Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire - Page 10

Touche.

Too bad I have used FW ever since it's introduction to the Mac universe. In fact as we speak I'm uploading HDV footage. I just wish I could say the MB is a perfect machine, but it isn't. Just 1 port shy of perfection. 1 port! Hee hee. Oh well.

I'm using internal HDs on my Mac Pro for basic usage and photos. I use external FW800 HD drives for projects. I also do quite a bit of photography.

I just wish they kept the ports and kept the slim pickings on the MBA.

By the way, nice setup.

I support 1 port!!!

So let me get this right:
1.) You aleady own the new MacBook?
2.) You need to own a newMacBook to comment on a missing firewire port?

Hay bozo, its the cheap cameras that have firewire these days as they are using legacy technology.

All the "hip" (aka Apple like) real cameras now tend not to use Firewire. So if you use that logic, they should have left the firewire on their cheap Macbook, and taken it off the MBP after all, if you can afford a new HD camera that doesn't require FW, you can also afford the new MBP eh?

The simple truth is that there is a an established need for Firewire and it was a bad move my Apple to remove it without some other workable solution. If Apple had taken the firewire off the Macbook but had produce an adapter so that we could still use it over ethernet, they I would have been okay with that. Actually I would have been a little miffed because now I would need an adapter, but okay. Having absolutely no way to do firewire just pisses me off, and excludes me from ever being able to upgrade my current Macbook to the new one.

<delete me>

so will this "migration" software help not having FW, can you do TDM or backup using ethernet?? so when i get a new mac, how do i make that slick transfer to the new mac??

Don't forget flatbed scanners. I never had anything but slow performance from one that used USB, probably because they cheaped out and used USB 1.1 or something rather than USB2. FW400 was a Godsend to replace connecting scanners to any Mac with a SCSI cable.

So firewire is a Professional feature? Not likely. It's not desired by switchers because on their PCs they never had, thus, never understood the benefits of having it. You can't miss something you've never had, so I understand that angle, sort of....read on.

But this is my heartburn, this is similar to the Auto industry and the Wireless Telephone industry, you treat new and target customers so well, and spend so much money and effort getting customers that you lose site of the paying customers [and how important they are] that have gotten where you are. Auto makers will market the crap out of cars and sell for any price to get you, but rape you on maintenance with overpriced parts and unchecked labor rates. Cellphone companies put so much effort into the $1-new-cellphone-on-contract deal that when you need a replacement phone the only way is to renew for not 1, but 2 more years to get a RAZR for $100. [I am trying not to rant, but prove background and details to support my argument]

All that have posted are correct, Apple added USB support in ipods in 2003 to increase sales, fine, understood, I think that was smart. It broadened the appeal and marketability of the iPod.[Which created the Halo effect] However, to this day I never understood why they *removed* FW support. There are 30 'pins' in that connector, you're telling me 6 of them couldn't be retained to *benefit* those with Macs and make their experience better?? "Syncing your iDevice on a Mac will take ?% less time, a reason to get a mac"! Use it as a marketing tactic!


It blew me away how quickly I could sync my 3rd Gen iPod on my mac, very fast. Then my frustration when I so-called "upgraded" to a 5th Gen Video model, took forever to load it!

So back on point, New Alum Macbook with no FW.
I think the true reason is Apple trying to create a line in the new blurred portable product set, albeit how artificial it is. Firewire is important to the user *base* of Macintosh users. We are heavily invested from the technical, financially and even now emotion angles this presents. We have come to depend on the ease of TDM, true throughput and ubiquity of the connection across all Apple hardware. We are invested in the actual FW hardware we have purchased. from Ext HDDs, Optical drives, and A/V peripherals[cameras, Audio Controls, etc]. And our emotional tie being that we are upset that one of the backbone features of our beloved Macs is now gone on a product poised to be the "affordable Mac Portable".

So, I think Apple has made a huge mistake and hope that is it's remedied in future refreshes of the Macbook.
I was planning on buying a Macbook Alum for my wife and a MBP for myself. Now I think I may hold off and use my wallet as a tool of protest since both our machines work well and I was only upgrading for the "new factor".

We'll see. I hope Jobs and Ive are paying attention. Firewire may not be popular with Switchers because they don't know what it is, but unfortunately for Apple Switchers aren't the only ones buying macs.

Yes I have. And point well taken. I guess it's the ol' "just 1 more year Apple. Just give us 1 more year". Hee hee. But it's also the fact Apple has been used by many a number of video editors/students/pros/casual users, that this is quite a jolt. I mean it was a huge part of why a lot of film students used Apple. It was a solid relatively cheap way to start on the road to "Pro". I loooove the design of the new MB. But dammit, no FW really curbed my purchase. 1 port cost Apple $1599.99. It's as simple as that. I may buy a refurb Pro, but I'll just wait it out and see what Apple does. And no way in hell am I switching to the other side.

If this FW wasn't a problem this page would have been 2 pages long.... but it's still growing. I'm depressed about the loss of Matte, but this is a kick to the groin.

Low end user: No firewire use...

How do you dare filling this thread with noobies ideas...

switch on your wifi popcorn setup as you like

but let users relying on Firewire express their sour regrets......

give us a break ok?

But they are the ones buying new macs in the greatest numbers.

Existing Mac users upgrading a two-year-old MacBook Core Duo are the minority. Jobs and "Jony" know that the REAL pricing decisions are made by switchers, who, as you've said, don't give two flits about Firewire.
*To them, $50 might make or break a system.
*To them, sidemounted blinky-lights (worthless battery indicator) is more important than a foreign connector (firewore)
*To them, the choice to switch is an uphill one. All of their software has to be re-purchased for Mac

For existing mac users, the choice is less important.
*You have a platform with which you are (ostensibly) happy. Windows is foreign.
*You have lots of software running on MacOS, perhaps software for which there is no good Windows alternative.
*MAYBE, you have a firewire drive, camera, scanner, audio box, etc.

BUT, you are already a user. The general public (and MANY professionals inc. graphics and video guys) don't upgrade their machines every year. You have a system that works. Poor college students buy a machine when they start school, and MAYBE a new one if they go to grad school. Laptops aren't purchased anew each year.

All of the above "existing" users aren't in Apple's sights. We don't bring money in like the hordes of switchers.

Simply put, Apple is following the diminishing retail $$ and catering to users who are actually BUYING their products. Only problem is, those buyers aren't mac users.

ah... if you need firewire.. and its part of your profession, or even if it isn't but you take your work serious, then get the serious version of the laptop. get a macbook pro. it has firewire.

but all that aside, i do sympathize. i for one want am like you. i can't stand when apple assume that things have become old technology. i hope that we can all support each other in the push against apple doing these sort of things. and help us bring back firewire, and VGA output,... and scsi, and serial ports for printers, and floppies. i miss the 5.25 floppies. you know? sometimes i only need to save 516k of data /sarcasm

Several points that I think need to be made.

1) Several posters have said that Apple have done market research and decided that most users don't use FW. This MAY be true but Apple have NOT and do not do market research. See link here. Frankly I suspect the use of FW devices, among Mac users, is higher than we think here.

2) FW is dying but not dead yet. USB has definitely marginalized FW. There is no doubt to that. But there still are a lot of FW devices in use that are yet to be replaced by USB devices. When USB 3 comes out that could be the final nail in the coffin fro FW. But until then I don't understand why Apple don't include FW on this iteration of the MB and phase it out a year or two from now. I think that gas combustion engines are on the way out too, but I'm not for closing all gas stations...yet.

3) The MB, IMO, is designed to drive sales of other Apple gear. Need FW then get the pro. Only can afford a MB then look also at the Time Capsule and new ACDs. Two USB ports in this machine is going to woefully inadequate for most users. Especially if you have an iPhone and charge with your Mac. While this is a good business strategy for Apple, I think it shortchanges users in this case. The MB should be more capable and versatile than this IMO.

1. Nope. (Pro on order) Not complaining
2. Didn't comment one way or another

As I stated, "It is too bad that we don't have at least one news site much like the iTunes store where you can only review/comment on things that you actually purchased/own."

I was going to point out how irrational that is, but I doubt that any logical argument would be lost, so I'll just say, buy a $999 MacBook with FW400 is a single, longtime-coming obsolescing port standard is that important to you.


Any change Apple makes is a problem for someone. People complain that the ACDs don't have iSight cameras and mics. Apple adds a 24" model with such features but people complain that it is unneeded and just costs them more money for features they won't use. Apple adds adapters and remote controls with products but people complain that they are paying for items they don't need. Apple makes these Ã* la carte for the few that need it but they complain that its not needed.

The only real change Apple has done that had any real affect on usability and the pocketbook is the switch from PCMCIA to EC/34, which was so new that there was option for moving from the older standard to the newer one. FW400 has been cleaning out its desk, saying its goodbyes and walking out the door for years now.

Throw a going away party, have a wake, start a support group or write a NewYorker cartoon with the "I'm a Mac" guy hanging himself a FW400 cable (or would it make more sense to use USB2.0?). Regardless, we need to adapt because FW400 capable of adapting.

The problem is, that some of us already own a "serious" machine at home. I own a Mac Pro, but would have bought the MB in a heartbeat for field usage. It's a simple need. I don't need MBP cause I can't do seious work with Glossy screens. I just want to capture and do quick rough cuts on a 13 inch machine. My God my mouth just drooled at the thought. But alas, it is not the case.

No one needs VGA because of the Display port adapters... what to do with FW users? USB to FW? Sorry it's not that simple.

Apple makes no sale.


Apple makes no sale.


With far inferior graphics? Less solid construction?
The new MacBooks are superior to the old in every way other than the loss of FW. I expect Apple will sell a lot of older MacBooks to those who really value FW - and the used market should be bustling with people who don't need FW selling to those who do.


$700 is a big chunk of change to a lot of people. That money could be used to buy other gear, upgrade software, pay rent, etc.


Apple makes no sale. And may lose future sales.

I'm sure folks are right that there are solid engineering and marketing reasons for dropping FW. But it is sad. As I said, FW is valuable to an audience who has long been considered Apple's core market demographic. Apple just distanced itself from them a little bit.

- Jasen.

What is wrong with you people? Why would I backstep? I love the current design except for the loss of FW. It's that simple.

With them changing the video output and etc with this new manufacturing process, do you think that they were just pressing and trying to hard with this new process and decided to drop the FW port?

Why would they keep it for the MBPs and the plastic MBs?

That's nice, but without Firewire the new Macbook is as useful to me as, well a brick!

And that sounds like you're complaining on the complaints people are making.

They're useful if you want to add more ports, TV tuners, additional sound or network cards.

There are a lot faster than PC Cards, and I also have 4-pin FW 400 and a card reader on my laptop (the card reader I use all the time, as it saves me having to plug my camera into my laptop with a USB cable, and saves battery life).

But according to Apple, those are features a $1300 laptop just does not need. I'm sure there would've been room to cram even a 4-pin FW 400 port in the new MB. But you can get a backlit KB for $1600. Ohhh.

Maybe FW is just a 'pro' feature, but it's just hilarious, when sub $1000 PC laptops can come with more ports, but with Apple, you have to pony up 2 grand for the similar ports. I'm also surprised the MBP only has 2 USB ports at that.

While right for the MBP, you are totally wrong about the MB. The MB simply does not have firewire anymore. Period.

To upsell buyers to the MBP and to clear out inventory.

I doubt the plastic MB will be around at this time next year. It may be gone by MW in January.

Right!

Like more than not, the biggest whiners continually whine. In every story. Every day. Never a constructive criticism. Just threats.

Saying, implying, even complaining that Apple made a mistake in one's opinion is one thing, threatening or projecting dire consequences is another.

Yet they took it out. That pretty much tells you how many of their consumer customers require FW and can't possibly use anything else. Be assured that they did plenty of studies to find out the saturation and usage of FW on MacBooks.


Those MacBooks were perfectly fine last Monday. They also have all the kinks worked out. Keeping a dead-end port tech for a minority of users within a minority of users who can't adapt isn't going affect Apple's bottom line.


Then don't buy a MBP. Who is forcing you to have what you deem "the best" instead of using what works.


Again, if this was a worthwhile market segment don't you think Apple would have included FW400. There will always be people that hate how Apple forcing them to adapt. Why not learn to adapt yourself instead of being miserable when the world around you changes.


Engineering wise, it's a dead-end tech. Within a year we should get USB3.0 with no change to the port plugs and will pobably be added within a year. FW400 was dying and we watching it struggle to breath for years now, but we're mad that Apple has finally started to put it out its misery.

Consider the first 15" MBP that came out. It only had a SL-DVD burner, while the 15" PowerBook that came before had a DL-burner. A step backwards that was much more extreme than the slight difference in FW400 and USB2.0. But what were Apple's choices? To not update the dying G4 PB platform until a DL 9.5mm drive was able to burn DL-DVD, redesign the MBP thicker by using the 12.7mm drives, or just ket the technology catch up in a revision or two? The answer defines how Apple functions as a company and how they look toward the future. These are the machines for the next 3-4 years so they have to think that far ahead.

Take a close look at the logic board and tell me where you could add this famous port.

NO, NO, NO.

Please quit spreading this myth.

As said, you do not get it. Google for more information and the essential tool named Target Disk Mode to repair CURRENT Macs. If after that you still do not get it, better give up.

If Apple had taken out FW and replaced it with USB3 to help future proof them, or included an Express Card slot also allowing Firewire 400/800/3200 or USB3 then this wouldn't be as big of an issue.

For all you people saying firewire is dead, where is your proof? I just bought two external FW800 1.5GB drives that are brilliant. No USB2 drive even comes close to the speed of these drives. Not to mention the ability to daisy chain.

Yes, firewire 400 is slowly dying, but so will USB2 when USB3 comes out. But that's Okay since all of our old Firewire 400 and USB 1 and 2 devices are backward compatible with their replacements. Problem is that Firewire 800/3200 and USB3 are not possible with the new Macbook since there is no way to add these. I think the real question is why in the hell does Apple choose to not include an Express Card slot on a $1600 laptop when even PC laptops costing $399 include one? They could easily find room, in fact how about next to the optical drive? Seems to be plenty of space there.

The reason we are so vocal in complaining is that unlike the Windows world, we only can choose from one vendor. We don't have the luxury of buying affordable 15" or 17" laptops for $400 to $800. Nor do we have the option to buy a 10" or 13" fully featured model with many ports. In case you haven't noticed, the pickings are pretty damn slim for Apple models.

I can't find the link to the article, but a journalist was asking Shiller about what types of market and customer research they do, and Shiller replied "Oh, we don't do any research, we focus on building great computers" So for all you pretending that Apple "studied" this issue carefully, you are simply in the RDF. This was simply a greedy and boneheaded decision that they hopefully will come to regret. You can only swing the form over function pendulum so far before the user base starts to fight back.

Yeah right - more like they did a cost benefit analysis to determine that it should be omitted.

Seagate maybe just a tiny bit louder than the quietest of the pack. But they are pretty quiet.

Using an Ars forum post as 'proof' is as valid as writing a Wikipedia page about yourself and using that as proof you are popular.

What rationale do you have that a multi-billion dollar, highly profitable company does no market research when designing new products? Does Apple really seem like a willy-nilly company to you?

First, all intel is suppling this time around is the CPU, the chipset is from NVIDIA. Intel's M45 chipset has firewire support in chipset.

Second, I would assume the lack of firewire is more based on Ive's decision to make them smaller and put all the ports on one side.. Wasn't enough room for the firewire port.

Apple doesn't do entry level anymore. The Macbook this time around is essentially a 13" Macbook Pro.

Apple can easily solve this crisis by producing a 13-inch MacBook Pro. Include FW800 (backwards compatible with FW400) and an ExpressCardslot. Make it 100 dollars more expensive. It will be an awesome machine and will attract a loyal following. I know, I still own a 12-inch Powerbook G4.

I just upgraded to an new old model 15-inch MacBook pro due to the glossy screen issue ...

To the people who are saying that all pro's should just buy the 15-inch: some pro's do need portability. Think of a traveling videoartist or audio-pro. A 13-inch notebook fits in a bag a whole lot smaller than a 15-inch would. And no, not everybody travels around by car. In some countries public transport is quite good.

???Your qustioning his post while you make ridiculous statements like the following without proof:


How do you know is wasn't based on a cost benefit analysis ?

For starters, USB 3.0 isn't ready yet. Neither is FW3200. The same way Apple used SL-DVD drives when Dl wasn't ready, using EC/34 when the cards weren't ready, and took out RJ-11 before some customers were ready.

It's the FW400 port standard that is dying, not FW. The proof is the complete lack of support from Apple and the final last move to remove it completely from their Macs after a slow, painful death.

As for USB 2.0 dying when USB3.0 comes out, the argument isn't the same since USB3.0 uses the exact same port as USB2.0. Same goes with FW800/3200. So why can't USB3.0 be added to a future MacBook?

i find it rather strange how those people who keep saying that they're happy with the new macbooks
keep hanging around here calling the rest of us whiners...

you'd think they'd be out there using them with their fancy USB ports to surf the net
or pose in starbucks or whatever else they do with their new oversized netbook, err macbook \

either way i have a number of friends who were looking to upgrade (and buy first time in my brother's case) and won't be until we see what comes out in jan...

i guess i'm just another whiner who finds that the 15" macbook pro too big for my needs
which are mostly defined by on-the-go audio connectivity and form factor since I have Mac Pro at home

...and doesn't find that paying a whole lot more for something (MBP) that has less connectivity and actually weighs more than the previous model constitutes advancement...

either way please don't forget to go to:

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html

http://www.petitiononline.com/MB1394/petition.html


PS can any musicians out there name a good audio interface which actually uses FW800 ? Most are still on FW400 so I find removal of this port from the Pro a little premature... and no I don't like carrying adapters and yes I think one less FW port is a downgrade because FW hubs suck (and cause all sorts of audio problems).

Unless I am missing something, FW800 was always limited to the MacBook Pro machines. The new MacBook Pros still have FW800. Hence, there is no problem for you to switch from your existing MacBook Pro to a new one.