Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire - Page 6

Originally Posted by dreyfus2

Hmm, have you looked at something like http://www.bombich.com/software/netrestore.html - just carry an Airport Extreme, hook up the machine in question to the network and install away?

Originally Posted by dreyfus2

Well, I have received an offer today with the 2GB RAM, 250 GB HD configuration for a total of 1450 USD (including 3 year international warranty) from my dealer. And, no matter how I look at it, it is tempting.

How I figure it kills the MacBook? Well, the primary market for a 13" device is people wanting a small (and maybe affordable) laptop, not a workstation replacement. I do need things in a small laptop that I require outdoors or at a customer's location (like UMTS if they do not allow me on their network, the ability to capture video and photos) in the smallest package possible. Based on this requirement the MacBook fails on all accounts (almost as much as the MBA)... no UMTS (and no means to add it via ExpressCard), thanks to the iPhone lockdown no tethering there either, no ports, but a stupid optical drive I have not used in a lifetime (as it is substandard anyhow). Just a lot of weight and shiny metal for big money... a price point at which you can get fully equipped 17" workstations elsewhere (a lot uglier, I know). I love OS X and I accept a certain Apple premium, I just think that this time they went far too far. And I have a certain impression that they have lost track of their line-up as well.

Originally Posted by heretakis

Firewire in not just for camcoders. Its a must have when using external HD's with laptops !!!

Originally Posted by solipsism

Speaking of...
What do you think the move to NVIDIA means for Apple's long-game? Attracting PC gamers seems pointless. I'm thinking that they have have high expectations of OpenCL being about to really boost the performance for their machines, but do you have a better idea?

PS: As much as I like the new machine method and the performance 'statements' of the NIVIDIA chips, I have doubts about both and will be waiting a couple months until I update my current Mac notebook. Mostly, I don't trust NVIDIA enough to jump into a new Mac right now.

Originally Posted by ktappe

I thought Macs were supposed to be user-friendly. Removing Target Disk Mode de-friendly-izes them so much it makes owners obtain and use an obscure screwdriver and other geek tools.

Originally Posted by ecking

DVCPRO HD from tape or p2? Because your unfairly skewing the argument under the assumption that the OP knows nothing of what you speak. Obviously taking dvcpro hd files through usb from a p2 reader is nothing to write home about, that isn't real time transfer the way you need for dv or hdv from tape. Your post is misdirection.

Originally Posted by melgross

One can't provide confidence, but the Torx costs $4, and is available as a tip for a couple of bucks in almost any hardware store. The SATA case costs $29.95, and can be bought in a number of places.

I have to say though, that most of the time, if the disk is corrupted enough so that the machine won't boot from it or the drive won't mount, it's also too corrupted for target disk mode as well. I've tried it a number of times on people's machines, and it only worked a few times. The other times, I had to take the disk out, use equipment to do a bit by bit copy to another drive (putting the contents in a folder). Then I used software to try and extract files. Not easy, and lots of stuff gets lost forever, unless you want to spend in the high three figures, or four figures, to get it recovered.

For just transferring information, Ethernet works best, and is faster than FW 800, if you use GB Ethernet, which is pretty cheap, and common, these days.

Originally Posted by melgross

Hmmm! Interesting point.

'murch, he's got you on that one.

Originally Posted by freakboy

Again, some of this shock and outrage would have been molified if apple just told people to never buy firewire devices years ago and just said 'we're keeping this for legacy stuff'.

Then we'd all have known not to buy firewire 400 drives or other things.

To me, it's a bit of a slap in the face. I have a firewire 800, 400, USB external RAID backup that I use for all sorts of things. Its awesome. for kicks once, I tried using it on USB.

LOL. USB SUCKS.

I kind of wish my external raid used esata b/c it's faster than fw 800, but i figured apple wouldn't ever obsolete firewire, so i'd be ok. I even stupidly figured eventually MBs would get firewire800, so i could just keep using it.

I'd have ponied up the extra 50 or 100 bucks to get esata if i'd known they were going to stop using it.

Am I alone? Evidently not. Apple screwed the pooch and they should fix this ASAP. Preferably by adding FW800 instead of 400.

Originally Posted by rawhead

BTW, I've already spoken with two of my DJ/creator pals in Tokyo, and while they are both disappointed about the lack of FW in the new MacBooks, they understand the move, are not going bonkers over it, and one is already committing to buy a new MBP, and the other is contemplating snatching up the 2.4GHz black MacBook while supplies last. Really, that is the attitude some of you need.

Originally Posted by melgross

Hmmm! Interesting point.

'murch, he's got you on that one.

Originally Posted by rtdunham

does anyone remember the audience applauding at any point during the announcements? I remember several pregnant pauses, ones i thought were built-in in anticipation of an audience response, that were met with silence. I know this wasn't a mac fanboy mwsf keynote audience, but i've seen earlier press event video and the audience showed its approval at numerous points. this time, not so much...

Originally Posted by melgross

Never, ever figure that an interface standard won't be replaced. Never, ever!

Apple pioneered SCSI for mainstream computers for many years, then they dropped it like a hot potato. You want me to tell you of the problems that ensued?

Originally Posted by johnqh

What do you mean it doesn't work RELIABLY with USB? It doesn't work AT ALL.

Copy over ethernet.

Or do what I do....use a 4GB USB key.

Originally Posted by plokoonpma

Nope, I didn't try this software yet but I will give it a try. I think it will be very useful since it looks simple to use yet powerful.

Also they have: Carbon Copy Cloner that is also useful. Mike Bombich has done a great job there

Thank You Very Much!

Originally Posted by dreyfus2

You are making the big mistake of using reason here. Apple fanboys will justify any nonsense on Apple's behalf, even if a deaf, dumb and blind person would be able to identify them as nonsense.

People list what they need FW for (all reasonable) and get all kinds of friendly condescending bullshit: Move your FW disks into a USB case, buy a bigger Mac, buy a heavier Mac, buy a more expensive Mac, buy an old Mac, use eBay, get an engineering degree and mess with the guts of the damn thing yourself, anything and then some... barely a single person with the decency, reason and attitude to even imagine others could have a reasonable need and - HE forbid - Apple might have made a mistake. Just imagine all these great lemmings would be with Scientology... measuring the brain activity of tomatoes would be more popular than baseball.

Originally Posted by freakboy

You sure about that? On paper gigabit ethernet is faster but my experience copying large amounts of data is that they're either about the same of FW800 is faster.

Originally Posted by corinhorn

All that I know for sure is I will not spend one bloody dime on an Apple notebook until FireWire is back on the MacBook. I'm not going to spend an extra $500 to get the MacBook Pro.

I've been a Mac user for 10 years, and for the first time ever I am considering buying a Dell.

Originally Posted by TenoBell

Its not misdirection. This argument is about transferring video over USB. I'm pointing out it is possible.

Yes transferring a digital file is not real time like running a tape. Its not real time because data transfer is much faster. But that's just an advantage of that method.

Originally Posted by jimdorr

If you work as photographer for several Vogue magazines in the world (as I did) it's the wrong color and material. And 15" is too big.

Originally Posted by melgross

Ah, they do this in the PC world as well. You can't even get FW on most PCs.

Used your parallel printer lately?

Originally Posted by TenoBell

I don't think they will really listen to anything you've said.

The answer will come accusing you of mindlessly going along with whatever Steve Jobs tells you.

Originally Posted by melgross

Never, ever figure that an interface standard won't be replaced. Never, ever!

Apple pioneered SCSI for mainstream computers for many years, then they dropped it like a hot potato. You want me to tell you of the problems that ensued?

I have two FW towers, now in the Attic of Old Machinery Museum I maintain upstairs.

I don't miss them. I much prefer my E-SATA.

Goodby to FW. RIP in lower priced machines.

It will live on in the pro machines for a while yet.

But, next year comes USB 3, far superior to USB 2, and even in some respects FW.

Then also next year comes Power Over SATA and E-SATA, which kills FW cold for drives.

When those two are out, Apple should take them up, as pro equipment will.

We should start seeing them on Apple's machines next year, along with Duispay Port.

It's going to be a whole new world of connectors out there, learn to love it, we will have several years before they all change again.

Originally Posted by retroneo

All you need is a simple cable

USB to Firewire

Originally Posted by dposxfan

Hey, think about it. That's the best way to get back at a vendor. Buy from someone else and tell them too bad you pissed me off! As I'll always say that if HP, Sony etc. are using the FW port then Apple should too. Hey HP makes several laptops in the sub $900 range that have FW. And as for target mode it's saved me many times. You can talk about USB and Intel, but Microsoft is the big fan of USB. I guess Apple is tying to act like them too. Hell Apple might as well bring the great Satan himself, Bill Gates on board so he and Steve can be buddy-buddy.

Originally Posted by plokoonpma

Its used also in RIPS but those live long attached to PowerMacs or Mac Pros.

Originally Posted by coolfactor

Apple's thinking is and always will be slightly ahead of consumers' thinking. Sure, we hate to lose Firewire, a technology that has a cool name, great performance, and bragging rights, since Apple invented it. But if you stop and think about it... the MacBook (which no longer has Firewire) is targeted to a market that probably won't ever use Firewire. The vocal minority here are the ones that should be looking at a MacBook Pro anyway, which still has their beloved port.

(Firewire has saved my butt many times over with Target Disk Mode, but I understand that the landscape changes, and so will our products. Just look at the myriad of display/video ports we've gone through in the past few years).

Originally Posted by melgross

I recommend SuperDuper over CCC. CCC sometimes has problems with Permissions amongst others, though it's generally pretty good (and cheap). But SuperDuper is more reliable.

Originally Posted by ecking

Fair enough on those points, but without expresscard or esata on the macbooks apple hasn't left anyone who owns a gen 1 alu macbook with those options.

Do you really think it's fair for apple to remove it now because in a year or two other models may have those things?

if I bought a new macbook they wouldn't retrofit usb3 or esata onto it at a later date, anyone who buys now is going to be left in the cold.

Originally Posted by LanPhantom

Why that is the most idiotic statement yet. Why is everyone so up in arms about this decision that Apple has made about this? Most of the people who buy these entry level "Consumer" grade computers don't need firewire. If you are one of those people who need it, cough up the extra money and get a MacBook Pro. Otherwise, I'm SURE there will be a market that opens up for PCI Express cards JUST for the macbooks to allow for the firewire.

Keep in mind, Apple caters to the majority, if you are a hardcore Music maker or a videophile, get a refurbished macbook or upgrade and get the MacBook macdaddy Pro.

If you are still pissed enough to ditch your mac and go get a DELL, well have a nice day. That grass is definitely NOT greener, as a matter of fact, it's a yard full of rocks and crab grass.

LanPhantom

Originally Posted by iedsri

Folks, the problem with dropping FireWire is simple to understand. Type in "transferring files" in Help and this is what you get -- this is ALL you get (i.e. the ONLY option that Apple recommends):

Transferring files between two computers using FireWire:

You can use a FireWire cable to connect your computer to another Mac and have one of the computers appear as an external hard disk on the other computer. This is sometimes called Target Disk Mode. To transfer files using FireWire: Shut down the computer to be used as a disk. Leave the other computer on. Connect the two computers with a FireWire cable.
Start up the computer to be used as a disk, then open System Preferences, click Startup Disk, and click Target Disk Mode. (Or, start it up while holding down the T key.) A disk icon appears on the desktop of the other computer. Transfer files by dragging them to and from the disk.
Eject the disk by dragging its icon to the Trash. (While you drag, the Trash icon changes to an Eject icon.) On the computer you used as a disk, push the power button to shut it down, and then disconnect the FireWire cable. If one of the computers is running Mac OS 9, it must have FireWire version 2.3.3 or later installed. Use Apple System Profiler (in the Utilities folder of the Applications folder) to check the version of FireWire installed. If it is an older version, get an update at the Apple FireWire website.


The reason this is the only method Apple Help explains is because it's by FAR the best, simplest, most reliable and fastest way to transfer files.

All of the other methods that have been suggested in this thread are TERRIBLE compared with FireWire.

You've even got people here suggesting -- apparently without a hint of irony -- that we should all start dismantling the innards of our machines and removing the hard drives to make a simple file transfer! Talk about PC thinking! It reminds me of my Dad back in the '80s insisting on building his old 6080 (or whatever) from a Heath kit because it was a few pennies cheaper (naturally he never got the kit to actually work. Both it and he were, after all, PCs.)

That is all.

Originally Posted by melgross

Ah, they do this in the PC world as well. You can't even get FW on most PCs.

Used your parallel printer lately?

Originally Posted by dreyfus2

Well, this used to be true - since CCC is at 3.1 I never had these problems again. Unfortunately now it has a nasty bug with scheduled tasks - if the external drive is not available at backup time, it creates a folder with the same name under /Volumes and fills your disk neatly.

Originally Posted by zunx

YOU DO NOT GET IT.

Firewire is needed on ALL Macs for repairs and troubleshooting via Target Disk Mode. That simple. And it costs a mere 25 cents to implement as many Firewire ports as you want on a machine.

Therefore the excuse of price is not valid. The excuse of space on the Mac Book Air (which is expensive) does not stand either, since tiny and cheap devices like the Kanguru Fire Flash (pen drive) have a Firewire connection:

http://www.kanguru.com/fireflash.html

THERE IS ONLY ONE ANSWER TO THIS ABUSE: stop buying ANY Apple product. Then and only then they will place Firewire on the MacBook and on the MacBook Air (which our University wanted to purchase when and only when has Firewire for repairs and troubleshooting).

Do not get me wrong. I am a Mac evangelist and have been for almost 20 years now. But this serious error-flaw must be fixed ASAP!

Originally Posted by dreyfus2

Actually I can install FW on almost any PC in existence (slot, PCMCIA or ExpressCard), Sony has FW on quite a few (most?) of their machines. If I want to add anything to any Apple device fun starts at 2k.

Your impression about PC users is a bit flawed - they do often have wrong ideas and little knowledge about Apple and OS X, but they are quite critical with MS and very demanding with the hardware makers, they just lack taste though - at least I do not know many PC users that would pay half the prices for some of the articles in the Apple ecosystem. 100 USD to connect an Apple display to an Apple laptop? It requires qualified maniacs to swallow that.

I have no more parallel printers, but still proudly own an Okidata needle printer (serial) that I need for a program I have written in 1987 (the great days when 640KB were enough for everything).

Originally Posted by melgross

That's ridiculous. I suppose the other 96% of the worlds computers can't be repaired because they don't have FW disk transfer?