Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire - Page 13

It would have been nice for Apple to add eSATA to the MacBook and MBP as a replacement for/complement to FW, since we won't get USB 3 until late next year and USB 2 is just too slow for many applications. The nVidia chipset offers six SATA channels in total, so there should be four spare channels for eSATA. SATA and all SATA devices are designed to be hot-pluggable; eSATA is just an alternative connector design, therefore no additional chips are needed to support this. In addition, Apple could license the combined USB/eSATA connector design from MSI, which basically means eSATA support will NOT require any extra space. Finally, eSATA can easily support target disk mode, Apple just needs to add some code in the firmware to turn the computer into a large SATA drive enclosure. In fact, Apple had already filed a patent for this very idea: http://arstechnica.com/journals/appl...mode-for-esata, so I am guessing eSATA support is definitely being looked at.

I actually forgot about products like VMWare and Parallels. They might support USB-Firewire capture devices like this one:

http://www.pinnaclesys.com/PublicSit...version+12.htm

At a stretch, you might be able to record the capture to a shared folder on the Mac. This might be pushing too far for HD capture though.

Maybe Pinnacle could be persuaded to make a Mac driver for that device given that they have other Mac products. They could be working on it already. Given that all Macs in the past 10 years have had firewire, there was no need for this. This has opened up a pretty large market.

Apple will probably sell a few million of these macbooks and a good percentage will be movie buffs who would rather buy a $100 capture device than a new camcorder.

I still need it.

Maybe but you still need to preview and scrub, set ins and outs and log the clips. You'll need some decent movie software and a display. Not like you just capture the whole reel into a single file on a headless server. I think it would be more like hundreds of dollars rather than $50.

I am deeply hoping that's just a coincidence, as it would be truly pathetic of Apple to do that intentionally.

Wouldn't be shocked, though. It's well-known that Steve does have something of a tit-for-tat petty streak.

...

Can you cite any evidence where AAPL indicated it was phasing out Firewire (forget about the 400 vs. 800 argument -- that isn't the point)
What about loyal customers with a heavy investment in FW peripherals who require a more mobile 13 inch Macbook?
So you agree with me that AAPL has sacrifices superior technology for the sake of marketing?

Care to expand on that. Why?

- to migrate data?
- to trouble shoot?
- other?

To migrate data has been solved by Apple. Migration Assistant will use Ethernet or wireless networks.

Troubleshooting using Target Disk mode is not solved as far as I know. Target disk mode was very useful, and it's alot of work removing a laptop HD and putting it in another machine.

As nice as eSATA is (no extra controller, maximum speed), it is not bus-powered. You can drive a dual 2.5" drive array of the bus power of Firewire 800. For all mobile devices (ie, those devices not sitting permanently on or under your desk), Firewire 800 (and even more so Firewire 3200) over clear advantages that those people who care about convenience and performance and easily willing to pay a bit more for.

Actually, I've heard of Firewire sticks. I don't think there are too many as they are expensive.

http://www.kanguru.com/fireflash.html

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/periphera...fed-245941.php


That you haven't heard of such, just proves that USB 2.0 peripherals are more popular.

i really wonder just how much of a problem this is. A fair number of 'serious amateurs and professionals' are likely to have gotten a MacBookPro anyway cause of the way better graphics card and that as I recall still has firewire. As for the consumer editing home movies of his keys, he's probably got an iMac for the family and not a laptop and that still has firewire.

The MacBook is clearly being marketed to the non film school/music school students and general public doing email/word processing etc and NOT to the market that is doing video, advanced photo work, music work. ANd it seems like it has been that way for a while. And do those peeps really need firewire, perhaps not.

go look at the Apple Store site. there are displayport to DVI/VGA/Dual DVI adapters. just like you had for the mini-dvi and micro-dvi ports.

not to mention that one single port type is more end user friendly for the non tech types. they don't have to walk in and remember both if the other end should be dvi or vga AND if the computer is dvi, mini dvi or micro dvi. screw it up and you get to drive back to the mall to get the right one. or worse, you don't realize it until you are on the road and can't replace it.

no but apparently it is wrong for a company to

So tell me - when the backlight dies on an average consumer's shiny, new MacBook, what does he do? Take it to an Apple Store, where they'll ask if he's backed up his data? He'll say no, more than likely. Although he could have if he'd been able to turn the computer into a dumb FW drive. His fault for not backing up? Sure. Good customer experience? Nope. There will be no dewey-eyed switchers bemusedly remarking that working with their old, broken Windows laptop had never been so easy.

In my office I have an older Mac Mini with broken video out. I haven't bothered having it repaired because I don't need to. I just pop it into FW target disk mode, attach it to another Mini, and I can do anything I like with it, including booting from it and installing and configuring an OS from scratch if I need to. Now that it's set up, I run it as a little, headless mini-server doing odd-jobs for me. Without target disk mode, it would be a brick.

Would the average consumer ever do any of this this? Likely not. However, what's good for the service technicians is ultimately good for the consumer.

Video and Audio are important, but Target Disk Mode is the real loss here. Apple products have always differentiated themselves NOT merely on the basis of the OS. The hardware has always offered innovative features as well, many targeted at the people who wind up called upon to fix the things when they break.

As Apple systematically eliminates the points that differentiate their hardware from the hordes of generic slop out there, there will be less and less reason not to buy that slop, especially when you can hack OSX onto it anyway.

USB 2 offers enough power for single notebook drives. Although most USB bus-powered drive come with a connector that draws power from both USB ports, I have found that the iBook can power such drives with a single USB port.

2.5" drive array is what I would call a common usage scenario. If you need that much storage, you are better off with a 3.5" drive array and neither FW or USB can power a full size HD, let alone a drive array.

Yes, thats because Sony owns huge pieces of the blu-ray technology......... everyone else seems to be having a hard time getting profitable licenses. Imagine that.

wait a second, you can't boot a computer from a USB attached drive. So how is it that just yesterday I booted my Macbook Air from a wired external drive. did they start making firewire ports look just like USB 2.0. and cables too. cause I'm pretty darn sure that I was using USB.

and yes I did say that I booted it from that drive. I had made a bootable external drive for emergencies.

it was a tad slower than perhaps firewire would have been but then again the computer itself is slower than other models so who knows which was the major factor. regardless things weren't that much slower for my tastes.

Shocker!

_________________

it's not like their machines suddenly won't have firewire on them. if they had it before, they have it now. so that's moot.

and if they upgrade they will get an Intel Mac that boots just fine from USB

those that want quality have no issue with the extra $400 to get a low end Pro. because they want the quality of the better screen, better connection ports and better graphics cards.

HD v Blu-Ray. two entered, one remained.

1. the Mini was designed as a transition machine and many folks in that group don't need to burn DVDs

2. there is a model with a DVD burner

3. wait and see if there's still a combo and not a super drive when they are upgraded (whenever that happens). I'm betting not. I am betting that the video out will be displayport like the new laptops so they can streamline their adapters. sucker bet there methinks

…and Apple keeps making money and we get to keep shelling it out patching their incessant changes of hardware and standards.

The supposed simplicity and "just works" vaporises in reality with all the missing technologies, inconsistent implementation across models, patches, conflicting ports and cables, switches in hardware and direction Steve Jobs forces on his customers.

so the morons at Apple created the MacBook Air without FW knowing that it can't be repaired. that's basically what you are saying because you have to have FW to repair a drive and there's no FW on an Air.

Sorry but no. Repairing a drive generally requires that you are not booted to that drive and that is 100% doable via USB if you have an Intel Mac. if you don't then either it's probably a machine that is so old its time to replace it anyway or it came with FW which will still work just fine (this ain't no rented movie file from ITunes we are talking about)

there is such a thing as too many options.

the average user just wants the computer to work. they really don't care if something is USB or FW, they don't know the difference and won't care about the 3 seconds longer that USB takes to do something.

Pro users are the ones that want the bells and whistles which is why they are still on the Pro machines

you mean like this

Power Support Film Set for Macbooks

same company that makes the screens apple sells in store for the phone.

Dear Apple,
Here's my shopping list. If I can't get it, then I wait... I postpone buying.

- Small Form Factor. 13" is fine, even 12" would work. I want very portable.
- Bright screen (usable riding in a car) LED backlight is ideal
- Fast Graphics (should be much better than low end)
- Firewire connectivity. I have two FW video cameras, several firewire hard drives, and I'm looking at portable firewire audio. I want a small form factor, not a large notebook. FireWire is the best to date. USB doesn't compare (but you knew that).
- Not too expensive, the MBP is too much.

Apple, you used to say that you don't sell stripped down computers. Now, it seems you do.

No firewire without offering a better substitute is stripping the computer down. What you should have done is offer the small connector FW 800 on the MacBook and FW 3200 on the MBP. The MBP could also offer eSATA. When we lost SCSI we got something better, FireWire. Now you're just taking away. We need high speed connectivity, not USB rubbish. We need FireWire or an Express Slot or something to work with. I would have preferred only 1 USB port, I could hang a four port hub on that. The space for the other USB could be FW. If you could do it before on a MacBook, you ought to still be able to do it. Technology is getting better, smaller, right?

We expect more from Apple. We're willing to pay something of a premium NOT to get a stripped down machine. I don't need a pro machine for travel. I have a Mac Pro.

Apple, Please don't sell stripped down machines. I won't buy them. I'll wait until you build computers I want to buy at a price I can manage. There are millions of users with FireWire Video cameras and Hard Drives. Hundreds of thousands of musicians who can't buy pro machines.

I waited a long time before I bought my Mac Pro. 8 cores, 10 GB memory. Very nice machine. Build it and we will buy. Please don't try to sell us stripped down machines. Thanks.

Imagine if Apple had done this instead:

$999 for current low end Aluminum model selling for $1299
$1299 for the current model selling for $1599
$1599 for a model with an express card slot, firewire 800, slightly faster CPU, bigger HD, discrete graphics

They stopped shipping FW cables with iPods, then they stopped supporting FW syncing with iPods, then they released a new Mac computer that had no FW capabilities (only USB), then they stopped allowing recharging of iDevices over FW. Add that trend with the fact that mostif not allIntel Macs had double the USB2.0 than FW400 ports and the fact that it's a dead-end port standard, unless FW800 to 3200, and USB1.0 to 2.0 to 3.0, it's not hard to see where it was going. The only question was when; now we know.


If you need to replace your current MB, then buy the old style MacBook that is now more affordable. If your argument is about FW400 and not being the kid with the shiniest toy then this cost reduction should be a welcome reprieve.


I'd love to hear how you think the removal of FW400 is being used for marketing. Extra media attention that the new machining process or new design wasn't going to get? I don't think so.

They removed it because they see it as an obsolescing tech the way PCMCIA, serial, RJ-11, parallel and floppy drives all had to be replaced. At least three of the ones I just mentioned caused the same manic among Mac faithfuls, and at least two of them offer considerably less use and had no real alternative even if bought the Pro version of their notebook.

PS: The internal notebook optical drive is next.

so do the math. how much will it cost you to buy a low end MBP v a MacBook and all new accessories.

I won't be shocked when it comes out that the Pro is cheaper.

it won't work.

because for every name you get they will have 3 sales of the machines which tells them that those 3 people don't care about the lack of FW.

and guess which one they will listen to. yep the money.

it's like the folks that whine about having to sign up with ATT for 2 years to get an iphone. if you tell them to not get the phone they are all "but I gotta have it. I just gotta"

Or imagine if Apple had done this instead:

$99 for current low end Aluminum model selling for $1299
$129 for the current model selling for $1599
$159 for a model with an express card slot, firewire 800, slightly faster CPU, bigger HD, discrete graphics

Did I just blow your mind or what? Seriously, what is the point of lowering the price for the sake of lowering the price? They'd sell more units, but that doesn't mean more net profit. Without stating how this would benefit the company it has absolutely no value, except to say that you want the price to be lower, but as consumers we always want the price to be lower (and as elitists we want the item to be rare).

I'm going to bookmark that. Petitions to get crappy TV shows renewed can get excessive so it'll be interesting to see how many people actually sign this. The difference being that I think changing a a studios mind on a TV is much more likely than getting Apple to reintroduce a HW feature it has systematically pushed away from.

I hope so.
I was hoping that apple would take that out and add better graphics or an express slot. Now I hope that they take it out and put FireWire back. And no I do not want the old style MacBook with the X3100 graphics so I can have FireWire.

Read http://macs.about.com/b/2008/08/21/e...to-the-mac.htm there are quite a few articles on this patent.

There is no guarantee but it makes sense.

• Deliver a benefit (target disk mode)
• Try and patent it
• Deliver it using standards

Apple has a history of removing technology earlier than most vendors, lots of little inconveniences but Apple is taking the Apple community in the right direction.

With Nehalem and Snow Leopard coming out about this time next year, I will hold off replacing my original MBP, alas at that time I will probably have to replace my RME firewire audio interface.....

lol yeah, except the 2$ that they saved by cutting it out didn't get passed along to you conner, it just went to the gulfstream upkeep.

LOL.

This was just premature. Lets face it, Apple just can't hold it. If USB3 was in this macbook, nobody would complain. If it had an expansion card, nobody would complain.

they ripped out firewire like 9 months too soon and didn't replace it with anything.

Explain how Apple is taking us in the right direction? Where does this blind faith come from? You won't have to replace your RME (great product) unless you go with a Macbook. If you buy a Macbook you're throwing your money away.

Here's the type of performance you're looking at with USB 2.0

Here's how eSATA, FW800 and USB 2.0 stack up



USB 2.0 Dominated



USB 2.0 Dominated



USB 2.0 Dominated



USB 2.0 Dominated


Who in their right mind could say that dropping Firewire for USB was a good thing?
This is is just the speed deficit you face in storage the difference for audio interfaces
in latency and realtime performance is even more severe.

Steve made the decision that was most expedient for this design goals. He wanted a thin
laptop carved from aluminum and when the space got tight he jettisoned FW and created
an artificial line of demarcation between Macbook and Macbook Pro that prior had never existed

So in 9 months you may not call it premature, but do you think that others would be ready to buy new HW in 9 months?

[QUOTE]Lets face it, Apple just can't hold it. If USB3 was in this macbook, nobody would complain. If it had an expansion card, nobody would complain.[/qupte]
Even when USB3.0 is finished and included in Macs, the number of devices with it will probably be very slim, and the same argument that they can't use their current equipment with a new MacBook still remain.


They done it before and I'm certain they'll do it again, but since Apple sticks with a case design for 3-4 years the only Apple-like solution would be to have not updated the MacBook case until USB3.0 is ready. The good news is that you can buy the old style MacBook or just wait a year for new Macs with USB3.0.

None of those show FW400 speeds, which this conversation seems to be dominated by. I'd like to see those results. If your argument is that making FW800 only a Pro feature to push people into MBPs over MBs, then I certainly see your point. That certainly is a shady, though strategic, marketing move.

What sort of advanced warning do you need? It's not on the New machines, which you don't have to buy. They are not taking it away or disabling in on your existing computers...