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Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire - Page 9

post #321 of 1657
If this wasn't a bad decision by Apple, there wouldn't be 300+ replies on this thread.
post #322 of 1657
OK, so they got rid of firewire on iPod, iPhone is USB, and now they got rid of it on one notebook. Yes, this IS a sign of what's coming. USB 3.0 is coming out soon, so that leads to one more thing that apple needs to compete with. I don't blame them for starting to remove firewire. sure people are going to be pissed, but this is a sign that we could POSSIBLY be moving to somewhat of a standard(that being USB). I can't wait for 3.0, but it wouldn't have hurt apple to wait until that day because they could have avoided all of these "real professionals" who can afford a "real camera" and not a macbook pro from complaining so bad.

I'm with apple. The tech world changes every day. whatever camera/laptop/computer you get today, will be slower than the one that sells a couple months from now. If you want the best stuff, you have to spend a LOT of money. That's just the way it is.

By the way, if you want to be a cheap ass (or a broke college kid like I was), get a cheap PC, throw out your windows disc and install linux. Suck it up and learn how to be a real computer user. Then you can bitch about hardware.
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post #323 of 1657
Quote:
I don't like Steve Ballmer, but this time he was right - leaving out features like FW and Blue-Ray is simply a way to get a higher margins. And support mainly consists of "better buy a new machine". Thank you.

No Ballmer is 90% NEVER RIGHT with whatever he says. Its Blu-Ray not Blue-Ray btw, you even got the spelling wrong...

Blu-Ray is nice to have but its still to early to start jumping in it, look at the burn speed of blu-ray players so far, 1X? 2X? That's so freaking slow considering the size of a blu-ray disc. Besides, most people these days don't burn backup datas into CDs they back it up into their external hard disk. Oh yea and if you say that because Blu-Ray disc is portable therefore its better then external hard disk, let me ask you, how many PCs OUT THERE that have a build-in blu-ray player? Most of them is buy to configuration and frankly, A LOT of people don't have blu-ray in their PCs or notebooks yet.

Besides, even if Apple introduce BD in the MBP, some people will start whining that there isn't BD in MB so whats the point of getting extra unnecessary criticism.

Quote:
Everybody wants the features of the mbpro to be in the mb?
And the mb is not useful if it doesn't have the features of the mbpro?

True, remember then the MBP gets multi-touch. People started complaining that Apple is ignoring the MB users and making the gap further, but now when the MB and MBP have pretty much the same feature, people start complaining that the gap between these 2 models is too small. Odd much? What's next, the MBP and MB will have the same GPU and everything except for the screen size and people will start saying Apple is ripping them off because if they want a 15" notebook they need to go to the MBP.

I do agree that they should put firewire in the MB, I don't see any wrong into placing a Firewire in the MB, cause it seems there are a quite big group of people who still need to use FW. Well then it will only be fair if Apple give 2 FW in the MBP .

Quote:
OK, so they got rid of firewire on iPod, iPhone is USB, and now they got rid of it on one notebook. Yes, this IS a sign of what's coming. USB 3.0 is coming out soon, so that leads to one more thing that apple needs to compete with. I don't blame them for starting to remove firewire. sure people are going to be pissed, but this is a sign that we could POSSIBLY be moving to somewhat of a standard(that being USB). I can't wait for 3.0, but it wouldn't have hurt apple to wait until that day because they could have avoided all of these "real professionals" who can afford a "real camera" and not a macbook pro from complaining so bad.

You have a point there, cause with the industry going towards glossy screens, I wonder in the future will it make a difference between matte or gloss since people will view graphic artist or some kind of artist works on glossy screen.


Hmm, oh yea anyone find an issue with the distance between the 2 USB ports?
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post #324 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by LE Studios View Post

Then buy a MacBook Pro what idiot would run a high end audio/video editing with a MacBook? That's why they made a MacBook Pro line to begin with!

For your information the MacBook is able to capture edit render and conform in DVCPro HD through the firewire port with a Motu V4HD... even an older 1,83 ghz MacBook can do it. And it is still a valid editing station in DVCpro HD for longer projects with media saved on a gigabit networked disk.... (DVCPRO HD is 10 bit YUV 422 @ 1920*1080)
MacBook Black 2.2 Ghz Nov 2007 MacBook Black 2 Ghz Oct 2006 PowerMacintosh G4 450 Dual Atto UL3D 3 Cheetah 10 000 rpm Power Macintosh G4 450 Dual Osx 10.5 Server - Motu V4HD - JVC DT24 L3D...
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MacBook Black 2.2 Ghz Nov 2007 MacBook Black 2 Ghz Oct 2006 PowerMacintosh G4 450 Dual Atto UL3D 3 Cheetah 10 000 rpm Power Macintosh G4 450 Dual Osx 10.5 Server - Motu V4HD - JVC DT24 L3D...
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post #325 of 1657
http://www.petitiononline.com/MB1394/petition.html

please take the time to sign and spread the word to others!
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post #326 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterEjag View Post

If you need a FireWire 400 port or connection - simply buy an adapter ($9.00) and get to work

You can go here;
https://eshop.macsales.com/item/Othe...ng/1394B6912C/

and purchase, or one of many other places - bottom line - if you need FW400, you can EASILY get it on the new MB/MB Pro's

Mister Ejag

Thanks these people are some true small minded idiots! I'm rather shocked I never seen so many stupid people with a Mac. I honestly felt the people that own a Mac are more intelligent then the average PC. I expected Mac users to be the Elite Class! Was I wrong?
post #327 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by LE Studios View Post

Thanks these people are some true small minded idiots! I'm rather shocked I never seen so many stupid people with a Mac. I honestly felt the people that own a Mac are more intelligent then the average PC. I expected Mac users to be the Elite Class! Was I wrong?

i agree, posts like that are not a showcase for informed posting...
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post #328 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

[...]
If we are going to place any real blame on Apple it should be for not having the foresight to make the FW400 and FW800 ports the same so direct backwards compatibility could be maintained the way that USB3.0 will, but we all saw this coming years ago, even if we didn't want to accept it.

From this:

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/01...sb_3_revealed/

it appears that the USB 3 socket is backwards compatible, but the connectors do differ. So it's not that much different than the Firewire 800 port on the latest MacBook Pro. In both cases you can use the older peripheral on the newer port, just that with USB 3 you can use your existing USB 2 cable, and with Firewire you need to buy a 6 to 9 pin cable if you don't have one already.
post #329 of 1657
Someone is whining and is going to quit buying and recommending MACs because their new product does not include a firewire port?

I still design products that use serial ports using a development systems that requires a parallel port. Both of these ports were the standard for many years; however, computer manufacturers have labeled these communication ports as outdated.

Technology changes. I adapt.

Fusillade
post #330 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by pilottage View Post

For your information the MacBook is able to capture edit render and conform in DVCPro HD through the firewire port with a Motu V4HD... even an older 1,83 ghz MacBook can do it. And it is still a valid editing station in DVCpro HD for longer projects with media saved on a gigabit networked disk.... (DVCPRO HD is 10 bit YUV 422 @ 1920*1080)

So Apple don't need to change to keep up with Studios who don't want to change and we get to spend more money on MacBooks for this? Dude everybody who buy a mac isn't going to make a 1080p HD Cinematic Movie with 5.1 Surround Sound! If I wanted to which I do I'm buying the 15" MacBook Pro! If I want to do Digital Photography then I'm buying a MacBook Air with SSD for that purpose! It depends on the consumer need and what the want of course anybody that going to do anything definitely make a budget before beginning a production of any kind.
post #331 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by corinhorn View Post

All that I know for sure is I will not spend one bloody dime on an Apple notebook until FireWire is back on the MacBook. I'm not going to spend an extra $500 to get the MacBook Pro.

I've been a Mac user for 10 years, and for the first time ever I am considering buying a Dell.

Let me help you. http://www.dell.com/content/products...~857204&page=1

When you finished configuring your dream machine with FireWIre, I would love to hear what your finally decision.

Would also love to hear what you are using now.

Good luck.

P.S. I think you will have to admit that you wouldn't get such assistance from PC fanboys.

P.P.S. I challenge anybody else to do the same for Sony, Acer, Lenovo, or whatever. Mac Users would really like to know. Maybe we are missing something.
post #332 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fusillade View Post

Someone is whining and is going to quit buying and recommending MACs because their new product does not include a firewire port?

I still design products that use serial ports using a development systems that requires a parallel port. Both of these ports were the standard for many years; however, computer manufacturers have labeled these communication ports as outdated.

Technology changes. I adapt.

Fusillade

Yes!!! you adapt, exactly. people for some reason don't understand that concept!
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post #333 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by LE Studios View Post

You guys truly weak minded bombastic simpletons! Freedom of choice buy a MacBook or buy a MacBook Pro with firewire!

It's really hopeless to discuss with you idiologically poisened people.

Apple should tailor you a Macbook with no USB port and Steve telling you that you just don't need the port anymore (as there will be a much faster uptdate sometime in the future). Until the new standard will be released just buy you an adapter cause there's a workaround with ethernet.
post #334 of 1657
Not a great move on Apples part that appears to be clear, but it's not like they dropped it all together.

Yes you'll have to invest a bit more money to get it, but if your equipment needs firewire, then getting a better Mac is likely to be a good idea as well.

I currently use fire as often as possible * file transfer from Nikon memory stick to iPhoto. I just got the new Firewire reader from Sandisk, but Yes I still have the USB version as well.

We all know Apple did this to keep their margins, and still lower the price by $100.00. We wanted to cheaper Laptop, and Apple came thur, even if they did get rid of some stuff.

The real question is, how many folks who want the Cheap laptop, need firewire?

How many of these same folks can afford the next level up, and in fact, will get that model?

How many folks need firewire, use firewire, that can't get away with USB?

If there are adaptors available (as pointed out by another poster) for $9.00, buy one of those if you really need one. Yes it means Apple is forcing you to buy something else instead of including it, and if they sell for $9.00, how much would it have cost Apple to keep it?

Yes including it, making room for it, and other considerations, would likely have made it more then $9.00, but let's think about it.

Is any amount of BAD press, worth $9.00 NO FICKING WAY!

At least, that's my opinion.

Skip
post #335 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fusillade View Post

Someone is whining and is going to quit buying and recommending MACs because their new product does not include a firewire port?

I still design products that use serial ports using a development systems that requires a parallel port. Both of these ports were the standard for many years; however, computer manufacturers have labeled these communication ports as outdated.

Technology changes. I adapt.

Fusillade

Thanks, Intelligent Mac users are coming out!
post #336 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by someoneinca View Post

So what does Steve want people to do? Throw out their firewire cameras and buy new USB based ones? What about Time Machine. I use FW800 with Time Machine and I can't even imagine having to use USB to back up my stuff

And I use firewire for time machine and my printer. I guess I'll have to buy all new cables. You think Steve wil pay for them?
post #337 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncee View Post

Not a great move on Apples part that appears to be clear, but it's not like they dropped it all together.

Yes you'll have to invest a bit more money to get it, but if your equipment needs firewire, then getting a better Mac is likely to be a good idea as well.

I currently use fire as often as possible * file transfer from Nikon memory stick to iPhoto. I just got the new Firewire reader from Sandisk, but Yes I still have the USB version as well.

We all know Apple did this to keep their margins, and still lower the price by $100.00. We wanted to cheaper Laptop, and Apple came thur, even if they did get rid of some stuff.

The real question is, how many folks who want the Cheap laptop, need firewire?

How many of these same folks can afford the next level up, and in fact, will get that model?

How many folks need firewire, use firewire, that can't get away with USB?

If there are adaptors available (as pointed out by another poster) for $9.00, buy one of those if you really need one. Yes it means Apple is forcing you to buy something else instead of including it, and if they sell for $9.00, how much would it have cost Apple to keep it?

Yes including it, making room for it, and other considerations, would likely have made it more then $9.00, but let's think about it.

Is any amount of BAD press, worth $9.00 NO FICKING WAY!

At least, that's my opinion.

Skip


Thanks we need more people to come out and stand up for Apple!
post #338 of 1657
Why are the people that DON'T use firewire annoyed with the people that obviously NEED FW ports on a Macbook? It's a simple complaint. They want a port that is on the previous model on the better new updated Macbook. Calling them whiney is not an answer for anything. It's a legitimate question that people want answered. People that say "just buy an adapter" have never sat and captured video all day to come back to dropped frames. It's not a fun thing to have to recapture everything and lose time.

I've been a Mac user all my life and never had any problems with Macs... NEVER. But this did leave a bad taste in my mouth and I can't believe Mac users are claiming other Mac users are "whiney people who don't know what they are talking about". What ever happened to Mac unity and understanding?

I'd rather have 1 USB and 1 FW. If anyone complains about that then I guess I would have to say to them, why don't you buy an adapter? Seriously 1 of each would suffice on a Macbook. I own a Mac Pro at home and do all my HEAVY work on that, but was thinking of getting a Macbook just for capture/label/ingestion of video on the field. Since MBP's lost their Matte option and I don't do heavy editing on this machine, I was looking forward to the new MB. But now I'm just going to wait the year out and see how things play out in the Apple world.

It's a simple complaint. No whining hear. I'm long time Mac user and I'm quite disappointed with this.
post #339 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

And I use firewire for time machine and my printer. I guess I'll have to buy all new cables. You think Steve wil pay for them?

I got a Mac Mini I got two USB 2.0 External Seagate Hard Drives: one 750GB and other 1TB I got 750GB full Music, Music videos, TV Shows and Movies from iTunes. I used the 1TB to back it up well as the 120GB on my Mac Mini. It works fine!
post #340 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fusillade View Post

Someone is whining and is going to quit buying and recommending MACs because their new product does not include a firewire port?

I still design products that use serial ports using a development systems that requires a parallel port. Both of these ports were the standard for many years; however, computer manufacturers have labeled these communication ports as outdated.

There are chips and modules that convert USB to RS232. Are you hinting at that? I really love how simple RS232 is, for low intensity tasks, it's trivial to have a working RS232 prototype done in a lazy afternoon.
post #341 of 1657
But I will say this, the new designs are amazing and say one has to go to a store and really check them out.

The touch pad is simply genius. When are they going to replace the desktop mouse with a touch pad? I love LOVE my mighty mouse, but after trying out the new touch pad on the new MB and MBP... simply genius.
post #342 of 1657
So you even believe they left out the port because ot the margins...Apple marketing strategy at it's best. Do you know how much the prices for harddrives, RAM, CPUs etc. dropped since the last Macbooks were introduced? Apple still gives us only 160-250 GB harddrives and 2 GB RAM...why? They're sucking out us users.

But...all you fanboys...just go on justifying and supporting...Apple's a pooor company and needs your help.
post #343 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by PB View Post

Then why until three days ago every Mac had it? Why the Mini still has it?

The removal of FW didn't come out of left field. They even did something very un-Apple and kept a previous product model as the new low-end within a product category, that does have FW. On top of that, this move is less shocking and more of a lateral move to USB2.0 than the issue with the now beloved MBPs that completely dropped PCMCIA in favour of an unused, unknown ExpressCard/34 for which there were virtually no cards for. People who wanted a new replace their 15" PowerBook for a 15" MBP had to also get forego ever using PCMCIA again and often couldn't find the cards they wanted. It wasn't just an argument of slightly slower sustained reads. I'd say that was a much abrupt and affected a lot more people and things turned out okay, so I have faith with the loss of the obsolescing FW400.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB View Post

No, for me it is clear that FW became the new consumer vs. pro differentiator. I believe that once FW 3200 is ready Apple will include it and will market it as a high end pro feature. With or without USB3.

I think FW3200 and USB3.0 will be added, but that makes since because it's a future forward interface standard, using an already used port type. FW400 was a dead end and it's a shame that Apple didn't design FW400's interface standard to be grow as the speed grows. It's the Neanderthal of the IEEE ports that is more robust than USB but far less versatile.
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post #344 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody OnThe Nets View Post

Why are the people that DON'T use firewire annoyed with the people that obviously NEED FW ports on a Macbook? It's a simple complaint. They want a port that is on the previous model on the better new updated Macbook. Calling them whiney is not an answer for anything. It's a legitimate question that people want answered. People that say "just buy an adapter" have never sat and captured video all day to come back to dropped frames. It's not a fun thing to have to recapture everything and lose time.

I've been a Mac user all my life and never had any problems with Macs... NEVER. But this did leave a bad taste in my mouth and I can't believe Mac users are claiming other Mac users are "whiney people who don't know what they are talking about". What ever happened to Mac unity and understanding?

I'd rather have 1 USB and 1 FW. If anyone complains about that then I guess I would have to say to them, why don't you buy an adapter? Seriously 1 of each would suffice on a Macbook. I own a Mac Pro at home and do all my HEAVY work on that, but was thinking of getting a Macbook just for capture/label/ingestion of video on the field. Since MBP's lost their Matte option and I don't do heavy editing on this machine, I was looking forward to the new MB. But now I'm just going to wait the year out and see how things play out in the Apple world.

It's a simple complaint. No whining hear. I'm long time Mac user and I'm quite disappointed with this.

First Apple I every program was Apple IIc it didn't have Firewire didn't miss it! I have a Mac Mini that I owned for 8 Months I never used Firewire since I got it. All my printers are networked by connected to a Netgear Wireless Print Server (replacing with a 1TB Time Capsule set to 802.11n ONLY so I have 802.11n on majority of my network) I have three HP Photosmart 8450 and just got the HP C7180 last month. I got a Apple Airport Extreme with 802.11n and Airport Express with 802.11n. I want to get two 1TB Time Capsules next month. I got the optical going to my Logitech Z-5500 and last I got two Seagate External Drives one 750GB and other 1TB plus I still have my 16GB iPhone connected to USB 2.0 port. I really don't use the Firewire!
post #345 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Let me help you. http://www.dell.com/content/products...~857204&page=1

When you finished configuring your dream machine with FireWIre, I would love to hear what your finally decision.

Would also love to hear what you are using now.

Good luck.

P.S. I think you will have to admit that you wouldn't get such assistance from PC fanboys.

Better than that- a SONY VAIO TZ- no need to cinfigure.
Firewire port already there and only 2.7 pounds. Windoze unfortunately.

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...F:tz_vaio:sony

http://www.macworld.com/article/1317...mbavssony.html

And now on sale for $250 less than list price. ($1,650).
post #346 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by irobot2004 View Post

From this:

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/01...sb_3_revealed/

it appears that the USB 3 socket is backwards compatible, but the connectors do differ. So it's not that much different than the Firewire 800 port on the latest MacBook Pro. In both cases you can use the older peripheral on the newer port, just that with USB 3 you can use your existing USB 2 cable, and with Firewire you need to buy a 6 to 9 pin cable if you don't have one already.

I used the word 'direct' for a reason. USB1.0, 2.0 and 3.0 will require no adapter. To the user it is seamless. If i want to use my FW400 device on a FW800 device I can certainly do that but I do that 9-pin-FW800-to-6-pin-FW400 or 9-pin-FW800-to-4-pin-FW400. In that sense, FW400 was designed for the death we are seeing.

I do hope that FW400/800 over Ethernet gets worked out so people can get their target mode over the ubiquitous Cat5 cable on an RJ-45 jack.
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post #347 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by LE Studios View Post

I got a Mac Mini I got two USB 2.0 External Seagate Hard Drives: one 750GB and other 1TB I got 750GB full Music, Music videos, TV Shows and Movies from iTunes. I used the 1TB to back it up well as the 120GB on my Mac Mini. It works fine!

That sounds amazing- is the Seagate relatively quiet? I have a rather noisy LaCie.
post #348 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zauner View Post

It's really hopeless to discuss with you idiologically poisened people.

Apple should tailor you a Macbook with no USB port and Steve telling you that you just don't need the port anymore (as there will be a much faster uptdate sometime in the future). Until the new standard will be released just buy you an adapter cause there's a workaround with ethernet.

And we should all just buy external Blu-Ray drives because Steve says so- right?
How did he phrase it exactly: "Blu-ray is just a bag of hurt."
post #349 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

Nah, you are the one that is "plain wrong."

1) Apple has pushed FireWire constantly and persistently, and I don't think they can be blamed that no one else took it up.

2) Apple still supports FireWire on every single product it makes *except* the entry-level "cheap" (for Apple) MacBook.

3) You are not differentiating between consumer level cameras and Pro gear.

Bottom line is if you have a camera that only does FireWire, it's either old or "pro enough" that you should be comfortable affording the extra $700 bucks for the MacBook Pro.

The guy above that says he's a "video producer" but can only afford a MacBook and not a Pro? Give me a break. What a bunch of whiners.

There is a lot of arrogance going around this board.

My Canon, the cheapest model on Apple's online store (not sure if it's still there) only has FireWire to transfer over the video. It was a sub 200 camera. By no means a pro model.
post #350 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

&tstartIn one of his characteristically terse email replies, Apple chief executive Steve Jobs has reportedly told one Mac user that changes in video camera technology have reduced the need for FireWire on his company's 13-inch MacBooks.

The one-line response to a fan complaining over the lack of FireWire on the new entry level aluminum MacBooks is blunt but also points out that technology has changed since the company began including FireWire with Macs in 1999.

"Actually, all of the new HD camcorders of the past few years use USB 2," Jobs supposedly wrote in an email, a copy of which was posted to the popular Flickr image sharing website.

Jobs is likely not pleased about the*current state of FireWire himself. Apple invented the standard in the late 80s as a hot pluggable replacement for SCSI, with a special emphasis on supporting media streaming with*isochronous, real-time data transfers. The company then released the specification through a standards body to become IEEE 1394, where others including DEC, Texas Instruments, and Sony contributed to its*development*as well.*

Upon*returning*to the*beleaguered*Apple in 1997, Jobs hoped to earn*Apple some licensing royalties from the technology, which was quickly becoming an emerging standard not just to replace SCSI but also in video and music applications. Jobs' plan resulted in Intel offering to upgrade its USB standard to speeds approaching FireWire at a lower cost. The 'master to slave' USB 2.0 protocol was cheaper to implement than the 'smart peers' design of FireWire because USB required less intelligence in the controllers.

Somewhat ironically, Apple's 1998 iMac originated the push behind USB that allowed it to gain rapid adoption among consumers. USB 2.0 built upon that ubiquity to push into the peripheral*territory*that had been wholly owned by FireWire. In 2001, Apple's iPod began to popularize FireWire as an interface that was much faster for syncing the then*relatively*large MP3 files compared to existing players that used USB 1.0. However, by 2003, Apple started adding USB 2.0 support to target PC buyers, where FireWire ports were rare. By the end of 2005, Apple had removed FireWire sync from the iPod line as a cost savings measure.

While USB 2.0 ate into the casual peripheral market for consumer hard drives and web cams, FireWire retracted to support applications where USB 2.0 wasn't suitable. It retains clear advantages over USB 2.0 among higher performance hard drives, but in that market, FireWire is now competing against eSATA, which developed from ATA cabling. Historically, FireWire has been the way to import video from digital cameras, but as Jobs' purported email announced that is no longer always the case.

A glance at the product pages for Canon, Hitachi, JVC, Samsung and Sony as well as Amazon's top camcorder list indicates that virtually all new compact consumer HD cameras now use USB 2.0*to transferring footage directly to a computer instead of the FireWire. Some camcorders also offer the option of burning directly to DVD and a few*can transfer video over a USB-to-FireWire bridge cable.

A purported email reply from Apple chief executive Steve Jobs.

That reality is little comfort to those who fall outside of Apple's market for the new entry-level portables, many of whom are vocal in their opinions in Apple's support discussions as well as AppleInsider's own forums.

Support for older cameras, many of which (particularly DV tape models) depend on FireWire, is ruled out by Apple's aluminum MacBook update; so too are prosumer cameras such as Sony's HDR-FX1000, which needs the faster throughput of FireWire (called i.LINK by Sony) to deliver raw content if a card reader isn't used. To serious amateurs or professionals who prefer a smaller system, the loss of FireWire on the new entry level MacBooks is a vexing problem.*

"I am a video producer and use my MacBook on site to ingest footage taken from FireWire cameras, even occasionally hooking the camera right up to the MacBook," says one Mac user with the previous generation system. *"Well, it looks like there isn't a FireWire port on it anymore... how the heck am I supposed to do that? I am sure I am not the only one with this concern."

Professional musicians also use FireWire in recording equipment.*Others have noted that the lack of FireWire additionally rules out Target Disk Mode for managing files or cloning systems, as USB 2.0's architecture lacks the capacity to support that feature. Apple's Migration Assistant software now alternatively supports importing files from another machine over Ethernet, from USB drives, or Time Machine backups, however.

Even so, many argue that Apple's move appears built to upsell any serious user to the MacBook Pro, which starts at $800 more than the entry level new MacBook, despite the fact that Apple*continues*to sell the previous-generation white MacBook, with FireWire intact, for $300 less than the new aluminum MacBooks.

There's no doubt that the removal of FireWire from the MacBook was as difficult of a decision for Apple as it is a mourned loss for many Mac users. With FireWire increasingly receding into the professional space, Apple had to weigh several variables, including the cost of incorporating another port to its entry level laptop that many of its new users wouldn't even recognize. After all, half of the buyers Apple is selling to in its retail stores are new to the Mac. Being able to offer them a lower price will likely help more than trying to sell them on the concept of Target Disk mode, which is entirely foreign to PC users.

The future of FireWire is still up in the air. Apple retained the FW800*version*(running at 800Mbps, twice the speed of the original specification) on the new MacBook Pro, providing substantially faster throughput than USB 2.0. On the MacBook, FW400 doesn't offer most users enough of an advantage over USB 2.0 to warrant taking up the limited space on the port panel and on the logic board.

"Many of us don't have great confidence that FireWire is here to stay on MacBook Pro, Mac Pro, or iMac, either," one forum user wrote.

With the advancement of USB 2.0 on the low end, erosion from eSATA among hard drives, and a migration away from FireWire even in its home field advantage among digital video users, Apple is probably wondering the same thing.

Update: Jobs continues serve at times as Apple's unofficial public relations department, and AppleInsider can now nod to the authenticity of the aforementioned email with a high degree of certainty. Since our publication of his original email Thursday, Jobs has since exchanged another pair of emails with David, both of which be seen here:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Steve Jobs
Date: Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: Firewire RIP?
To: Xxxxx

The new HD camcorders start around $500.*

Sent from my iPhone


On Oct 16, 2008, at 12:41 PM, Xxxxx wrote:

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the fast response! In answer to your statement, though, I decided to look at the selection of camcorders on BestBuy.com since I believe they represent a pretty average staple of what consumer electronics people are buying. Although you are correct that (almost) all of the new HD camcorders use USB 2.0, there are still many, many standard definition camcorders (read:*affordable*for average Joes) that require firewire. Does this mean to say that Apple no longer supports average Joes from making home movies on their computers? In other words, if I have a $300 firewire camcorder and a new MacBook, shouldn't I be able to edit videos of my kid's birthday just as easily as someone who has a MacBook Pro and a $1200 HD camcorder?

Sincerely,

-David

Guys,

Here's an update on the email conversation between Steveo and David.

Best,

Kasper
EIC- AppleInsider.com
Questions and comments to : kasper@appleinsider.com
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post #351 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosstheboss View Post

(and only TWO usb ports? are you joking?!... you're takin the piss big time.)

How in the world could that possibly surprise you? Apple has never used more two USB ports on their consumer and pro machines since it pioneered the use of USB on its PowerBook 3G "M5353" back in May 1999, expect for its 17" model which still has 3 USB ports.

Now, if you want to complain that you lost a port but didn't get an extra USB2.0 to replace it, I understand that argument, especially on the MBP.
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post #352 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by LE Studios View Post

Dude things changes! Remeber Apple Display Connector? ATA/66, ATA/100, SCSI, Ultra SCSI, DVI, HDMI, USB 1.0, Firewire 400? You got new standards coming in! USB 3.0 with speeds of 4.8 Gbit/s (600 MB/s)!

When USB 3.0 arrives, go ahead and drop FW400 - and provide at least a third party bridge. Until then, FW400 is superior to USB 2.0. It's pretty well proven/known that FW400 gets faster consistent throughput than USB 2.0, even though USB's spec is a little higher.

Also, there is no acceptable bridge solution. Many have pointed out some FW to USB converters and others have pointed out why those don't work. If there was a $50 converter of some sort I'd be a lot less unhappy.

Apple has always been thought of as for and marketed themselves to the "creative" crowd. Whether these be hobbyists or high-paid professionals. Lots of "creative" gear - DV cameras, audio interfaces, etc. - uses FW. Apple just spit on all the hobbyists, struggling artists, and shoe-string professionals - market segments they have traditionally embraced (see iLife).

- Jasen.
post #353 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksec View Post

Sorry i am totally lost........ Someone please explain to me.

The Macbook no longer has Firewire, and only Macbook Pro have Firewire,
Firewire has always been more expensive and more professional look to it.

So if you want professional port for professional job you want a professional macbook. The Macbook Pro.

So what is the big deal?

You can afford to buy Professional Expensive Camcorder, and not afford to buy a Macbook Pro?
It is not Apple completely drop Firewire from all range of their product.

If you want an Professional Mini Notebook then it is a different Story. But that is the problem apple doesn't have Mini Pro Notebook. Which is like they dont have xMac.

And i forgot to mention we have USB 3.0 coming in less then 12 months time.

Total misguided comment.

If you look at BestBuy, the camcorders with firewire on are mostly in the $200 to $300 range. These are not professional cameras.

Stating that USB3 is coming is a useless statement. So what if it is? Nothing uses it NOW. So, firewire may be on the way out being replaced by USB3, or heaven forbid FW3200, but neither of these exist now. What does exist is a legacy of millions of Firewire peripherals that still require Firewire NOW.

I have two firewire based camcorders, one approaching 9 years old and one 7 years old. Perhaps they are dinosaurs but they still produce excellent video and I have a archive of about 80 DV tapes that will always require a Firewire connection if I am to look at them again.

Flash based USB HD camcorders are all nice and may be the new thing, but you are kidding yourself if you think that people are going to run out an buy a new camcorder just because Jobs decided to drop FW. They won't.

I would have liked to consider upgrading my Macbook to the new one for the better display and graphics, but that decision was taken out of my hands. There is simply no way I can upgrade now, but I can not afford to lose my legacy of DV tape.
post #354 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody OnThe Nets View Post

Why are the people that DON'T use firewire annoyed with the people that obviously NEED FW ports on a Macbook? It's a simple complaint. They want a port that is on the previous model on the better new updated Macbook. Calling them whiney is not an answer for anything. It's a legitimate question that people want answered. People that say "just buy an adapter" have never sat and captured video all day to come back to dropped frames. It's not a fun thing to have to recapture everything and lose time.

I've been a Mac user all my life and never had any problems with Macs... NEVER. But this did leave a bad taste in my mouth and I can't believe Mac users are claiming other Mac users are "whiney people who don't know what they are talking about". What ever happened to Mac unity and understanding?

Because they are whiney. Most of them are people who make a life with this stuff (which should pay good or their selling themselves short) and are too bloody cheap to shell out a few hundred more dollars for a more capable Macbook Pro. There is only a small percentage with a valid gripe. But those with a valid gripe are just a victim of tehnology moving on.

And you as a long-time Mac user must have lived through the ADB to USB and SCSI to Firewire transition, so you must have encountered this before.

Technology moves on, standards change. Ce la Vie. That's just the way things go.
post #355 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zauner View Post

I don't like Steve Ballmer, but this time he was right - leaving out features like FW and Blue-Ray is simply a way to get a higher margins. And support mainly consists of "better buy a new machine". Thank you.

Maybe at Apple they got scared that every John Doe would soon own a Mac so they had to raise the "Apple Tax". Seems to be only the chosen few 5% of the worlds' notebook users should be intitled to own a Mac to keep it exclusive to users and not too tempting for developers of adware and viruses...

Dude, why would you listen to Microsoft when they support HD-DVD especially on their Xbox 360. They don't support Blu-Ray not like they did with HD-DVD they refuse to make an Blu-ray add on for the Xbox 360. They want to divide us because Apple actually more successful then Microsoft and best they can do copy what Apple did to try to be successful and so far it fails: Vista, Zune and Xbox 360 is good I support it but it hard when everybody get the Red Ring of Death (RROD) because Microsoft screwed up and used chipset that they designed to save millions that ended up costing Billions. Now when you get get RROD customer service finds mistakes and faults to keep them from exchanging their defective systems to save money. I'm hoping that Apple get into the video-game industry make a console then buy Electronic Arts then kick Microsoft out! I have put faith in Apple for over 20 years and they yet to let me down. Microsoft let me down every chance I give them!
post #356 of 1657
I don't believe I've ever bought a computer that wasn't a compromise of some sort. Missing ports, GPUs, size and space limitations - an endless list. You get what the company feels they can make the most money on, because that's the only reason they make computers in the first place, and it's a crowded and (obviously) vocal and opinionated market representing a lot of individual needs.

I haul my 2.33 GHz MBP around with me because it has all the ports I need. Because I consider myself to being using my computers professionally, I get professional equipment. The size, weight and lower cost of the MacBook are all desirable, but without ExpressCard and FireWire, it's not practical for my needs. If you're supporting multiple computers with TD mode, and have quite a number of FW devices, these are typically professional applications and a pro-model computer would be more advantageous, despite larger size, heavier weight, and higher cost.

I've used FW since Day 1 on the Blue G3s, and have a lot invested in it. I'll certainly miss it when they do away with it entirely, and have to spend more money, just like I did when they got rid of SCSI (although I don't miss those connectivity headaches!). But since I've already stopped using FW and moved on to tapeless video acquisition on my HDCAM EX (because I'm concerned that running tape over a camera head twice is destructive and time-wasting) and moved to SATA-based RAIDs instead of FW, I'll get over it or use workarounds. I admit having it is handy -- just last week I connected an old Canon GL2 to my laptop and recorded a video interview right to disk from the car seat, but I could still do that with a new Apple laptop, because FireWire is included on the one I'd buy.

Really... what else can we do? I agree petitioning Apple might bring it back, but I doubt it. 300+ posts is fairly insignificant to the MacBook buying market. Heck, Hillary Clinton had 18 million people wanting her elected, and she's not on any ticket this November.
post #357 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Fix View Post

If this wasn't a bad decision by Apple, there wouldn't be 300+ replies on this thread.

However, more than half, i.e., 160, of them were posted by 11 members, i.e., those who submitted 10 or more comments. Obvious it appears that most of the remaining authors posted at least twice or more.

I would also like to point out that most of the negs come from the same bunch of naysayers that appear virtually on every Apple/Mac story published on AppleInsider. Further examination shows that many don't have the Mac or Apple Product that they are complaining about.

It is too bad that we don't have at least one news site much like the iTunes store where you can only review/comment on things that you actually purchased/own.
post #358 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I used the word 'direct' for a reason. USB1.0, 2.0 and 3.0 will require no adapter. To the user it is seamless. If i want to use my FW400 device on a FW800 device I can certainly do that but I do that 9-pin-FW800-to-6-pin-FW400 or 9-pin-FW800-to-4-pin-FW400. In that sense, FW400 was designed for the death we are seeing.

I do hope that FW400/800 over Ethernet gets worked out so people can get their target mode over the ubiquitous Cat5 cable on an RJ-45 jack.

And I used the phrase "not that much different" for a reason as well... seeing as the needed FW cables can be had for ~$10.

It would be nice to have firewire over ethernet support in Mac OS X (seems to be implemented in some linuxes) ... then Apple could sell an ethernet to firewire adapter and keep everyone happy.

Edit: actually it's ethernet over firewire that Linux supports, not firewire over ethernet... in any case it would seem to be a win-win solution for Apple to support firewire over ethernet on the MacBooks.
post #359 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasenj1 View Post

When USB 3.0 arrives, go ahead and drop FW400 - and provide at least a third party bridge. Until then, FW400 is superior to USB 2.0. It's pretty well proven/known that FW400 gets faster consistent throughput than USB 2.0, even though USB's spec is a little higher.

But the difference isn't much. We're talking FW400 being removed in favour of 12Mbps USB 1.0. As for changing their design. Apple has made their design and has programmed and tested their CNC machines. They aren't going to be changing in up in a year to drop FW400 then. Even the previous model MBP got multi-gesture trackpad support on it's next revision after the MBA launch, but Apple didn't change the case design to accommodate the size of the trackpad to match the MBA, so they certainly aren't going to add complexity and cost for a Phelpsian difference in speed.

Quote:
Also, there is no acceptable bridge solution. Many have pointed out some FW to USB converters and others have pointed out why those don't work. If there was a $50 converter of some sort I'd be a lot less unhappy.

1) Keep current Mac.
2) Get new camera.
3) Buy the cheap MacBook for $999
4) Buy a MacBook Pro
5) Buy a non-Mac PC.

I've highlighted the 3rd one as it's the best solution for those who need a new Mac for whatever reason, but wish to remain frugal. That is $999 for a MacBook with FW400 and it comes with the elusive SuperDrive that was lacking on the low end.
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post #360 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by LE Studios View Post

First Apple I every program was Apple IIc it didn't have Firewire didn't miss it! I have a Mac Mini that I owned for 8 Months I never used Firewire since I got it. All my printers are networked by connected to a Netgear Wireless Print Server (replacing with a 1TB Time Capsule set to 802.11n ONLY so I have 802.11n on majority of my network) I have three HP Photosmart 8450 and just got the HP C7180 last month. I got a Apple Airport Extreme with 802.11n and Airport Express with 802.11n. I want to get two 1TB Time Capsules next month. I got the optical going to my Logitech Z-5500 and last I got two Seagate External Drives one 750GB and other 1TB plus I still have my 16GB iPhone connected to USB 2.0 port. I really don't use the Firewire!

Touche.

Too bad I have used FW ever since it's introduction to the Mac universe. In fact as we speak I'm uploading HDV footage. I just wish I could say the MB is a perfect machine, but it isn't. Just 1 port shy of perfection. 1 port! Hee hee. Oh well.

I'm using internal HDs on my Mac Pro for basic usage and photos. I use external FW800 HD drives for projects. I also do quite a bit of photography.

I just wish they kept the ports and kept the slim pickings on the MBA.

By the way, nice setup.

I support 1 port!!!
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