Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire - Page 12

Macworld:

"FireWires MacBook absenceinconvenience or fatal flaw?
In short, the new MacBook has a lot to offer buyersfaster graphics and video than before, an even stronger and more durable chassis, a backlit keyboard for high-end users, and many other enhancements. FireWires absence is certainly disappointing and will surely be felt for a while by Mac users who had invested in peripherals that use the interface, but I suspect most people will make the transition, and will ultimately find that theyre not missing much by making the switch."

http://www.macworld.com/article/1362..._firewire.html

That's not the issue. FW400 is largely obsolete, and many were expecting FW3200 to replace it quickly and with backward compatibility. Apple's removal of FW from its biggest seller has now damaged Firewire's standing in the market for almost anyone who uses it.


How has he saved us money if we have to go out and buy new cases?

I bought a USB 2.0 drive from Costco awhile back and the thing is incomparable to Firewire's performance.

With Time Machine being the best feature of the latest OS, MacBook users have seen their user experience downgraded for no good reason.

It's true that the refugees coming in from the Windows side won't care.
But these are former Windows users, so what do they know about good computing experiences anyway?

Then why is everyone crying about this?

Apple is the dear friend who steals your sandwich while you look at his pretty new computer.

At 99' comdex when we asked about Firewire showing up in the P4 board chip design or even PIII the answer was an emphatic NO. The reason we were told was 1) it's too expensive to license even for servers 2) Nobody in the PC world was using them 3) The PIII Non-Xeon's could not handle or keep up with the threshold of FW thus there was no reason 4) Other manufactures were building PCI based import cards (Now PCI was running at 33mhz and could NOT keep up with firewire 400 speeds). Intel was working on 2.0 USB as their answer to FW bus speeds.

USB is JUST a serial interface, FW is more than that.

The reason for the question was RAMBUS (now dead) and the P4's ability to process video at amazing rates (equaling a PowerPC chip). Lucas Films was one of the test studies/cases where the P4 would speed up graphic processing times and allowed for real-time video importing.... Hence the question about firewire.

Because people who think a cord with USB and Firewire on each end solves this problem don't understand the problem, or much of anything in general.

It has the best discrete graphics. To look at it glass half full, the new MB is on par with last years MBP.

Perhaps a USB 2.0 MacBook was some kind of a concession to Intel since they lost the graphics chip business.

Actually, it is all about ME!. Since myself and others are the ones who purchase these products. Sorry, but I can no longer abide by the decisions coming out of Cupertino. I have decided my next laptop will not be a Mac, it will be something else, and it will be running Linux. As for the rest of the ecosystem, I will not be buying an iPhone this month either. People (meaning consumers) need to hold these companies liable for all they do. As far as I am concerned, I will be using the iTunes front end through Cross Over, and from then on, not using it at all. I am extremely disappointed in this latest round of refreshes. Form over function indeed.

I agree.

I think the MB was designed to help sell other Apple peripherals like TC and the new ACD with the extra USB ports and charger.

'Cause you're not going to mistakenly buy any more FW400 devices going forward.

And hell some of you won't buy a new laptop now either. That's an even bigger savings.

Everyone bitching should take heed that the next-gen of interfaces are coming very soon anyway. And they should put off buying any device with a FW400 port or USB2 port if they can help it.

Apple is being very stubborn and STUPID with this decision. In any consumers eyes it is always better to have MORE interface not LESS. The removal of FW doesn't make anything easier (something I thought apple was all about), it only makes it more difficult for EVERYONE. For those who have never used, and may not ever use firewire....you don't know what you're missing!
I am a musician hence I don't need dedicated graphics cards in my laptops (main difference between MB and MBP). #1. Why would I pony up the money for a "Pro" class machine when it won't be any faster than the "Consumer" class machine, for the work I do? #2 Pro Tools is MUCH happier to use a FW drive than a USB drive. #3 You cannot STREAM uncompressed content from most "Comsumer" class cameras. #4 You have little support for Deck Control via. USB #5 I'll pay $5 more for a laptop if that's how much it cost to implement it!

Apple doesn't get it! I love APPL to death. I think they are the Sony of the 80's, but in todays standard. Currently they are making HUGE mistakes with their Mac platform. They have forgotten where they came from and who helped them get to where they are today. They are becoming the Chevy of the industry...used to embody soul and spirit and now it's just another box. Pretty lame box at that. Considering most of us Mac people are smart enough to know that the best games are played on consoles, and we don't need faster graphics for most of what we do, I would recommend not buying ANY new Mac. Let them know how you feel. I won't upgrade from a MB to a MBP just for FW and you shouldn't have to either.

Looks like this thread has become the new "DVD vs. Blu-Ray"....

How do you figure that? No Express card slot, no firewire, no discrete graphics card means it is not the same at all. At least with that MBP you will be able to use USB3 and FW 3200 when they are available. The Macbook is more similar to the very first iMac that came out with only USB 1. It was obsolete as soon as you bought it.


Why does Apple use screen size as a determining factor for pro models anyway? Some of the cheapest laptops you can buy are 15" and 17" inch. If Apple really wants to quiet this discontent they will give us some smaller Macbook Pro's and some larger Macbooks.

Because they like to.

Just talked to Belkin.

Their Hi-Speed USB 2.0 and FireWire 6-Port Hub works the new Macbook!

http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProdu...duct_Id=199941

My apology. It is just a hub.

Ironic that the picture MTOU uses is of the firewire version.

You need an encoding chip somewhere to write the file. You do get drives like the Firestore and Quickstream that capture to a drive but the kicker is they're firewire-only too.


I was one of a few who suggested firewire instead of ethernet. Ethernet is most often used for network traffic and that's typically much lower bandwidth than firewire devices. Remember, this is a consumer device and consumers are far less likely to have gigabit network switches in their house than firewire devices.

The only downside would have been that ethernet would top out at half its maximum speed but 60MB/s theoretical max is still 3 times higher than the built-in laptop's 20MB/s average so a slower ethernet doesn't make one bit of difference.

Not to mention, a few people use wifi now as it is.

So, keeping ethernet means you can't use the thousands of firewire products out there and most camcorders.
Keeping firewire, the worst that would have happened is that ethernet transfers would top out at 60MB/s but a laptop drive only handles 20MB/s anyway so there's no issue doing this.

Conclusion: either Apple picked the wrong port to go with through not thinking it through properly or they deliberately left it out to force people to buy the MBP.


If there was still a firewire port, you could edit on both equally well. Both screens are really too small so you'd use an external interface. The MBP offers nothing now except firewire. You'd be better off with the MBP as you get the option for faster drives too now so it's better to get a MB and bump up the drive spec vs getting a base MBP.


The firewire -> USB solutions are not Mac compatible and they aren't as good as direct firewire. It should just take a driver and someone (Belkin?) is bound to capitalize on it ripping people off more.

No it isn't.

Yes it, is That cable is connected to the FW800. And its the ultra-like Mk3 as well.

Performance wise its on par. New discrete cards have the same or better performance that last years dedicated.

Originally Posted by awmawm
Unless I am missing something, FW800 was always limited to the MacBook Pro machines. The new MacBook Pros still have FW800. Hence, there is no problem for you to switch from your existing MacBook Pro to a new one.


Yes, it is the issue and you took my response out of context. I replied to a post where the poster was telling us that he/she uses FW800, yet is disappointed by the disappearance of of the FW port in the new MacBook. If he has been using FW800 on a MacBook so far, he had to have a MacBook Pro; hence, if he wants/needs to upgrade, it is only reasonable to expect that he sticks with the "Pro" line.

Because this thing sucks, look, I have more invested in FireWire peripherals than I have invested in computers, these peripherals don't really go obsolete. And it isn't like USB 2.0 really performs as well as FireWire (especially in hard disks)

How nice of you to speak for all other posters. Seeing as how you must know how many of them there are and their actual needs.

This is interesting but the specks look like it is a simple 2 port FW hub and a 4 port USB hub meaning that you still need a USB and FW connection to your computer.

Did you actually verify with Belkin that the hub will cross connect FW and USB so that only a USB cable needs to be used with the MB?

Except Apple's primary focus in marketing is the consumer, that needs easy of use and plug and play. The typical consumer that bought into that marketing is more than likely the one that will be burned by decisions like this. Like all those poor souls, me included, that have a modestly expensive digital camcorder that uses FW only for movies.

There is no way to spin this by Apple, all over what couldn't save that much in cost. What did Apple save $10 ... $20 if that.

That said, will I abandon buying Apple computers, no. I'll continue buying Apple, but how many others will, I don't know.

Last night I tried this very experiment. I use a Macally USB/FW/eSATA external enclosure that I always use with a FW cable.

Well I connected the unit to my MB using only the USB cable. I connected my camcorder to one of the two FW ports on the external enclosure to see if the MB would recognize it. Fired up iMovie and tried to capture.

Didn't work . The MB did not even recognize the camera, so the external enclosure does not connect FW through to USB. Now I think that the Macally can only use one type of port at a type and it switches the other off, so that is probably why it did not work. I suspect that most other USB/FW enclosures are the same, but please test away. Perhaps someone will find one that works.....

No I am not joking. In fact, I would even go so far to say that Ethernet is more a business need at this point, not a consumer need. The majority of schools and homes are wireless now a days, not wired.

Your Apple center needs to implement a wireless network already. Wired notebooks? What is this? The 90's.

Yeah but after looking at AI's recent article I think that nVidia bungled the FW support in their chipset. I noticed there's no Macbook Pro diagram showing how Apple has gained the FW support. If they had to go through some extreme lengths to add FW then I could see why they didn't do that on the Macbook. The only hope would be that Apple would convince nVidia to add FW to their chipset in a future revision if they want to be considered for future opportunities.



Paging Marzetta7....paging Marzetta7


Hell I tell you my complaining would be less if Apple had delivered a 13" Macbook Pro.

?? Yes- 4 over 10 years. But nowadays Apple is not delivering on what many of us want so for the first time I am questioning if I buy elsewhere for a laptop. I would never though switch my desktop - never.
Unless, of course, Apple licenses out the OS.

I don'tthinnk that's what he was suggesting you do. I think he was suggesting that the camera could transfer the data from the camera to the HD over the firewire interface, AND THEN you'd disconnect the HD with the movie data on it and hook it up to the Macbook by USB 2.0. Then you would import it from the HD to iMovie.

I don't think the camera has the capabilities to export the data.

But I think that alot things said in this thread may give rise to some sort of device to handle the no-Firewire on Macbook problem. Maybe something like the Belkin device, but that actually connects the firewire and USB 2.0 ports to only USB 2.0. I believe the Belkin device just extends the number of USB 2.0 and Firewire ports from existing USB 2.0 and Firewire ports. I think it requires a USB 2.0 and Firewire connection from the computer.

BUT, who really has a problem here? What you currently have works, right? It's only if you want to buy a new Macbook that you have a problem? RIGHT? Unless you currently sold your rig, which you shouldn't have until you saw the hew stuff. If you want to buy new MB and have a firewire port, wait for the third-party fix.

Apple is usually the first to roll the dice and phase out dying technologies. This Firewire drama is similar to when Apple got major flame for removed the floppy disk.

Let's face it. Firewire is a dying technology. Like it or not, it will go away one day like the floppy, Serial COM ports, LPT ports, VGA, etc...

Looks like various flavors of USB will be the norm. It sucks that people have invested serious $$ into camcorders, storage, etc. but what is a company to do? One of the nice things about OSX compared to Windows is that they don't include legacy software in the OS which would eventually bloat it to a Windows-level install. I admire them for taking that step to succumb to the reality that Firewire won't be around that much longer.

That's the computer industry for you. The Macbook Pro still supports Firewire and if that price-point is too high, then it's unfortunate.

If this causes you to lose faith and go with a non-apple machine, then you go right ahead. It will be a more expensive proposition in the long run dealing with Microsoft drama than to just go and buy a Firewire/USB cable.

I know more people hopping on the Apple wagon than the other direction. You folks are just the vocal minority.

I disagree. First you don't need a Gigabit switch to hook 2 computers together to transfer files and wifi is damn slow for transferring lage volumes of data, I'd rathers stick an ethernet cable between the two computers and get it done fast.

As well ethernet is a standard port that has much more popularity.

Good catch. The picture posted earlier refers to MOTU's FireWire 400 Audio Interfaces with the accompanying text.

From the MOTU Macbook Page:

New MacBooks energize your MOTU studio

Across the board, Apple's new MacBook and MacBook Pro mean faster processing, increased storage and greater portability than ever for your MOTU studio. All current shipping versions of MOTU software sparkle on the new ultra-thin 13.3-inch and 15-inch LCD screens, with blazing new speed and CPU efficiency. Plug in your MOTU FireWire or USB2 audio interface, or your MOTU MIDI interface, and go. A new era in sleek, stylish mobile studio recording has arrived, and your MOTU software and hardware products are ready today. USB2 connectivity with the new 13-inch MacBook is just the beginning.

FireWire 400
All MOTU FireWire audio interfaces are fully compatible with the new FireWire-equipped MacBook Pro. All you need is a standard FireWire 400-to-800 cable. Just plug in and go. The FireWire bus operates at 400 Mb/sec, providing the same high speed, low latency and rock solid reliability that MOTU FireWire interfaces are known for.

Subsequently, MOTU's 828mkII USB2 follows:

UltraFast USB2
The affordable 13-inch MacBook provides USB2 connectivity for audio I/O, and the MOTU 828mkII USB2 audio interface is the perfect professional audio I/O solution for this new generation of MacBooks. With plug-and-play connectivity via ultrafast USB 2.0, you take full advantage of USB 2.0's 480 Mb/sec bus speed, which is even higher than FireWire 400. and a photo below it.

http://www.motu.com/newsitems/new-ma...ur-motu-studio

I asked again and got a different answer. It is just a hub

I would rather just use a USB stick.

Oops, did I mention USB? I wonder why where wasn't any Firewire stick......

Yeah that is the case.


This wouldn't work because there is nothing controlling the data stream.

You had:

camera <---FW--->drive<---USB--->computer

The drive doesn't know what to do with the incoming data from the camera - under no circumstances would it push it back out the USB port. Even if it did, movie capture software looks for incoming data over the firewire protocol, not USB.

I mentioned it in another thread but there is a very simple and cheap solution. Buy a $50 PC tower with gigabit ethernet and a firewire card - buy the cards as needed. Capture the data on firewire and transfer to the Mac over ethernet. This will likely cost less than buying an adaptor. Capturing is donkey work anyway, you may as well let a PC do it.

Yes it means you have to resort to Windows or Linux to get the job done but Apple have made their decision, there's very little we can do.


Sure but what I was saying about the transfer rate still applies. An internal laptop drive can only write at 20MB/s so you can't transfer data any faster than that anyway. USB2-ethernet still gives you 60MB/sec max. Gigabit ethernet allows you to transfer at 125MB/s but you'd only benefit from that speed if you had an internal SSD and were writing to an external RAID system or between 2 laptops with SSD where you'd see rates of 80-90MB/s. This is a very rare occurrence.

You can also transfer files via FW800, which is 80% of the speed of Gig-E - in real world terms they are around the same transfer rate.

When I heard that the new MacBooks did not come with FireWire I was rather unhappy. So I went to the MacBook feedback page and sent some feedback on my opinion on FireWire. At this point I went from unhappy to downright mad because when I sent my feedback it asked for my name and I stupidly used my real name. Today I tried logging into my apple ADC account and it appears that my account has been disabled and the only reason I can think of is because I sent negative feedback about the lack of FireWire in the new MacBooks.

Has this happened to anyone else?

jesus christ you fricken whiners. just buy a macbook pro if you're so deeply concerned with having firewire

Nothing but pure class in this post! Welcome to AI lol.