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Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire - Page 41

post #1601 of 1663
6/8/09 at 10:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

the whole 'not enough space' has been debunked many times
i guess they magically created the space for an SD slot using dark matter
and never mind that this was not your argument before
(which was that FW was obsolete tech given the ubiquity of USB)

oh well I guess everyone's happy now

It was proven many times. Find me where it would go on the old unibody MB? Remember, you can’t use the back, the front, the top, the bottom, the lid, the keyboard, the display, any place that already has port, or any place that the bottom lid would touch. Besides it being obvious to most people that it was a space issue, they even moved the ports slightly closer together which messed up my having my 3G card plugged into my Mac with my iPhone cable no longer work. i had to buy a 12” USB m-to-f cable to accommodate it. Why would they move it closer together when, according to you, there is so much extra room? Why not remove all FW to replace with USB if you claim that Apple is actually go back on their decision to remove FW? If you now say that it’s just FW400, then why did they not add FW800 or another USB2.0 port? The only rational answer is that there was no space and the images prove it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by infinitespecter View Post

Please, he said that there was no need for it and half the zealots in this thread agreed. Apple is clearly changing their tune on that now.

Jobs wrote a letter saying that all new video cameras didn’t use FW anymore. While, he was incorrect as there were some older DVs that did, almost all use USB at this point. It’s been predicted that FW800 would come to the MB as soon as the lid was screwed on and user accessible. If you really think that there was no need for it why have all new Macs have it, even the Mac Mini got FW800, the MBP never lost it, if you claim that there was no need for FW at all.
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post #1602 of 1663
6/8/09 at 10:58am
I said it was too early to eliminate FW, though it's still on the way out longer term.

Too bad about the Express slot though. I don't understand that.

And why an SD slot?

That makes little sense.

Yes, its a popular card, but so is the card from my D-SLR, which is Compact Flash.

What's annoying about an SD slot is that you can get an adapter for SD cards for a Compact Flash slot, it isn't done the other way around, and a flash adapter can always go into an Express slot.
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post #1603 of 1663
6/8/09 at 1:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Too bad about the Express slot though. I don't understand that.

And why an SD slot?

I don't think many Macbook Pro owners use their Express Card slots. The adaptors are often expensive or don't have Mac drivers anyway. Firewire 800 is decent enough for storage and for audio interfaces.

The reason to use SD is that it's a very common storage format and I imagine due to the size, it's one Apple would like to promote. Apple are probably trying to make the experience best for the most users here.

A 32GB SD card is £65 and is very handy if you want to copy large files quickly from one laptop to another. I can understand the point about using CF slots and the point that there are SD card ExpressCard adaptors but I actually think it's a good move. The reason floppies stayed around so long is there was no other built-in read/write format besides the far from practical optical RW and there hasn't been anything decent besides flash cards.

By sticking with ExpressCard, it means you have to pay more for addons so people don't and you end up with this very handy read/write format not becoming widely used. This way SD card use is promoted and helps affirm the standard.

It's good to hear about Firewire going back on the 13" model. I wish they'd get rid of the white one though and drop the aluminum model price just a bit further. I guess that will happen at the next revision.
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post #1604 of 1663
6/8/09 at 1:48pm
I have to say it's fun to read the old part of the thread where people are complaining about the lack of a 13" MacBook Pro and arguing about the inclusion of FireWire. Now all they need to do is get FW800 on the MBA and I'll be in heaven.

Oh, and the SD card slot baffles me, too. Not only does it exclude Compact Flash, but it is a thumb in the eye of those of us who bought those cool SD cards with built-in USB jacks. It's a conspiracy, I tell ya.

Before proclaiming the death of FireWire I'd keep one eye on the evolution of the standards. FW is just serial SCSI, which has proven to be one of the most long-lived protocols in use--not just for backward compatibility, either. If they can keep bumping it up in speed it will remain competitive for a long time.
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post #1605 of 1663
6/8/09 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

I don't think many Macbook Pro owners use their Express Card slots. The adaptors are often expensive or don't have Mac drivers anyway. Firewire 800 is decent enough for storage and for audio interfaces.

The reason to use SD is that it's a very common storage format and I imagine due to the size, it's one Apple would like to promote. Apple are probably trying to make the experience best for the most users here.

A 32GB SD card is £65 and is very handy if you want to copy large files quickly from one laptop to another. I can understand the point about using CF slots and the point that there are SD card ExpressCard adaptors but I actually think it's a good move. The reason floppies stayed around so long is there was no other built-in read/write format besides the far from practical optical RW and there hasn't been anything decent besides flash cards.

By sticking with ExpressCard, it means you have to pay more for addons so people don't and you end up with this very handy read/write format not becoming widely used. This way SD card use is promoted and helps affirm the standard.

It's good to hear about Firewire going back on the 13" model. I wish they'd get rid of the white one though and drop the aluminum model price just a bit further. I guess that will happen at the next revision.

I understand their reasoning for SD, but I think it's wrong.

Why cut out the users of the better cameras? Why should we have to use a FW to CF adapter hanging out of the computer, when we could stick our cards into the slot directly?

Do you realize that an SD adapter only sticks out of a CF slot by about 3/8"? That's not much.

A FW800 to CF adapter costs at least $50. I know, as I have one. But an SD to CF adapter only costs $15. We have that too.

They could have included one.
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post #1606 of 1663
6/8/09 at 1:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It was proven many times. Find me where it would go on the old unibody MB?

As has been said before it was not a question of not fitting, it was a case of it not being designed to accomodate a FW port. IMO, poor design at that point in time. It would have fitted if they had designed it to fit.

Apple lost the money I had set aside for a MacBook as I ended up spending it on a Lumix G1. There's no problem with that as I am but one of many potential clients. However, no company likes it when someone saves money with the intention of spending it on their products only to see that cash go into another company's pocket because the final product line didn't meet the users requirements. The question has to be, just how many other people acted the same way I did?

Perhaps enough to warrant a re-think on the 13 inch unibody design. We will never know though as nobody at Apple has ever had the time of day to come out and explain exactly why it was taken off in the first place (excepting SJ's silly pseudo-official comment).
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post #1607 of 1663
6/8/09 at 1:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amorph View Post

I have to say it's fun to read the old part of the thread where people are complaining about the lack of a 13" MacBook Pro and arguing about the inclusion of FireWire. Now all they need to do is get FW800 on the MBA and I'll be in heaven.

Oh, and the SD card slot baffles me, too. Not only does it exclude Compact Flash, but it is a thumb in the eye of those of us who bought those cool SD cards with built-in USB jacks. It's a conspiracy, I tell ya.

Before proclaiming the death of FireWire I'd keep one eye on the evolution of the standards. FW is just serial SCSI, which has proven to be one of the most long-lived protocols in use--not just for backward compatibility, either. If they can keep bumping it up in speed it will remain competitive for a long time.

Why do you think that FW is serial scsi? It's very different.
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post #1608 of 1663
6/8/09 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post

As has been said before it was not a question of not fitting, it was a case of it not being designed to accomodate a FW port. IMO, poor design at that point in time. It would have fitted if they had designed it to fit.

As I stated, they could have shrunk the battery, moved the HDD over a bit and added the ports and circuitry. But Id rather more battery than a FW400 port. Also as stated, Apple was obsolescing the FW400 port, not FW altogether.

If were discounting Apples longstanding design aesthetics as mandatory for Apple designers, then they could have added it pretty much anywhere they please. They dont have to use just the sides, or in the case of the MB, the left side. Why not put the audio ports in the front. We can go on all day about what Apple or any other company coulda/woulda/shoulda, but the fact remains that under that design there was no room to add it and it was the least need of the ports for the vast majority of people.

As Ive been stating since the 17 MBP announcement, if Apple goes that route with the the 13 MB FW800 be included for the first time since the FW800/1600/3200 port is not going away just yet.

The MB event was not the first time Apple has done things like this. The original 15 MBP when through 2 revisions of only having a SL-DVD writer while the 2 years before that the 16 PB had a DL-DVD writer. They moved from a 11.7mm to a 9.5mm drive and the tech was not ready. It was also a slower drive all around. While people were upset by this backwards move to expect Apple to make their new machine thicker for this momentary setback is absurd.

Whether Apple expected to go with non-user replaceable before the last years MB and MBP, I cant tell you, but after seeing the 17 MBP it seemed obvious under what circumstances that would bring it back. The only caveat is that they removed the separate mic port and did not add, along with FW800, any other ports, like another USB2.0, which would come in handy to a lot more people than FW800.
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post #1609 of 1663
6/8/09 at 2:20pm
i don't need an sd slot i use this

http://www.amazon.com/Sandisk-SDSDPH...4495959&sr=1-5
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post #1610 of 1663
6/8/09 at 3:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Why cut out the users of the better cameras? Why should we have to use a FW to CF adapter hanging out of the computer, when we could stick our cards into the slot directly?

Perhaps to discourage the use of Compact Flash. One thing I don't like about CF is that there is no hardware write-protection and the connection uses pins. That's just asking for trouble somewhere down the line when someone inserts a card badly and bends a pin inside the machine. SD doesn't have the problem. I know there are reasons why CF has advantages such as being more rugged and allowing larger capacities but as I say, having a slot with pins in it that is used a lot is more susceptible to damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NOFER

i don't need an sd slot i use this

That does seem pretty compact. Perhaps all Apple should have done is include a 3rd USB port and one of those adaptors. The issue again though is when someone forgets to take the adaptor. Having a hard-wired SD slot means it's always there whatever happens. No cables, no adaptors.
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post #1611 of 1663
6/8/09 at 3:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Perhaps to discourage the use of Compact Flash. One thing I don't like about CF is that there is no hardware write-protection and the connection uses pins. That's just asking for trouble somewhere down the line when someone inserts a card badly and bends a pin inside the machine. SD doesn't have the problem. I know there are reasons why CF has advantages such as being more rugged and allowing larger capacities but as I say, having a slot with pins in it that is used a lot is more susceptible to damage.

I've never had a problem with the pins in the sockets, where they're protected, and I don't see how you can insert a CF so as to damage the pins.

On the other hand, the exposed connectors on SD cards get dirty, scratched, and damaged. It's been criticized for that. It's very much an amateur card.

The pro community has been down on Canon for using one on the Pro line in addition to the CF card. Nikon hasn't done that.
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post #1612 of 1663
6/8/09 at 4:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I've never had a problem with the pins in the sockets, where they're protected, and I don't see how you can insert a CF so as to damage the pins.

You would really just have to force it slightly off-center and catch the edge of a pin or maybe something could block one of the holes in the card and push the pin out the way:

http://www.lezot.com/servlet/the-1/D...ent-pin/Detail
http://ask.metafilter.com/57318/Help...n-in-a-CF-slot
http://www.reduser.net/forum/archive...hp/t-6301.html
http://www.fixya.com/tags/compact_flash_bent_pin

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

On the other hand, the exposed connectors on SD cards get dirty, scratched, and damaged. It's been criticized for that. It's very much an amateur card.

True, the connectors do wear but I wouldn't mind if the cards wear out and the reader stays in tact. On a camera it's the difference between a $30 card and a $125 repair. There are cards with better connectors that say things like 10,000 insertions minimum.
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post #1613 of 1663
6/8/09 at 4:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

You would really just have to force it slightly off-center and catch the edge of a pin or maybe something could block one of the holes in the card and push the pin out the way:

http://www.lezot.com/servlet/the-1/D...ent-pin/Detail
http://ask.metafilter.com/57318/Help...n-in-a-CF-slot
http://www.reduser.net/forum/archive...hp/t-6301.html
http://www.fixya.com/tags/compact_flash_bent_pin



True, the connectors do wear but I wouldn't mind if the cards wear out and the reader stays in tact. On a camera it's the difference between a $30 card and a $125 repair. There are cards with better connectors that say things like 10,000 insertions minimum.

As you probably know, I had a commercial photo lab here in NYC for many years. When digital first came out, we were one of the first to service it.

I had hundreds of professional customers who used digital going back years. The truth is I never had someone tell me of a problem with a CF card or slot caused by an incorrect insertion that damaged either. My customers often brought their equipment in to us so that we could sent it out to service for them, so I did see a lot of damaged equipment.

While it obviously happens, it happens rarely. It isn't a reason to not want to use CF cards. I'm sure I could look around in Google and find problems with SD cards as well.
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post #1614 of 1663
6/8/09 at 7:24pm
So we are back to all Mac laptops having Firewire again? Interesting. I feel bad for the folks who bought the USB only version.
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post #1615 of 1663
6/9/09 at 1:33am
Who will explain what an SD card is for? By the way, nice move from Apple's part to bring back FW.
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post #1616 of 1663
6/9/09 at 9:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by WelshDog View Post

So we are back to all Mac laptops having Firewire again? Interesting. I feel bad for the folks who bought the USB only version.

It's not too bad. I know people who have the 13" sans FW, and it's a nice little laptop.
If you don't have legacy FW devices or do the iMovie thing, it's not so bad.

They will get shortchanged on the resale value, and Target Disk Mode is unavailable. But if they hold them for the machine's useful life, they won't miss FW too much (especially if they are coming from the PC side of things.)
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post #1617 of 1663
6/9/09 at 9:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The pro community has been down on Canon for using one on the Pro line in addition to the CF card. Nikon hasn't done that.

The D80 and D90 both use SD cards. I know a $1000 camera isn't "pro", but in terms of sheer numbers, there must be more of them out there.

Not to mention, almost every consumer digicam uses SD now. Even Sony and Olympus are starting to abandon their stupid MS and XD formats.
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post #1618 of 1663
6/9/09 at 9:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PB View Post

Who will explain what an SD card is for? By the way, nice move from Apple's part to bring back FW.

An SD (Secure Digital) card is a removable memory card that is primarily used to capture photos in digital cameras. I am unaware as to whether an SD slot can be repurposed for any kind of system expansion a la ExpressCard, but I don't think so.

The fact that the newer versions of SD (SDHC) are being increasingly adopted by most video camera makers instead of MiniDV tape, 8cm discs or internal hard drives is probably the factor that pushed Apple to adopt the slot over the rival CompactFlash format.

Two birds, one slot.
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post #1619 of 1663
6/9/09 at 10:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

An SD (Secure Digital) card is a removable memory card that is primarily used to capture photos in digital cameras. I am unaware as to whether an SD slot can be repurposed for any kind of system expansion a la ExpressCard, but I don't think so.

The fact that the newer versions of SD (SDHC) are being increasingly adopted by most video camera makers instead of MiniDV tape, 8cm discs or internal hard drives is probably the factor that pushed Apple to adopt the slot over the rival CompactFlash format.

Two birds, one slot.

That seems likely. The SD slot isnt a replacement for the EC/34, but if its true that ExpressCard was being used by less than 1% of their userbase than the removal is understandable. Id have preferred another USB port over the SD card slot, but its not my company.
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post #1620 of 1663
6/9/09 at 10:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

There was no room on the last design which meant something had to go, which meant the obsolescing FW400 port. The MBPs still had FW800 and the MB never had FW800. They have removed the latched battery/HDD bay which means there is more side area to place ports while increasing the battery size and maintaining their aesthetics. As its been stated many times before, If the 17 MBPs built-in battery was a success then the other uni-body Macs would get it and FW800 would be added.

Others will jump on you (and me ) for saying this but I at least agree. There was just simply no where for another port to go in the design that included a removable battery. Building the battery in, with the lesser constraints on the particular housing and even the shape, made room I think for other features, in this case, the FW800 port and the SD card slot.

I think that the SD card slot will prove prescient, typical Apple.

All the best.
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post #1621 of 1663
6/9/09 at 10:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post

The D80 and D90 both use SD cards. I know a $1000 camera isn't "pro", but in terms of sheer numbers, there must be more of them out there.

Not to mention, almost every consumer digicam uses SD now. Even Sony and Olympus are starting to abandon their stupid MS and XD formats.

A few D-SLR's do, but the majority don't.

But as I said, a cheap adapter will allow SD's to go in a CF slot without projecting more than about 3/8", while the opposite isn't true.

I always think the bigger adapter is better because it allows compatibility. It's disappointing that Apple would go for the lowest common denominator here, rather than the higher end solution that would allow both.

After all, they sell so many adapters for their own exclusive connectors that selling one from one standard to another shouldn't be so difficult.
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post #1622 of 1663
6/9/09 at 12:01pm
Just read a comment posted under the MacWorld story on the new laptops.

The poster speculates that the SD card slot could better position Apple to abandon the CD drive entirely.
That's a really good point.
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post #1623 of 1663
6/9/09 at 12:09pm
They would be really stupid to do so at this point.
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post #1624 of 1663
6/9/09 at 12:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Just read a comment posted under the MacWorld story on the new laptops.

The poster speculates that the SD card slot could better position Apple to abandon the CD drive entirely.
That's a really good point.

I don't get that. An SD slot has less advantage in that area than do USB drives.
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post #1625 of 1663
6/9/09 at 12:35pm
I think time is showing Firewire to be of greater lasting need than ExpressCard. Many of those using EC34 had wireless 3G modems. Those are almost universally replaceable with USB devices now.
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post #1626 of 1663
6/9/09 at 12:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post

I think time is showing Firewire to be of greater lasting need than ExpressCard. Many of those using EC34 had wireless 3G modems. Those are almost universally replaceable with USB devices now.

Firewire's worth will extend for a couple of years more. Past that, most users will have no use for it, especially if Apple does the right thing and includes E-SATA with power over the line and a 6 Gb/s data rate.
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post #1627 of 1663
6/9/09 at 12:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I don't get that. An SD slot has less advantage in that area than do USB drives.

SanDisk is happy with the news. A little reprieve after throwing in the towel last week against the iPod. Perhaps Apple sees a future more than the current use here implies. I certainly dont get it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post

I think time is showing Firewire to be of greater lasting need than ExpressCard. Many of those using EC34 had wireless 3G modems. Those are almost universally replaceable with USB devices now.

Hopefully well see 3G cards built in to the notebooks with the next revision.
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post #1628 of 1663
6/9/09 at 12:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Firewire's worth will extend for a couple of years more. Past that, most users will have no use for it, especially if Apple does the right thing and includes E-SATA with power over the line and a 6 Gb/s data rate.

With all due respect, history has taught me to be skeptical of all future predictions of people finding no use for Firewire. Also, my point had more to do with the greater perceived need for Firewire versus EC34.
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post #1629 of 1663
6/9/09 at 12:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Firewire's worth will extend for a couple of years more. Past that, most users will have no use for it, especially if Apple does the right thing and includes E-SATA with power over the line and a 6 Gb/s data rate.

I see no evidence that the audio industry is preparing to move to eSATA with power.
Until they do, Apple will have to include FW on the Pro machines.

And Apple's not doing both, so eSATA will likely remain out in the cold.
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post #1630 of 1663
6/9/09 at 12:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post

With all due respect, history has taught me to be skeptical of all future predictions of people finding no use for Firewire. Also, my point had more to do with the greater perceived need for Firewire versus EC34.

I have no problem making this prediction.

Before there was no good alternative for some of the more important services FW offers. Now there are several. It's also easy to see that the main source of FW's requirement on a computer, camcorders, are quickly moving away from FW and to USB. That will only occur more rapidly once USB 3 comes out next year. HDDs that were dependent on FW for external use as SCSI faded, are moving to E-SATA even without power over the line. That will also increase next year once E-SATA 3 with power over the line is available.

So what is the future for FW? I don't see one for MOST people's needs.

As for the comparison to EC34, it doesn't matter, both are likely on the way out.
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post #1631 of 1663
6/9/09 at 1:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

I see no evidence that the audio industry is preparing to move to eSATA with power.
Until they do, Apple will have to include FW on the Pro machines.

And Apple's not doing both, so eSATA will likely remain out in the cold.

The audio industry will move to USB 3, as they have moved, in fits and starts, to USB 2. USB 3 solves the problems that USB still has, which is mostly in the area of speed.

E-SATA, as you should know, is for mass storage, not for passing signals between one device and another, such as a midi keyboard, guitar, etc.
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post #1632 of 1663
6/9/09 at 1:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I had hundreds of professional customers who used digital going back years. The truth is I never had someone tell me of a problem with a CF card or slot caused by an incorrect insertion that damaged either.

While it obviously happens, it happens rarely. It isn't a reason to not want to use CF cards.

I imagine if the slot is designed as tightly as it could be, the chances of a fault occurring would be slim. Nonetheless, I think overall the design of SD cards is better although I admit I find them a bit too small sometimes.

As I say, it's perhaps about pushing the standard as opposed to just supporting the most popular one. I for one would love to see write-protected Flash media take over from optical storage - it just takes up far too much space.

HD-DVD managed to get by with 15GB so with proper encoding, you could similarly get away with 16GB flash cards. Right now, these cost £30 vs £4 for a 25GB BD-R. SDXC should arrive by the end of the year in 64GB+ capacities, hopefully bringing a price cut.

If they manage to bring the price of a 16GB card down to £4 by halving the price every 6 months, by early 2011, Apple or someone else could try to emerge a new digital content distribution format - a format that works on mobile devices too. Flash drops 60% annually according to Samsung:

http://www.engadget.com/2007/04/25/s...-anytime-soon/

As good as networks get, shuffling around 16GB per movie isn't going to be doable for a while. Perhaps in VOD services for streaming but not in the cases of small businesses showing off work to clients. Major upload bandwidth is required.

It could be an open standard just like H264 and no license fees. Basically just dump an H264 movie onto an SD card and it's supported as well as having hardware accelerated playback.

The beauty of the plan is that you don't have to convince people to buy expensive drives as a lot of people already have them on their computers.

If I had $20 billion in the bank, this is what I'd spend a significant portion doing. Making a loss-leading digital content distribution format to end all formats and manage to get your logo on every disc/card. That's mind-share for you.
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post #1633 of 1663
6/9/09 at 1:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

I imagine if the slot is designed as tightly as it could be, the chances of a fault occurring would be slim. Nonetheless, I think overall the design of SD cards is better although I admit I find them a bit too small sometimes.

As I say, it's perhaps about pushing the standard as opposed to just supporting the most popular one. I for one would love to see write-protected Flash media take over from optical storage - it just takes up far too much space.

HD-DVD managed to get by with 15GB so with proper encoding, you could similarly get away with 16GB flash cards. Right now, these cost £30 vs £4 for a 25GB BD-R. SDXC should arrive by the end of the year in 64GB+ capacities, hopefully bringing a price cut.

If they manage to bring the price of a 16GB card down to £4 by halving the price every 6 months, by early 2011, Apple or someone else could try to emerge a new digital content distribution format - a format that works on mobile devices too. Flash drops 60% annually according to Samsung:

http://www.engadget.com/2007/04/25/s...-anytime-soon/

As good as networks get, shuffling around 16GB per movie isn't going to be doable for a while. Perhaps in VOD services for streaming but not in the cases of small businesses showing off work to clients. Major upload bandwidth is required.

It could be an open standard just like H264 and no license fees. Basically just dump an H264 movie onto an SD card and it's supported as well as having hardware accelerated playback.

The beauty of the plan is that you don't have to convince people to buy expensive drives as a lot of people already have them on their computers.

If I had $20 billion in the bank, this is what I'd spend a significant portion doing. Making a loss-leading digital content distribution format to end all formats and manage to get your logo on every disc/card. That's mind-share for you.

A couple of decades ago I was telling people that music distribution would be on memory cards. Of course the price and non-volatility was not there yet.

But, I didn't foresee the internet. CompuServe, which I used, was far different from what we have now.

It looks to me that the time for card distribution has already passed, despite the cheapness of the present cards, and the much cheaper prices in the future.

As far as corporate distribution is concerned, I don't see cards as being cheap enough. Manufacturers of memory won't manufacture cards that cost too little, as they can't make money on them. As a CD/DVD disk costs a manufacturer less that 5 cents, it's got an advantage in pricing that flash will never beat. Even BD disks are coming down in price, and will be at that level after a while.

Possibly for consumers, it will be different. In a couple of years, a 256 GB flash card, slow, but fast enough for the purpose, will cost maybe $30. so consumers may be able to go somewhere and download content directly to the card, but I really don't see it happening.

I really do believe that CD/DVD/BD will remain the main distribution methods until broadband becomes ubiquitous and fast enough to bypass it at a high enough quality level.

If flash card sizes and pricing was where it is now 2 years ago, it might have had a chance by now.
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post #1634 of 1663
6/9/09 at 2:20pm
Great to see FireWire reinstated! Very sensible move indeed.

I really wish Apple would get serious about FireWire and reduce or even abolish licensing fees for 800. This would give other manufacturers extra incentive to include the port on their peripherals and ultimately boost consumer awareness of the standard and its distinct advantages, especially with video/audio devices. Continued development of the interface could then gain more momentum.

Just a thought.
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post #1635 of 1663
6/9/09 at 8:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Why cut out the users of the better cameras?

I don't understand all this complaining about why no Compact Flash card reader?

Guys, this was never an option! Ever.

That's like complaining why the new MacBook Pros don't come with a built-in vacuum cleaner.
It doesn't make sense. It is impossible.

SD cards are 24mm wide. Compact Flash cards are 42.8mm wide. That is a lot wider. We're not talking a few mm here.

The only way they would have managed to put a Compact Flash card reader into the 13" MBP is by reducing the width of the battery by 18.8mm, which is likely akin to 1 or 1 1/2 hours of battery life (the battery has to be rectangular).
Given the choice of a CF reader instead of SD card reader or 1 1/2 hour longer battery life, I can tell you which wins!

A CF reader was never an option.
This was unrealistic from the start.


As to why they added an SD card slot?
Maybe the new Tablet will use SD card storage?
Maybe Apple will start selling movies on SD cards?
Maybe some movie rental service will start renting movies on SD cards?

There's definitely something SD card related in the making!
That's my guess.
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post #1636 of 1663
6/9/09 at 10:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobBIT View Post

I don't understand all this complaining about why no Compact Flash card reader?

Guys, this was never an option! Ever.

That's like complaining why the new MacBook Pros don't come with a built-in vacuum cleaner.
It doesn't make sense. It is impossible.

SD cards are 24mm wide. Compact Flash cards are 42.8mm wide. That is a lot wider. We're not talking a few mm here.

The only way they would have managed to put a Compact Flash card reader into the 13" MBP is by reducing the width of the battery by 18.8mm, which is likely akin to 1 or 1 1/2 hours of battery life (the battery has to be rectangular).
Given the choice of a CF reader instead of SD card reader or 1 1/2 hour longer battery life, I can tell you which wins!

A CF reader was never an option.
This was unrealistic from the start.


As to why they added an SD card slot?
Maybe the new Tablet will use SD card storage?
Maybe Apple will start selling movies on SD cards?
Maybe some movie rental service will start renting movies on SD cards?

There's definitely something SD card related in the making!
That's my guess.

You don't know if this is true though. Yes, it's wider. But it not wide. If pro cameras can fit two flash slots in there, then Apple could put a CF slot in.

This is the same argument we had last year about FW.

Really, If Apple wanted to do it, they would have done it.

An SD slot makes little sense. They should have stuck with the Express slot.

I'll tell you the real reason why they did this.

It's cheaper, and they're lowering the prices. That's why.
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post #1637 of 1663
6/9/09 at 10:44pm
Quote:
An SD slot makes little sense. They should have stuck with the Express slot.

I think an SD slot makes a lot more sense. I bet there'll be far more people taking the memory card from their digital cameras and putting it in the MacBook than there will be people using the ExpressCard slot. I don't really know of any cameras that use Compact Flash anymore. My dads old camera did, but that all seems to have been phased out now.
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post #1638 of 1663
6/9/09 at 10:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrochester View Post

I think an SD slot makes a lot more sense. I bet there'll be far more people taking the memory card from their digital cameras and putting it in the MacBook than there will be people using the ExpressCard slot. I don't really know of any cameras that use Compact Flash anymore. My dads old camera did, but that all seems to have been phased out now.

I think you guys who favor the SD slot really don't understand what's being lost.

You can get a $12 adapter for SD cards that fits in the Express slot, just as you can get many other adapters.

The SD slot is the lowest functioning slot you can get. Apple went to it because it's cheap.

I'm sorry, but anyone getting an expensive computer should know about adapter cards, or at least should know enough to ask about them as has been done here.

Despite what some PC users think, the Mac is not the "Computer for Dummies". Or at least it shouldn't be.

If a computer comes with an Express slot, the purchaser should look at the manual to see what can be done with it.

No excuse not to know this. An SD slot is no substitute.
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post #1639 of 1663
6/9/09 at 11:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I think you guys who favor the SD slot really don't understand what's being lost.

You can get a $12 adapter for SD cards that fits in the Express slot, just as you can get many other adapters.

The SD slot is the lowest functioning slot you can get. Apple went to it because it's cheap.

I'm sorry, but anyone getting an expensive computer should know about adapter cards, or at least should know enough to ask about them as has been done here.

Despite what some PC users think, the Mac is not the "Computer for Dummies". Or at least it shouldn't be.

If a computer comes with an Express slot, the purchaser should look at the manual to see what can be done with it.

No excuse not to know this. An SD slot is no substitute.

Apple said only 1% of customers make use of the Express Card slot, so it seems that's why it went. It was taking up space for very little gain, and I guess they surveyed and found people were more likely to use an SD slot.
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post #1640 of 1663
6/9/09 at 11:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrochester View Post

Apple said only 1% of customers make use of the Express Card slot, so it seems that's why it went. It was taking up space for very little gain, and I guess they surveyed and found people were more likely to use an SD slot.

How would they know? They don't make adapters. People who buy them must buy third party models, and that's not something Apple can track. They say they don't do surveys, so where would they get that percentage from?
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