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Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire - Page 2

post #41 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macrooster View Post

But I guess Steve knows what he is talking about and doing.

Nope. Steve has gone senile.
post #42 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I've captured 50Mbps DVC-Pro HD across USB. It does work.

From a camera (which camera) or just transferring data off memory (P2 or similar) - the latter is not capturing? I highly doubt that. I get occasional audio sync errors capturing DVCPRO HD even using FW400... (but I am talking 1080p here)... Only when using a FW800 disk on a second bus it does work at all.
post #43 of 1657
Removing FireWire gives consumers and manufacturers even less incentive to use it. Humorously enough, FireWire is still on the plastic MacBook. So it is on the lowest priced machine, but not on the "new" entry level machine.

I think it is a mistake, but not one that will really hurt Apple in the long run.

- Jasen.
post #44 of 1657
Steve may be right that most recent HD camcorders are USB 2.0, but:
1. Do most people have HD camcorders? I don't. I have a SD panasonic camcorder...
2. Does this really change the price of the computer that much? Really, would this have cost them more than a couple bucks to add?
3. Is Firewire Obsolete? I dont think so...
post #45 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post

From a camera (which camera) or just transferring data off memory (P2 or similar) - the latter is not capturing? I highly doubt that. I get occasional audio sync errors capturing DVCPRO HD even using FW400... (but I am talking 1080p here)... Only when using a FW800 disk on a second bus it does work at all.

From P2. You are right its not capturing in the same sense as real time video tape. But the industry is moving toward solid state storage anyway.
post #46 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by OriginalMacRat View Post

Steve Jobs has finally lost it. (Well, actually he's been a bit loopy for the past year.)

Time for him to go.

Dude, you lost it time for you to go!

#1, Apple made a good point on the decision that I support! I'm using the Mac Mini now and I have never used the Firewire since I bought it. I support the decision.

#2, If you was truly serious with audio and or video editing then buy a MacBook Pro if you can't then finance it and if you can't do that then save your money.

#3, If you can't respect Apple's decision then you can go to Windows!
post #47 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by corinhorn View Post

All that I know for sure is I will not spend one bloody dime on an Apple notebook until FireWire is back on the MacBook. I'm not going to spend an extra $500 to get the MacBook Pro.

I've been a Mac user for 10 years, and for the first time ever I am considering buying a Dell.

Your response I feel, is perfectly understandable.
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post #48 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

It retains clear advantages over USB 2.0 among higher performance hard drives, but in that market, FireWire is now competing against eSATA, which developed from ATA cabling.

eSATA does not compete with Firewire on Macs for most people. It is not hot pluggable on Macs or on the vast majority of PCs without a lot of effort. You have to restart your computer to mount an eSATA drive. Wow that is so convenient. I also find the eSATA connectors to be very flimsy. Firewire connectors might not be perfect, but they are better than eSATA.

We use Firewire every dang day where I work and it is faster than USB. eSATA is fast but a pain to deal with. Firewire wins. And Target Mode rules.
post #49 of 1657
Come one folks

A USB only laptop for $1300? Half the keynote was about the manufacturing process. It used to be Mac users demanded a superior computing platform.

FW provides more device power
FW is bi-directional in reading and writing
FW protects streams better
FW is peer to peer
FW is faster

Yet we've become the same PC sheep that we once ridiculed.

We're not asking things of Apple.

Why can't we have a choice between Matte and Glossy?
Why can't we have ExpressCard slots in ALL portables?
Why can't we have docks?

Why does Apple think they know everything?
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post #50 of 1657
my 2 year old sony hdr-hc1 HDV cam is firewire only... so his steveness is not well informed....
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post #51 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Yet we've become the same PC sheep that we once ridiculed.

Exactly.

Why Apple would suddenly screw over everyone with devices (me included) that Apple themselves made mainstream on the Mac is beyond me. Apple deserves to be ridiculed for these kinds of decisions. There is no way I am going to buy anything from Apple until they change their mind over this idiotic decision.
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Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

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post #52 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

People keep thinking that Firewire is some one trick pony.


Video- Yes many of the "current" camcorders are moving to USB transfer. Who here can tell me exactly how the process of transporting clips into iMovie works? Is it even standardized?

AVCHD works fine in iMovie, FCE and FCS. The commands you use are slightly different in the FC programs. Yes, I've tried it using SD cards from my HF10 (AVCHD standard) on the latest versions all three programs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Case in point: try syncing a movie to your iPhone and be prepared for a long wait. The first time I did this I thought something must be wrong, but no.

The storage chips are probably the limiting factor here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by euler View Post

Steve may be right that most recent HD camcorders are USB 2.0, but:
1. Do most people have HD camcorders? I don't. I have a SD panasonic camcorder...
2. Does this really change the price of the computer that much? Really, would this have cost them more than a couple bucks to add?
3. Is Firewire Obsolete? I dont think so...

It's not necessarily about the cost, but of the supposed compromises with respect to the space it takes on the edge, there's only so much space there. I think it also requires a PHY chip of some sort that needs to be accommodated. those circuit boards are packed pretty tightly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WelshDog View Post

eSATA does not compete with Firewire on Macs for most people. It is not hot pluggable on Macs or on the vast majority of PCs without a lot of effort. You have to restart your computer to mount an eSATA drive. Wow that is so convenient.

This is not true. I have a Firmtek eSATA card and eSATA 4 drive cage and it is hot-pluggable under OS X. It is a supported on the card, I've done it and it works fine. I think it's a limitation of whatever adapter card you're using. The ports inside a Mac Pro don't support hot plugging.
post #53 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by LE Studios View Post

If you can't respect Apple's decision then you can go to Windows

Apple is already going to Windows.
post #54 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by LE Studios View Post

Dude, you lost it time for you to go!

#1, Apple made a good point on the decision that I support! I'm using the Mac Mini now and I have never used the Firewire since I bought it. I support the decision.

#2, If you was truly serious with audio and or video editing then buy a MacBook Pro if you can't then finance it and if you can't do that then save your money.

#3, If you can't respect Apple's decision then you can go to Windows!

#4, If you have problems with any of the above then by default shut your hole!


1. Perhaps you were just unaware of the benefits of Firewire.
2. Correlating "serious" with spending more money is fallacious.
3. We know this
4. Wow. Gestapo style "if you don't like it shut up" nice.

You guys are acting as if it's just consumers who are jaded about Apple hardware (that isn't a phone or mp3 player). The Press is getting tired of Apple "special" events only to walk out bored. When they walk in and get the Jobs Spin they know they've been had.

These laptops are BORING
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post #55 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

Exactly.

Why Apple would suddenly screw over everyone with devices (me included) that Apple themselves made mainstream on the Mac is beyond me. Apple deserves to be ridiculed for these kinds of decisions. There is no way I am going to buy anything from Apple until they change their mind over this idiotic decision.

Yes. Apple's design choices have been a bit erratic lately.
post #56 of 1657
Steve is alive???
post #57 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by OriginalMacRat View Post

Apple is already going to Windows.

Who knew John C. Dvorak was posting here?!
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post #58 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Come one folks

A USB only laptop for $1300? Half the keynote was about the manufacturing process. It used to be Mac users demanded a superior computing platform.

FW provides more device power
FW is bi-directional in reading and writing
FW protects streams better
FW is peer to peer
FW is faster

Yet we've become the same PC sheep that we once ridiculed.

We're not asking things of Apple.

Why can't we have a choice between Matte and Glossy?
Why can't we have ExpressCard slots in ALL portables?
Why can't we have docks?

Why does Apple think they know everything?

You might well ask!
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post #59 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

Exactly.

Why Apple would suddenly screw over everyone with devices (me included) that Apple themselves made mainstream on the Mac is beyond me. Apple deserves to be ridiculed for these kinds of decisions. There is no way I am going to buy anything from Apple until they change their mind over this idiotic decision.


I did not know that Apple took away the FireWire port that used to be in your Macbook!!! They're really screwing over people, aren't they?


Oh, you're talking about a laptop you haven't bought yet? Then why not go to

http://store.apple.com/us/browse/hom...ls?mco=MTE3NzE

and pick up a Macbook with FW400 that was top of the line till 2 days ago? That should last you another couple of years before it's obsolete, by which time this will be a total non-issue. Unless, of course, your definition of "screwing over" people means "Apple won't give me what *I* want! It's all about ME ME ME!"
post #60 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

From P2. You are right its not capturing in the same sense as real time video tape. But the industry is moving toward solid state storage anyway.

I see. Well that is really just data transfer and it would even work via USB 1.1 because the speed is completely irrelevant for data integrity, with SD capturing realtime is mandatory.

Yes the industry is moving to solid storage (without solving the backup / storage problem at reasonable cost like tapes did), just it is not there yet. OS X / iMovie / FCE only support a handful of non-tape devices and not even all manufacturers do provide QT-plugins to make the conversion painless. P2 will most definitely remain out of the reach of most mere mortals for years to come and non-pros (the majority of MacBook customers) will not want to go through error-prone multi-step conversion routines (explain to the average Joe the Plumber how to convert anamorphic AVCHD from an unsupported camera to something iMovie can edit by making manually settings in ffmpeg... I do this frequently and have to look it up once in a while). I think Apple's move was premature and there is a big difference between premature and innovative. Look at Vista to see how people react to vanishing compatibility issues.
post #61 of 1657
My Canon HG10 transfers HD video via USB just fine.
post #62 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

This is not true. I have a Firmtek eSATA card and eSATA 4 drive cage and it is hot-pluggable under OS X. It is a supported on the card, I've done it and it works fine. I think it's a limitation of whatever adapter card you're using. The ports inside a Mac Pro don't support hot plugging.

You are correct, but I was speaking of using eSATA with a Mac without a host card or drive cage. You don't need any of that with Firewire so again eSATA loses. I tested eSATA on an old dual G5 using a port extender connected to the internal existing port. It works fine, but is a hassle. I don' think it's exactly fair to compare Firewire with eSATA when eSATA is not really supported directly by Macs. Not criticizing you, but rather the author of the article.
post #63 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

Why Apple would suddenly screw over everyone with devices (me included) that Apple themselves made mainstream on the Mac is beyond me.

Gotta love these hyperbolic statements! You make is sound like Apple has sent out a kill switch to our cuyrrent Mac's FW400 ports. If you need/want FW400 you can:
  1. Keep your current Mac just the way it is.
  2. Buy the low end MacBook ($999) for your next purchase.
  3. Buy a MacBook Pro for your next purchase.
  4. Buy a non-Mac PC that supports 4-pin FW400.
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post #64 of 1657
You seem to contradict yourself. First, you say most people wouldn't use Firewire. Then you talk about how great Target Disk mode is. I cannot tell you how many potential disasters I have averted by having that ability. If a friend's computer was having trouble, it was often Target Disk mode that saved the day. Moreover, I have older iPods and newer iPods. The old ones I still use and they have Firewire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolfactor View Post

Apple's thinking is and always will be slightly ahead of consumers' thinking. Sure, we hate to lose Firewire, a technology that has a cool name, great performance, and bragging rights, since Apple invented it. But if you stop and think about it... the MacBook (which no longer has Firewire) is targeted to a market that probably won't ever use Firewire. The vocal minority here are the ones that should be looking at a MacBook Pro anyway, which still has their beloved port.

(Firewire has saved my butt many times over with Target Disk Mode, but I understand that the landscape changes, and so will our products. Just look at the myriad of display/video ports we've gone through in the past few years).
post #65 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by rawhead View Post

I did not know that Apple took away the FireWire port that used to be in your Macbook!!! They're really screwing over people, aren't they?


Oh, you're talking about a laptop you haven't bought yet? Then why not go to

http://store.apple.com/us/browse/hom...ls?mco=MTE3NzE

and pick up a Macbook with FW400 that was top of the line till 2 days ago? That should last you another couple of years before it's obsolete, by which time this will be a total non-issue. Unless, of course, your definition of "screwing over" people means "Apple won't give me what *I* want! It's all about ME ME ME!"

You beat me to it.
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post #66 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by corinhorn View Post

All that I know for sure is I will not spend one bloody dime on an Apple notebook until FireWire is back on the MacBook. I'm not going to spend an extra $500 to get the MacBook Pro.

I've been a Mac user for 10 years, and for the first time ever I am considering buying a Dell.

I was a bit peeved on Tuesday with the lack of lowered prices that I expected with the new Mac Books and Mac Book Pros. So I started thinking (I'm about to get one): Is this really worth it?.

Well, almost on cue, an old friend and client called with problems in his Dell Inspiron with XP that he bought just a few months ago. So I go over to his office and end up spending five hours fighting with spyware, Windows Genuine Advantage not updating (and hence not being able to properly patch XP), a misconfigured video driver, and God knows what else. I left at 8 pm and the machine is only partly better.

You tend to forget about this kind of thing after a while. Vista is even worse.

You bet your behind I'm not going to buy a new Windows laptop. Apple would have to start making MacBooks out of cow dung before I would consider it. Bad enough that I need to run Fusion for some Windows apps, and I've already got a desktop PC I have to maintain.

Yeah, the FireWire thing is a drag. But I bet either Apple or some enterprising soul will do an Ethernet/Firewire adapter or something and that will be the end of that.
post #67 of 1657
but final cut and imovie dont support usb streaming last i checked. most cameras record to mpeg 2 and you cant just drag that raw file into either app without converting it to mpeg 4.
post #68 of 1657
In all honesty, it does not matter if firewire is a better standard. The fact is that USB is used much more often on a consumer level than firewire. This fact alone justifies the removal of firewire from a consumer level product.

(you may not choose see it this way, but that is because you actually use firewire.)
post #69 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

Nah, you are the one that is "plain wrong."

1) Apple has pushed FireWire constantly and persistently, and I don't think they can be blamed that no one else took it up.

2) Apple still supports FireWire on every single product it makes *except* the entry-level "cheap" (for Apple) MacBook.

3) You are not differentiating between consumer level cameras and Pro gear.

Bottom line is if you have a camera that only does FireWire, it's either old or "pro enough" that you should be comfortable affording the extra $700 bucks for the MacBook Pro.

The guy above that says he's a "video producer" but can only afford a MacBook and not a Pro? Give me a break. What a bunch of whiners.

1) I agree, but still no reason to leave unsupported people cause video cameras

2) every single refers to ALL, at the moment the new Macbooks lack of FW support so your point is TOTALLY wrong.

3) The canon HV20 is a consumer product, If you really don't know about Pro gear don't talk about it. Even HDV camcorder with a ticket price of 10K are Prosumers or Industrial products (Canon XL H1S / Sony HVRZ7U) Any professional/Production house will go straight to FULL HD.

4) Video Camera Firewire support is not the only use we give to that port. I personally has more than 10 external HD, 3 Prosumer Cameras and most importantly I give support thru that interface. Now I won't be able to service that machine the way I do with any other Mac cause it doesn't have the port. That translate instantly into triple to 5 times more work if I need to rely on a USB HD that wont give me 20% of the use I give a External Hard Drive for support use.

No wonder how will be others with lot more uses than the ones I give to that port.
post #70 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by corinhorn View Post

I've been a Mac user for 10 years, and for the first time ever I am considering buying a Dell.

Hey that's great news. Does that mean that when you get your Dell you will stop whining here? If so, do you need any help picking your Dell out? I'll do any research you need. Do you think you could buy one as soon as today and move over to DellInsider.com or DellRumors.com?
post #71 of 1657
OK, here's a challenge for you whiners. The Macbook, as Steve said, is the best selling Mac, like, ever. Go to a college campus and grab any one of the literally thousands of Macbook users you see, and ask them if they own a FireWire device, or even have ever used that port.

I will bet you dollars for donuts that the proportion of users who do/have is less than 10%, maybe less than 5%, or even less.

And then tell me it wasn't strategically sound for Apple to eliminate it from the new Macbooks.
post #72 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

These laptops are BORING

I think that you are being kind.

How much would it have cost to include Firewire 800 as they did in the Pro? The cost to the user is nearly $500, is that fair?

(Prepares to get flamed. \)
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post #73 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by rawhead View Post

OK, here's a challenge for you whiners. The Macbook, as Steve said, is the best selling Mac, like, ever. Go to a college campus and grab any one of the literally thousands of Macbook users you see, and ask them if they own a FireWire device, or even have ever used that port.

I will bet you dollars for donuts that the proportion of users who do/have is less than 10%, maybe less than 5%, or even less.

And then tell me it wasn't strategically sound for Apple to eliminate it from the new Macbooks.

That argument is a bit circular.

If Apple had left firewire in iPods what would that answer be?
post #74 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by IQatEdo View Post

How much would it have cost to include Firewire 800 as they did in the Pro? The cost to the user is nearly $500, is that fair?

It would cost a lot less than $500.
post #75 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post

1) I agree, but still no reason to leave unsupported people cause video cameras

2) every single refers to ALL, at the moment the new Macbooks lack of FW support so your point is TOTALLY wrong.

3) The canon HV20 is a consumer product, If you really don't know about Pro gear don't talk about it. Even HDV camcorder with a ticket price of 10K are Prosumers or Industrial products (Canon XL H1S / Sony HVRZ7U) Any professional/Production house will go straight to FULL HD.

4) Video Camera Firewire support is not the only use we give to that port. I personally has more than 10 external HD, 3 Prosumer Cameras and most importantly I give support thru that interface. Now I won't be able to service that machine the way I do with any other Mac cause it doesn't have the port. That translate instantly into triple to 5 times more work if I need to rely on a USB HD that wont give me 20% of the use I give a External Hard Drive for support use.

No wonder how will be others with lot more uses than the ones I give to that port.

1) No one is being left unsupported. There is a $999 MacBook with SuperDrive that has FW400 orand this is a tricky conceptuse your current machine.

2) Except is a preposition that specifies an exclusion in a category or group.

4) Again, keep the machine you have, buy the $300 cheaper MB, buy the $800 more expensive MBP (since you obviously out of the range of consumer that the MB was designed for), buy a Mac Pro so you can put in multiple PCIe FW cards, buy a fricken non-Mac PC.
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post #76 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

Nah, you are the one that is "plain wrong."

2) Apple still supports FireWire on every single product it makes *except* the entry-level "cheap" (for Apple) MacBook.

Products like the iPods, where they dropped Firewire for USB years ago??

Steve
post #77 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by rawhead View Post

OK, here's a challenge for you whiners. The Macbook, as Steve said, is the best selling Mac, like, ever. Go to a college campus and grab any one of the literally thousands of Macbook users you see, and ask them if they own a FireWire device, or even have ever used that port.

I will bet you dollars for donuts that the proportion of users who do/have is less than 10%, maybe less than 5%, or even less.

And then tell me it wasn't strategically sound for Apple to eliminate it from the new Macbooks.

To disagree with Apple on a design change and even to argue a case here is not whining. You on the other hand are.
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post #78 of 1657
This was a typical Prince McLean Apple shill article attempting to rationalize Apple's bad decisions. He is like an Apple version of Thurott, only worse. Here's what wrong-

He says there are numerous alternatives to Target Disk Mode- then neglects to mention they don't work if the Target computer isn't bootable, which is where TDM really comes in handy.

He talks about how FW isn't important in hard drives with the emergence of eSATA. Too bad not a single Mac includes eSATA ports.

Then he says it was because of a lack of space (total BS) and as a neccessary cost cutting measure. They raised the price $200 but can't afford the extra dollar or two it would add to their cost? Apple can surely make up for it with all the $30 Display Port adapters they're forcing people with external monitors to buy.

Others have detailed the "All new cameras have USB2" fallacy and not being a video guy I won't go over it myself. But being an audio guy I can say that audio interfaces and other audio gear overwhelming use FW exclusively especially the ones over $200. Now I can hear the response, "So get a MBP!" Now those with trust funds or those living in their parent's basements might not understand that $2000 for a computer is not a trivial expense even for people making decent money. Just because people are doing serious audio or video work doesn't mean they're raking in the big bucks, especially in today's economy.

In Apple's view, you're either Suzy Homemaker who uses a computer to check her Myspace page, build iTunes playlists, and transfer pics of her kids soccer games or you're an in demand professional with a personal assistant, a six figure budget and a view of the skyline from your office. There are TONS of us in between that.
post #79 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post

I see. Well that is really just data transfer and it would even work via USB 1.1 because the speed is completely irrelevant for data integrity, with SD capturing realtime is mandatory.

Yes the industry is moving to solid storage (without solving the backup / storage problem at reasonable cost like tapes did), just it is not there yet. OS X / iMovie / FCE only support a handful of non-tape devices and not even all manufacturers do provide QT-plugins to make the conversion painless. P2 will most definitely remain out of the reach of most mere mortals for years to come and non-pros (the majority of MacBook customers) will not want to go through error-prone multi-step conversion routines (explain to the average Joe the Plumber how to convert anamorphic AVCHD from an unsupported camera to something iMovie can edit by making manually settings in ffmpeg... I do this frequently and have to look it up once in a while). I think Apple's move was premature and there is a big difference between premature and innovative. Look at Vista to see how people react to vanishing compatibility issues.

I'm glad we are moving on from tape. Its a pain to wait for tape to digitize in real time. Dropped frames are not an issue in digital file transfer. You are right about the archiving dilemma though.

I'm not sure why you say its not their yet. Its here now. Most professional video operations are moving to Panasonic P2 or Sony XDCAM HD. Both formats are based on digital files.

I would suggest Joe Plumber do some research on which camera format is officially supported by iMovie and save himself some problems later down the line.
post #80 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by OriginalMacRat View Post

That argument is a bit circular.

If Apple had left firewire in iPods what would that answer be?


That argument is simply outdated. I was right there with people complaining about the disappearance of FireWire iPod models when that happened. But it happened BACK THEN. And when it did is when I, personally, and I must add, intelligently, foresaw this whole thing and I ceased to purchase FireWire devices. All my external device purchases since then have been USB2, even EXT. HDDs, even when I knew that I could get slightly better performance if I went FW. And that's why I'm not at all surprised by Apple's move, and, from a peripheral viewpoint, not hurting at all.
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