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Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire - Page 14

post #521 of 1663
10/17/08 at 4:19pm
[QUOTE=solipsism;1325854]So in 9 months you may not call it premature, but do you think that others would be ready to buy new HW in 9 months?

Quote:
Lets face it, Apple just can't hold it. If USB3 was in this macbook, nobody would complain. If it had an expansion card, nobody would complain.[/qupte]
Even when USB3.0 is finished and included in Macs, the number of devices with it will probably be very slim, and the same argument that they can't use their current equipment with a new MacBook still remain.


They done it before and I'm certain they'll do it again, but since Apple sticks with a case design for 3-4 years the only Apple-like solution would be to have not updated the MacBook case until USB3.0 is ready. The good news is that you can buy the old style MacBook or just wait a year for new Macs with USB3.0.

I guess my point was to try and replace FW with something else. an expansion card would let people use firewire if they needed it, without including it specifically. USB3 might be able to have an adaptor that could connect to firewire simply b/c it'd be so much faster than USB2.
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post #522 of 1663
10/17/08 at 4:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

Because this thing sucks, look, I have more invested in FireWire peripherals than I have invested in computers, these peripherals don't really go obsolete. And it isn't like USB 2.0 really performs as well as FireWire (especially in hard disks)

Then don't buy a new MacBook. I'm not. I am curious to see if they do the same thing to the iMac. If they do, I won't buy one of those either.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #523 of 1663
10/17/08 at 4:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

This is interesting.


The affordable 13-inch MacBook provides USB2 connectivity for audio I/O, and the MOTU 828mkII USB2 audio interface is the perfect professional audio I/O solution for this new generation of MacBooks. With plug-and-play connectivity via ultrafast USB 2.0, you take full advantage of USB 2.0's 480 Mb/sec bus speed, which is even higher than FireWire 400.

hilarious
they're using a macbook pro in the photo


errrr..... are u sure the text matches the photo ???
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post #524 of 1663
10/17/08 at 4:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

They stopped shipping FW cables with iPods, then they stopped supporting FW syncing with iPods, then they released a new Mac computer that had no FW capabilities (only USB), then they stopped allowing recharging of iDevices over FW. Add that trend with the fact that mostif not allIntel Macs had double the USB2.0 than FW400 ports and the fact that it's a dead-end port standard, unless FW800 to 3200, and USB1.0 to 2.0 to 3.0, it's not hard to see where it was going. The only question was when; now we know.

I use a MB Pro and several FW peripherals. I intended to buy a new Macbook for my company but its lack of Firewire killed the sale. I insist all my Macs do Target Disk mode. I must admit you make a reasonable argument. However, marketing isn't only what you say, it's what you omit! I don't think AAPL wants to advertise that it's selling inferior technology.
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post #525 of 1663
10/17/08 at 4:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by trip1ex View Post

" I'm sorry that you and others* aren't getting what you want, but the customer base you mention is probably barely a blip on Apple's radar."

This post pretty much sums it up.

Most of the naysaying posts are whining because they aren't arguing the decision from the perspective of a mass market product.

They are merely looking at themselves and saying, "oh Apple, why art you thou doing this to me?"

I mean it's pretty obvious to everyone that if you're a heavy FW user and you wanted a new MB then you're disappointed. 1+1=2

Do you have to go on the internet and say what everyone already knows?

If you want to disagree with the decision then provide some evidence on how new MB sales are going to take a nosedive from this decision. After all this is how Apple is run.

Otherwise it is pretty much whining.

From what I can see the vast majority of MB users (I would say 99%) don't have any need for FW.

When I go the retail store or visit a site like Newegg.com the vast majority of storage devices out there for consumers are USB. There are a few FW/USB storage devices and even fewer (close to zero) FW-only storage devices.

Also the majority of consumer camcorders of the last year or two are USB. The move is on to Flash memory camcorders which I believe all carry USB interfaces. Canon has previously stated that this where their future lies for their consumer camcorder product.

Also one can see that Apple hasn't put FW on many other devices including iPods, AppleTV, Time Capsule and the AEBS.

Last Apple pretty much dropped miniDV support (which usually means FW interface) in IM08 which is their new consumer movie editing software. That was a year ago. Yes it works, but you can't get the quality out to iDVD using IM08.

This evidence should wipe the surprise from the faces of those who are crying "why me??" It should cut down on the drama at least.

Standards change. VHS was big awhile back. SCSI. etc.

The facts are that FW never caught on in the mass market. Intel came out with a much cheaper standard and the lower cost, does the job, good enough interface won the battle.

And now with the much faster USB3 set to be released in the next year or so. With computers having multiple cores which provide more than enough power that negates the cpu savings advantage of FW. FW is dead on the mass market consumer level.

It obviously lives on on the pro level. And there are some legacy consumers. But going forward its dead on the consumer level. And the MB is Apple's mass market consumer laptop.

The reality is the move to an LED screen. To an aluminum body. To a bigger than usual jump in the integrated gpu. To a glass trackpad. etc. These are going to do way more for MB sales than having an old plastic case with FW and a so-so screen did for MB sales.

IT's not the end of the world for the blip on the radar part of the old MB market. Any last-gen MB bought today is plenty fast. It looks like the new MBs aren't any faster than the old ones except in 3d games. The cpus are slower at least in the $1299 model.

Also MBPs are available in the refurb store for $1349 which are quite a bit more powerful than the $1299 new MBs. So if you can't step up to a new MBP when you purchase a new machine then you can step up to a refurb MBP.

In the end, I too am sorry some folks don't like the removal of FW on the new MBs. The reality is these decisions aren't made lightly and are made with millions of consumers in mind. They never can please everyone.

The only people that seem to be complaining or have a legitimate complaint are those with Firewire devices already that can only afford a MacBook. I can understand their frustration, Apple has usually had Firewire on their laptops since the introduction of Firewire and I guess they are so used to it and just expect it. Anything less and they get disappointed. For me personally, I don't buy the low-end laptops, but that's just me. There are USB2 to Firewire cables for a workaround. I am not sure how well they work, but I think is a solution to the problem.
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post #526 of 1663
10/17/08 at 4:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

None of those show FW400 speeds, which this conversation seems to be dominated by. I'd like to see those results. If your argument is that making FW800 only a Pro feature to push people into MBPs over MBs, then I certainly see your point. That certainly is a shady, though strategic, marketing move.

I should have included this from the "Other Thoughts"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barefeats

USB 2.0 speed has improved in the newer Intel Macs but its still "smoked" by both FireWire 800 and SATA interfaces. Even FireWire 400 beats it.

So Apple has, for the sake of design, chosen to default to the slowest connection available. The Mac Tech press has been asleep choosing to parrot the "USB is standard" lineup. Well if USB is standard and available on PCs in more abundance than Macs then woudn't that be one less thing to buy a Macintosh for?

Apple's in a precarious position here. Every Mac can run Windows..when it gets to the point thwere the Macintosh hardware is prohibitively expensive and OS X doesn't offer appreciable advantages over Vista/W7 you will easily have an exodus back to windows.

These lame Macbooks aren't going to impress the masses.
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post #527 of 1663
10/17/08 at 4:43pm
This is just Apple's way to help the economy.

If they dump firewire off all their machines, everyone will go out and buy new gear.

Apple is just being patriotic here.

[the above was sarcasm]
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post #528 of 1663
10/17/08 at 4:50pm
The problem I have with all this is that Apple didn't simply remove Firewire from the MacBook, they did it while at the same time pushing the MacBook more upscale. It can almost be considered a 13" MacBook Pro at this point so dropping Firewire is like adding insult to injury.

     197619842013  

     Where were you when the hammer flew?  

 

MacBook Pro Retina, 13", 2.5 GHz, 8 GB RAM, 256 GB SSD

iPhone 5 • iPad 4 • CR48 Chromebook • ThinkPad X220

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     197619842013  

     Where were you when the hammer flew?  

 

MacBook Pro Retina, 13", 2.5 GHz, 8 GB RAM, 256 GB SSD

iPhone 5 • iPad 4 • CR48 Chromebook • ThinkPad X220

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post #529 of 1663
10/17/08 at 4:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1984 View Post

The problem I have with all this is that Apple didn't simply remove Firewire from the MacBook, they did it while at the same time pushing the MacBook more upscale. It can almost be considered a 13" MacBook Pro at this point. It's like adding insult to injury.

No doubt. At this point we should have had FW800 as the standard. I still can't believe this laptop is USB 2.0 only. One the eve of USB 3.0 (which Macbook owners won't be able to upgrade to) your Macbook is going to lose value.

I don't know if I can do this. I've got a feeling that I'm just going to end up purchasing a Nehalem PC and perhaps I'll end up running something like Adobe Premiere Pro when I want to dabble on the go and as long as the iMac doesn't lose FW I'll fun FCP on a 24 incher.

I work too GD hard for my money to buy into a product that has limited life and performance.
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post #530 of 1663
10/17/08 at 5:09pm
I am watching a documentary on Pixar. Steve Jobs is in it. He said something interesting about why most movie sequels suck that I think is applicable to new MacBooks (he was referring to Toy Story 2).

He said many times sequel directors/producers think they know what made the first film successful and try to build upon that for the second film. As result, they focus on the wrong stuff and the sequel is met with criticism or downright sucks. I wonder if this was true for the new Macbooks. They focused so much on design and looks (they thought this was the direction consumers wanted), but in reality the Macbooks were so popular because they were small, very portable, and had the ability to do multiple things for many people... Apple messed up the sequel...
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post #531 of 1663
10/17/08 at 5:12pm
Please people, stop making excuses for a poor decision by Apple. FireWire is still a viable technology and USB really doesn't cut it when it comes to audio/video work. Remember...

1: The MacBook is NOT a 'consumer' device. Is tis a PROsumer machine with a price tag to match.
2: Just because YOU do not use FireWire does not make a good argument for getting rid of it on the MacBook.
3: USB is not a viable or like for like replacement for FireWire in audio/video applications. USB is flaky and problematic when daisy chaining or importing.
4: You cannot operate digicam functions through USB.
5: Someday you may need TDM. Help!
6: External HDs, audio devices, digicams, iPods all with FW only STILL exist! Just 'cos YOU don't own one is not reason enough to ignore others needs.
7: Don't get me started about glossy screens, lack of expresscard, over cooked design etc...

Anyway...

LOOK!! New for 2010! Apple totally redesign the MacBook for a new decade!

"We've stripped out all the unnecessary technology and clutter for the 'New Thinking even more Different" age.
Out go all those annoying ports and unsightly keys.
We have even trimmed the MacBook down so that you, our valued customer, will never again suffer the indignity or inconvenience of lugging around a heavy piece of equipment."

.At only $1299, the new Apple notebook






Nice.

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post #532 of 1663
10/17/08 at 5:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PB View Post

You mean direct connection through the Ethernet ports without a router in between?

Yes, I do.
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post #533 of 1663
10/17/08 at 5:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tecknojoe View Post

There's a reason why there is a macbook, and a macbook PRO. They have to draw the line somewhere. if you really want firewire, keep your old macbook, or shovel out another $500.

It's a marketing strategy. Apple is growing faster and faster, and they're hoping that this new line will be "an affordable switch" for PC users. Macs have always been more expensive, so the concept of spending more money on the newest technology should be nothing new.

Reasons why apple can do this:
1. You can't get mac os when you buy a sony, hp, dell, whatever!
2. People always think that macs are better(this is an "image")

when you have that image, you can do shit like take away a FW port and let people bitch. They're still gonna grow, they're still going to be amazing machines. SO STOP CRYING AND WORK OVERTIME FOR ANOTHER FEW WEEKS SO U CAN AFFORD A PRO!


You know what i hate more that crappy hardware? Condescending guys like you who try to make people with legitimate criticism look like they are cheap, dumb, or both.
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post #534 of 1663
10/17/08 at 5:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave K. View Post

.

He said many times sequel directors/producers think they know what made the first film successful and try to build upon that for the second film. As result, they focus on the wrong stuff and the sequel is met with criticism or downright sucks. I wonder if this was true for the new Macbooks. They focused so much on design and looks (they thought this was the direction consumers wanted), but in reality the Macbooks were so popular because they were small, very portable, and had the ability to do multiple things for many people... Apple messed up the sequel...

That's a good point. I think that in so many ways computer hardware is kind of in a state of doldrums. We're placing so much emphasis on CPU clockspeed and GPU speed/memory but we're not looking holistically at the tangible improvements these advances make in our lives. When people are obsessing about buying the 2Ghz or the 2.2Ghz computer and have no clue that using that USB port "taxes" their CPU more making minute differences in clockspeed rather moot we have a problem.

Acer Aspire "Netbook" Amazon's #1 seller

If Apple wants to deliver a glorfied surfing box then give me a $600 Apple branded Netbook. Don't give me a $1300 crippled computer that actually regresses the state of Mac laptops.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MiMac View Post

Please people, stop making excuses for a poor decision by Apple. FireWire is still a viable technology and USB really doesn't cut it when it comes to audio/video work. Remember...

1: The MacBook is NOT a 'consumer' device. Is tis a PROsumer machine with a price tag to match.
2: Just because YOU do not use FireWire does not make a good argument for getting rid of it on the MacBook.
3: USB is not a viable or like for like replacement for FireWire in audio/video applications. USB is flaky and problematic when daisy chaining or importing.
4: You cannot operate digicam functions through USB.
5: Someday you may need TDM. Help!
6: External HDs, audio devices, digicams, iPods all with FW only STILL exist! Just 'cos YOU don't own one is not reason enough to ignore others needs.
7: Don't get me started about glossy screens, lack of expresscard, over cooked design etc...

Anyway...

LOOK!! New for 2010! Apple totally redesign the MacBook for a new decade!

"We've stripped out all the unnecessary technology and clutter for the 'New Thinking even more Different" age.
Out go all those annoying ports and unsightly keys.
We have even trimmed the MacBook down so that you, our valued customer, will never again suffer the indignity or inconvenience of lugging around a heavy piece of equipment."

.At only $1299, the new Apple notebook






Nice.


LOL. Good points.
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post #535 of 1663
10/17/08 at 5:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stonybrookadam View Post

But they are the ones buying new macs in the greatest numbers.

Existing Mac users upgrading a two-year-old MacBook Core Duo are the minority.


you can bet that they set Apple Care at 3 years because that's the typical amount of time a user will go before thinking about getting a new machine. and the amount of time it generally takes for technology and price to change so much that repair rather than replacement isn't worth it.
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post #536 of 1663
10/17/08 at 5:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasenj1 View Post



Apple makes no sale. And may lose future sales.

apple is making enough sales that they aren't worried about the small percentage of folks that will leave apple because there's no firewire on a macbook anymore.
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post #537 of 1663
10/17/08 at 5:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by scotty321 View Post

most importantly, it's about Target FireWire mode which can not be replicated in any easy manner!! Target FireWire mode was the de facto and superior way to do troubleshooting or repairs on a drive, along with the quickest & most seamless way to do Migration Assistant.


just in the past week I have done software based repairs on 4 Macs (3 laptops, one desktop) and rebuild from backup images 12 Macs and guess what. I didn't use target disk mode once. I did boot from a USB connected external hard drive 16 times
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post #538 of 1663
10/17/08 at 5:51pm
I'm struggling to understand what the issue is here, and why people are complaining? Put yourselves in an Apple executive's shoes - your job is to grow the business, in their case angling their computers in the direction of supporting the tech trends relative to their products. If you're a "video producer" and you use a Macbook, successfully, then stick with it - but don't ever expect future Macbooks (read: aimed at schools and uni students) to continue to support last year's tech just to keep you interested. If you're successfully producing video using your current Macbook, then moving to a newer Macbook isn't going to change anything for you save for a possibly larger HD and a slightly faster chip - if you do need to move on that much from your existing Macbook then you're probably (unknowingly) in the market for a Macbook Pro anyway, which will still support your legacy hardware.
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post #539 of 1663
10/17/08 at 5:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

But those are quotes I've seen Steve Jobs say. I think the most relevant quote saying that he doesn't like focus groups comes from the D5 conference when he was on stage with Bill Gates.

but there's something missing. context. when was that quote made. because if it was some 5 year ago comment who is to say that it is even still valid. maybe back then he hated focus groups but now he hosts them twice a week
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post #540 of 1663
10/17/08 at 6:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by palex9 View Post

Jobs might be sicker than he can admit, and that might be impairing his judgement!

if anyone at apple believed that they would have removed him.

Quote:
BLUE RAY TO EXPENSIVE? NOT TRUE. SONY VAIO FW LINE OF LAPTOPS OFFERS BLURAY READER/WRITER AS A 150/300 OPTiON.

uh, Sony was one of the founders of the BluRay Disc Association and as such probably pays nil in fees to put the drives in their machines. whereas Apple would likely have to license that right. thus the question of expense.

Quote:
NO FIREWIRE ON THE MACBOOK? HELLO? ESATA? AGAIN HELLO? ONLY USB? NOW YOUR STEPPING BACKWARDS.

yeah but how many folks that would use esata wouldn't pony up for a pro anyway. I bet not that many.

Quote:
NEW GESTURES? FINE. BIGGER TOUCH AREA FINE. BUT WHERE IS SOME REAL INNOVATION LIKE MAKING THE WHOLE SCREEN A TOUCH AREA????

i suppose you have already developed the tech so you know how quick and cheap it is. probably already wrote the OS as well.
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post #541 of 1663
10/17/08 at 6:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

I don't know where Mac users get their external HDDs or peripherals in general, but if they get them at an Apple store, which isn't improbably, there is a good chance its FW.

I get all my drives at my local Apple store and I have not seen a FW only drive in ages. every one of them has USB, some USB only. some USB AND
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post #542 of 1663
10/17/08 at 6:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

apple is making enough sales that they aren't worried about the small percentage of folks that will leave apple because there's no firewire on a macbook anymore.

Well if I were in the computer business I'd be stupid to ignore the needs of a 'small percentage' who want a $3 port on a $1300 machine. Remember, if that 'small percentage' leave Apple because of a cheap ass omission then Apple lose loyal customers who have invested many $$$'s in Apple kit over the years and potentially lose thousands more $$$'s in the future. These users may very well NEVER return to Apple hardware. In my book that is not good business practice and cannot be justified. A business is only as good or as healthy as their customers allow. Money talks and loyalty is everything. From the coffee bar to the computer maker, all businesses rely on customer loyalty. Lose that and you lose credibility. Lose credibility and you lose $$$'s.
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post #543 of 1663
10/17/08 at 6:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Well put- unfortunately.

and I bet you guys start griping about tv shows and movies sucking before they come out. all because you don't like the babe that is the love interest.

why don't you wait and see what happens in two years and how it is received before you start second guessing.
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post #544 of 1663
10/17/08 at 6:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

apple is making enough sales that they aren't worried about the small percentage of folks that will leave apple because there's no firewire on a macbook anymore.

The question is not that people will leave Apple because of Firewire. Humans rarely state what is really bothering them. What you hear vocalized is generally not the root cause of pain. When a Mac user says "I'm not buying a Macbook because it has no firewire" many are really contemplating leaving the platform because of other root level issues. Could be disatisfaction with pricing or system stability. All companies shoud take heed to the complaints of their customers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

just in the past week I have done software based repairs on 4 Macs (3 laptops, one desktop) and rebuild from backup images 12 Macs and guess what. I didn't use target disk mode once. I did boot from a USB connected external hard drive 16 times

That's your job though. With the first iMacs I could slap memory into them in 4 minutes because I got good with practice. TDM is good for the person that doesn't relish the idea of opening their Mac..disconnecting their drive and putting it in a case. Different skillsets and experience but it doesn't negate the value of FW based TDM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by laucala View Post

I'm struggling to understand what the issue is here, and why people are complaining? Put yourselves in an Apple executive's shoes - your job is to grow the business, in their case angling their computers in the direction of supporting the tech trends relative to their products. If you're a "video producer" and you use a Macbook, successfully, then stick with it - but don't ever expect future Macbooks (read: aimed at schools and uni students) to continue to support last year's tech just to keep you interested. If you're successfully producing video using your current Macbook, then moving to a newer Macbook isn't going to change anything for you save for a possibly larger HD and a slightly faster chip - if you do need to move on that much from your existing Macbook then you're probably (unknowingly) in the market for a Macbook Pro anyway, which will still support your legacy hardware.

We don't have to put ourselve in the shoes of Apple Execs. Our motivations and goals are often diametrically opposed. I want the most features for the lowest price and they want the lowest Build of Materials and the highest retail pricing (margin). What you promulgate is that I should purchase a computer with a featureset that is not in my best interests as it relates to performance and longevity of my computer. Where exactly does that make sense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

if anyone at apple believed that they would have removed him.

uh, Sony was one of the founders of the BluRay Disc Association and as such probably pays nil in fees to put the drives in their machines. whereas Apple would likely have to license that right. thus the question of expense.

yeah but how many folks that would use esata wouldn't pony up for a pro anyway. I bet not that many.
i suppose you have already developed the tech so you know how quick and cheap it is. probably already wrote the OS as well.

A HP Pavillion (consumer) dv5t has Blu-ray, HDMI, eSATA, Firewire and expresscard 34 for less than $1299. I guess considering the typical Mac users logic ..HP should rebrand the Pavillion as a Pro computer.
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post #545 of 1663
10/17/08 at 6:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by someoneinca View Post

nd if they use TimeMachine, their backups will take forever.

3 machines. all using time machine with a usb external. first backups took some time but now it's seconds to at the most 5 minutes for one large video file which was a rarity (and it was 3 GB)

Quote:
and added an eSATA port to the MacBook Pros.

there is an esata port on the pros. has been
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post #546 of 1663
10/17/08 at 6:20pm
nevermind, I'm an idiot...
One of the fork and spoon operators from Sector 7-G
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post #547 of 1663
10/17/08 at 6:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiMac View Post

Please people, stop making excuses for a poor decision by Apple. FireWire is still a viable technology and USB really doesn't cut it when it comes to audio/video work. Remember...

1: The MacBook is NOT a 'consumer' device. Is tis a PROsumer machine with a price tag to match.
2: Just because YOU do not use FireWire does not make a good argument for getting rid of it on the MacBook.
3: USB is not a viable or like for like replacement for FireWire in audio/video applications. USB is flaky and problematic when daisy chaining or importing.
4: You cannot operate digicam functions through USB.
5: Someday you may need TDM. Help!
6: External HDs, audio devices, digicams, iPods all with FW only STILL exist! Just 'cos YOU don't own one is not reason enough to ignore others needs.
7: Don't get me started about glossy screens, lack of expresscard, over cooked design etc...

Anyway...

LOOK!! New for 2010! Apple totally redesign the MacBook for a new decade!

"We've stripped out all the unnecessary technology and clutter for the 'New Thinking even more Different" age.
Out go all those annoying ports and unsightly keys.
We have even trimmed the MacBook down so that you, our valued customer, will never again suffer the indignity or inconvenience of lugging around a heavy piece of equipment."

.At only $1299, the new Apple notebook






Nice.


Stylus not included.
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post #548 of 1663
10/17/08 at 6:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryn View Post

This is interesting but the specks look like it is a simple 2 port FW hub and a 4 port USB hub meaning that you still need a USB and FW connection to your computer.

Did you actually verify with Belkin that the hub will cross connect FW and USB so that only a USB cable needs to be used with the MB?

right from the site

System Requirements
Mac OS® 8.6 or higher for USB 1.1 mode
Mac OS X v10.2.7 or higher for USB 2.0 mode

no mention of needing a firewire port
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post #549 of 1663
10/17/08 at 6:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by laucala View Post

I'm struggling to understand what the issue is here, and why people are complaining? Put yourselves in an Apple executive's shoes - your job is to grow the business, in their case angling their computers in the direction of supporting the tech trends relative to their products. If you're a "video producer" and you use a Macbook, successfully, then stick with it - but don't ever expect future Macbooks (read: aimed at schools and uni students) to continue to support last year's tech just to keep you interested. If you're successfully producing video using your current Macbook, then moving to a newer Macbook isn't going to change anything for you save for a possibly larger HD and a slightly faster chip - if you do need to move on that much from your existing Macbook then you're probably (unknowingly) in the market for a Macbook Pro anyway, which will still support your legacy hardware.

I think you've got everything reversed here. As a customer, I am only supposed to be looking out for my own interests, not those of Apple. If I am not happy with the direction they are taking with their products, I have the full right to voice my complaints to Apple. While I don't particular lament the departure of Firewire, I do believe that having USB 2 as the only peripheral connectivity option is not acceptable for the price I am paying.
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post #550 of 1663
10/17/08 at 6:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

3 machines. all using time machine with a usb external. first backups took some time but now it's seconds to at the most 5 minutes for one large video file which was a rarity (and it was 3 GB)



there is an esata port on the pros. has been

No, eSATA has never been offered on any Apple computer. It can only be added through expansion cards, such as PCIe cards (only possible on the Mac Pro) or ExpressCard (Only possible on the Macbook Pro).
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post #551 of 1663
10/17/08 at 6:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

yeah but how many folks that would use esata wouldn't pony up for a pro anyway. I bet not that many.

A pro customer would expect the eSATA port to be integrated in a far more graceful manner than an ExpressCard (in other words, included by default and merged with the USB port). After all, eSATA is more widely adopted than FW 800.
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post #552 of 1663
10/17/08 at 6:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by freakboy View Post

guess my point was to try and replace FW with something else. an expansion card would let people use firewire if they needed it, without including it specifically. USB3 might be able to have an adaptor that could connect to firewire simply b/c it'd be so much faster than USB2.

I was hoping for that, myself. Remove the optical drive altogether and add EC/54 across the line. Apple's 9.5mm drives just aren't great speed-wise for professionals anyway.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Then don't buy a new MacBook. I'm not.

I do use FW400 daily, but can easily adapt since it is my TM drive which has USB2.0 on it, but I won't be buying new Mac notebook until we get some hard data on NVIDIA (whom I don't trust yet), and we see how well these new unibody designs work out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ Web View Post

I use a MB Pro and several FW peripherals. I intended to buy a new Macbook for my company but its lack of Firewire killed the sale. I insist all my Macs do Target Disk mode. I must admit you make a reasonable argument. However, marketing isn't only what you say, it's what you omit! I don't think AAPL wants to advertise that it's selling inferior technology.

Why not get the old MacBook design. The overall performance specs aren't much difference and they are tried-and-true, and with a lower pricepoint. Then in a couple years buy yourself the new design once USB3.0 has been implemented and you are ready to get new perhiipals that support USB3.0.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

So Apple has, for the sake of design, chosen to default to the slowest connection available. The Mac Tech press has been asleep choosing to parrot the "USB is standard" lineup.

They have, but you must admit that FW400 was a 'dead-end' tech. Now, if they offered FW800 and a FW800-to-400 adapter their would be virtually no complaining (I know from this forum that posters can very clever in what they find fault in), but we see Apple want's EC and FW800 to be a Pro feature only. These last two things I wish were standard as I want my 3G in a MacBook and not that damn USB card I have sticking out, but they want the upsell and I can't change this so I see no reason to rant about it.

I can't help but to remind posters, again, that Apple dropped DL-DVD burners to a SL-DVD burners in the very popular 15" MBP because they made it so thin. DVD burning was much more relevant then than for the consumer it is now. And at the same time, they dropped PCMCIA for EC/34. Granted, it's better than PCMCIA, but the cards weren't compatible (and many of these FW400 peripherals do support USB2.0, too) so people had to buy all new PC Cards if they wanted a MacBook Pro with the same function, which introduced the problem that very few 3rd-parties offered any EC/34 cards at all, much less covering the vast array of PCMCIA products

Quote:
These lame Macbooks aren't going to impress the masses.

Time will tell, and despite my previously mentioned reservations, I am already impressed with the potential of these NVIDIA chipsets and the new unibody construction process.

PS: Hopefully there will be away to remove the SATA optical drive and put in a ExpressCard port. That will mean widening the optical drive opening a bit, but I think the real issue is that EC connects to PCIe, so I don't know if that makes it technically impossible.
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post #553 of 1663
10/17/08 at 6:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavallo View Post

So tell me - when the backlight dies on an average consumer's shiny, new MacBook, what does he do? Take it to an Apple Store, where they'll ask if he's backed up his data? He'll say no, more than likely. Although he could have if he'd been able to turn the computer into a dumb FW drive.

or hooked a USB external to the computer. firewire is NOT the only option for backing up. and the speed difference isn't that noticeable for the typical users smaller files.

Quote:

Would the average consumer ever do any of this this? Likely not.

since the average consumer isn't likely to do it anyway, losing it doesn't matter.
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post #554 of 1663
10/17/08 at 6:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

T

That's your job though. With the first iMacs I could slap memory into them in 4 minutes because I got good with practice. TDM is good for the person that doesn't relish the idea of opening their Mac..disconnecting their drive and putting it in a case. Different skillsets and experience but it doesn't negate the value of FW based TDM.

the original comment was that you can not repair a computer without target disk mode and thus firewire.

my point is that you can, I know I do it all the time.

the average consumer, who is target audience for the macbook, isn't going to care about whether the external drive he was convinced to buy for backups is USB or firewire, so long as it works.

and when his computer fails, the good folks at apple can do just what I did and boot it from a USB drive if it is intel or if not then it's very likely got firewire so what's the issue.
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post #555 of 1663
10/17/08 at 7:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiMac View Post

P
1: The MacBook is NOT a 'consumer' device. Is tis a PROsumer machine with a price tag to match.
2: Just because YOU do not use FireWire does not make a good argument for getting rid of it on the MacBook.
3: USB is not a viable or like for like replacement for FireWire in audio/video applications. USB is flaky and problematic when daisy chaining or importing.
4: You cannot operate digicam functions through USB.
5: Someday you may need TDM. Help!
6: External HDs, audio devices, digicams, iPods all with FW only STILL exist! Just 'cos YOU don't own one is not reason enough to ignore others needs.
7: Don't get me started about glossy screens, lack of expresscard, over cooked design etc...

Half of those requirements show that you should be buying a Macbook Pro, but to argue those.

2.) I use firewire.
5.) You can boot a Macbook using USB apparently. A few users on this board have tried it. This is new to me, but it would replace TDM.
6.) Sure, and there are even more USB ones. Hey I use firewire ones, but I use Pro machines. Likely third-party adapters will take care of these. AND as we pointed out, Apple isn't changing your existing machine you can still do this on the machine you have.
7.) More expansion is reserved for the costlier machine, you want more expansion, pay for it.
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post #556 of 1663
10/17/08 at 7:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Why not get the old MacBook design. The overall performance specs aren't much difference and they are tried-and-true, and with a lower pricepoint. Then in a couple years buy yourself the new design once USB3.0 has been implemented and you are ready to get new perhiipals that support USB3.0.

I never liked the original Macbook design. My rule of thumb is never buy first gen anything. I was so impressed with the new MB design I was ready to break it. I avoided the first gen MB Pro because Core 2 Duo was worth waiting for. AAPL changed the case design to provide much better air flow on the C2D model I bought. I won't buy the new first gen MB Pro with a Penryn CPU because Nelaham is right around the corner. I expect AAPL will probably tweak the chasis and case. Maybe they'll even reincorporate FW on a MB!
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post #557 of 1663
10/17/08 at 7:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ Web View Post

I never liked the original Macbook design. My rule of thumb is never buy first gen anything. I was so impressed with the new MB design I was ready to break it. I avoided the first gen MB Pro because Core 2 Duo was worth waiting for. AAPL changed the case design to provide much better air flow on the C2D model I bought. I won't buy the new first gen MB Pro with a Penryn CPU because Nelaham is right around the corner. I expect AAPL will probably tweak the chasis and case. Maybe they'll even reincorporate FW on a MB!

Nehelam is only around the corner for the Mac Pro.

For all other machines, people will have to wait.

Regular desktops will see Nehalem sometime in the first, or early 2nd quarter of next year.

Portable users will have to wait until late next year. These are Intel's timelines, and have been well written about.
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post #558 of 1663
10/17/08 at 7:31pm
All you have to do is wait a few months for the new MacBook Pro to appear in the Refurbished section of the Apple Online Store and pick it up for the price of a new high end MacBook. it will still have the same one year warranty and available Apple Care support.
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post #559 of 1663
10/17/08 at 7:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ Web View Post

I won't buy the new first gen MB Pro with a Penryn CPU because Nelaham is right around the corner.

That is a one year corner. We'll see a release later this year, if still on target, maybe a high-end Mac Pro for both Apple and Intel marketing aspects as it's only the server and workstation-grade CPUs that will be ready. If you can wait a year for Nehelam, USB3.0, any new case design issues, NVIDIA HW/and driver issues, and whatever else could happen, then I think that is smart idea.
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post #560 of 1663
10/17/08 at 7:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcassara View Post

I still need it.

Me too.

WTF.
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