Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire - Page 7

Maybe the real issue here is about Apple's insistence that it knows what's best for it's consumers. I guess what gets me is the fact that they could offer more options. People here keep saying, "Well, if you want a pro machine, then get a MBP!" That's not the point. The point is that a lot of people want more options. I want a 13inch laptop with a dedicated video card with HDMI or Display Port out? Why? Because there's proof that Intel's integrated solutions don't adequately fun Hi-Def video or games. Even if the new Nvidia integrated GPU is more powerful than Intel's solutions, it's still not as powerful as a dedicated 256mb or 512mb video card. That was proven on the Spore videos on Gizmodo's website. (it may be even more relevant once the external Blu-Ray drives become available)

People here want a smaller laptop to carry around...and even if the current 15inch MBP fits in a MB bag, there's still the fact that the MB has a smaller footprint and weighs less than the MBP. But, Apple has dictated that the smaller laptop is only for consumers interested in making documents and surfing the internet. Would it really kill them to produce a "Pro" model with a 13inch screen and a dedicated GPU? Not really. Hell, they could charge a premium for it and the people that want it would pay it. There's also the "buy an Air" crowd, but that still doesn't erase the fact that the Air is a neutered laptop. Yeah, it's sexy, but it's for a totally different purpose than the MB or the MBP.

On the other side, I'd like a 15inch Macbook. Something with a big screen without the Pro features I'll never use. Hell, you can get a Lenovo Ideabook with a 15inch screen and DDR3 graphics for just over a grand. No, it doesn't have an all aluminum enclosure, but then, I don't pick my laptop up by the corner and wiggle it so see if it actually flexes. (though I don't understand why they put a 1280X800 screen in it...)

See the point? It's about options. Maybe Apple doesn't provide as many as the big boys because it's more worried about the bottom line still. Once it gets more market share then maybe it'll start worrying about options and catering to a larger crowd of consumers. I'm on the fence. The quality of the new machines is spectacular, but I'd still like more options.

That's amazing. I guess no Apple machine before FW, was repairable either.

The first B/W's and everything that came before.

Talk about being blind.

I have certainly not looked at all models (I have not looked at vendors I would never buy from and that includes Dell, HP and Toshiba), so this could be right. But among the ones I have looked at in the 1200-1600 USD range (which I do not really consider low cost) I did not see a single one (other than really expensive sub-notebooks below 12") missing that feature.

And seeing that others can add a slew of useful features (and obviously some doubtful ones) to 12" devices being lighter and smaller than the MacBook (like in the mentioned Lenovo X200) or even smoke the MBP in connectivity and performance (like the W500) and still maintain the highest level of support almost all around the world and make profits, while Apple has to screw us on every single accessory and cannot even match that service outside the US... was quite an eye opener. In this regard I was quite happy about the keynote. A company that is arrogant and off-ground enough to invite the press to present nothing else than an improved manufacturing process (that did not even result in more competitive pricing), less features on every single item (except for the MBA which had none to start with) and a glossy 24" display that will not work with any existing Apple computer, is not the company that was leading the computer business with innovations for some years. All they have presented was "less for more".

This has been a fascinating couple of days.

Here's what will happen. You will accept it. You are Mac users; that's what you do, The alternative would, for one thing, mean admitting you were taken for a ride and you are not really the kind of people who are happy doing that.
Jobs is moving the platform back to a closed ecosytem the like of which the IT industry has only seen once before ... and Jobs was in charge of it back then too. The difference is that he has an incompetent Microsoft and clever marketing on his side, which is why he will succeed.
Take the Apple ads for instance. They are used to reinforce your sense of superiority so that when Apple pulls stuff like this, you won't actually do very much about it (apart from a little bit of online whining). Because what would be the alternative? Moving to Windows? But that would mean you'd be like the boring fat bloke with the specs. No, you'll stay right where you are and you'll take what you're given.

The Firewire thing is the right move I'm afraid. It is a shame, but Intel undercut Apple on the licensing charges (and at the time, Apple had no choice but to try to make some money from it) and so USB won out. They have no choice but to phase it out, which is precisely what they've been doing and if you could all just step out from the Apple church for the moment, you will see that they have been doing it in precisely the right order; working from the consumer devices, up to the professional level.

The mistake they have made is charging more and giving less. I'm not sure that this is the correct economic environment for something like that, but time will tell.

And of course, once Apple has tapped the fanboys who will buy shiny new Cupertino kit at any price, then the prices will come down to reasonable levels (and any kinks will have been ironed out too). So please, stop saying they're too expensive! The sooner the gullible ones have done their thing, then the sooner the rest of you can dive in at lower prices!

From what the more sensible people are saying, the real problem is not the removal of Firewire, but the lack of anything that comes close to replacing it. USB doesn't cut it. Also the folk who say stupid stuff like

'Just buy a Macbook Pro, ya whiney cheapskate'.

Have completely missed the point. Given the amount of money that Mac folk are willing to splash out on stuff, then I really don't think money is the issue; the problem is the size of the machine.
Apple could probably save itself a ton of grief if they just built a Macbook Pro in a 13.3" chassis. Decent graphics card, charge a premium (y'know ... cause it's small) and the problem's solved. They could continue phasing out Firewire from the bottom end.

I'm just happy my old 12" PBG4 is still going strong!

perhaps jobs (or whoever it is) will soon respond to the outrage over the lack of matte screen options.... firewire aside, these new laptops and their glass screens are an absolute disaster for any visual arts pros or other creative professionals.

EXACTLY! (Though I'd rather they didn't charge too much of a premium.)

To me it's ok to show one's snob-attitude by using Apple products (This is would some university studies revealed).

But there are also people out there who just use Apple because it's easier and more comfortable to get things done with theses machines. These people need all CURRENT standard connectivity, as well as matte displays. That's a fact, and no whining of people loving old school equipment.

But it's as like Apple says:

New design. New features. New technologies.

All engineered to standards THAT DON'T EVEN EXIST, YET.

It's a safe bet that, in two or three years, the next generation of MacBook Pros will not include FireWire. Neither will the next generation of iMacs. Even the Mac Pros will eventually give up FireWire.

Even if Apple were to continue including FireWire on every Mac, within a few years Apple would be the only company producing FireWire products. My only surprise here is that Apple are phasing FireWire out slowly, rather than dropping it like a hot potato -- as they have done with other technologies in the past.

It's a nonissue because it can be easily fixed with a screen overlays like the ones available for the iPhone.


I defy you to show me one full sized (as in non-netbook*) PC notebook that does not have either a Cardbus or ExpressCard slot. I sold cheap laptops working at Staples during grad school and even the $200 special we had last black friday had full expansion capabilities. EVERY full sized notebook, from the tiny 10" Sony Vaio TT to the insane Alienware notebooks have these expansion slots, sometimes both.

*By netbook, I mean the class of computers that usually run Linux or Windows XP have super low powered CPUs and usually have small flash drives with 8-10" screens.


You are aware that before Firewire, target disk mode was implemented using SCSI, right?

They do that because of the massive complains. Remember when they axed the FW800 on the MBP? That was their first attempt of phasing it out. It didn't work.

The lesson here is simple: Don't invest in NEW firewire products anymore. It's a warning shot... You can still get two laptops that support your old devices, but don't expect to be able to do so in two years.

This is really the most painless way of doing this. Nobody really depends on Firewire. Everything that uses it can be replaced by USB 2.0. It's just a temporary inconvenience like the Intel transition. (I mourn Firewire, too, but don't mind switching to a future-proof industry standard in the long run.)

Now Steve, let's hear about the glossy screens.

That will be the day that hell freezes over. Tell that to Digidesign and M-Audio, Mackie and other Pro Audio equipment manufacturers that use firewire. My gripe is I would've liked to see 2 firewire ports on the Pro model. USB is still not as reliable as firewire. I've had my share of problems with it. Hey I have one of the last iPods that had firewire as well as USB2. Guess what when I use the USB to sync it to my Mac it some times drops out and screws up. I use firewire to sync it up it NEVER screws up. I guess it'll take USB3 to come close. But by then who will care about Apple by then. Because Windows 7 will be out too. I bet Steve Ballmer is having a good laugh at what's going on.

All that thread about Firewire is essentially emotional. Let's face and state the logical and physical fact: the space on the mother board.

As I noted before, and if you look closely, you will see that 90 % of the logic board is used up for power supply. Nowdays, CPU and chipset require multiple voltage sources, most of them adaptative so they can optimize for power. They work with very low voltages, typically for CPUs under 1 V, but since they still consume 30 W or so, that means being able to source more than 30 A — which is more than my home mains supply can.

Now, those voltages are stepped down from the battery own voltage. This is done using switch-mode DC-DC converters that use both a FET as a chopper and inductors/capacitors to filter out the ripples. The problem is that the more current you suck, the bigger those discretes must be. That's physical laws, Maxwell equations, Ohm law: a good power supply takes a minimum of space, and that minimum increases with current demand. And supplying high current requires a minimum of resistance, which means bigger wires, traces and discretes.

When that necessary space is taken into account, where to put the Firewire logic?

The most obvious response, and the most space-saving, is "inside the chipset". Alas, the nVidia chipset Apple has chosen DOES NOT support FireWire. This is no exception: no chipset I know does. They all have multiple USB 2 lines, but no FireWire. It has therefore to be implemented in an external chip. Given the speed of the interface, that chip has to be located as close as possible to the connector. Then, you have to route a full PCI bus from the chipset to the FireWire chip. Who has already routed logic boards? I have. I can tell you it's a pain, especially when space is so small.

Anyhow, there is simply no space available, contrarily to the 15" MBP which benefits from a larger logic board. Apple just kept whatever interfaces were built in the chipset: Gigabit Ethernet, USB, DDR3 support, DisplayPort, SATA (I wonder how the 802.11n and Bluetooth cards are accessed. Through a dedicated USB 2 link maybe?). They could not afford the increase of space Firewire support would have required, and there was no space to add a connector anyway: think they already had to develop their own mini-DisplayPort to save up space.

The loss of FireWire is unavoidable when you consider this simple facts. It is a logical consequency of the overall mechanical design: they have reclaimed the space they allocated to FireWire before. You can't have your cake and eat it.

I think that the future is certainly not firewire-based real-time capturing so I can understand the forward-thinking approach. If you shoot 3 hours of HDV footage, it's a pain to have to wait 3 hours to import it so you can edit it. Ideally, it would capture while shooting and then you just have a data transfer to deal with. Even at the laptop write speed of 20MB/s, a 60GB file should go over in 50-60 minutes, almost 1/3rd the speed of a real-time capture.

Hard drive or DVD-based camcorders aren't always as reliable as tape-based camcorders though and real-time USB captures can drop frames.

The biggest problem that a lack of firewire brings is for people who already own good, possibly expensive firewire-only camcorders because there is no solution. Apple are essentially requiring you to buy a new camcorder. Buying all new hardware or software due to an Apple design decision isn't exactly a new experience but it's not any more pleasant.

At the very least, why didn't they put on an extra USB port?

Actually, you are beginning to sound boring.
But then, you appear to know even more than Steve Jobs.

John

Actually, removing a non-bootable drive and attaching it via a USB bridge does work. What workaround are you having problems with?


Actually the article states, not what Mac users like, but the realities of the larger PC industry. Without FireWire adoption throughout the PC industry, there's no critical mass of adoption to bring component costs down. At some point, reality trumps idealism. Nobody is arguing that the lack of FireWire is a good thing, but describing a rational view as heresy because you have an emotional attachment to FireWire isn't really useful.


By your logic, adding a half dozen other ports would only cost an extra $12! I vote for Fibre Channel, USB 3.0, FW3200, eSATA, magic beans, and rainbows! And here's my $12. Where's my custom laptop?


So "today's economy" is the rationale for demanding that Apple support technologies rejected by the mass market, and instead jack up the price to to cover something most new buyers don't care about? Perhaps you have that backwards.


Actually Apple's MacBook customers are mostly students and former PC users, neither of whom are likely to pay more for FireWire.

Thank you, EauVive. Very informative.

I suspected that there were technical reasons as well as Business reasons for dropping FireWire from the new MacBooks.

Some of the comments here are almost "terroristic" in their tenor, rather than simply emotional.

John

Is it not possible to transfer data from a camcorder to a dual-interfaced USB/FireWire disk? I mean, do the camcorders always act as slaves, or can they also be masters and transfer to an external peripheral?

As for the extra USB port, the same question returns: where to put it?

Someone wondered why they did not sacrifice the Gigabit Ethernet port for a USB to Ethernet adapter. But that's a joke: the USB throughput is a fraction only of what a GigaEthernet port can achieve...

Well I have used Apple products for 8 years now and the ONLY thing that I have used with Firewire
is iSight nothing else. Everything else is all USB 2: 2 HD, scanner, printer, camcorder, digi camera, multi mem card reader, iPod Touch. So to be honest I won't miss Firewire that much because I just don't use it very much beside my iSight. So I feel Job has made a good decision but he could of put another USB port to replace the Firewire port though.

You mean direct connection through the Ethernet ports without a router in between?

My point was to show that USB is slower than FW400 and 800. It doesn't matter which one you use. Even if I was using FW400 with TimeMachine, I still wouldn't be able to imagine using USB to back up. Therefore my point is not moot just because I happen to own an MacBook Pro.

I heard this argument with the first MacBook Pro in 2006. "There's no room for another port!". Guess what? The next version had it. They MADE room. Are you seriously saying that Sony can find room for a firewire controller and everything else this computer has on the TINY 11", 2lb VAIO TT (complete with Bluray burner), but Apple can't? Spare me.

Watch them transition to USB 3.


Apple will support USB 3 before Microsoft and Windows 7 will be just as mediocre as Windows 1 through Vista. By that time, Apple will have a larger market cap than Microsoft. Currently, Apple's market cap is $90B and Microsoft's is $220B.

Here we agree.


Do you see anything else possible in the tightly integrated and short in available space MB than a faster FW or USB3? I do not. I think USB3 is a no brainer now and Apple most certainly will do it, but the benefits over the fast FW versions are yet to be seen.

OK, After reading more reply. i understand. But the question still remain, why not a Macbook Pro?

And as much as you all hate to admit..... Firewire is pretty much dead. I think apple now have to admit they lost the battle. It is now only used in Professional or Higher priced Products.

And most new Mac user ( coming from PC ) wont miss Firewire Port at all.

He was probably high on testosterone when he replied, but the point is valid: is not about being able to do repairs or not (since we very well know that you can), but about ease and convenience of doing so.

Camcorders (conventional tape based ones) can only playback data to the Firewire/iLink/DV or video and audio outputs (composite or - the better ones - component plus audio). It is playback, not data transfer. That's it. Some/most models might support devices like the Firestore (an external HD that can capture video from an Firewire input and convert it to a target format like Quicktime on the fly), but these devices are extremely expensive (for consumer standards), more expensive than most camcorders. So, yes, people with tape-based Firewire camcorders can either get a new camcorder or a different laptop. No alternatives.

Wow. 250+ replies and I haven't gotten a word in yet. I'm glad it's not just me.

It's clear that everyone involved in the new MB launch is feeling the heat over the removal of Firewire.
Jobs doesn't answer emails like that every day.

And in typical Jobs fashion, it's more important to look at what he doesn't say.

He doesn't answer anyone with a more thorough complaint, addressing the fact that hard drive speeds are now a huge factor in the MacOS experience because his Time Machine is the biggest feature in Leopard.

He doesn't talk at all about TDM. Doesn't mention that Audio and Video experiences will be diminished using this "state of the art" laptop.

MacBook sales will still be respectable, because many people were anticipating this upgrade and will rush out to buy a month into the school year. But the hard fact is that Apple has completely blown the introduction of its Unibody process by allowing its introduction to be usurped by a rage of complaints over the exclusion of Firewire.

Don't believe me? This thread is on page 7 already. The much-older thread on the manufacturing process is only at two pages.
And that situation is being replayed all over the Net.

PC advocates, rather than acknowledging the Mac's lead in design, are emboldened by the fact that the conversation is now about how few features you get on a Mac laptop. And that conversation is being led by the Mac partisans, not the PC ones.

It is hard to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, but Apple has done it again.

That's very clever! I actually don't remember when I used the Ethernet port on my notebook the last time... It must have been in May when I was backing up some 40GB towards an internal server. Ethernet adapter through USB is a solution whenever you need the raw Ethernet speed.
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I don't think the decision to drop the port was so hard after all:
1. Production cost is lower.
2. Apple's investigations SURELY show that consumers don't use FireWire at all.
3. If Apple manage to move Prosumers and poor musicians up to MacBook Pro, they probably earn more money.

I still think they should offer a top line Macbook with Firewire. It's ridiculous not to, goddamnit!

No, until a few days ago every Mac had FW. Then suddenly Apple baptises FW a Pro feature...

Sony designs its own ASICs. They might have integrated it with other functions. Apple, as far as I know, does not, at least not for these models, but they may in the future. Then, how thick is the Vaio TT?

Then why until three days ago every Mac had it? Why the Mini still has it?

How is dead when from the whole range of Mac computers only the new MBs don't have it? Or do you believe that Apple will remove it from the MBP for example the moment when much faster versions of it will be available?

No, for me it is clear that FW became the new consumer vs. pro differentiator. I believe that once FW 3200 is ready Apple will include it and will market it as a high end pro feature. With or without USB3.

Well, to be honest, I do not think that the combination of backup and speed is a known concept in Cupertino at all. Breath out and whisper "Time Capsule"...

VAIO TT Weights and Measurements

* Dimensions (Approx.) : 10.99"(W) x 0.93"(H) x 7.87"(D)6,7

* Weight (Approx.) : 2.87 lbs.7

The answer is very simple: they use a very-low power CPU. Low power = much less space devoted to power supply = space freed for peripherals. Don't look elsewhere.

I have never used the Ethernet port in the last five years. But I would not like to see it go. Not yet at least. It is a very fundamental feature.


It must be so. Apple sure conducted some research before taking the decision and guess what, the results turned in their favor, that is no need of FW for the vast majority of users. So let's remove it but let's raise also the price since the new manufacturing process is more costly. Fat margin machines? Probably.


Yes, this is my feeling too. Guess we are out of luck for now. For me, and since the new design is going to last for years (meaning no more space for more ports), ideally Apple could transition in the future one port to USB3 and the other one to a newer FW version. In the high end at least, since Apple seems to have deemed FW as a pro feature. Having 1 USB + 1 FW is more convenient than no FW at all.

What a fuss about nothing. Give it 4 months and all this bollocks will be forgotten.

Remember the move from PPC to Intel? I wonder how many of those moaners and doomsayers are here on this forum today? Plenty is my guess.

Remember the iMovie 08? What outrage there was. Again, my guess is there are lots of "video producers" here today who were on their high horses then.

Apple leads, and you can follow if you want. Go back to cruddy cheapo Windows laptops if you want and leave the rest of us to get on with it.

OR, if you ARE serious about video and Firewire, buy a bleeding PRO Macbook...!!

And to all those mindless posters who blame Steve, just remember that there are a lot of intelligent people at Apple and a lot of intelligent people that feed into that organisation. So my advice is stop making things personal. That said, I'm sure Steve can take it.

No, they should have one USB and one FW port if the goal was two ports maximum. You can always expand your USB port but you can do nothing if there is no FW at all. See also my point above.

Hi Steve

Hi Connor, what can I do for you?

Well, I was thinking of getting one of your new laptops, the MacBook 13", but it doesn't have a firewire port, and I kinda need one.

No you don't.

I do Steve, I have an iPod that's firewire only, my external hard drive is firewire, sure it has USB 2 also but if I use that I have to find a power outlet and use a clunky power brick and it's noticeably slower. I also have a 35mm film scanner that's firewire only.

You still have a firewire iPod? - Hahahahaha! Buy a new one, simple.

But it still works fine, I don't really see the need...

Listen Conner, do you have any idea what it costs to run a Gulfstream? Do you have any idea how much fuel that thing uses - hmmm? One load of fuel is more than your car uses in four years. Trust me, you need a new iPod.

But what about the film scanner, they're not cheap...

Film scanner? You're kidding me, right? No one still uses film.

I do. I like film, its self archiving, independent of power sources, and I have thousands invested in lenses.

Connor, do yourself a favour, trust me, get yourself a Canon 5D Mk II - I did.

But Steve, they cost over two grand! To replace my lenses would cost me another 15...

Connor, that's YOUR problem. Look, you're obviously a cheapskate, so just get yourself a USB film scanner, or better yet, just get the Pro.

But Steve, those options are another grand and...

Connor, The Gulfstream needs a new set of rubber - capiche?

Steve, but why couldn't you have just put a firewire port on it?

To save YOU money Connor. You whine and moan about replacing your hardware, but we were only thinking of you as a consumer. I'm truly disappointed that you don't appreciate our efforts on YOUR behalf.

Well, gee, sorry Steve, I guess maybe I was being a bit selfish and I didn't fully realise.......Say Steve, how much did it save?

Two dollars.
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Connor, you still there?

Please tell me you're joking. I work i an apple center, here about 50% of users need ethernet even on a notebok and like 99% of users doesn't even know what firewire is.