Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire - Page 40

I think you are looking in the rear view mirror with rose colored glasses.

I remember an article I read about the iMac when it was first introduced. The author complained about the missing floppy drive, the missing legacy ports, and Apples stubbornness with AIO computers. The author declared the iMac was a perfect example of why Apple was going out of business.

I wonder what that author thinks 10 years later.

Tell that to the music community. Also nice way to twist things to fit your religious beliefs


From who?


What in god's name are you talking about?



Its not elitist to expect a computer to actually work the way you want it. Beleive it not computers do things about surfing the web, going online, and using iChat. Do you ever actually listen to anyone else. Yes, I want a computer to suit my needs, I'm the one who uses it. I'm not going to give apple a good deal of my hard earned cash because its my civic duty to prop up the company, I don't give a damn about the new case. I care about what's inside it. If it adds a little style to functionality like my iBook did, that's a bonus.


For years? They've been promoting it for years. It's been only every Mac released in the last decade save the Macbook air and the new Macbook. It's been touted as a feature of years. My 14 month old iMac had the addition of FW800 as one of the selling points. They stopped supporting it when it came in conflict with Ive's design philosophy.



No but I can compare it to other premium level 13" notebooks.



So, it being better at quake makes up for having to spend money on a less capable firewire audio interface and not being able to access by files via TDM? The old slightly thicker enclosure could do both. They plugged one hole by creating another one. When I bought by G3 iBook I had both the functionality of firewire and the graphics power to play the latest games of the day. Nice try.



Yes, they have been, that's why they're always on the cutting edge. In this case they dropped a more professional standard (no that doesn't mean you automatically need a $2000 15" machine) in favor of a consumer one. It's no like they're replacing both with USB3.0 here.


A $2000 Macbook Pro is too big and heavy (and expensive) for my needs. Also, like I've said numerous times, it's not like moving from a HP to a Sony VAIO. I have a major financial investment in the Mac OS X platform. The majority of my files and programs will not work on another brand of computer.

That apple adapted and became a consumer electronics company. 60% of Apple's revenue came from non-computer sources last quarter. The iMac fad burned itself out and many of those user bought a machine other than Apple for their next computer. You guys seem to forget that the Apple recession of 2001-2004 happened. The current iMac is also a much different computer. It has moved up market from the entry level machine that it was. The iMac didn't save Apple. The iPod and iBook did.

Are you making this stuff up as you go along?


The iMac I bought in 1999 cost $1,400. The base iMac today costs $1,200. How do you figure they changed product categories.

All of those products contributed to saving Apple. Apple could not have kept going on the iPod and iBook alone.

Revisionist history. Apple had a couple of bad years during the last recession of 2000 to 2001, like everyone else. The computer industry, in addition, was burned after the hundreds of billions spent around the world buying new machines, from laptops to mainframes, and new OS's, as well as hiring hundreds of thousands of people to fix those dating problems.

Remember that?

The entire computer industry was in a recession for several years after the millennium "crisis" was over.

The iMac helped Apple remain relevant, and level. It's true, that eventually, the iPod and iTunes Store made a major leap for them.

Try reading the q4 earnings reports.

Total earnings: $7.62 billion
Mac sales $3.66 billion or 48% of revenue.
iPhone/iPod/ITMS sales: 3.3 billion or 43% of revenue
Peripheral sales: 428 million or 5.6% of revenue
Software/Services: $549 million or 7.2% of revenue


That was the highest end iMac DV. They started at $999 which was almost unheard of in those days. You didn't see a then equivalent to the $2000+ 24" models with the 3ghz CPU and Geforce 8800 graphics (yet with still a single non-user upgradable hard drive). Those kinds of specs were reserved for the PowerMac. You also don't see the more affordable low end systems anymore. The true successor to the original iMac, got down as far as $799 before it was replaced by the Mac Mini.


No, but they have by far the largest impact. The PowerMac was also a strong seller until Apple yanked the rug out from under it after they released the G5 iMac.

The G4 was a flop. The current G5-type design didn't really take off until Apple moved to intel and Microsoft released Vista and Apple eliminated any other choice.

Not true. It did take a while to get schools to adopt for the fear of the swinging arm, but they did.

The G5 was popular. Apple's sales were rising nicely BEFORE they switched to Intel. That was one of the reason why people were surprised they did so.

The rise only slowed down the quarter before the new models came out, which would be expected. The increase that quarter was 5%. The next quarter was up to 12%, then it kept increasing.

i notice that you are limiting your statements to "FW400"... wise move \

would you care to make the same arguments using the word "firewire" only ?
if not, please look to the title of this thread

do i hear anyone complaining if apple puts any form of firewire (incl FW800+) back on the MB?
no, thought not - since it's all backwards compatible.

stop arguing about whether FW400 is a dead port interface already - it's a moot point !

in other news, anyone seen this article about how tapeless camcorders are not a macs best friend

Yes FireWire 800 on the MacBook would have been the sensible option. The obvious option.\ I do think that everyone here had already been in agreement that 400 is dying/dead.

Not good news for Apple if those tapeless camcorders don't get a Mac fix soon. I still think that a back-up tape is hard to beat. I've had some Video8 tapes for years now and they still play perfectly. A few DVD-R backups that I had made some years back have since failed. Luckily those tapes are still around

This is only true of some.

The problem is that some manufacturers are, for some reason, modifying the standards.

When MiniDV first came out, we had problems with both Hitachi and JVC camcorders for the same reasons (all using FW, I would like to mention!). After a while, the companies brought their machines into spec, and the problems went away.

It's interesting to note that as for the MiniDV machines, both Canon and Sony have no problems.

It's also interesting to note that some of those machines having problems on the Mac are also having problems on PC's.

But the glitches will be fixed, and this time next year, most people will have forgotten about it.

The more important revelation from these earnings is that Mac sales are 48% of total revenue while iPod/Phone are 43%. No one has the expectation that Mac revenue needs to be the majority of Apple's product category.




The base price of an iMac DV in late 1999 was $1,299. The reason the specs of the iMac is so much better today and the price is higher. Is because technology has greatly improved in the last 10 years. The components Apple uses in current iMac are more on the expensive side.

Interesting how the article kept it all in context. Saying that the camera manufacturers are working out the bugs. You attempt to take this out of that context and make it sound like a bigger problem.

can you explain how saying "have you seen this article" takes it out of context and makes it appear like a bigger problem?
hmmmm... \

anyone seen this Pro article on the apple site - impressive

shame Ge Wang now can't use the new MB... since he was using motu FW interfaces for his macbook orchestra
oh and odd that a "professional" would use the blackbook instead of a MBP - he's obviously just an amateur

Of course I'm using the term FW400, because that is what was removed from the MB and MBP. FW800 still remains on the MBP and FW800 was never on the MB. Neither the MB or MBP replaced the FW400 port with USB or FW800 or any other port. It was simply taken off. In my opinion the reasoning points to space constraints with FW400 being the weakest link of the required ports. You may think it's the most important, but you would be wrong.


PS: My hypothesis on space constraints being a likely reason for FW400 removal is feeling more correct. I noticed recently that my Sierra Wireless USB 3G adapter will no longer allow me to have my iPod USB cable plugged in at the same time. I have to use a 12" mUSB-to-fUSB cable to get both in. This wasn't an issue with my previous machine, so this means that the USB ports are closer together

again - it's firewire, not FW400 that this thread is about.

apple removed firewire from the MB - yes or no ?
apple left firewire on the MBP - yes or no ?

and regarding the space constraints on the unibody MB - sounds like apple did a great job.
no really. congrats apple. what a brilliant case design compared to the original 13" MB
not only less connectivity but less usability with the limited connectivity that remains

another reason not to buy - thanks for the heads up.

This thread is about Jobs responding to emails about the loss of FW400 from the unibody MBs. But you are failing to see that it was the FW400 that was removed from both the MB and MB, you have completely ignored what Apple did add to the new MBs so you could focus on a loss of a port that is neither popular or common among an average consumer's peripherals.


Apple removed a port from the MB & MBP - yes or no ?
Apple removed FW400 from the MB & MBP - yes or no ?


Then don't buy one. A buyer should be aware of the purchase they are going to make. But if you wanted a new Mac notebookand not just a reason to complaintheir is always the MBP and a MB that not only has FW400 but comes with a reduced price tag, as well. That latter sounds like a win-win situation for anyone who primary concern isn't about impressing peers.

classic, your argument now is that i only want to impress peers
that was an old and weak argument that gave us all a chuckle quite a few pages back

i rarely hang out in starbucks or any similar places with my notebook
plus i've already responded to this nonsense explaining why i personally need a new laptop
(heat issues and flickering display) neither of which are fixed if i purchase a whitebook

whatever, i don't think anyone but yourself is arguing port removal
rather connection technology removal (since FW400 and FW800+ ports are compatible)

Your argument is that the MB doesn't have FW and that the MBP is too costly. Yet there is a MB with FW400, and I haven't read one post by you talking about the pros of the unibody MB added components, so the only reason I can conceive for your complete lack of acknowledgement of that machine is because you don't think it's cool enough.

I spoken several times on the pluses of the new unibody MB and the shortcomings of FW for the average consumer, but you seem to still feel that Apple needs to make machines that focus solely around your needs, not their consumer base. So what else am I to think about your distaste for the new and old cases for the MB?

please read my post just one up from this reply

my issues are
- poor display (flickering screen which has been to warranty twice - and still not fixed) and is clearly a design issue
- overheating, and poor heat removal, which is also clearly a design issue

as i have stated many times, i want these problems fixed before i purchase a new model
as there is no fundamental difference in design between the blackbook and the current whitebook
there is no motivation to purchase a new whitebook when i'll have the same problems.

it has nothing to do with being "cool" enough in the style sense
but a lot to do with "cool" enough in the thermal sense.

If it's a design issue then the problem should be with all or most of poly-carb MBs, but it isn't. Sounds like you got a bad machine.

Don't think that the only issue to come from the new, thinner MB is the exclusion of FW400. Their are reports of Nvidia iGPU issues and the 'sensation' of greater heat as aluminium is a greater conductor of heat than poly-carb. It feels hotter on my lap and my hands while typing but iStat shows a temp of about 15-20° F cooler on the CPU than my previous MB. Both are the top-of-the-line MBs, by the one I compared it to was still Merom, not Penryn, as I skip a generation so the heat at the processor could have been mostly reduced by the new chip architecture, not the new casing. Also, since it's new and you've had particularly bad luck with your previous MB, why would you want to jump into a brand new, untested design... even if it came with a plethora FW ports?

good to know - i've been searching forums on the heat performance of the new models
for info, as a musician my biggest issue was the rapid spin-up of the fans
which created problems of audio bleed on quiet recordings
thus heat transfer by the case might actually help
(but i agree that for normal 'laptop' use it's not ideal)

good point about not jumping in on an untested model
(which is why i haven't, even if i wanted to 'upgrade' to the MBP to get the firewire connectivity)

thanks again for the info

It's not entirely the new architecture. Apple switched from 35w T-series standard voltage chips to 25w P-series Medium voltage.

USB 3.0 drives are almost here.

This means that Apple is probably going to debut USB 3.0 on systems either in June (WWDC) or on the first systems out in the fall.

As I've said before, I would have been fine with Apple dropping FW400 on the MacBook if USB 3.0 was ready to usurp it. I think once the transition has taken place, first-gen Aluminum MacBooks will have limited resale values.

The exact same thing happened to the first iBooks that lacked Firewire. Funny how life works...

The author will think the same. The author was spot on with the evaluation. Industry sees the iMac as a great example of a technological transition. Consumers of previous Macs see it as a painful amputation of technology.

Apple was wrong not to include firewire on that mac (probably the very first nail in the coffin right then and there). I find it ironic how people point to the iMac's success and give it as an example of SJ's greatness. I see the iMac as a failure with respect to what it could have achieved: far higher sales and less pain for users.

No one can deny that the iMac marked a turning point (especially in design and marketing for that kind of product) but it could have been a whole lot more if Apple had done things slightly differently.

I agree and disagree. In G3 imac was very sales success, its failing was in retention. In fact, it kept getting more capable and more affordable until the G3 line was replaced with the lampshade and moved slightly up market. Apple did not understand that there were differences between the loyal Mac user and the switcher. They could not take things for granted with those users they way they could with the faithful. As a result alot of them switched back and consumer Mac sales dropped off sharply in 2001 when it was time to buy their next computer. He got arrogant, started releasing the products he wanted to buy like the afore mentioned iMac G4 and PowerMac Cube instead of listening to the consumer.

The iMac was revolutionary in that it introduced USB to replace both ADB and the serial printer ports, introduced colors other than Beige and black to the computer world, and game in at very affordable for the time $1299.

Its form factor was evolutionary though. It replaced the G3 all in one, which had replaced the PowerPC-based 5000-series PowerMacs/Performas, which replaced the 680x0 500-series LC/Performa, which in turn replaced the Mac Color Classic and so on and so forth.

Sorry, I was referring to the Bondi more than anything else (I quite liked the iMac DV). Part of my post seems to have got mangled at posting time.

USB 3 is expected to arrive at Christmas and may eventually reach 2.4gbps in real world throughput.

Does anyone know what FW 3200's expected real world figure is supposed to be?

can we pleeeeeeeeeease re-start this thread ???
please !!!???

just to close it quickly again now that
APPLE HAS DONE A BACK TRACK ON FIREWIRE

brilliant !!

PS now how much is an alu 13" macbook without firewire worth \

There was no room on the last design which meant something had to go, which meant the obsolescing FW400 port. The MBPs still had FW800 and the MB never had FW800. They have removed the latched battery/HDD bay which means there is more side area to place ports while increasing the battery size and maintaining their aesthetics. As it’s been stated many times before, If the 17” MBP’s built-in battery was a success then the other uni-body Macs would get it and FW800 would be added.

the whole 'not enough space' has been debunked many times
i guess they magically created the space for an SD slot using dark matter
and never mind that this was not your argument before
(which was that FW was obsolete tech given the ubiquity of USB)

oh well I guess everyone's happy now

We totally called it. Don't get me started on the 15" not having an expresscard slot though.


Please, he said that there was no need for it and half the zealots in this thread agreed. Apple is clearly changing their tune on that now.

This is good news indeed. Add to that SD card, better battery life and 8GB support.

/shrug

There isn't for a consumer model...the 13" is a "pro" model now and that leaves room for...something else.

Like maybe a netbook or tablet.

Losing expresscard is more annoying for the 15". I'd rather lose FW800 on the 15" and get expresscard across the entire line.

It was proven many times. Find me where it would go on the old unibody MB? Remember, you can’t use the back, the front, the top, the bottom, the lid, the keyboard, the display, any place that already has port, or any place that the bottom lid would touch. Besides it being obvious to most people that it was a space issue, they even moved the ports slightly closer together which messed up my having my 3G card plugged into my Mac with my iPhone cable no longer work. i had to buy a 12” USB m-to-f cable to accommodate it. Why would they move it closer together when, according to you, there is so much extra room? Why not remove all FW to replace with USB if you claim that Apple is actually go back on their decision to remove FW? If you now say that it’s just FW400, then why did they not add FW800 or another USB2.0 port? The only rational answer is that there was no space and the images prove it.


Jobs wrote a letter saying that all new video cameras didn’t use FW anymore. While, he was incorrect as there were some older DVs that did, almost all use USB at this point. It’s been predicted that FW800 would come to the MB as soon as the lid was screwed on and user accessible. If you really think that there was no need for it why have all new Macs have it, even the Mac Mini got FW800, the MBP never lost it, if you claim that there was no need for FW at all.

I said it was too early to eliminate FW, though it's still on the way out longer term.

Too bad about the Express slot though. I don't understand that.

And why an SD slot?

That makes little sense.

Yes, its a popular card, but so is the card from my D-SLR, which is Compact Flash.

What's annoying about an SD slot is that you can get an adapter for SD cards for a Compact Flash slot, it isn't done the other way around, and a flash adapter can always go into an Express slot.

I don't think many Macbook Pro owners use their Express Card slots. The adaptors are often expensive or don't have Mac drivers anyway. Firewire 800 is decent enough for storage and for audio interfaces.

The reason to use SD is that it's a very common storage format and I imagine due to the size, it's one Apple would like to promote. Apple are probably trying to make the experience best for the most users here.

A 32GB SD card is £65 and is very handy if you want to copy large files quickly from one laptop to another. I can understand the point about using CF slots and the point that there are SD card ExpressCard adaptors but I actually think it's a good move. The reason floppies stayed around so long is there was no other built-in read/write format besides the far from practical optical RW and there hasn't been anything decent besides flash cards.

By sticking with ExpressCard, it means you have to pay more for addons so people don't and you end up with this very handy read/write format not becoming widely used. This way SD card use is promoted and helps affirm the standard.

It's good to hear about Firewire going back on the 13" model. I wish they'd get rid of the white one though and drop the aluminum model price just a bit further. I guess that will happen at the next revision.

I have to say it's fun to read the old part of the thread where people are complaining about the lack of a 13" MacBook Pro and arguing about the inclusion of FireWire. Now all they need to do is get FW800 on the MBA and I'll be in heaven.

Oh, and the SD card slot baffles me, too. Not only does it exclude Compact Flash, but it is a thumb in the eye of those of us who bought those cool SD cards with built-in USB jacks. It's a conspiracy, I tell ya.

Before proclaiming the death of FireWire I'd keep one eye on the evolution of the standards. FW is just serial SCSI, which has proven to be one of the most long-lived protocols in use--not just for backward compatibility, either. If they can keep bumping it up in speed it will remain competitive for a long time.

I understand their reasoning for SD, but I think it's wrong.

Why cut out the users of the better cameras? Why should we have to use a FW to CF adapter hanging out of the computer, when we could stick our cards into the slot directly?

Do you realize that an SD adapter only sticks out of a CF slot by about 3/8"? That's not much.

A FW800 to CF adapter costs at least $50. I know, as I have one. But an SD to CF adapter only costs $15. We have that too.

They could have included one.

As has been said before it was not a question of not fitting, it was a case of it not being designed to accomodate a FW port. IMO, poor design at that point in time. It would have fitted if they had designed it to fit.

Apple lost the money I had set aside for a MacBook as I ended up spending it on a Lumix G1. There's no problem with that as I am but one of many potential clients. However, no company likes it when someone saves money with the intention of spending it on their products only to see that cash go into another company's pocket because the final product line didn't meet the users requirements. The question has to be, just how many other people acted the same way I did?

Perhaps enough to warrant a re-think on the 13 inch unibody design. We will never know though as nobody at Apple has ever had the time of day to come out and explain exactly why it was taken off in the first place (excepting SJ's silly pseudo-official comment).