or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Mac Hardware › Current Mac Hardware › Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire - Page 15

post #561 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

Hi Steve

Hi Connor, what can I do for you?

Well, I was thinking of getting one of your new laptops, the MacBook 13", but it doesn't have a firewire port, and I kinda need one.

No you don't.

I do Steve, I have an iPod that's firewire only, my external hard drive is firewire, sure it has USB 2 also but if I use that I have to find a power outlet and use a clunky power brick and it's noticeably slower. I also have a 35mm film scanner that's firewire only.

You still have a firewire iPod? - Hahahahaha! Buy a new one, simple.

But it still works fine, I don't really see the need...

Listen Conner, do you have any idea what it costs to run a Gulfstream? Do you have any idea how much fuel that thing uses - hmmm? One load of fuel is more than your car uses in four years. Trust me, you need a new iPod.

But what about the film scanner, they're not cheap...

Film scanner? You're kidding me, right? No one still uses film.

I do. I like film, its self archiving, independent of power sources, and I have thousands invested in lenses.

Connor, do yourself a favour, trust me, get yourself a Canon 5D Mk II - I did.

But Steve, they cost over two grand! To replace my lenses would cost me another 15...

Connor, that's YOUR problem. Look, you're obviously a cheapskate, so just get yourself a USB film scanner, or better yet, just get the Pro.

But Steve, those options are another grand and...

Connor, The Gulfstream needs a new set of rubber - capiche?

Steve, but why couldn't you have just put a firewire port on it?

To save YOU money Connor. You whine and moan about replacing your hardware, but we were only thinking of you as a consumer. I'm truly disappointed that you don't appreciate our efforts on YOUR behalf.

Well, gee, sorry Steve, I guess maybe I was being a bit selfish and I didn't fully realise.......Say Steve, how much did it save?

Two dollars.
.
.
.
.
Connor, you still there?
post #562 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosstheboss View Post

all current models...

http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/ultralite-mk3

http://www.rolandus.com/products/pro...x?ObjectId=731

http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/traveler

there goes my idea of upgrading my portable 12" PB audio recoding editing suite...

Apple, you've lost the plot. And many sales.

Form over function twits!

(and only TWO usb ports? are you joking?!... you're takin the piss big time.)

Here is an ideal mobile audio recording studio designed by pros: http://www.tweakheadz.com/rigs.htm

In fact, this is one of the best sites for anybody in the recording biz: http://tweakheadz.com/index.html Check out the article on "21 Ideas for Home Studio Rigs" and better yet, ask them what they think about Apple' new Macbook.

TweakHeadz Lab http://www.tweakheadz.com
post #563 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by palex9 View Post

BLUE RAY TO EXPENSIVE? NOT TRUE. SONY VAIO FW LINE OF LAPTOPS OFFERS BLURAY READER/WRITER AS A 150/300 OPTiON.

Did you check out the cost of a Sony Vaio with Blu Ray? Please include specs.
post #564 of 1657



Don't ya just love it!
post #565 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

The entry price for an Apple tower has increased from $1599 to $2800 in the past 8 years, and now you have to spend $2000 to have a laptop you can connect your DV camera to.

Why the lies?

The entry level for a Mac Pro is $2299 http://store.apple.com/us_smb_78313/...A?mco=NzQ3Njkz

and, $999 for a Macbook to connect your DV camera.
post #566 of 1657
It's clear that these latest MacBooks were built by the marketing department.
They were purposely crippled.

Many professionals don't need a high end MacBook Pro for travel. Many wannabe's can't afford high end MacBook Pros. This latest offering screws both of them. The missing FireWire cripples these machines and makes them just a hunk of useless metal for anyone in media or music. No high speed connectivity replacement is provided or possible, no express slot to upgrade them. They're completely useless for the digital lifestyle and digital creators that Apple promotes.

Some professionals, especially professional wannabe's, only have one nice machine. If it's a laptop, then of course you get the MacBook Pro. Otherwise for heavy lifting, you get the big iron of the Mac Pro. For a second machine, you economize. Now, there's no way to do that now, other than to buy old technology.

If you have a pro desktop machine, you want an inexpensive machine to capture video on the road, or work with music files, or other media. Apple's strong point has always been media. Their machines have always been fully capable for media access, not stripped down. Even if you were a media wannabe, you bought Apple. These machines are intentionally crippled, useless computers. It's a shame Jon Ives design expertise was wasted on them. They're not for the digital lifestyle or digital creators.

I suggest avoiding MacBooks like the plague. Maybe Apple will return to building fully capable machines for the rest of us, rather than building them for the marketing department.

I've had Macintoshes since 1984. This is the first time I've felt the company really let us down.
post #567 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarvasri View Post

It's clear that these latest MacBooks were built by the marketing department.
They were purposely crippled.

Many professionals don't need a high end MacBook Pro for travel. Many wannabe's can't afford high end MacBook Pros. This latest offering screws both of them. The missing FireWire cripples these machines and makes them just a hunk of useless metal for anyone in media or music. No high speed connectivity replacement is provided or possible, no express slot to upgrade them. They're completely useless for the digital lifestyle and digital creators that Apple promotes.

Some professionals, especially professional wannabe's, only have one nice machine. If it's a laptop, then of course you get the MacBook Pro. Otherwise for heavy lifting, you get the big iron of the Mac Pro. For a second machine, you economize. Now, there's no way to do that now, other than to buy old technology.

If you have a pro desktop machine, you want an inexpensive machine to capture video on the road, or work with music files, or other media. Apple's strong point has always been media. Their machines have always been fully capable for media access, not stripped down. Even if you were a media wannabe, you bought Apple. These machines are intentionally crippled, useless computers. It's a shame Jon Ives design expertise was wasted on them. They're not for the digital lifestyle or digital creators.

I suggest avoiding MacBooks like the plague. Maybe Apple will return to building fully capable machines for the rest of us, rather than building them for the marketing department.

I've had Macintoshes since 1984. This is the first time I've felt the company really let us down.

Bingo! The original MacBooks were too popular and that popularity cut into MacBook Pro sales. Actual Pro's were buying MacBook instead of MacBook Pro's. That is why FireWire was removed. Pure greed on Apple's part forcing people to buy a more expensive (=higher profit margin) computer.

I think they truly underestimated the backlash from consumer and prosumers over this...
post #568 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave K. View Post

Bingo! The original MacBooks were too popular and popularity cut into MacBook Pro sales. Actual Pro's were buying MacBook instead of MacBook Pro's. That is why FireWire was removed. Pure greed on Apple's part.

I think they truly underestimated the backlash from consumer and prosumers over this...

I don't see the removable of FW400 as a valid argument as it is a dead end port interface, but I do see the decision to not add FW800 to the MB after removing FW400 (as well as the decision to have never included FW800 on a single low-end Mac notebook) as a marketing decision to push prosumers to the MBP.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #569 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

as it is a dead end port interface

Perhaps you have a point... From the FireWire Depot website:

NOTICE: After almost 9 years of providing service and innovative products, FireWire Depot will be closing operations at the end of Sept 2008.

http://www.fwdepot.com/thestore/default.php
post #570 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave K. View Post

Perhaps you have a point... From the FireWire Depot website:

NOTICE: After almost 9 years of providing service and innovative products, FireWire Depot will be closing operations at the end of Sept 2008.

http://www.fwdepot.com/thestore/default.php

What I want to know is why didn't or couldn't Apple make FW800 use the same port interface as FW400. FW800 and FW3200 use backwards compatible ports that don't require an physical adapter, and all 3 USB standards use the same port interface. Was this a gaffe on Apple's part by not looking far enough ahead or was the redesign of the interface for FW800 a marketing call?
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #571 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottkrk View Post

Ok I will have a go at explaining 'how apple is taking us in the right direction'
  • Serial port and ADB replaced with USB. I was upset at having to replace an ADB dongle and a serial MIDI interface but USB has given Mac owners so many periphral options.
  • Nubus and AGP replaced with PCI/PCIx/PCI express again more options for Mac Owners.
  • 6800 to G3/4/5 to intel 486. I can now run windows if I have to with bootcamp or fusion/parallels.
  • Mac OS9 to unix based OS X again more users to the Mac

I think all these moves, although painful in small increments, has brought us 'the mac community' in the right direction, and this is vindicated by the growing number of mac users in our community. I guess my 'blind faith' is because recently Apple has been executing quite well on a simple strategy. Support and use standards thus not marginalising the platform but differentiate and add value where you can. Or put more simply don't create barriers unless they are to your advantage.

Which brings me to our beloved Firewire. I will miss firewire when it is gone but it has served its purpose. Firewire was an important enabling technology in the past for the iPod, DV cameras, external drives, and audio interfaces.

iPods have used USB2 for years, DV cameras are being replaced with HD cameras which use USB2 (I recently bought the Sony HDR SR12 which only has USB2), external drives as you rightly pointed out are better served by esata. Which leaves the audio interfaces which are moving to USB2 for the low end and ExpressCard/34 for the high end.

As I said in my original email I am waiting until next year to update, from what I read Nehalem should be worth waiting and I am hoping Snow Leopard could bring some features in the home server/network space. I agree with you that the RME Fireface800 is a great product but I am not holding my breath that Firewire will be around this time next year, even on the MBP. I would prefer an esata port for a quick/cheap external drive and leave the ExpressCard/34 slot free for a fast low latency audio interface/external DSP and perhaps USB3 will be ready.

All these painful little steps has lowered the cost of being a mac user and we should be in a position to benefit from multi-core Nehalem, a lot more than say our Win32 cousins....

What struck me about your post is that it seemed to me that you didn't finish your thought. You are correct that when Apple made technology changes in the past it was so that there could be further "enabling" for the user to benefit from. Not always from something that was clearly superior but sometimes simply for the sake of commonality with other computer technologies.

What enabling or increased commonality has taken place by removal of FireWire, a technology that many will vouch for it's superior capability in key segments that Apple has catered to (including the home movie-making segment)? I don't see any as we've already had USB for as long as anyone. Almost overnight, the percentage of Windows machines being bought that have the capability of using FireWire (either directly or via ExpressCard) has probably become higher than the percentage of Macs with FireWire capability being bought. How ironic is that considering it was Apple that championed the FW in the first place?
post #572 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

What I want to know is why didn't or couldn't Apple make FW800 use the same port interface as FW400. FW800 and FW3200 use backwards compatible ports that don't require an physical adapter, and all 3 USB standards use the same port interface. Was this a gaffe on Apple's part by not looking far enough ahead or was the redesign of the interface for FW800 a marketing call?

Marketing.
post #573 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

hilarious
they're using a macbook pro in the photo
errrr..... are u sure the text matches the photo ???

The picture isn't the point. I posted the picture to show the device.

If you look at the text below the picture the company says they will support the device in USB for the new MacBook. Counter to people complaining USB is no good for audio.
post #574 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post

What enabling or increased commonality has taken place by removal of FireWire, a technology that many will vouch for it's superior capability in key segments that Apple has catered to (including the home movie-making segment)? I don't see any as we've already had USB for as long as anyone. Almost overnight, the percentage of Windows machines being bought that have the capability of using FireWire (either directly or via ExpressCard) has probably become higher than the percentage of Macs with FireWire capability being bought. How ironic is that considering it was Apple that championed the FW in the first place?

You are overstating to make your point. Many Windows machines have the option of FireWire, but extremely few people take that option.

So few people use FireWire to the point of where devices that used to be FireWire only are offering a USB only option.
post #575 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Why the lies?

The entry level for a Mac Pro is $2299 http://store.apple.com/us_smb_78313/...A?mco=NzQ3Njkz

If you BTO it, sure. But starting retail price for the in-store model is $2799.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

and, $999 for a Macbook to connect your DV camera.

How long you think Apple's going to keep one of the old white plastic MacBooks in their product lineup? I give it 6-8 months; then that expensive unibody case will have become more affordable and they'll bring the price back down to $1099, killing the white plastic MacBook and with it any Mac laptop with Firewire for under two grand.
post #576 of 1657
Yep, as a recent Mac usert I will dump my latest camcorder that is only 16months old and also throw away my external hard drive and buy everything new, WOW fantastic solution. Most families have a camcorder that uses firewire so I do not know where you get the idea that most pc users dont use firewire. Actually I would bet that the opposite of what you said is true. . How else would you pass your DV to a PC? I am realy angry about this because I wanted to fully migrate to Mac OS (no im not rich so cant afford a Macbook pro and no I do not want the plastic option.
1 Macbook Sale lost here...


Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

You are overstating to make your point. Many Windows machines have the option of FireWire, but extremely few people take that option.

So few people use FireWire to the point of where devices that used to be FireWire only are offering a USB only option.
post #577 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

If you BTO it, sure. But starting retail price for the in-store model is $2799.

Take a closer look at the Apple Store: http://store.apple.com/us_smb_78313/...A?mco=NzQ3Njkz There is one for $500 less, i.e., $2,799 - $500 = $2,299.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

How long you think Apple's going to keep one of the old white plastic MacBooks in their product lineup? I give it 6-8 months; then that expensive unibody case will have become more affordable and they'll bring the price back down to $1099, killing the white plastic MacBook and with it any Mac laptop with Firewire for under two grand.

How does that change the fact that you can still spend less than $2000 (and significantly at that) to connect your DV camera.
post #578 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonard View Post

5.) You can boot a Macbook using USB apparently. A few users on this board have tried it. This is new to me, but it would replace TDM.

Not completely, I don't think. A year ago I accidentally deleted some files and called in a consultant to restore them. He hooked up his MacBook to my Mini over Firewire and used his diagnostic and data-recovery software to do the job (I don't know how).

If there were no Firewire, he'd have had to load his software onto my machine, which he couldn't legally do. And the act of loading his software would have over-written some disk space that possibly included the files I was trying to recover. Alternatively, he could have removed my disk and accessed it somehow, but that would have been trickier and lengthier.

Maybe there's some smoother way of doing this that I'm unaware of; but if not, then being able to boot without Firewire doesn't solve all the problems.
post #579 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by nanto View Post

Yep, as a recent Mac usert I will dump my latest camcorder that is only 16months old and also throw away my external hard drive and buy everything new, WOW fantastic solution. Most families have a camcorder that uses firewire so I do not know where you get the idea that most pc users dont use firewire. Actually I would bet that the opposite of what you said is true. . How else would you pass your DV to a PC? I am realy angry about this because I wanted to fully migrate to Mac OS (no im not rich so cant afford a Macbook pro and no I do not want the plastic option.
1 Macbook Sale lost here...

I don't understand (and I'm not trying to rile you here)... if you're a recent Mac convert (welcome!), what Mac are you using without FireWire? Do you need a new MacBook for video work? (I know it would be great to HAVE one, but do you NEED one?) If you have a 16-month old camcorder, it probably uses DV tape, and you can get tons of tape for little or no money, so you can keep shooting outside or when traveling. You don't have to carry a computer at all, if you don't want, but a new MacBook would be nice for watching DVDs, email, GPS and mapping software, the internet. Then you come home, hook the camcorder up to your old Mac with FW, and digitize the tape. It's a 1:1 transfer process (meaning one minute of tape-based recording takes one minute to transfer to hard disk) and can be done on any old computer. I've been doing it since G3s and G4s, so a newer, faster Intel processor and better video card won't make it go any faster. Then you copy your video file by Ethernet or whatever to your MacBook if it has better performance for iMovie or FCP Express.

The external HD is more of a problem, but moving the drive mechanism to a case that has both ports or just USB will cost about $25, and you still have the old one for use as well -- it didn't go bad or even become obsolete just because the new MacBook can't use it.

As for billions of PCs in the world, well, most of those are sold to companies for business use, and none of those have FireWire. The consumer models sold sometimes have it as an option, but I'd wager the majority of people don't use it. Even people with a DV cam with FireWire and a PC with FireWire often never connect the two -- making movies is work and takes time. The lastest rage of Optical Disk-based cams or solid state media is removing the need for any port other than USB for the YouTubers. I doubt that "most families have a camcorder that uses FireWire" as you claim, and I'm sure the percentage of families that have: 1) a cam with FireWire, AND 2) a laptop computer with FireWire, AND --this is important-- 3) actually use the two together are a very small minority of the actual buying market seeking a new compact laptop computer.

The biggest limitation of no FireWire is no Target Disk mode, but even that is no good without a second Mac, so you're right back to my original notes on capturing video.

All that said, I feel your pain, and suggest you wait until tests on Barefeats.com have shown what the performance is like on the new macBooks over the old, and probably by then the new MBPs will be in the Apple store as refurbs at a good price point, or maybe if we're lucky, Apple will put FW back in the MacBook (I think this is unlikely) or maybe Apple will decide there's a market for 13" MBPs with ExpressCard slot that can be all things to all people, even me with my God-awful expensive $800 Sony SxS ExpressCard media cards that my camcorder uses instead of video tape. Once again, welcome to the world of Mac users -- it's great, but not perfect, and things change relatively fast. Owning a Mac is a lot like HD television: once you buy into it, it keeps taking more of your money and spoils you for anything else.
post #580 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post

the MacBook offers nothing at all while approaching the price of a Lenovo W500 when fully equipped.

I bought my first iMac years ago for the soul purpose of connecting my video camera via FW. So I understand the need for the feature and I find it hard to believe that a tech company like Apple can't come up with a way to add this to the Macbook line.

That said I would in no way compare a Lenovo badged machine to an Apple or even an older IBM Thinkpad. The quality is just not there no matter what features it may have. I bought a Lenovo T61 a few months back when my IBM T42p needed to be serviced. The Lenovo machine isn't junk, but it is no where near as well constructed as the IBM machine and since I got back the T42p I use that the most. My next laptop will certainly be a MBA or another MBP (we have 2 MBP's in the house and they are hands down better machines then even my IBM T42p).
post #581 of 1657
Zanshin

You are simply wrong on so many levels. The advantages of FW have been well articulated over the years. USB architecturally cannot even do Target Disk Mode which should tell you what a dumb connection it is to default to.

I will NEVER buy a Macbook without FW or some suprior form of connectivity. I got to thinking about it last night and frankly I don't lose out by buying a PC laptop all that much.

iPod...works as well on a PC
iPhone- works fine on a PC with MobileMe access
iTunes- fine

There's nothing really forcing me to use a Mac when I'm on the road.

I want a 13.3/14.1 Nehalem with expansion and FW. On the PC side this will be easy to find. We often say that "voting with your dollars and that's exactly what I'm going to do"

I'll gladly purchase an iMac provided FW is still there.
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
post #582 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarvasri View Post

It's clear that these latest MacBooks were built by the marketing department.
They were purposely crippled.

Many professionals don't need a high end MacBook Pro for travel. Many wannabe's can't afford high end MacBook Pros. This latest offering screws both of them. The missing FireWire cripples these machines and makes them just a hunk of useless metal for anyone in media or music. No high speed connectivity replacement is provided or possible, no express slot to upgrade them. They're completely useless for the digital lifestyle and digital creators that Apple promotes.

Some professionals, especially professional wannabe's, only have one nice machine. If it's a laptop, then of course you get the MacBook Pro. Otherwise for heavy lifting, you get the big iron of the Mac Pro. For a second machine, you economize. Now, there's no way to do that now, other than to buy old technology.

If you have a pro desktop machine, you want an inexpensive machine to capture video on the road, or work with music files, or other media. Apple's strong point has always been media. Their machines have always been fully capable for media access, not stripped down. Even if you were a media wannabe, you bought Apple. These machines are intentionally crippled, useless computers. It's a shame Jon Ives design expertise was wasted on them. They're not for the digital lifestyle or digital creators.

I suggest avoiding MacBooks like the plague. Maybe Apple will return to building fully capable machines for the rest of us, rather than building them for the marketing department.

I've had Macintoshes since 1984. This is the first time I've felt the company really let us down.

Oh please! spare us. You guys with your statements of "purposely crippled", are a joke.

You have absolutely NO idea of what Apple's thinking in these matters are. None!

You want to think that.
post #583 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Oh please! spare us. You guys with your statements of "purposely crippled", are a joke.

You have absolutely NO idea of what Apple's thinking in these matters are. None!

You want to think that.

I tend to agree Melgross. As much as I dislike the configuration of these laptops I look at the internals and I've yet to see a schematic showing native FW support in the nvidia chipset. I think FW was a casualty of the design process and Apple is simply attempting to justify it.

Frankly I don't see why Apple and other companies just don't add an ExpressCard 34 slot and then sell different breakout boxes with 4 USB and a Firewire port or 2 FW and 2 USB (I'm not sure if bandwidth permits IRC EC34 is 250MBps bandwidth)
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
post #584 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

I tend to agree Melgross. As much as I dislike the configuration of these laptops I look at the internals and I've yet to see a schematic showing native FW support in the nvidia chipset. I think FW was a casualty of the design process and Apple is simply attempting to justify it.

Frankly I don't see why Apple and other companies just don't add an ExpressCard 34 slot and then sell different breakout boxes with 4 USB and a Firewire port or 2 FW and 2 USB (I'm not sure if bandwidth permits IRC EC34 is 250MBps bandwidth)

Expresscard is a PCIe x1 lane + a USB port in one. A lot of Expresscard devices- like card readers and wireless cards- only use the USB connection.

But I don't think there's room for an Expresscard slot on the 13" Macbook. That thing's packed pretty tight.
post #585 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

I tend to agree Melgross. As much as I dislike the configuration of these laptops I look at the internals and I've yet to see a schematic showing native FW support in the nvidia chipset. I think FW was a casualty of the design process and Apple is simply attempting to justify it.

Frankly I don't see why Apple and other companies just don't add an ExpressCard 34 slot and then sell different breakout boxes with 4 USB and a Firewire port or 2 FW and 2 USB (I'm not sure if bandwidth permits IRC EC34 is 250MBps bandwidth)

There are a lot of things that I would like Apple to do. I think that they could have figured out a way to get ExpressCard 34 into the machine. They just don't think it's important for these models. I don't agree. But, it's a cost and size thing.

We're going through this sort of thing on the Canon 5D mkII thread on the FredMiranda photo site (101 pages so far, and going strong!).

The camera body lists for $2,700, as opposed for Canon's more "pro" bodies, but there are some people there who think Canon is deliberately omitting many features from this camera that exists on those much more expensive models.

They just don't seem to understand that the more of those features that make it into the less expensive model, the more expensive it becomes, the larger it becomes, and the heavier it becomes.

With some people, logic is not their strong point.

The difference in size between a 15.4" machine and a 13.3" machine should tell them that there is just more room inside, and at the edges, but they don't want to hear that.
post #586 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post

Expresscard is a PCIe x1 lane + a USB port in one. A lot of Expresscard devices- like card readers and wireless cards- only use the USB connection.

But I don't think there's room for an Expresscard slot on the 13" Macbook. That thing's packed pretty tight.

Sorry FPN ..I actually meant add the ExpressCard slot in lieu of the current USB ports. I'd love to have a laptop that was nigh endlessly configurable do to exchangable cards with different I/O options. Apple's kind of missing the boat on this by ignoring ExpressCard which soon will be on version 2.0 doubling the speed and supporting SuperSpeed USB (3.0)

http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/03/e...er-speeds-soon


Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

There are a lot of things that I would like Apple to do. I think that they could have figured out a way to get ExpressCard 34 into the machine. They just don't think it's important for these models. I don't agree. But, it's a cost and size thing.

We're going through this sort of thing on the Canon 5D mkII thread on the FredMiranda photo site (101 pages so far, and going strong!).

The camera body lists for $2,700, as opposed for Canon's more "pro" bodies, but there are some people there who think Canon is deliberately omitting many features from this camera that exists on those much more expensive models.

They just don't seem to understand that the more of those features that make it into the less expensive model, the more expensive it becomes, the larger it becomes, and the heavier it becomes.

With some people, logic is not their strong point.

The difference in size between a 15.4" machine and a 13.3" machine should tell them that there is just more room inside, and at the edges, but they don't want to hear that.

Exactly...you can take a look at the 13" Macbooks and realize what a tight fit it is. But when space is an issue Apple needs to be looking at ways of reducing port footprint. I think ExpressCard slots and breakout cables provide functionality, extensibility and longevity if at the expense of aesthetics. I know ..I know..fat chance I see this happen with Apple soon. I'm just daring to dream.
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
post #587 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Sorry FPN ..I actually meant add the ExpressCard slot in lieu of the current USB ports. I'd love to have a laptop that was nigh endlessly configurable do to exchangable cards with different I/O options. Apple's kind of missing the boat on this by ignoring ExpressCard which soon will be on version 2.0 doubling the speed and supporting SuperSpeed USB (3.0)

http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/03/e...er-speeds-soon




Exactly...you can take a look at the 13" Macbooks and realize what a tight fit it is. But when space is an issue Apple needs to be looking at ways of reducing port footprint. I think ExpressCard slots and breakout cables provide functionality, extensibility and longevity if at the expense of aesthetics. I know ..I know..fat chance I see this happen with Apple soon. I'm just daring to dream.

I have to sigh over this—Sigh!

Yes, Apple sometimes does things that are beyond understanding.

I've been looking at the breakdowns of the new machines, and they are tight indeed.

But that is also Apple's choice.

I don't think Apple limits what the Macbook can have inside by trying to limit it to less than what the pro has, even though some people here think that.

What I think they do is to look at what they think the market is. Then then apply their famous KISS rules.

After they make it as small and as light as they think they can, they fit in what they think is needed (which doesn't always mean what is DESIRED).

When they design the pro models, they ADD to what the consumer lines have, but again, only what they think is NEEDED.

Sometimes they screw up. Every company screws up, and Apple is surely no exception.

Lacking FW, the new MB's may be a screwup. They decided that certain features were more important than others. They could have added a FW chip to the machine. The Nvidia chip does not HAVE to support it directly, but cost and space got in the way of that.

What's more important to the vast majority of people owning Macbooks, a fast video subsystem (when compared to older models) or a FW 400 port?
post #588 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Did you check out the cost of a Sony Vaio with Blu Ray? Please include specs.

Out of curiosity, taking a quick look at SonyStyle.com I see 14 different models that come with a Blu-Ray drive as standard starting at under $1500.


$1449 gets you...

Intel® Core™2 Duo Processor P8600 (2.40GHz, 3MB L2 Cache) 16.4" XBRITE-ECO™ widescreen LCD, 4GB RAM, 250GB Hard Drive, Blu-ray Disc™ playback, ATI™ graphics with 512MB vRAM, webcam, Bluetooth®, HDMI ™ out and titanium gray exterior


$1599 gets you...

Intel® Core™ 2 Duo Processor T8300 (2.40 GHz, 3MB L2 Cache) 17" widescreen LCD display, 3GB RAM, 400GB hard drive (200GBx2), NVIDIA® graphics, Blu-ray Disc™ optical drive, HDMI output


$1849 gets you...

Intel® Core™2 Duo Processor (2.40GHz, 3MB L2 Cache) 16.4" XBRITE-FullHD™ widescreen LCD, 4GB RAM, 500GB Hard Drive, Blu-ray Disc™ playback, ATI™ graphics with 512MB vRAM, webcam, Bluetooth®, HDMI ™ out.


Models under $2000 play back Blu-Ray media. Models above $2000 record to Blu-Ray media as well. HDMI output is standard.

     197619842014  

     Where were you when the hammer flew?  

 

MacBook Pro Retina, 13", 2.5 GHz, 8 GB RAM, 256 GB SSD

iPhone 5s • iPad mini Retina • Chromebook Pixel • Nexus 7

Reply

     197619842014  

     Where were you when the hammer flew?  

 

MacBook Pro Retina, 13", 2.5 GHz, 8 GB RAM, 256 GB SSD

iPhone 5s • iPad mini Retina • Chromebook Pixel • Nexus 7

Reply
post #589 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1984 View Post

Out of curiosity, taking a quick look at SonyStyle.com I see 14 different models that come with a Blu-Ray drive as standard starting at under $1500.


$1449 gets you...

Intel® Core2 Duo Processor P8600 (2.40GHz, 3MB L2 Cache) 16.4" XBRITE-ECO widescreen LCD, 4GB RAM, 250GB Hard Drive, Blu-ray Disc playback, ATI graphics with 512MB vRAM, webcam, Bluetooth®, HDMI out and titanium gray exterior


$1599 gets you...

Intel® Core 2 Duo Processor T8300 (2.40 GHz, 3MB L2 Cache) 17" widescreen LCD display, 3GB RAM, 400GB hard drive (200GBx2), NVIDIA® graphics, Blu-ray Disc optical drive, HDMI output


$1849 gets you...

Intel® Core2 Duo Processor (2.40GHz, 3MB L2 Cache) 16.4" XBRITE-FullHD widescreen LCD, 4GB RAM, 500GB Hard Drive, Blu-ray Disc playback, ATI graphics with 512MB vRAM, webcam, Bluetooth®, HDMI out.


Models under $2000 play back Blu-Ray media. Models above $2000 record to Blu-Ray media as well. HDMI output is standard.

We are talking about Macbooks 13", Blu-Ray writers/readers.

Couldn't find a laptop under $3000 with Blu-Ray writer ($500) http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...tegoryId=16154

Next time send links.
post #590 of 1657
Thanks for your answer zanshin… i tried to keep my answer short so did not explain why I need a Firewire port.

Yes I am a recent convert bought an Imac.

1)\tI travel a lot (work and pleasure) and take a laptop everywhere I go and always connect my, not so old, camcorder to see what I taped and transfer photos from my digicam to it.
2)\tI have my Imac but use my Toshiba laptop mostly when I´m at home. I also encode video on it.
3)\tI have my 2 external drives with firewire. (bought firewire because I read that is was a better connection) Yes I know I can buy a new housing for the hard drive with USB but everything takes time and money.
4)\tI can not believe that a computer of this quality does not have a simple firewire port or express card slot or sdcard reader when most laptops offer all of this for half the price. I could forgive the slots but also not having firewire makes one loose a lot of connectivity options.
5)\tHD cams are not a solution. Anything that moves will eventually fail. DV is still offering better quality and better storage. Always will be.
6)\tI have no experience with target Disk mode but understand that it works well so I can understand why you will miss it.


Truly this is a “stupid” and avoidable inconvenience that will probably make me buy another Toshiba or Sony that can read and write BD have a express slot, read SD etc and with that horrible Vista OS that I truly hate. I am really sad because I had my heart on one of these Macbooks. I truly hope they reconsider and give us other connectivity options. If they do this I will be buying one.
post #591 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

With some people, logic is not their strong point.

The difference in size between a 15.4" machine and a 13.3" machine should tell them that there is just more room inside, and at the edges, but they don't want to hear that.

As I have mentioned numerous times, the smaller 12" PowerBook - which I was happy to own - had all the current MacBook ports.
And it had a modem port and a Firewire port.

Lack of space cannot possibly be an excuse.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
post #592 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

As I have mentioned numerous times, the smaller 12" PowerBook - which I was happy to own - had all the current MacBook ports.
And it had a modem port and a Firewire port.

Lack of space cannot possibly be an excuse.

The 12" PB has a thicker case that isn't tapered on the edges like the new MB.
post #593 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by nanto View Post

Yep, as a recent Mac usert I will dump my latest camcorder that is only 16months old and also throw away my external hard drive and buy everything new, WOW fantastic solution. Most families have a camcorder that uses firewire so I do not know where you get the idea that most pc users dont use firewire. Actually I would bet that the opposite of what you said is true. . How else would you pass your DV to a PC? I am realy angry about this because I wanted to fully migrate to Mac OS (no im not rich so cant afford a Macbook pro and no I do not want the plastic option.
1 Macbook Sale lost here...

All one needs to do is look at the current consumer video cameras. Most new cameras offer a USB port along with FireWire and some are beginning to offer USB only.

That is how we know most PC users don't use FireWire. Their would be little use in the camera manufacturer spending money for the extra USB license if it wasn't needed.
post #594 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

As I have mentioned numerous times, the smaller 12" PowerBook - which I was happy to own - had all the current MacBook ports.
And it had a modem port and a Firewire port.

Lack of space cannot possibly be an excuse.

It depends I think. The 12" Powerbook had a battery really small compared to the new MB battery. Apple could cut some battery size in the MB in favor of connectivity, but this would harm the power autonomy of the machine. It is obviously a matter of priorities and decision.
post #595 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1984 View Post

Out of curiosity, taking a quick look at SonyStyle.com I see 14 different models that come with a Blu-Ray drive as standard starting at under $1500.

Models under $2000 play back Blu-Ray media. Models above $2000 record to Blu-Ray media as well. HDMI output is standard.

Well its Sony. Blu-ray is their format. They want people to adopt it so they make lots of money on licensing.
post #596 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

We are talking about Macbooks 13", Blu-Ray writers/readers.

Couldn't find a laptop under $3000 with Blu-Ray writer ($500) http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...tegoryId=16154

Next time send links.

The VAIO Z can be configured with BD recording for $2799. It's the model I'm considering since Apple doesn't want my money anymore. That said, the Z is more akin to a Macbook Pro (two graphics cards, full expansion) and a high res 1600x900 screen. It is nearly a full pound lighter than the MacBook thanks to carbon fiber construction. The most direct competition for the MacBook is the VAIO SR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Well its Sony. Blu-ray is their format. They want people to adopt it so they make lots of money on licensing.

You realize that Apple is a big member of the BluRay consortium, right?
post #597 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The 12" PB has a thicker case that isn't tapered on the edges like the new MB.

True. But the majority of the difference is in the height (3cm for the 12", 2.41cm of the 13.3".)
I don't think the logic board was the reason for the difference in height. Usually, it's the DVD and Battery that make the difference there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB View Post

It depends I think. The 12" Powerbook had a battery really small compared to the new MB battery. Apple could cut some battery size in the MB in favor of connectivity, but this would harm the power autonomy of the machine. It is obviously a matter of priorities and decision.

This is likely one of the biggest reasons. As Murch said, the NVidia chip probably doesn't come with FW built in, and so the decision was made to leave it out and make more room for a bigger battery.

In my view (and obviously many, many others) this was a bad decision. The 12" PowerBook had decent battery life and so would have the MacBook, even if there was a slight drop in battery life.

On the other hand, the 'extra' battery we've gained has meant the loss of Target Disk Mode, outdated fairly new (and better performing) peripherals, sub-par Time Machine performance and has destabilized the entire future of Firewire on the Mac.

Who made this decision, and has he been fired yet?
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
post #598 of 1657
I think the biggest misconception about the Macbook is that it's a "Consumer product". It's not a consumer product! It's a really competent platform, stable, high quality screen, solid design, great performance, runs a stable OS and uses quality components.
The only thing Consumer about this product is actually the lack of Firewire. The rest is just pure and sheer top of the line.

Apple could actually introduce another notebook mimicking the MacBook Air specs and ports and call it a consumer product. That would be more like it.
post #599 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by stonefree View Post

This was a typical Prince McLean Apple shill article attempting to rationalize Apple's bad decisions. He is like an Apple version of Thurott, only worse. Here's what wrong-

He says there are numerous alternatives to Target Disk Mode- then neglects to mention they don't work if the Target computer isn't bootable, which is where TDM really comes in handy.

While I agree with your criticism, I don't see Target Disk Mode as useful as others seem to think. If the machine is not bootable merely because the OS is corrupted then you can use a linux live disc to take data off of the drive. Furthermore, if the only thing stopping the machine from booting is a logical error in partition table you can boot off a Disc Warrior disc and repair the errors and MacOS magically comes back from the dead. For data transfer off of machines that can't boot I have used linux discs on several Intel Macs without issue so TDM isn't necessary in this circumstance either. Any real tech and even a lot of wannabe techs are going to have an external DVD drive so even if the internal drive is FUBAR you can still boot.

About the only circumstance where TDM would really help in troubleshooting is if the motherboard still could read the HDD, the HDD wasn't physically damaged and for whatever reason no video output could be outputed out of the Mac. Furthermore, merely because the machine can boot doesn't mean TDM works properly. I was once diagnosing a G4 PowerMac and I couldn't read anything off the HDD through TDM. I pulled the HDD connected it up through a USB to ATA adapter and all the data was still there.

TDM is a slightly easier means of data migration from an old Mac to a new Mac, but as a troubleshooting tool it is a bit overrated. Contrary to what you and others have made it out to be it isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread. It is useful in a few select cases where you otherwise might have to pull the HDD, but it hardly is as big loss as people make it out to be. I am not saying I wouldn't miss the loss of the feature, but I don't see it as a huge loss.

Quote:
He talks about how FW isn't important in hard drives with the emergence of eSATA. Too bad not a single Mac includes eSATA ports.

Just a thought, but maybe Apple should have put an eSATA port on both the MB and the MBP. It isn't a stretch of the imagination to say that there are more devices with eSATA then there are FW. There are without a doubt millions of external hard drives out there with eSATA in the hands of customers. Performance wise, eSATA makes FW400 obsolete for external storage. Furthermore, Apple already filed a patent for something that resembles target disk mode for eSATA. If they included eSATA on their computers, the TDM argument for FW would vanish. The only reason AFAIK Apple needs to retain FW anything is for AV equipment that is FW only.

Quote:
Then he says it was because of a lack of space (total BS) and as a neccessary cost cutting measure. They raised the price $200 but can't afford the extra dollar or two it would add to their cost? Apple can surely make up for it with all the $30 Display Port adapters they're forcing people with external monitors to buy.

I will wholeheartedly agree that Apple's arguments on why they excluded it on the MB seem flimsy. The chipset on the MB no doubt supports FW400/800 so the only cost would be the connector (~$1) and another hole in the chassis(<$1). The profit margin on the MB is great enough that if the inclusion of the port only sold 5% more MBs it would more than make up for the ~$1 of additional cost per MB. I seriously doubt anyone would not buy the MB because Apple included something they would use. I sold computers for a while and realize that plenty of average end users buy computers with all sorts of features that they never use. Provided that the inclusion has a positive return on investment Apple should include it.

Quote:
In Apple's view, you're either Suzy Homemaker who uses a computer to check her Myspace page, build iTunes playlists, and transfer pics of her kids soccer games or you're an in demand professional with a personal assistant, a six figure budget and a view of the skyline from your office. There are TONS of us in between that.

I don't think Apple is ignorant, I just think that they purposely try to push their users into more profitable models. Within reason every companies does this, but Apple just seems to be more aggressive about pushing users into higher end models by selling stripped down models.
post #600 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by OriginalMacRat View Post

Steve Jobs has finally lost it. (Well, actually he's been a bit loopy for the past year.)

Time for him to go.

Steve Jobs is such an arrogant and cocky CEO! He did not even investigate the Camcorder market and affronts apple's loyal customers with such a cheap answer. I'm surprised, that he didn't close his e-mail with the famous 2 words f... you.

Really, it's time to go, mr. jobs. We won't cry!!!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Current Mac Hardware
AppleInsider › Forums › Mac Hardware › Current Mac Hardware › Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire