuous to the topic.

I really don't get why you think Apple should support an interface port that you knew they were dropping and that you knew was a dead end port interface technology. You can say you didn't know these things were gonna happen, but if you really are all about FireWire as you say then these things should have been crystal. Again, it sucks to see a technology get dropped before you're ready, but "such is life." I'm more than ready for internal optical drives to be dropped from notebooks, which would give plenty of edge real estate for more ports, but we don't get what we want, so I have to deal with the largest single item by volume in my MB taking up space that I'll probably never use in the year I'll own this Mac, expect to install SL because they probably won't offer a Flash drive installer just yet.
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post #1501 of 1657
11/23/08 at 4:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

also i'm intrigued by your movie set experience - what exactly are your crew doing with their MBs ? and the MBPs?
do they buy new computers because they're editing or because they've just got a new film contract and now have some money to spend. genuine question.

regarding the lack of usefulness of firewire, what are you now using as a connection technology? optical? sata? USB? ethernet? are you shooting film or digital?

PS it was me who put in the 5MB+2MBP anecdotal evidence (and you're right it's exactly that - anecdotal - i wasn't trying to use it to prove any rule) - just as i guess your 7 colleagues can't either,
but as i specified when i made those statements, the people around me didn't hold back because of firewire but because of other issues, mostly price, some gloss screens, 1 or 2 firewire and some all of the above.
there are a few general issues with the recent notebook launch - of which firewire is only one.

Well, AD's, script supervisors, PM's, etc., tend to use their laptops with production software like scheduling packages, breakdowns, Excel for keeping track of shots, notes, digital storyboards. Also, for keeping video clips and photos for reference, etc. I keep EVERYTHING on my MBP. On-site editors will have a MacPro rig, and some major RAIDing going on (we always have electricity with Gennies, etc; if not plugs) -- all of it stuffed in some Pelicans or something like that. Everyone has their personal music on their computers for their iPods and very general listening when they're waiting around between shots. Everyone who needs a new computer usually gets them at the start of production because the money is there (and because their old one works as a backup... a must on location). I tend to use an AirPort Extreme back at my hotel room (on location) to automatically backup when I come in at night, and to keep all my music on (450gig and counting). I don't have time for music on-set (unless it's for reference for the movie. Others use eSATA for major throughput.

I'm trying high-res digital on this film now that I've found a way to make it a little warmer (I've found video great for many things, but it's never been very warm or emotional -- stark to my eye -- now that the technology has come along, I've found ways to make it more sensual to my eye, hence trying it on this project.)

And I was only throwing my anecdotal in to off-set your anecdotal... no big thang. I've not had much problem with glossy screens (we edit in the dark like mushrooms), but I can understand others' choices. I would love to have more variety from Apple, but I realize they are what they are. I get what is most useful (or sexy -- when I was working on a series in Iceland a few years back, everyone had Powerbooks, and they were so sexy, I HAD to get one).
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post #1502 of 1657
11/23/08 at 4:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It's true that USB3.0 standard includes additoanl pins for full duplex and the wire will be thicker because of it (if it's included in the cable) , but the port will backwards compatible with USB2.0 in the port and data as it use the Type A connector . Not so with FW800 to FW400 which is backwards compatible with data but not the port interface, though FW800/1600/3200 use the same 9-pin interface. If you were to make an argument, it would be that FW400 is a dead end interface and that FW800 should have been added to the MB, but I haven't read any posts to that nature. I've oly read that due to the removal of FW400 that MB sales will plummet and that Apple has effectively shunned nearly all their users and potential users.

As for your comment about the port on the peripheral end, that is irrelevant to a discussion about the port in your PC. The printer or camera or HDD or whatever vendor is going to supply you with a cable that will fit into their device so the only end that one needs to worry about is the end going to you PC.

i don't hear too many people arguing for FW400 specifically
what may be confusing is that people saying 'they should have kept at least FW400' (meaning fw800 would be more than welcome)
but as i've said before most posters are bemoaning the lack of firewire in general on the MB
just look at the title of this thread...

regarding the case design - not sure how anyone can claim it's impossible to add a FW port
i'm typing from a apple 13" macbook which is fitted with ethernet, 2xUSB, 1 x FW mini DVI etc etc
(yes PCI card may be a stretch...)
....so then are you saying that the new unibody is taking up more space than the old plastic one?
is this a limitation of the unibody - or as AvonB7 points out just something they didn't design for?

i would say apple is perfectly capable of putting in another port - but just chose not to
for reasons we're trying to get to the bottom of \
(and yes anyone with a well connected tech reporter friend do be so kind...)
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post #1503 of 1657
11/23/08 at 4:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mzaslove View Post

Well, AD's, script supervisors, PM's, etc., tend to use their laptops with production software like scheduling packages, breakdowns, Excel for keeping track of shots, notes, digital storyboards. Also, for keeping video clips and photos for reference, etc. I keep EVERYTHING on my MBP. On-site editors will have a MacPro rig, and some major RAIDing going on (we always have electricity with Gennies, etc; if not plugs) -- all of it stuffed in some Pelicans or something like that. Everyone has their personal music on their computers for their iPods and very general listening when they're waiting around between shots. Everyone who needs a new computer usually gets them at the start of production because the money is there (and because their old one works as a backup... a must on location). I tend to use an AirPort Extreme back at my hotel room (on location) to automatically backup when I come in at night, and to keep all my music on (450gig and counting). I don't have time for music on-set (unless it's for reference for the movie. Others use eSATA for major throughput.

I'm trying high-res digital on this film now that I've found a way to make it a little warmer (I've found video great for many things, but it's never been very warm or emotional -- stark to my eye -- now that the technology has come along, I've found ways to make it more sensual to my eye, hence trying it on this project.)

And I was only throwing my anecdotal in to off-set your anecdotal... no big thang. I've not had much problem with glossy screens (we edit in the dark like mushrooms), but I can understand others' choices. I would love to have more variety from Apple, but I realize they are what they are. I get what is most useful (or sexy -- when I was working on a series in Iceland a few years back, everyone had Powerbooks, and they were so sexy, I HAD to get one).

it's all good
i like your input and take on things - seriously.
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post #1504 of 1657
11/23/08 at 4:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

it's all good
i like your input and take on things - seriously.

Thanks. Nice of you to say. I'm not much of a die hard anything (Apple, or whatever), but I must admit we made fun of the one guy on set on my last project who had a Zune. But I feel that was warranted, and shaming him with peer pressure seemed better than having to beat him up.
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post #1505 of 1657
11/23/08 at 4:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Why are you bringing users into this? USB3.0 and USB2.0 can be the same port interface. This means one port can do both without an adapter for the PC. FW400 can't plug into a FW800 port without an adapter. This makes the port interface a dead end since FW is moving from FW800 to FW3200, which uses the same port interface.

totally agree - the FW400 port is a dead end
(even though there are still peripherals being released with it)
but lets distinguish that from saying FW itself is a dead end...

and yes it would have been more intelligent to try and keep the same form from FW400 to FW800 - if it were possible
(although the FW800 port, being smaller, is more elegant)
however it's no biggie since FW800 can match up to FW400 with a cheap cable or adapter

it'll be interesting to see how USB3 manages - no jokes
the incorporation of optical is not going to be so easy - for cost, size and fragility of cables
(i''m sure they'll manage though)

one thing i like about USB which i don't about ethernet and FW is the thinness of the cables
FW/ethernet/optical (and USB3) cables are much stiffer and have to be in larger loops - which takes up more space
no serious stress though
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post #1506 of 1657
11/23/08 at 5:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Why are you bringing users into this? USB3.0 and USB2.0 can be the same port interface. This means one port can do both without an adapter for the PC. FW400 can't plug into a FW800 port without an adapter. This makes the port interface a dead end since FW is moving from FW800 to FW3200, which uses the same port interface.

Because without users the whole thing is moot. What was your point on USB 2 to 3 ports with regard to FW 400 to 800 ports? If you say that USB uses the same port connector and FW 400 to 800 doesn't are you just stating the obvious, or was there actually something else to it? What I suggested perhaps? If you were not just stating the obvious then I can only imagine that you had users in mind. If that's the case then yes, FW users may need cables with one connector type on one end and another on the other end. Just as USB users do right now.

Quote:
You still haven't shown me any proof that FW400 is still alive and well

Why do I have to provide proof? And why FW400? This thread is about Firewire, the whole shebang, from technology to ports to users. I'm not discontent with my FW peripheral options at the moment. I am discontent with Apple's decision.

Quote:
I really don't get why you think Apple should support an interface port that you knew they were dropping and that you knew was a dead end port interface technology. You can say you didn't know these things were gonna happen, but if you really are all about FireWire as you say then these things should have been crystal.

Crystal? Hardware developers didn't even see this coming so how should it have been crystal? I certainly didn't know they were dropping firewire (and if you were only referring to FW400 I fail to see why you are limiting your scope) and for the umpteenth time Apple has not made its plans for firewire official so how do you know? And Apple should support the technology as Apple is the one that largely developed it and pushed it. Once again (just to be clear) Apple has not even bothered to say where it is going with FW so we're in the dark. No surprises there given the man in charge.

Quote:
Again, it sucks to see a technology get dropped before you're ready, but "such is life." I'm more than ready for internal optical drives to be dropped from notebooks, which would give plenty of edge real estate for more ports, but we don't get what we want, so I have to deal with the largest single item by volume in my MB taking up space that I'll probably never use in the year I'll own this Mac, expect to install SL because they probably won't offer a Flash drive installer just yet.

It sucks. That's why many have made their views clear in this thread and all over the internet. Thanks to the internet, users have a voice. It is making itself heard and with a lot of luck Apple might just listen (although I'm not going to hold by breath, just my checkbook).

I have also mentioned (elsewhere on the internet) making the DVD drive external as an option to be considered and think it makes sense.
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post #1507 of 1657
11/23/08 at 10:19pm
Ha, that's funny.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mzaslove View Post

Thanks. Nice of you to say. I'm not much of a die hard anything (Apple, or whatever), but I must admit we made fun of the one guy on set on my last project who had a Zune. But I feel that was warranted, and shaming him with peer pressure seemed better than having to beat him up.
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post #1508 of 1657
11/23/08 at 10:30pm
I also work in film. I think is was on the original thread about the unibody MacBook. I told people complaining about firewire that most everyone on film sets use Mac notebooks. Its a professional environment and mostly no one is concerned about all of the things that people on Apple Insider are so concerned about.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mzaslove View Post

Well, AD's, script supervisors, PM's, etc., tend to use their laptops with production software like scheduling packages, breakdowns, Excel for keeping track of shots, notes, digital storyboards. Also, for keeping video clips and photos for reference, etc. I keep EVERYTHING on my MBP.
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post #1509 of 1657
11/23/08 at 10:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

I have also mentioned (elsewhere on the internet) making the DVD drive external as an option to be considered and think it makes sense.

I would believe Apple is headed in this direction. At this point only the largest software applications and media files need to be on a DVD. Its all quickly moving to digital downloads.
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post #1510 of 1657
11/24/08 at 12:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I also work in film. I think is was on the original thread about the unibody MacBook. I told people complaining about firewire that most everyone on film sets use Mac notebooks. Its a professional environment and mostly no one is concerned about all of the things that people on Apple Insider are so concerned about.

yes, but the list given by mraslove shows that people on his film set only use their MBs for relatively lightweight tasks (excel, scheduling, prod software, photos etc)

it is the indie producers, prosumers & advanced hobbyists who'd actually need to connect their notebook to a video camera... i know it's like that in the audio world - most people in upper professional environments would be using much bigger machines.

still it's difficult to argue that apple hasn't lost a certain market segment by reducing connectivity
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post #1511 of 1657
11/24/08 at 6:48am
Light weight tasks are what notebooks are mostly used for. I think there are a couple of misconceptions about the independent film world.

Few people are shooting DV, most everyone is shooting HD today. The best solution for shooting good quality low cost HD is to use flash for storage, the market is moving away from tape storage. Digitizing in real time from tape is the primary advantage of firewire.

Most people are not digitizing and editing on a notebook. Primarily because a notebook screen is too small to use as an editing suite. Most people edit on a desktop with larger screens. I've never seen anyone attempt to seriously edit on a MacBook. A MacBook has about the worst of all compromises to use for editing. If you do want to use a notebook for editing nearly everyone would recommend a 17" MacBook Pro.

Yes Apple is inconveniencing a certain segment by removing firewire. But in the larger scheme that segment is so small as to be insignificant.


Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

yes, but the list given by mraslove shows that people on his film set only use their MBs for relatively lightweight tasks (excel, scheduling, prod software, photos etc)

it is the indie producers, prosumers & advanced hobbyists who'd actually need to connect their notebook to a video camera... i know it's like that in the audio world - most people in upper professional environments would be using much bigger machines.

still it's difficult to argue that apple hasn't lost a certain market segment by reducing connectivity
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post #1512 of 1657
11/24/08 at 8:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

you obviously haven't had a good look at the market for audio visual products yet (either that of you believed SJ outright - which is probably not the best thing to do surrounding a product launch \)

there are plenty of consumer grade camcorders with DVout only (video land codename for 1394 spec) - at around $600
in fact the #1 rated camcorder on camcorder info is the HV30 - which only has FW out (and HDMI but that's for viewing not transfer)
(before you get excited about finding a USB port on the HV30 it's for still images only - not for video transfer)

"Canon also realize that tape-based (HDV) high definition camcorders are on their last legs. HDD and solid state memory are taking precedence, and it wouldnt be surprising if this is the last time their consumer HDV line receives any significant upgrades."

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...view-34401.htm

Yes, most folks are going away from tape and in doing so, removing the last need for FW on their cameras. Despite the AVCHD growing pains it is replacing HDV.

The lack of FW400 might be annoying to some in 2008 but in the future years it will be even more of a non-issue.

The Canon HF10/HF11 is right below the HV30/HV20 and there are many other AVCHD cams now.

Note that in that top 10 list 7 of the top 10 are flash/hdd camcorders. After the HV30 and HV20 only the last camera is a HDV camcorder.

Quote:
...but then again it really depends what you define as consumer right ?
is someone purchasing a $1300+ MB really limited to peripheral devices less than $500 ?
that's a whole new argument - but certainly an interesting one in this economic climate

Prosumer cams are moving to HDD or flash and away from tape as well. Heck, even the scarlet is flash and has USB2.

This was in the works since iMovie 08 started supporting AVCHD. The future is flash/hdd and not tape.
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post #1513 of 1657
11/24/08 at 8:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

That is a perfect example of what I've mentioned a couple of time on the last few pages.

Why do people feel the urge to play with comments. I said it wasn't a 'pro' machine. It's not a 'pro' machine.

Why do you qualify the word consumer with the word 'average' in bold?

This machine is perfect for a group of enthusiasts and many will find the unit for less than $400. Even it was $400 where is the problem? Imagine a band (teenagers) who could buy this device for the group at $100 each or less.

Remember: 'not pro'.

BTW, the reason I wrote 'pro' like that was because nowadays consumer equipment is often used by pros. In fact it's part of my reasoning for not eliminating FW from the new MBs.

"Enthusiasts" are typically not grouped with "consumers" as a market segment. Why is this so hard to understand? When folks say "consumers" they DO mean average consumers. He bolded it because you seem to like pushing the term to include "enthusiasts". Which is a teeeny tiny market segment and a different one at that.
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post #1514 of 1657
11/24/08 at 9:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

yes, but the list given by mraslove shows that people on his film set only use their MBs for relatively lightweight tasks (excel, scheduling, prod software, photos etc)

it is the indie producers, prosumers & advanced hobbyists who'd actually need to connect their notebook to a video camera... i know it's like that in the audio world - most people in upper professional environments would be using much bigger machines.

still it's difficult to argue that apple hasn't lost a certain market segment by reducing connectivity

No one has said that apple hasn't lost a PORTION of a certain market segment. Just that the market segment was small to begin with and even then not all will be hurt or be "lost".

For indie producers, prosumers and advanced video hobbyists, the MB is at most one camera generation away if they aren't already using a flash or HDD camera. FCE 4 supports AVCHD as does iMovie (but you probably want to use FCE 4).
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post #1515 of 1657
11/24/08 at 9:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

"Enthusiasts" are typically not grouped with "consumers" as a market segment. Why is this so hard to understand? When folks say "consumers" they DO mean average consumers. He bolded it because you seem to like pushing the term to include "enthusiasts". Which is a teeeny tiny market segment and a different one at that.

au contraire on enthusiasts / prosumers being a "teeeny tiny market segment"
not sure where you get that idea - particularly for the public that typically buys a notebook in the $1000+ price range
just look at the explosion of the DSLR market and you'll see that there are more and more
consumers are willing to pay lots for semi-pro quality items
(as long as they are near-pro quality... these tend to be informed purchasers)
this may all change in the near term with people tightening their belts

PS the red 1 includes all interfaces (Esata, FW, USB, HDMI) so i'm not sure you can
use that as an example... and the interface specs of the scarlet/epic aren't out yet
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post #1516 of 1657
11/24/08 at 9:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

... since FW is moving from FW800 to FW3200, which uses the same port interface.

This is the core of the problem though.

Jobs' silly, premature cancellation of FW on the MacBook has now set back the entire standard. It is no longer a sure thing that users and peripheral makers will join the 3200 bandwagon, since the MacBook intro has given new life to the "Firewire is dead" narrative.

Whether you care about Firewire or not, this was done in a truly incompetent way.
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post #1517 of 1657
11/24/08 at 10:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

au contraire on enthusiasts / prosumers being a "teeeny tiny market segment" not sure where you get that idea

I dunno...the numbers maybe?

Quote:
- particularly for the public that typically buys a notebook in the $1000+ price range
just look at the explosion of the DSLR market and you'll see that there are more and more consumers are willing to pay lots for semi-pro quality items
(as long as they are near-pro quality... these tend to be informed purchasers)
this may all change in the near term with people tightening their belts

"This growth is being driven by the availability of a number of competitively priced DSLR models. These lower-priced models are enabling point & shoot owners to upgrade their cameras to DSLRs. Although sales of DSLRs are growing rapidly, P&S cameras will represent the vast majority of all digital camera sales until 2013. "

http://www.infotrends.com/public/Con...0.09.2008.html

What we will probably see is the entry level DSLRs move into the upper end of the consumer space while the lower end is replaced by camera phones. But the consumer market is still vastly larger than the enthusiast market. That some consumers are using DSLRs in Point and Shoot mode doesn't change that. The DSLR market is 7% of the total digital camera market (actually, interchangable lens digital cameras but that's mostly DSLRs).

It should be interesting whether the four thirds and micro four thirds format takes off.

Quote:
PS the red 1 includes all interfaces (Esata, FW, USB, HDMI) so i'm not sure you can
use that as an example... and the interface specs of the scarlet/epic aren't out yet

The point is that FW isn't needed for transfers. The MB will work fine with a Red Scarlet. DV/HDV cameras require FW for transfers. Everything else can support USB.
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post #1518 of 1657
11/24/08 at 11:15am
I'm not sure its such a vote of confidence for the future of FW, if its solely dependent on Apple.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

This is the core of the problem though.

Jobs' silly, premature cancellation of FW on the MacBook has now set back the entire standard. It is no longer a sure thing that users and peripheral makers will join the 3200 bandwagon, since the MacBook intro has given new life to the "Firewire is dead" narrative.

Whether you care about Firewire or not, this was done in a truly incompetent way.
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post #1519 of 1657
11/24/08 at 11:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

I dunno...the numbers maybe?

odd that your "teeeny tiny market segment" for DSLRs
is about the same as Apple's entire market segment for PCs

when it's apple then 7% becomes a "significant market share"

when you don't want to agree with my point
(which is that the prosumer market is significant and growing and apple should't ignore it)
then 7% becomes teeny tiny

oh and interesting that your article defines consumer as spending up to 1500 euros (1900 USD)
so what sort of peripherals (camcorders & audio interfaces) is this "consumer" market going to buy?
clearly not cheap ones limited to USB2

Quote:
The point is that FW isn't needed for transfers. The MB will work fine with a Red Scarlet. DV/HDV cameras require FW for transfers. Everything else can support USB.

correct... if you have years available to wait \
remember the Red1 is equipped with FW800 not FW400
i know which one would I would / will use in the field
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post #1520 of 1657
11/24/08 at 12:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

odd that your "teeeny tiny market segment" for DSLRs
is about the same as Apple's entire market segment for PCs

Apple has a teeny tiny market in comparison to Windows. But the Mac market is healthy enough to support itself. Likewise the prosumer market obviously.

Is it significant? Mostly from the perspective that Apple has a lot of mindshare as well.

Quote:
(which is that the prosumer market is significant and growing and apple should't ignore it) then 7% becomes teeny tiny

Sure. For it's pro model. And it does. Frankly the MB is still a great laptop for that market. DSLR folks shouldn't have much issue with a MB beyond the same issues that any TN panel has with colors.

Quote:
oh and interesting that your article defines consumer as spending up to 1500 euros (1900 USD)
so what sort of peripherals (camcorders & audio interfaces) is this "consumer" market going to buy?
clearly not cheap ones limited to USB2

Yah right. The average consumer buys $1900 camcorders. Whatever.

Quote:
correct... if you have years available to wait \

The cameras are here today and make up 7/10ths of the top ten on the list you posted.

But hey, you choose to ignore that eh?

Quote:
remember the Red1 is equipped with FW800 not FW400
i know which one would I would / will use in the field

Yah, eSATA.
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