or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Mac Hardware › Current Mac Hardware › Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire - Page 17

post #641 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Here's a challenge. Provide with specs and supported with links a comparable laptop. Dare you!

Can give you tons of links. No two laptops are the same most are not perfect but all offer more connectivity than the latest Macbook. The price in euros for a macbook 2,4 is 1499 at this price I can find you more choice but I wanted to get you one that is cheaper.
http://www.vobis.pt/ProductDetail.as...5|4138|114|&c=
http://www.vobis.pt/ProductDetail.as...5|4138|114|&c=
http://www.fnac.pt/pt/Catalog/Detail...ate%20Portatil

Something from your side of the Atlantic and somthing from Asia but from a local shop, didn´t even go searching on the internet.

There are new laptops coming out in the next months that will be even better with newer graphics even using the PC version of the Macbook integrated card (Geforce 9400M G)
post #642 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

So what are you using now?

at home mac pro (eight core 2.88 early 2008) attached to either

MOTU 8 Pre
Phonic Helix 24
Edirol FA-101

and on the go (either recording at friends etc or live gigs) Macbook core duo 2006 with
any of those (although mostly the FA-101 unless with a full band)

...only the Macbook is struggling with the fan running full blast (which leaks into the recordings - depending on what it is i'm recording)

which is why i wanted an upgraded macbook so it could handle the load without overheating.
post #643 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post

I've read the arguments from the "you don't need FireWire" camp and have tried to accept them at face value. However, there are two questions that I have for said persons and I would really like to know your answers:

1) If FireWire is "obsolete" today, why wasn't it obsolete two or more years ago when Apple was still promoting its virtues? It seems nothing really has changed in that time frame that would now suddenly cause FireWire to be obsolete.

2) If FireWire really is obsolete, why did Apple expend the effort to intentionally build it into the new-from-the-ground-up MacBook Pro, especially considering there is no native support on the nVidia chipset?

Well said. To add to your comments.

If FireWire is obsolete technology than why does every single external hard drive sold in Apple retail stores still have this obsolete port on them (just checked the Buffalo, NY store)? Its not a obsolete technology by any stretch...
post #644 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

at home mac pro (eight core 2.88 early 2008) attached to either

MOTU 8 Pre
Phonic Helix 24
Edirol FA-101

and on the go (either recording at friends etc or live gigs) Macbook core duo 2006 with
any of those (although mostly the FA-101 unless with a full band)

...only the Macbook is struggling with the fan running full blast (which leaks into the recordings - depending on what it is i'm recording)

which is why i wanted an upgraded macbook so it could handle the load without overheating.

Fix the fan. Or as my lab guys suggest, cash in the Mac Pro and Macbook and get a new fully loaded Macbook Pro. As one of them suggested, what have you got connected to the Macbook when the fan runs full blast. They think the add-ons and perhaps the software you are running is killing the processor. But then, last year I offered to give them a raise over getting new Macs. Wives lost.
post #645 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by nanto View Post

Can give you tons of links. No two laptops are the same most are not perfect but all offer more connectivity than the latest Macbook. The price in euros for a macbook 2,4 is 1499 at this price I can find you more choice but I wanted to get you one that is cheaper.
http://www.vobis.pt/ProductDetail.as...5|4138|114|&c=
http://www.vobis.pt/ProductDetail.as...5|4138|114|&c=
http://www.fnac.pt/pt/Catalog/Detail...ate%20Portatil

Something from your side of the Atlantic and somthing from Asia but from a local shop, didn´t even go searching on the internet.

There are new laptops coming out in the next months that will be even better with newer graphics even using the PC version of the Macbook integrated card (Geforce 9400M G)

Thank you Nanto. Now anybody else that needs FireWire and a Blu-Ray player have a choice. Here are the comparative links. Just click on the photo. http://www.vobis.pt/CheckOut.aspx

Thanks for the update. More choices. Keep it up. Hope this solves everybody's concern. Does mine.
post #646 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave K. View Post

Well said. To add to your comments.

If FireWire is obsolete technology than why does every single external hard drive sold in Apple retail stores still have this obsolete port on them (just checked the Buffalo, NY store)? Its not a obsolete technology by any stretch...

Now you are in my neck of the woods. No they don't.
post #647 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post

I've read the arguments from the "you don't need FireWire" camp and have tried to accept them at face value. However, there are two questions that I have for said persons and I would really like to know your answers:

1) If FireWire is "obsolete" today, why wasn't it obsolete two or more years ago when Apple was still promoting its virtues? It seems nothing really has changed in that time frame that would now suddenly cause FireWire to be obsolete.

2) If FireWire really is obsolete, why did Apple expend the effort to intentionally build it into the new-from-the-ground-up MacBook Pro, especially considering there is no native support on the nVidia chipset?


1) Alot has changed. The consumer camcorder market is headed towards flash-memory based solutions that use USB 2.0. This has been happening the last year or two. I know Canon has specifically stated that this is the direction they are moving in. A few years ago this wasn't the case.

Also the last few years have seen MB sales increase dramatically with most (or half) of those sales coming from those new to the Mac and presumably with little use for FW as it never was in most machines on the pc side of things.

We've also seen the rise of eSata devices and we've seen FW800 get even less support in the marketplace than FW400 did. This doesn't bode well for future FW support either like FW3200.


2) Apple realizes that many professionals and serious hobbyists use FW. Hence they kept a FW800 port in their MBP line. The folks that truly need its speed will want FW800 anyway which was always a MBP feature and never a MB one.

Are some people going to be pissed? Sure. Not saying there aren't. But not like the previous generation of MBs are any slower and not like many of them can't move up to a MBP or refurb MBP. Not like there isn't a MB with FW on it still. Not like we won't see the next-gen of ports (USB3, etc) in the next year or two.
post #648 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Fix the fan. Or as my lab guys suggest, cash in the Mac Pro and Macbook and get a new fully loaded Macbook Pro. As one of them suggested, what have you got connected to the Macbook when the fan runs full blast. They think the add-ons and perhaps the software you are running is killing the processor. But then, last year I offered to give them a raise over getting new Macs. Wives lost.

yeah i did fix the fan....
have a look what came out

macbook fan cleaning

hmm no way i'm trading in the mac pro for a new macbook pro...
trade in
- 4 x firewire connections for 1 ???
- 4 x 1 TB drives for back up
- ability to run 1 x 24" + 1 x 20" monitors
- optical in/out
- 8 cores (audio is one area where parallel processing is actually used, particularly in logic)

for what ???

as far as software goes i'm using logic which is supposed to be optimised for macs
(with no plug-ins during recording)
post #649 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Knights View Post

Maybe there's some smoother way of doing this that I'm unaware of; but if not, then being able to boot without Firewire doesn't solve all the problems.

Another way is to have a bootable USB drive. Clone an internal to USB, this will have the software needed and you can boot from this to repair the internal or transfer files. This method doesn't help if you have a broken screen though.

But with the internal drive in the laptops also being very easy to remove, you could simply drop it into and external enclosure.

Target mode is handy certainly for quick transfers but there are ways round not having it.

Firewire device support is the biggest loss here I think. Target mode is another loss but not one that people should use frequently and like I say, what it achieves can be done in other ways even if they are trickier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

What's more important to the vast majority of people owning Macbooks, a fast video subsystem (when compared to older models) or a FW 400 port?

Is that the compromise that needed to be made though?

I would say what's more important FW800 or Gigabit ethernet? The answer IMO is FW800. Ethernet can be supported via a USB adaptor. By contrast you can't get the benefit of FW800 from an adaptor.

Speaking of the adaptors, does anyone have a link for a Mac compatible USB-firewire adaptor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave K

An Apple branded solution is needed here (especially if the iMac updates next month drop FireWire too).

They have plenty of room in the iMac though. If anything, they will try and drop it from the Mini if they update it so that people are persuaded into buying an iMac instead.
post #650 of 1657
it's obvious a lot of the people supporting USB only on the MB don't have a lot of experience with audio recording and things such as latency and how speed of your connections effects how many simultaneous tracks you can record at one time, etc.

i don't record anymore and aside for a couple of HDD enclosures, don't have any FW devices, but I definitely feel your pain.

and selling your serious home set up so you can have a functional mobile set up is just beyond nutz to me. sometimes, people need to upgrade equipment. i understand that. it would seem like for the musicians and videographers, the older MBP's might be the best option, even if it's not as small as the MB's. it provides more ports and processing power at about the same price as the higher MB now. or hold off a bit and hope that apple sees the error of their ways and adds it back with the next (and inevitable) revision.
post #651 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Thank you Nanto. Now anybody else that needs FireWire and a Blu-Ray player have a choice. Here are the comparative links. Just click on the photo. http://www.vobis.pt/CheckOut.aspx

Thanks for the update. More choices. Keep it up. Hope this solves everybody's concern. Does mine.

Fanaticism usually only exists in places where there is some kind of illiteracy I dearly hope that it does not exist here. my point is that any cheap laptop offers more connectivity than the Macbook does. And however much I like Apple I can also be impartial.
post #652 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4metta View Post

I was about to sell my 06 macbook to a friend and get a new macbook but I had to back out and explain to him that the newest macbook was less functional than mine.

Some friendly advise...
post #653 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Thank you Nanto. Now anybody else that needs FireWire and a Blu-Ray player have a choice. Here are the comparative links. Just click on the photo. http://www.vobis.pt/CheckOut.aspx

Thanks for the update. More choices. Keep it up. Hope this solves everybody's concern. Does mine.

Nanto originally wrote:
Quote:
lets face it a laptop of this price that only provides you with USB interface and only two of them is frankly ridiculous nowadays.

His point was that Apple could easily have afforded the cost of a Firewire port. You're evading the point by telling him, now that he's satisfied your request for data, to take a hike.
post #654 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

yeah i did fix the fan....
have a look what came out

macbook fan cleaning

hmm no way i'm trading in the mac pro for a new macbook pro...
trade in
- 4 x firewire connections for 1 ???
- 4 x 1 TB drives for back up
- ability to run 1 x 24" + 1 x 20" monitors
- optical in/out
- 8 cores (audio is one area where parallel processing is actually used, particularly in logic)

for what ???

as far as software goes i'm using logic which is supposed to be optimised for macs
(with no plug-ins during recording)

I personally wouldn't want to have to use Logic on anything less than a top - the-line Macbook Pro. Certainly not on a Macbook no matter how many FireWire ports were on it.
post #655 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by nanto View Post

Fanaticism usually only exists in places where there is some kind of illiteracy I dearly hope that it does not exist here. my point is that any cheap laptop offers more connectivity than the Macbook does. And however much I like Apple I can also be impartial.

My point was that if Apple offered a cheap laptop, i.e., with less power, slower graphic card, no comparable iLife suite, cheaper chassis, standard trackpad, no backlit keyboard, smaller drive, OS X (Cheetah), no Boot Camp, Windows emulation or Time Machine, would it be OK as long as it had more connectivity and a Blu-Ray player.
post #656 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

My point was that if Apple offered a cheap laptop, i.e., with less power, slower graphic card, no comparable iLife suite, cheaper chassis, standard trackpad, no backlit keyboard, smaller drive, OS X (Cheetah), no Boot Camp, Windows emulation or Time Machine, would it be OK as long as it had more connectivity and a Blu-Ray player.

Don't forget to make it considerable because 9.5mm BD aren't offered yet, and then it would have to be the even thicker tray-loading drive or the price will higher, which will cause even more comparative complaining. Of course, then there are all the detractors from the heavy, thick, non-industry leading, un-Mac-like portables that Apple is now producing.

If Apple has to get a group of people being pissed off at them, It's surely better to pick the very small group than the very large group that make up the bulk of their business.

PS: To back up your point, I'm sure that throughout the entire history of Apple I'm pretty sure I can find a relatively older machine that had more ports than the new Mac at the time.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #657 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

I personally wouldn't want to have to use Logic on anything less than a top - the-line Macbook Pro. Certainly not on a Macbook no matter how many FireWire ports were on it.

yes i understand that a 'top of the line' is better than a lower model
and we both know Logic Studio will work better on a MBP

but from experience it works fine on my 2006 Macbook
no crashes, able to record 8+ tracks for drum takes
plus it is nice, small & light enough to stick in the bag with all the other stuff i have to take to a gig

the only thing is that it's quite clearly straining the processors
(which i guess is your point and one that i agree with)
so the fans start pretty early and don't really stop

so an upgrade of the MB to help the heat dissipation problems (which everyone experiences)
and a power / RAM bump would have put the machine at a perfect size / capability ratio
for on the go audio purposes

i guess i'll just have to wait until some time in 2009
post #658 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zauner View Post

Exactly my situation, too. Promised my friend to sell her my MPB and now have to tell her I can't because the new machines are a glossy non-connective block of metal.

One more thing: This thread painfully shows that majority rule can be the worst kind of dictatorship. Why do you USB freaks even waste your time here to justify Apple's decisions? I mean you're happy with the new machines so please shut up an go back to your USB-friendly hobbies and don't try to majority-rule us. We have to complain because we lost something - and you complain about us, and THAT's arrogant, ignorant and not acceptable. Sorry.

But aren't you glad that you might have help save Apple as you warned, "I have said it many times before and it's happening now: Apple's ignoring the gaming industry will come back to bite it on the ass."

By the way, you haven't lost anything. You can in fact still buy a Macbook with FireWire and at $100 less than before. And "non-connective" would be an outright lie.
post #659 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Now you are in my neck of the woods. No they don't.

Umm... Yes they do.

I just went to the Apple store in Walden Galleria today to check out the new MacBooks...

Every single external hard drive in the back of the store (near the Genius bar) supported FireWIre 400...

Some were USB 2 and FireWIre, some were USB 2/FireWIre 400/FireWire 800, and at least one was USB2/FireWire 400/FireWire 800/eSata.
post #660 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

By the way, you haven't lost anything. You can in fact still buy a Macbook with FireWire and at $100 less than before. And "non-connective" would be an outright lie.

$100 less, and with a SuperDrive included.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #661 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

yes i understand that a 'top of the line' is better than a lower model
and we both know Logic Studio will work better on a MBP

but from experience it works fine on my 2006 Macbook
no crashes, able to record 8+ tracks for drum takes
plus it is nice, small & light enough to stick in the bag with all the other stuff i have to take to a gig

the only thing is that it's quite clearly straining the processors
(which i guess is your point and one that i agree with)
so the fans start pretty early and don't really stop

so an upgrade of the MB to help the heat dissipation problems (which everyone experiences)
and a power / RAM bump would have put the machine at a perfect size / capability ratio
for on the go audio purposes

i guess i'll just have to wait until some time in 2009

I was reading up on a professional audio site this morning that anything less that a Macbook Pro was not recommended for Logic Pro. Just too much draw. Unfortunately I can't find the reference.

However, perhaps the following link might interest you. Particularly Excerpt #4 at http://www.vicfirth.com/artists/queen.html or any of the others http://www.vicfirth.com/features_marching.html are entertaining, that fill my iPhone and iPod Touch.
post #662 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave K. View Post

Umm... Yes they do.

I just went to the Apple store in Walden Galleria today to check out the new MacBooks...

Every single external hard drive in the back of the store (near the Genius bar) supported FireWIre 400...

Some were USB 2 and FireWIre, some were USB 2/FireWIre 400/FireWire 800, and at least one was USB2/FireWire 400/FireWire 800/eSata.

Time Capsule doesn't.
post #663 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

$100 less, and with a SuperDrive included.


Should've had SuperDrive a while ago, though. \

But yeah, the price drop on the PlastiBook while still retaining FW was the one unadulterated piece of good news from the event.

...
Cut-copy-paste, MMS, landscape keyboard, video-recording, voice-calling, and more... FINALLY
To the 'We Didn't Need It' Crowd/Apple Apologista Squad : Wrong again, lol
Thanks for listening to your...
Reply
Cut-copy-paste, MMS, landscape keyboard, video-recording, voice-calling, and more... FINALLY
To the 'We Didn't Need It' Crowd/Apple Apologista Squad : Wrong again, lol
Thanks for listening to your...
Reply
post #664 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

My point was that if Apple offered a cheap laptop, i.e., with less power, slower graphic card, no comparable iLife suite, cheaper chassis, standard trackpad, no backlit keyboard, smaller drive, OS X (Cheetah), no Boot Camp, Windows emulation or Time Machine, would it be OK as long as it had more connectivity and a Blu-Ray player.

I have lots of precious antiques to sell. Aluminium and plastic cases with an apple logo that lights up. Nearly new. Some dont function properly but have some patina on them which makes them more valuable. You can use them as a bed side lamp or tray for your breakfast.

I dearly wish all my clients were more like some of you. Unfortunately they are quite a bit more demanding when they have to pay for something. Glad to see that gullible people arent extinct may they thrive and knock on my door (especially in the midst of this recession). I really need you. Love and peace. Please give me your addresses.
post #665 of 1657
I would gladly buy the MBP and enjoy the larger HD, larger screen, higher performance. It's about 1.5" wider and less than 1" taller and that buys you over 2" diag. larger screen. I would think there would be some value in that.

And for those that can't carry around extra weight, you get all this in a model that weighs 1 pound more. I think we can all man up.

It's a little more $ but if you need that FW port, that's the ticket! Over the productive years this computer will be in service, the extra $ is nothing if you're a pro.
post #666 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

$100 less, and with a SuperDrive included.

Or at the $1299 price point, 400mhz slower, firewire NOT included.
post #667 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugsnw View Post

I would gladly buy the MBP and enjoy the larger HD, larger screen, higher performance. It's about 1.5" wider and less than 1" taller and that buys you over 2" diag. larger screen. I would think there would be some value in that.

And for those that can't carry around extra weight, you get all this in a model that weighs 1 pound more. I think we can all man up.

It's a little more $ but if you need that FW port, that's the ticket! Over the productive years this computer will be in service, the extra $ is nothing if you're a pro.

And if you like having two FW ports, as I do, you can go to MacConnection's site, as I did, and get one of the last revision 2.5GHz Macbook Pros(MB134LL/A) for $1649.95, after $150 rebate, which is only about $350 more than the new MB. As in a previous post, you can go to Apples website and voice your complaints. If they don't listen to the consumers then let it hit them in the wallet as in LOST SALES.
post #668 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave K. View Post

When Apple dropped the modem port from the iMac (and subsequent computers) they provided anApple-branded solutions for those who still needed a modem port.

When Apple dropped the Ethernet port from the MacBook Air they provided an Apple-branded solution for those who still needed a Ethernet on the Macbook Air.

When Apple dropped the FireWire port from the MacBook (and probably subsequent future computers) they did NOTHING for its customers. Nothing, except drop the port.

.

When Apple dropped ADB port from Mac for USB, did Apple provide an Apple branded solution for those who still needed ADB?

When Apple dropped SCSI from Mac for Firewire, did Apple provide an Apple branded solution for those who still needed SCSI?

When Apple dropped serial from Mac for USB, did Apple provide an Apple branded solution?
post #669 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnqh View Post

When Apple dropped ADB port from Mac for USB, did Apple provide an Apple branded solution for those who still needed ADB?

When Apple dropped SCSI from Mac for Firewire, did Apple provide an Apple branded solution for those who still needed SCSI?

When Apple dropped serial from Mac for USB, did Apple provide an Apple branded solution?

Those were all upgrades. This dropping a feature of aesthetic design reasons. This is more akin to Apple dropping SCSI and requiring users to rely on the serial port.
post #670 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

Those were all upgrades. This dropping a feature of aesthetic design reasons. This is more akin to Apple dropping SCSI and requiring users to rely on the serial port.

Classic Mac-to-iMac :: Dropping Floppy drives for a CD-ROM reader only for the 2.5 years it took to offer an internal CD-ROM writable./

PB-to MBP :: Dropping PCMCIA for EC/34 when there were no PCMCIA-to-EC/34 adapter and no cards that matched the same basic functionality for about a year after the upgrade to the MBP.

PB-to MBP :ropping the DL-DVD burner with a faster speed drive to a slower, SL-DVD burner for nearly a year until a DL-DVD burner was made available.

Every single one of those things upset a lot of people in the exact same way as this petty FW400 issue. I can see the annoyance and reason for the kerfuffle, but the excessive whining makes no sense. You have a more expensive option and you have a cheaper option that are both very capable machines. Not to mention that you don't have to change your current Mac HW because right away. it'll still work the same as it did prior to Tuesday. THERE IS NO FW400 KILL SWITCH!

Beyond that, if you didn't see the dead-end port interface of FW400 not being upgradable like FW800 and USB's standards; as well as Apple's systematic removal of its usage from its own paeripihals from using FW400. From not including the cables with the iPods, to not allowing them to sync, to not allowing them to charge the device at all with new iPods.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #671 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post

1) If FireWire is "obsolete" today, why wasn't it obsolete two or more years ago when Apple was still promoting its virtues? It seems nothing really has changed in that time frame that would now suddenly cause FireWire to be obsolete.

FW400 was borderline 2 years ago.

FW800 is borderline today.

2 years is a long time. What made FW400 obsolete today? eSATA is more common (needs to be in the MBP really), USB2 video cams are more common, NAS are more common in homes and 802.11N.

With up to a TB available via 802.11N on Time Capsule you don't need to be tethered via cable except when you need a lot of speed. In which case gigE is faster then FW400.

The biggest loss for FW400 for MOST folks is for connecting to FW based video cams.

Quote:
2) If FireWire really is obsolete, why did Apple expend the effort to intentionally build it into the new-from-the-ground-up MacBook Pro, especially considering there is no native support on the nVidia chipset?

FW800 is borderline. The MBP lost its FW400 port.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave K. View Post

Well said. To add to your comments.

If FireWire is obsolete technology than why does every single external hard drive sold in Apple retail stores still have this obsolete port on them (just checked the Buffalo, NY store)? Its not a obsolete technology by any stretch...

Sure is obsolete.

1) Apple's crappy USB drivers are somewhat less crappy than before. Seagate explains this is why their crappy FW400 implementation works no faster than their USB2 implementation.

Just because you have FW400 on a drive no longer means it works any faster than on USB2.

http://www.macworld.com/article/1318...onetouch4.html

2) External drives today should be eSATA for performance and Apple is behind by using FW. Apple's only saving grace is the expresscard on the MBP.

The only thing that FW400 ISN'T obsolete for is (older) video and pro-audio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Is that the compromise that needed to be made though?

I would say what's more important FW800 or Gigabit ethernet? The answer IMO is FW800. Ethernet can be supported via a USB adaptor. By contrast you can't get the benefit of FW800 from an adaptor.

GigE over USB is pointless.

I'd MUCH rather have GigE than FW800 if I could only have one. 1394c (Firewire S800T aka FW on RJ45) is only theoretical at this point and IP over FW is essentially dead since MS killed support on Vista. Likewise 1394b (FW800) is not supported in Vista despite promises to the contrary.

So FW800 is essentially dead as well. I'd rather buy a new camera than give up the ability to connect to a network at wire speeds.
post #672 of 1657
I waited to see what the new MacBooks were like before deciding on a new laptop. I'm going to wait until this time next year to buy one of the new "bricks."

Not because of the lack of Firewire, but because of the lack of USB3, which we know darn well is coming, the imminent arrival of Intel's Nehalem architecture, which is supposed to leave their current chips in the dust, and the imminent arrival of Snow Leopard, which I don't want to have to turn right around and buy retail.

The absence of Firewire is unfortunate, but inevitable. I was lucky enough to time my hardware transitions so I went from being mildly inconvenienced by not having it, to having it and seldom using it, to hardly ever using it. If the luck of the draw didn't treat some of you as well, I feel your pain, but Apple tried to push Firewire, it didn't take, it's time to admit it and move on. (I loved my Betamax VCR, too.)

I absolutely will buy one of the new MacBooks when they're Nehalem, with Snow Leopard and USB3, though. Reading a lot of complaining on all these forums about Apple laptops not being as dead solid reliable as they used to be, most of the problems sound like they can be attributed to broken connections and circuit-board traces due to case flex, as all the features have gotten smaller and more delicate. (And remember that this lead-free solder they have to use now is no damn good.)

Apple has been getting all these failed machines back and undoubtedly analyzing the Hell out of them, trying to figure out why they've been failing. This much more rigid case is their answer. It sounds to me as if it will work, but a year from now we'll know better. Meanwhile, I'm buying the MacBook that was absolutely current just a week ago, except to get a Superdrive then, you had to pay $1300. Now it's $1000. Sold! And it still has a Firewire port. A year from now, when I get my new MacBook, I can still use it for my Firewire-related needs (if any.)

I can't wait! These new 'books look fantastic.
post #673 of 1657
I don't watch TV. Does anyone know if Apple's "Get a Mac" series included a 2008 episode that touted the powers of Firewire for diagnostic/recovery purposes, or that implicitly touted it for capturing video/audio streams? If such episodes are found, they'd make it awkward for those who say that Apple was signaling its impending demise.

It's likely that Firewire was mentioned in an episode or two that preceded 2008, because it's so useful--or was, anyway. So perhaps subsequent episodes didn't harp on it again.
post #674 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

GigE over USB is pointless.

I'd MUCH rather have GigE than FW800 if I could only have one.

I'd rather buy a new camera than give up the ability to connect to a network at wire speeds.

But network speeds are much slower anyway. Assuming you do have network devices that support the full Gigabit bandwidth and the target machine does too (this isn't the case for a lot of people), your maximum transfer rate is the read/write speed of your internal drive. A laptop 5400 gets about 20MB/s. A 7200 gets around 30MB/s.

Full Gig-E speed is 125MB/s so the majority of people aren't using bandwidth anywhere near the capacity. A USB2 port gives you 60MB/s, which is more than enough. The adaptors say that you get full Gig-E speeds. They will mean that you won't actually notice the difference in pretty much every circumstance.

FW on the other hand has benefits due to the architecture that can't be replicated with an adaptor.

On the principle of negatively affecting the least amount of users and given that laptop users are more likely to use wifi and given that there are adaptors for ethernet, I still think the best choice would have been to use firewire instead.
post #675 of 1657
wow, we've been getting cross about this now for almost a week - and, in my opinion, understandably but...

one answer to all our problems is to buy a MBP but it's not a go-er for many of us who want a cheaper, small form laptop that's actually an upgrade from the plastimac of last year. So how about looking at some other solutions?

I work in broadcast but mostly editing and compiling reports for the web. I'm not about to spend a lot of money on a new expensive camera - I've got a £1200 Sony A1 (firewire only for video). Most USB cameras are hard drive based and aren't specced up for anything very serious (the Sony A1, for instance, has XLR mic fittings which I need to use) whereas standard cameras have 3.5mm jacks which die a death pretty quickly but I got to thinking that there must be another solution.

So I've been looking at ways to get back functionality despite lack of firewire support on the new macbook. I got to thinking about shooting DV on one (expensive camera) and then ingesting it using a different camera:

I've got an old, cheap (£120) Sony Dv camera (HC24E) which supports streaming/capture over USB - but with two caveats:
1. Low res WMV files are created.
2. yup, you guessed it... only over Windows OS.

So, I've installed XP with Bootcamp and am now ingesting via that, saving off the (admittedly low res) wmv files and then pulling them back into OS X and, eventually, can start using them again in FCP.

It is an incredibly long winded solution thanks to lack of support on the Sony/OS X front for the USB side of the camera but at least it's cheap and it means I don't have to carry another PC based laptop and then start shuttling files between them both. Perhaps I could get it working via parallels or Crossover (but I think I'd drop hundreds of frames)? If we could find a cheap/free DV stream ingest that would work with USB it could make it easier? I haven't found one that doesn't require FW yet but I'm looking...

As an aside - the guys in the Apple Stores don't seem particularly happy either - I was in the Liverpool branch at the weekend and the team said that while sales were going well they were getting loads of complaints about FW (and, yup, they're still selling FW only devices in store). As one of the guys said "nice one Steve, thanks for dropping that on us".

Has anyone else got any solutions? - obviously we seem to be realising that a £5 cable from eBay is not going to be the answer and the promised multi-platform interfaces of the past have so far failed to come to market.

Sorry to the audio guys - you seem to be having a very tough time of it - but can't we start finding solutions to Apple's mistakes?

all the best
post #676 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

FW400 was borderline 2 years ago.

Back this up...

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

FW800 is borderline today.

ditto...

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

2 years is a long time. What made FW400 obsolete today? eSATA is more common (needs to be in the MBP really), USB2 video cams are more common, NAS are more common in homes and 802.11N.

With up to a TB available via 802.11N on Time Capsule you don't need to be tethered via cable except when you need a lot of speed. In which case gigE is faster then FW400.

OK off you go, try transferring large files via wifi - something you have obviously never done - I have tried (between Mac Pro 2008 and Macbook Pro 2007 both on 802.11n) and the result is a lot less spectacular than you think...

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

The biggest loss for FW400 for MOST folks is for connecting to FW based video cams.

No. Please show me a pro quality audio interface equipped with FW800 (I think there're one or two that exist). If the multi-billion dollar pro-audio industry still uses FW400 as standard how can you claim it's obselete ? Just because a few lower end items are now available in USB2 ?

Did you realise you can buy USB microphones too ? Are you going to tell us that USB will replace XLR connections ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Just because you have FW400 on a drive no longer means it works any faster than on USB2.

http://www.macworld.com/article/1318...onetouch4.html

You can't take one example of a bad implementation of FW400 and use it to prove anything. Even in the article you quote, the writer says that "the Maxtor OneTouch’s FireWire 400 port actually lagged that of its USB port in the Duplicate File and Low Memory tests, which is atypical in a hard drive"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

2) External drives today should be eSATA for performance and Apple is behind by using FW. Apple's only saving grace is the expresscard on the MBP.

You're welcome to purchase non-hot swappable external hard drives, but why you'd do that to plug them into a portable notebook is beyond me... USB or FW are the way to go for portable equipment - but you pick the technology which suits your application. If it's just photos and the occasional word document (ie read/write uni-directional transfer) then USB2 is fine, if it's pro-audio etc then FW is needed (provided your drive/device is optimised for this and isn't a Maxtor OneTouch \)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

The only thing that FW400 ISN'T obsolete for is (older) video and pro-audio.

Your only point that closely resembles reason so far... but you forget that many high end, brand new video cameras (eg HV30) are FW based.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

GigE over USB is pointless.

Agreed. (see below) GigE is useless for notebooks as an external device connection medium - but it should still be included on notebooks for the case that you need to connecting to an established network (like a non wifi internet server or a work network).

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

I'd MUCH rather have GigE than FW800 if I could only have one.

So you're give all this 'good advice' on technologies that you don't own (ie have no experience with).

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

1394c (Firewire S800T aka FW on RJ45) is only theoretical at this point and IP over FW is essentially dead since MS killed support on Vista. Likewise 1394b (FW800) is not supported in Vista despite promises to the contrary.

So FW800 is essentially dead as well. I'd rather buy a new camera than give up the ability to connect to a network at wire speeds.

So basically you're comparing login based networking technologies (ESata and GigE) with hot swappable technologies... good luck with that one.

Oh and to avoid ridicule I wouldn't be basing anything on decisions made in Vista...

Come to think of it, why don't you go out and buy a nice brand new ESata or GigE external storage case (as I did) and see how much you like it. Not only do you have to log in (via Bonjour) every time (with minutes of delay), but many these things are designed to be left on permanently (it's essentially server technology). Try doing that in the studio or at starbucks to retrieve a couple of backed up files quickly.
post #677 of 1657
I think the missing FW ports is a mistake. What am I to do with my FW HDD and camera. Removing FW is one thing, but to not offer an alternative I'm flabbergasted.
post #678 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by petermac View Post

I think the missing FW ports is a mistake. What am I to do with my FW HDD and camera. Removing FW is one thing, but to not offer an alternative I'm flabbergasted.

Great question.

Better Question:
Why would you want to upgrade your current Macbook?

For sure:

  • It is probably faster.
  • It has everything you need and are using now.
  • You don't have to upgrade anything.
  • Both the old 2.1 and 2.4 outperform the new machines, e.g., re Cinema 4D Rendering, and they match or better iMovie HD Aged Effect[/INDENT]
http://www.macworld.com/article/1362...tml?lsrc=top_1
Better Question:
Where are all those guys, and some of them are here, that used to complain that Apple was ignoring gamers?

Notice the silence:

  • Now gamers can have 5 times the Frame Rates in Quake 4, for example.
In Summary:
Keep the status quo and save money
  • If you have already invested in FW Drives or FW video equipment you can't live without, it would appear that the worst thing you should do is go anywhere near the new Macbooks.
Move up and enjoy the new standard
  • If you are just starting to get involved in this medium, best you go with what is now becoming the new standard for consumer level use, i.e., go for USB 2.
Leap and salivate
  • If you are a serious video editing and gaming on a laptop, your best option is to suck it up and go for the ultimate, i.e., the new Macbook Pro.
post #679 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by brax.j View Post

If you look back people have complained about things that are way more important than if the new MacBook has firewire or not so why is this such a big deal.

you are right, sure. But they have to investigate carefully to define what they include and what not. It's not true, that almost all camcorders support USB and as I ivestigated in different forums about this issue. USB to Firewire adapters don't work in 100% of all cases. E.g. I have a HDV Camcorder from Canon and it doesn't support USB. A lot of semi/prof camcorder don't do it either.
post #680 of 1657
I confess to being drawn back to this thread over and over, and a couple things really amaze me:

1. The number of people who accuse Apple of being greedy by tuning product line feature sets to force the market to make a buying decision favorable to their bottom line. I'm surprised many people don't realize this procedure is done by nearly every successful manufacturer in the world today. Companies make products to sell so the stockholders make money. If Steve makes a decision for Apple, and it upsets the market's processes (including the third party accessory manufacturers) but makes Apple more money, then he has successfully done the only thing he gets paid for by Apple. If it backfires and nobody buys the product because of the decision, then we can call him an idiot. If they are releasing the MacBook without FW this month to grab up early sales and another better one is released next month with FW included, or even a full-featured 13" MBP -- then we can call him greedy and shameful.

2. The number of people who think that because Apple makes some wonderfully cool products, they would never intentionally, stupidly, or even accidentally produce a real piece of crap. For those reader/posters who have never had to fight the drawbacks of these products, you are fortunate. Those of you who didn't have to lobby a skeptical IT department for new Macs only to end up with some of these, you can't image how much better your life is for not having lived with this. Take a deep breath to calm down and go read on the history of Apple's mistakes at lowendmac.com/roadapples.

That said, I am not calling people who think "Apple is greedy" stupid, just seriously naive about business. And I'm not calling the new MacBook a piece of crap -- I'm sure it's a really nice computer, but I personally think it would have been much better and more useful if there was an ExpressCard port that let users add on FireWire, extra USB, eSATA, memory card readers, etc., all of which could have been sold by Apple at high markup. To me, spending gobs of money on accessories that let me use my computers the way I want to is never as bad as NOT being able to get the configuration I want no matter how much you try to add on..
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Current Mac Hardware
AppleInsider › Forums › Mac Hardware › Current Mac Hardware › Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire