Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire - Page 14

I should have included this from the "Other Thoughts"


So Apple has, for the sake of design, chosen to default to the slowest connection available. The Mac Tech press has been asleep choosing to parrot the "USB is standard" lineup. Well if USB is standard and available on PCs in more abundance than Macs then woudn't that be one less thing to buy a Macintosh for?

Apple's in a precarious position here. Every Mac can run Windows..when it gets to the point thwere the Macintosh hardware is prohibitively expensive and OS X doesn't offer appreciable advantages over Vista/W7 you will easily have an exodus back to windows.

These lame Macbooks aren't going to impress the masses.

This is just Apple's way to help the economy.

If they dump firewire off all their machines, everyone will go out and buy new gear.

Apple is just being patriotic here.

[the above was sarcasm]

The problem I have with all this is that Apple didn't simply remove Firewire from the MacBook, they did it while at the same time pushing the MacBook more upscale. It can almost be considered a 13" MacBook Pro at this point so dropping Firewire is like adding insult to injury.

No doubt. At this point we should have had FW800 as the standard. I still can't believe this laptop is USB 2.0 only. One the eve of USB 3.0 (which Macbook owners won't be able to upgrade to) your Macbook is going to lose value.

I don't know if I can do this. I've got a feeling that I'm just going to end up purchasing a Nehalem PC and perhaps I'll end up running something like Adobe Premiere Pro when I want to dabble on the go and as long as the iMac doesn't lose FW I'll fun FCP on a 24 incher.

I work too GD hard for my money to buy into a product that has limited life and performance.

I am watching a documentary on Pixar. Steve Jobs is in it. He said something interesting about why most movie sequels suck that I think is applicable to new MacBooks (he was referring to Toy Story 2).

He said many times sequel directors/producers think they know what made the first film successful and try to build upon that for the second film. As result, they focus on the wrong stuff and the sequel is met with criticism or downright sucks. I wonder if this was true for the new Macbooks. They focused so much on design and looks (they thought this was the direction consumers wanted), but in reality the Macbooks were so popular because they were small, very portable, and had the ability to do multiple things for many people... Apple messed up the sequel...

Please people, stop making excuses for a poor decision by Apple. FireWire is still a viable technology and USB really doesn't cut it when it comes to audio/video work. Remember...

1: The MacBook is NOT a 'consumer' device. Is tis a PROsumer machine with a price tag to match.
2: Just because YOU do not use FireWire does not make a good argument for getting rid of it on the MacBook.
3: USB is not a viable or like for like replacement for FireWire in audio/video applications. USB is flaky and problematic when daisy chaining or importing.
4: You cannot operate digicam functions through USB.
5: Someday you may need TDM. Help!
6: External HDs, audio devices, digicams, iPods all with FW only STILL exist! Just 'cos YOU don't own one is not reason enough to ignore others needs.
7: Don't get me started about glossy screens, lack of expresscard, over cooked design etc...

Anyway...

LOOK!! New for 2010! Apple totally redesign the MacBook for a new decade!

"We've stripped out all the unnecessary technology and clutter for the 'New Thinking even more Different" age.
Out go all those annoying ports and unsightly keys.
We have even trimmed the MacBook down so that you, our valued customer, will never again suffer the indignity or inconvenience of lugging around a heavy piece of equipment."

.At only $1299, the new Apple notebook






Nice.

Yes, I do.

You know what i hate more that crappy hardware? Condescending guys like you who try to make people with legitimate criticism look like they are cheap, dumb, or both.

That's a good point. I think that in so many ways computer hardware is kind of in a state of doldrums. We're placing so much emphasis on CPU clockspeed and GPU speed/memory but we're not looking holistically at the tangible improvements these advances make in our lives. When people are obsessing about buying the 2Ghz or the 2.2Ghz computer and have no clue that using that USB port "taxes" their CPU more making minute differences in clockspeed rather moot we have a problem.

Acer Aspire "Netbook" Amazon's #1 seller

If Apple wants to deliver a glorfied surfing box then give me a $600 Apple branded Netbook. Don't give me a $1300 crippled computer that actually regresses the state of Mac laptops.



LOL. Good points.

you can bet that they set Apple Care at 3 years because that's the typical amount of time a user will go before thinking about getting a new machine. and the amount of time it generally takes for technology and price to change so much that repair rather than replacement isn't worth it.

apple is making enough sales that they aren't worried about the small percentage of folks that will leave apple because there's no firewire on a macbook anymore.

just in the past week I have done software based repairs on 4 Macs (3 laptops, one desktop) and rebuild from backup images 12 Macs and guess what. I didn't use target disk mode once. I did boot from a USB connected external hard drive 16 times

I'm struggling to understand what the issue is here, and why people are complaining? Put yourselves in an Apple executive's shoes - your job is to grow the business, in their case angling their computers in the direction of supporting the tech trends relative to their products. If you're a "video producer" and you use a Macbook, successfully, then stick with it - but don't ever expect future Macbooks (read: aimed at schools and uni students) to continue to support last year's tech just to keep you interested. If you're successfully producing video using your current Macbook, then moving to a newer Macbook isn't going to change anything for you save for a possibly larger HD and a slightly faster chip - if you do need to move on that much from your existing Macbook then you're probably (unknowingly) in the market for a Macbook Pro anyway, which will still support your legacy hardware.

but there's something missing. context. when was that quote made. because if it was some 5 year ago comment who is to say that it is even still valid. maybe back then he hated focus groups but now he hosts them twice a week

if anyone at apple believed that they would have removed him.


uh, Sony was one of the founders of the BluRay Disc Association and as such probably pays nil in fees to put the drives in their machines. whereas Apple would likely have to license that right. thus the question of expense.


yeah but how many folks that would use esata wouldn't pony up for a pro anyway. I bet not that many.


i suppose you have already developed the tech so you know how quick and cheap it is. probably already wrote the OS as well.

I get all my drives at my local Apple store and I have not seen a FW only drive in ages. every one of them has USB, some USB only. some USB AND

Well if I were in the computer business I'd be stupid to ignore the needs of a 'small percentage' who want a $3 port on a $1300 machine. Remember, if that 'small percentage' leave Apple because of a cheap ass omission then Apple lose loyal customers who have invested many $$$'s in Apple kit over the years and potentially lose thousands more $$$'s in the future. These users may very well NEVER return to Apple hardware. In my book that is not good business practice and cannot be justified. A business is only as good or as healthy as their customers allow. Money talks and loyalty is everything. From the coffee bar to the computer maker, all businesses rely on customer loyalty. Lose that and you lose credibility. Lose credibility and you lose $$$'s.

and I bet you guys start griping about tv shows and movies sucking before they come out. all because you don't like the babe that is the love interest.

why don't you wait and see what happens in two years and how it is received before you start second guessing.

The question is not that people will leave Apple because of Firewire. Humans rarely state what is really bothering them. What you hear vocalized is generally not the root cause of pain. When a Mac user says "I'm not buying a Macbook because it has no firewire" many are really contemplating leaving the platform because of other root level issues. Could be disatisfaction with pricing or system stability. All companies shoud take heed to the complaints of their customers.


That's your job though. With the first iMacs I could slap memory into them in 4 minutes because I got good with practice. TDM is good for the person that doesn't relish the idea of opening their Mac..disconnecting their drive and putting it in a case. Different skillsets and experience but it doesn't negate the value of FW based TDM.


We don't have to put ourselve in the shoes of Apple Execs. Our motivations and goals are often diametrically opposed. I want the most features for the lowest price and they want the lowest Build of Materials and the highest retail pricing (margin). What you promulgate is that I should purchase a computer with a featureset that is not in my best interests as it relates to performance and longevity of my computer. Where exactly does that make sense?


A HP Pavillion (consumer) dv5t has Blu-ray, HDMI, eSATA, Firewire and expresscard 34 for less than $1299. I guess considering the typical Mac users logic ..HP should rebrand the Pavillion as a Pro computer.

3 machines. all using time machine with a usb external. first backups took some time but now it's seconds to at the most 5 minutes for one large video file which was a rarity (and it was 3 GB)


there is an esata port on the pros. has been

nevermind, I'm an idiot...

Stylus not included.

right from the site

System Requirements
Mac OS® 8.6 or higher for USB 1.1 mode
Mac OS X v10.2.7 or higher for USB 2.0 mode

no mention of needing a firewire port

I think you've got everything reversed here. As a customer, I am only supposed to be looking out for my own interests, not those of Apple. If I am not happy with the direction they are taking with their products, I have the full right to voice my complaints to Apple. While I don't particular lament the departure of Firewire, I do believe that having USB 2 as the only peripheral connectivity option is not acceptable for the price I am paying.

No, eSATA has never been offered on any Apple computer. It can only be added through expansion cards, such as PCIe cards (only possible on the Mac Pro) or ExpressCard (Only possible on the Macbook Pro).

A pro customer would expect the eSATA port to be integrated in a far more graceful manner than an ExpressCard (in other words, included by default and merged with the USB port). After all, eSATA is more widely adopted than FW 800.

I was hoping for that, myself. Remove the optical drive altogether and add EC/54 across the line. Apple's 9.5mm drives just aren't great speed-wise for professionals anyway.



I do use FW400 daily, but can easily adapt since it is my TM drive which has USB2.0 on it, but I won't be buying new Mac notebook until we get some hard data on NVIDIA (whom I don't trust yet), and we see how well these new unibody designs work out.



Why not get the old MacBook design. The overall performance specs aren't much difference and they are tried-and-true, and with a lower pricepoint. Then in a couple years buy yourself the new design once USB3.0 has been implemented and you are ready to get new perhiipals that support USB3.0.



They have, but you must admit that FW400 was a 'dead-end' tech. Now, if they offered FW800 and a FW800-to-400 adapter their would be virtually no complaining (I know from this forum that posters can very clever in what they find fault in), but we see Apple want's EC and FW800 to be a Pro feature only. These last two things I wish were standard as I want my 3G in a MacBook and not that damn USB card I have sticking out, but they want the upsell and I can't change this so I see no reason to rant about it.

I can't help but to remind posters, again, that Apple dropped DL-DVD burners to a SL-DVD burners in the very popular 15" MBP because they made it so thin. DVD burning was much more relevant then than for the consumer it is now. And at the same time, they dropped PCMCIA for EC/34. Granted, it's better than PCMCIA, but the cards weren't compatible (and many of these FW400 peripherals do support USB2.0, too) so people had to buy all new PC Cards if they wanted a MacBook Pro with the same function, which introduced the problem that very few 3rd-parties offered any EC/34 cards at all, much less covering the vast array of PCMCIA products


Time will tell, and despite my previously mentioned reservations, I am already impressed with the potential of these NVIDIA chipsets and the new unibody construction process.

PS: Hopefully there will be away to remove the SATA optical drive and put in a ExpressCard port. That will mean widening the optical drive opening a bit, but I think the real issue is that EC connects to PCIe, so I don't know if that makes it technically impossible.

or hooked a USB external to the computer. firewire is NOT the only option for backing up. and the speed difference isn't that noticeable for the typical users smaller files.


since the average consumer isn't likely to do it anyway, losing it doesn't matter.

the original comment was that you can not repair a computer without target disk mode and thus firewire.

my point is that you can, I know I do it all the time.

the average consumer, who is target audience for the macbook, isn't going to care about whether the external drive he was convinced to buy for backups is USB or firewire, so long as it works.

and when his computer fails, the good folks at apple can do just what I did and boot it from a USB drive if it is intel or if not then it's very likely got firewire so what's the issue.

Half of those requirements show that you should be buying a Macbook Pro, but to argue those.

2.) I use firewire.
5.) You can boot a Macbook using USB apparently. A few users on this board have tried it. This is new to me, but it would replace TDM.
6.) Sure, and there are even more USB ones. Hey I use firewire ones, but I use Pro machines. Likely third-party adapters will take care of these. AND as we pointed out, Apple isn't changing your existing machine you can still do this on the machine you have.
7.) More expansion is reserved for the costlier machine, you want more expansion, pay for it.

I never liked the original Macbook design. My rule of thumb is never buy first gen anything. I was so impressed with the new MB design I was ready to break it. I avoided the first gen MB Pro because Core 2 Duo was worth waiting for. AAPL changed the case design to provide much better air flow on the C2D model I bought. I won't buy the new first gen MB Pro with a Penryn CPU because Nelaham is right around the corner. I expect AAPL will probably tweak the chasis and case. Maybe they'll even reincorporate FW on a MB!

Nehelam is only around the corner for the Mac Pro.

For all other machines, people will have to wait.

Regular desktops will see Nehalem sometime in the first, or early 2nd quarter of next year.

Portable users will have to wait until late next year. These are Intel's timelines, and have been well written about.

All you have to do is wait a few months for the new MacBook Pro to appear in the Refurbished section of the Apple Online Store and pick it up for the price of a new high end MacBook. it will still have the same one year warranty and available Apple Care support.

That is a one year corner. We'll see a release later this year, if still on target, maybe a high-end Mac Pro for both Apple and Intel marketing aspects as it's only the server and workstation-grade CPUs that will be ready. If you can wait a year for Nehelam, USB3.0, any new case design issues, NVIDIA HW/and driver issues, and whatever else could happen, then I think that is smart idea.

Me too.

WTF.

Just adding my own frustration toward Apple's decision to remove Firewire from the MacBook. I know video professionals who spend most of their time working at a desk, but occasionally need to do some editing on the road. WIth Apple's new lineup, they now have to spend $2000 for a computer that'll spend much of its time in a bag in the corner. What purpose was there to add a real graphics card to the MacBook and pedal it as a Macbook Pro but smaller and $700 cheaper if they were just going to artificially cripple it in another manner?

Here's an idea for Apple: make 7200RPM drives standard on the MacBook Pro, as well as 4GB of RAM and high density screens, and then professionals would have a legitimate reason to spend $2k on a laptop instead of simply because the $1300 and $1600 models are artificially crippled. It's getting pretty absurd. The entry price for an Apple tower has increased from $1599 to $2800 in the past 8 years, and now you have to spend $2000 to have a laptop you can connect your DV camera to.

I'm using a two year old 2.16 C2D MB Pro. I love it! I calculated its depreciation cost @ $50 a month when I bought it. A replacement Nelaham MB Pro is already on my radar! I admire the new MB's smaller form factor, too, and would consider buying both.

Ok I will have a go at explaining 'how apple is taking us in the right direction'

• Serial port and ADB replaced with USB. I was upset at having to replace an ADB dongle and a serial MIDI interface but USB has given Mac owners so many periphral options.
• Nubus and AGP replaced with PCI/PCIx/PCI express again more options for Mac Owners.
• 6800 to G3/4/5 to intel 486. I can now run windows if I have to with bootcamp or fusion/parallels.
• Mac OS9 to unix based OS X again more users to the Mac

I think all these moves, although painful in small increments, has brought us 'the mac community' in the right direction, and this is vindicated by the growing number of mac users in our community. I guess my 'blind faith' is because recently Apple has been executing quite well on a simple strategy. Support and use standards thus not marginalising the platform but differentiate and add value where you can. Or put more simply don't create barriers unless they are to your advantage.

Which brings me to our beloved Firewire. I will miss firewire when it is gone but it has served its purpose. Firewire was an important enabling technology in the past for the iPod, DV cameras, external drives, and audio interfaces.

iPods have used USB2 for years, DV cameras are being replaced with HD cameras which use USB2 (I recently bought the Sony HDR SR12 which only has USB2), external drives as you rightly pointed out are better served by esata. Which leaves the audio interfaces which are moving to USB2 for the low end and ExpressCard/34 for the high end.

As I said in my original email I am waiting until next year to update, from what I read Nehalem should be worth waiting and I am hoping Snow Leopard could bring some features in the home server/network space. I agree with you that the RME Fireface800 is a great product but I am not holding my breath that Firewire will be around this time next year, even on the MBP. I would prefer an esata port for a quick/cheap external drive and leave the ExpressCard/34 slot free for a fast low latency audio interface/external DSP and perhaps USB3 will be ready.

All these painful little steps has lowered the cost of being a mac user and we should be in a position to benefit from multi-core Nehalem, a lot more than say our Win32 cousins....

what a lame comparision! FireWire on computers is ment for totally different solutions, compared to the ipod or iphone, which are both devices that do not really need the benefit of FireWire. How could anyone see this coming? Because the iPod switched to usb years ago? Come on! That wasnt exactly an 'advance warning' for the Macbook.

Connor, what film scanner and Mac are you using now?

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Connor, you still there?