Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire - Page 39

au contraire on enthusiasts / prosumers being a "teeeny tiny market segment"
not sure where you get that idea - particularly for the public that typically buys a notebook in the $1000+ price range
just look at the explosion of the DSLR market and you'll see that there are more and more
consumers are willing to pay lots for semi-pro quality items
(as long as they are near-pro quality... these tend to be informed purchasers)
this may all change in the near term with people tightening their belts

PS the red 1 includes all interfaces (Esata, FW, USB, HDMI) so i'm not sure you can
use that as an example... and the interface specs of the scarlet/epic aren't out yet

This is the core of the problem though.

Jobs' silly, premature cancellation of FW on the MacBook has now set back the entire standard. It is no longer a sure thing that users and peripheral makers will join the 3200 bandwagon, since the MacBook intro has given new life to the "Firewire is dead" narrative.

Whether you care about Firewire or not, this was done in a truly incompetent way.

I dunno...the numbers maybe?


"This growth is being driven by the availability of a number of competitively priced DSLR models. These lower-priced models are enabling point & shoot owners to upgrade their cameras to DSLRs. Although sales of DSLRs are growing rapidly, P&S cameras will represent the vast majority of all digital camera sales until 2013. "

http://www.infotrends.com/public/Con...0.09.2008.html

What we will probably see is the entry level DSLRs move into the upper end of the consumer space while the lower end is replaced by camera phones. But the consumer market is still vastly larger than the enthusiast market. That some consumers are using DSLRs in Point and Shoot mode doesn't change that. The DSLR market is 7% of the total digital camera market (actually, interchangable lens digital cameras but that's mostly DSLRs).

It should be interesting whether the four thirds and micro four thirds format takes off.


The point is that FW isn't needed for transfers. The MB will work fine with a Red Scarlet. DV/HDV cameras require FW for transfers. Everything else can support USB.

I'm not sure its such a vote of confidence for the future of FW, if its solely dependent on Apple.

odd that your "teeeny tiny market segment" for DSLRs
is about the same as Apple's entire market segment for PCs

when it's apple then 7% becomes a "significant market share"

when you don't want to agree with my point
(which is that the prosumer market is significant and growing and apple should't ignore it)
then 7% becomes teeny tiny

oh and interesting that your article defines consumer as spending up to 1500 euros (1900 USD)
so what sort of peripherals (camcorders & audio interfaces) is this "consumer" market going to buy?
clearly not cheap ones limited to USB2


correct... if you have years available to wait \
remember the Red1 is equipped with FW800 not FW400
i know which one would I would / will use in the field

Apple has a teeny tiny market in comparison to Windows. But the Mac market is healthy enough to support itself. Likewise the prosumer market obviously.

Is it significant? Mostly from the perspective that Apple has a lot of mindshare as well.


Sure. For it's pro model. And it does. Frankly the MB is still a great laptop for that market. DSLR folks shouldn't have much issue with a MB beyond the same issues that any TN panel has with colors.


Yah right. The average consumer buys $1900 camcorders. Whatever.


The cameras are here today and make up 7/10ths of the top ten on the list you posted.

But hey, you choose to ignore that eh?


Yah, eSATA.

mindshare is one thing apple is losing - and fast.
lucky they still have monopoly on their OS to keep people stuck to their hardware.


yaaaaah - read up what i said earlier
(no DSLR user worries about firewire - i'm using the stats to show a trend)

your article - quote it, own it.


not ignoring it at all - as i pointed out those people buying cheaper cameras will probably be buying cheaper notebooks too...
a region apple is not so competitive in.

the "years to wait" was for your USB2 to finish transferring 16GB of data :/


no you wouldn't because if you were in the field (or on a plane or in an airport or in a crowded cafe)
because there wouldn't be power - so eSata and its associated wall wart wouldn't work
(not to mention that FW800 is as fast as the current HDD write speeds... but you choose what you like \)

Apple is losing mindshare.


Those cameras are not cheaper. The HF10 is about the same price as the HV30.

What evidence is their that Apple is loosing mindshare. Outside of you placing a sequence of words together that say so.

talk about stringing words together... \
check all the mac forums - the mindshare repercussions of this latest release
won't be (able to be) measured for a while
and it's not just firewire, it's pricing, screens, DRM, mobile me, hardware issues, lacklustre product releases etc etc

do you honestly think apple is gaining mindshare in the segment?
either amongst their staunchest fans or elsewhere?

(but yes no question of them gaining within the smartphone segment)

If they are talking about Apple it means they are thinking about Apple. Mindhsare is lost when no one is talking or thinking about you anymore.

People complaining on the internet doesn't accurately define what the larger market feels. The better Apple does the more nameless faceless people on the lists and boards complain.

I hate to be a nit-picker but let's be reasonable here. The point was that Apple was losing mindshare. There's a difference between losing (having less and less) and what you're comparing to (having none).

How is Apple doing 'better' exactly (apart from sales and profits)? I ask because few are complaining about those aspects (sales/profits).

Again what evidence is there that Apple is loosing mind share at all? Every event that happens with Apple is reported across the entire web. Place any tag into a Google search with Apple and you get 10 pages of reports about the most mundane detail.

Sales/profits are the barometer of how we judge the wellness of a company. People on the internet don't reflect the larger consumer market. If anything I would say these internet lists are not at all in step with the larger consumer market. This is the only place I see where anyone really cares about firewire.

My problem is not the weight so much as the size. I travel via airplane several times a year and I tend to travel light. I have one piece of luggage-a carry on bag-which I take with me. It has a detachable backpack that I put under the seat in front of me. It's that backpack that usually contains my laptop. The 12" Powerbook/iBook fit into it quite nicely and the 13" MacBook just barely fits into it. Which means the 15" MacBook Pro is out of the question for me. I just can't take it with me and I don't see any reason why I should have to buy 2 different sized laptops to cover all situations.

I've been meaning to get back to this thread for a few weeks but I've been busy. I had an experience earlier this month where I had to migrate the contents of a 12" iBook to one of the new MacBooks. I was looking at transferring about 28-29 GB worth of data from one computer to another via a 802.11g network connection. It was awful! I was at it over 3 hours and I still didn't get everything. I'm currently shopping around for a USB drive to carry around with me in those situations but when I think about how much faster the transfer would have been via FireWire I become annoyed with what Apple did buy leaving FireWire off the new computer. I bet the new MacBook owners would have been willing to pay the extra $$ to Apple for the FireWire port if it meant they would have had to have paid me less money to do the transfer. (I had to boot the old computer into Target Disk Mode, plug it into mine since the Airport on the old computer was broken.)(Oh, and the ethernet was broken as well.)

You also have the option of data transfer through Ethernet connection. Which is faster than Firewire, significantly faster than Wifi.

If you notice I mentioned the Ethernet port on the unit was dead.

I think Apple was between a rock and a hard place so Steve Jobs had to make an executive decision, which is very similar to what happened when Apple first started using Intel processors. I am sure Apple would have preferred every Mac using Intel processors to start off 64-bit, but they had to start somewhere. I can still recall the complaints about the iMac going from 64-bit PPC to 32-bit x86.

The good news is, at least according to Wikipedia, the USB 3.0 specifications are complete as of November 17, 2008, and hardware manufacturers can start working on peripherals. The MacBook was updated with a Penryn processor just four months after it was updated with Santa Rosa so I expect Apple to get USB 3.0 into the MacBook and MacBook Pro ASAP.

And if the FW port was broken you'd have the same issue. So what?

what rock and which hard place?

finding the (correct) answer to that question is the entire point of this thread.

USB3 in the notebook line would be great (to replace USB2 - still can't replace FW obviously)
but as I replied to your other post in one of the 'future' threads (and has been stated here a number of times)
it won't be out for a while (late 2009 / early 2010)

Intel have only (just) released their draft host controller spec
...so you're right, it's only the peripheral makers who can start work just now

Wow ..can't believe some of y'all still have the energy to fight this battle.

Everyday I'm reminded of just how out of touch Apple has become.

$1300 Macbook with USB and Ethernet as the primary connectivity.

NOT HOT

http://www.macopinion.com/index.php/...aps_they_will/

Lenovo Netbook




You've gotta be kidding. When Lenovo can put a USB port on a Netbook and Expresscard34 slots Apple has not one freakin' excuse.

There is a major difference between the machines, so much so that outside of being notebooks they aren't even comparable. The processing abilities, the quality, size & type of the major components used are vastly superior in the MBA over any netbook. Because Lenovo makes a really thick notebook doesn't mean that Apple should. I wonder which company has gained more net profit from their efforts?

"The excuse has been floated that there simply wasn't room for FireWire or an ExpressCard slot in the slimmed-down unibody case, but I find it difficult to buy that. Of course the old school MacBook had no ExpressCard slot either, and the preceding iBook no CardBus slot -- more a matter of market placement than lack of room."

Even if Apple makes a netbook it sure as hell won't have an expresscard 34 slot. And I really doubt an Apple netbook. I get the impression that as far as Apple is concerned the iPhone/iTouch fills that segment of their lineup.

This is Apple. We mustn't put anything past them.

What if they brought out a cheap barebones NetBook which only had an ExpressCard slot?

You would just order the NetBook and add the necessary cards (Apple manufactured of course) to your order. eSATA, USB, Firewire, Card Readers, Solid State etc. Just imagine having your OSX setup sitting on a SSD in an ExpressCard module. True Plug and Play.

Now that I think about it, the idea is growing on me. The only problem would be getting Apple to do the impossible: get the pricing right!

This is the logical scenario that has escaped Apple. They are so dogmatic about their design choices and getting you to see their way of thinking it has hampered the very essence of computing. One size does not fit all. I'm fine with running a USB hub I don't need a plethora of USB ports on my computer. I'd rather have Expresscard34 cards to fit my personal needs.

Apple has been missing quite a few "intelligent" and "desired" things in their lineup for years. From an engineering standpoint not having expresscard in all of their laptops is butt stupid. Likewise xMac, docking stations, thicker batteries and your favorite product that Apple doesn't make.

From a product market management standpoint...it seems to work better than any other strategy. Not Sony, Dell, HP, Lenovo etc has done a better job. Apple gets the job done with fewer sku's, less cost, higher growth and more profit.

This is why engineers typically make crappy business folks.

I hadn't thought of that.

That's actually a VERY good idea!

Hmmm!

You could get any port you wanted. You could get two or even three on one card, and switch them in and out as needed.

Hmmm!

I wonder if any companies are doing this, or are thinking about it?

No, it's not a very good idea. You end up with the ports sticking out of the slot because it's too thin. A USB plug does slide into the space of the expresscard slot but you have to allow for SOME amount of casing and the slot is thinner than the USB ports on my MBP.

Maybe the mini versions of ports would work.

Yeah, for versatility, it would be kinda cool, but I always hate any cards sticking out over the edge of my MBP (or the previous PowerBook, etc.) -- seemed more clumsy and breakable that way. If they could find a way to make the cards (and their ports) flush, that would be completely modular-ly great.

No, I think it's great. There will be developers who will come up with good implementations.

The idea of ports on Express cards and the older PC cards have been around for a while. I don't know of any symptomatic problems here, do you?

It may seem that way, but where is the evidence for it?

You don't need to have the card plugged in when it's not being used.

I understand your point, but usually, say I'm on the set, we get done with a shot, we move to another set (or worse, on location, we up and drive somewhere for an afternoon shot). I usually just dump my laptop in my bag and go. I always worry about catching an over-edge card when doing that, and it also ruins the aesthetics. I had to use a firewire card years ago, and a SCSI card as well. Always hated them. Glad when I didn't have to use them anymore... which should put me into the "why'd they drop the firewire port" camp, though it doesn't.

Extra effort to be plugging and unplugging cards. It's why I like wireless backup. No muss, no fuss. But that's just me. As I said, I could see the versatility of it (and if I needed a rugged do-anything laptop for, say, astronomical imaging -- which I like -- that would be a cool thing), but I don't like it for other reasons. Sounds like it's subjective at this point. So... there is no evidence either way.

I remember the days when I shot the Clairol Summer Blonde ads for Tv. If we hadn't locked up a location, we might do the same thing.

Of course, back then, it was "throw the Mitchell" in the van, and let's get going. Sometimes, it was also: "where's that damn Nagra?"


I think we're mostly talking about a MB as opposed to a MBP.

Ahhh, Nagras... recorder of choice for in-the-field documentaries and John Lennon.




Yeah, I know -- I was just talkin' generally. As I said, I could see a really versatile notebook that was uber-modular specifically. Would be cool. For the normal laptop (MB or MBP), I personally wouldn't want it. Just subjective.

Perhaps... We know the macbook and mbp (in particular) lines needed reinvigoration, design-wise. The new unibody case is here for the next 3-4 years. With USB2 to be supplanted by USB3 during this time - perhaps only a little more than a year after the introduction of the new case - and the writing on the wall for FW400 in terms of broad-appeal consumer peripherals, design decisions had to be made now - in order to save the cost of redesign/re-tooling, especially considering it being a new process.

Primarily snapping off the ports or getting them caught on something. Ever use one of the old ethernet pccards? Either you have a delicate port on the side of your laptop or this annoying adapter cable that likes to fall out a lot.

Is it a HUGE issue? No, but it screws with aesthetics and functionality in comparison to normal ports. It's great for expansion but no so hot for everyday use of a USB port.

You COULD go with a non-standard sized expresscard slot that is deeper and able to have embedded ports. That doesn't help you much though if you need a normal USB port AND want to have a normal expresscard in there...like a 3G modem. So you keep the regular 2xUSB and ethernet and add a expresscard slot for any other use so 90% of the users never have to muck with the thing. Arguably you can dump ethernet too.

Perhaps you can afford to dump all ports in favor of a single slot once wireless usb becomes common place and a travel sized hub is available.

If the breakage problem issue was a large one, then I could agree. But the truth is that I also see port breakage with standard ports, when someone either pulls the cable improperly, or the computer itself. I don't know if the expressport designs have much more of a problem with their ports.

But, I can say one thing about it. I'd rather have to replace a cheap Express card because of a broken port than have to send my computer in because of a broken port.

As far as esthetics goes, that's in the eye of the beholder, as it's said. I wouldn't keep it in all the time, only when I needed it. I would keep them with the cables, no loss issue for me, as I'm pretty good about that.

The advantage of having the ability to add any port I wanted to, no matter what Apple was thinking, would, by far, outweigh any disadvantages it would add, which, to me right now, seem to be minor.

One more thing, as someone sometimes says.

The issue of esthetics is interesting in this context. We see here how many guys complain that Apple is concerned too much with esthetics, and not enough with practicality. Now I see two guys saying that this idea wouldn't be esthetic enough, even though it would be practical (other that the POSSIBLE breakage issue).

We can see how Apple must tread that fine line. They can't make everyone happy at the same time.

Ummmmm, i think its time to make this thread a Sticky...... its never going to end!

Or rather, lock the thread.

This will be an issue until 1) Apple brings back FW; 2) No new FW400 accessories are made and enough time has passed that people have upgraded their FW accessories to USB; 3) FWoE gets made; 4) Apocalypse.

I liked the "upgraded to USB" part.

Mitchells and Nagras!

Was this back when Melgross had long hair, wore tight plaid slacks, and drove a Mercury Cougar