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Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire - Page 18

post #681 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by sambamac View Post

you are right, sure. But they have to investigate carefully to define what they include and what not. It's not true, that almost all camcorders support USB and as I ivestigated in different forums about this issue. USB to Firewire adapters don't work in 100% of all cases. E.g. I have a HDV Camcorder from Canon and it doesn't support USB. A lot of semi/prof camcorder don't do it either.

And even if there are a lot of USB 2.0 Camcorders out there, this does not change the fact that the expensive Canon XL-1 that I use and is still running fine uses Firewire. I'm not going to replace a camera that still works fine, just because of a change in the interface, especially when the camera costs more than the computer. I am a MacBook Pro User so this isn't a big deal yet, I just hope it is not a new trend going to the rest of the lines.
post #682 of 1657
Bottom line, this is about money. It always is.

Take a crow bar to your wallets and step up to the MBP....ya cheap bastards.

Or go buy an adapter for the real cheap asses.

Think about it, you will be helping the economy.

This is DimMok....and I approve this message.

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post #683 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by DimMok View Post

Bottom line, this is about money. It always is.

Take a crow bar to your wallets and step up to the MBP....ya cheap bastards.

Or go buy an adapter for the real cheap asses.

Think about it, you will be helping the economy.

This is DimMok....and I approve this message.

You're cheap if you don't want to have to but a large heavy, $2000 to get what your previous iBook, Macbook, or 12" PB already had? The reality distortion is in full force here.
post #684 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

You're cheap if you don't want to have to but a large heavy, $2000 to get what your previous iBook, Macbook, or 12" PB already had? The reality distortion is in full force here.

I dont approve your message.

Tech changes man, go buy the cable, jeez.....

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They were both wrong.

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post #685 of 1657
Anyone who would use a cable with Firewire on one end and USB on the other does not understand how basic computing technology works and should be legally barred from using a Mac.
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post #686 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by DimMok View Post

I dont approve your message.

Tech changes man, go buy the cable, jeez.....

1. Those cables are 4-Pin only
2. They are NOT usable with OSX
3. Even if they did come in 6 (400) and 9 (800) and were Mac compatible, it would not give me target disk mode.
post #687 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

Back this up...

With what? That USB2 dominated the market even 2 years ago? Done. That eSATA was the emerging new high speed external disk interface? Done.

Quote:
ditto...

Already did. Vista...no support for FW800 despite promises to do so. Very few FW800 enclosures (RAID or otherwise) in comparison to eSATA enclosures.

FW800 today for most folks (even Pros) is not all that important. There are certainly SOME Pros with a significant use for it but I can see Apple dropping even FW800 in a couple three years and assuming that folks that need it will get an expresscard with it.

Quote:
OK off you go, try transferring large files via wifi - something you have obviously never done - I have tried (between Mac Pro 2008 and Macbook Pro 2007 both on 802.11n) and the result is a lot less spectacular than you think...

Gee, I guess I must be imagining using my MBP with my Timecapsule on a daily basis. And TC is not blazing as a NAS. Here's a brilliant news flash for you:

Big assed files take a long assed time regardless of technology. When I back up everything to an external drive for offsite storage it goes overnight.

Quote:
No. Please show me a pro quality audio interface equipped with FW800 (I think there're one or two that exist). If the multi-billion dollar pro-audio industry still uses FW400 as standard how can you claim it's obselete ? Just because a few lower end items are now available in USB2 ?

Which part of "most folks" confuse you? Do you believe that the pro-audio crowd is a significant number of folks?

Quote:
Did you realise you can buy USB microphones too ? Are you going to tell us that USB will replace XLR connections ?

Again, which part of most folks confuses you?

Quote:
You can't take one example of a bad implementation of FW400 and use it to prove anything. Even in the article you quote, the writer says that "the Maxtor OneTouchs FireWire 400 port actually lagged that of its USB port in the Duplicate File and Low Memory tests, which is atypical in a hard drive"...

There's no proof involved. Just that Seagate says that Apple has improved it's USB2 drivers.

Besides, the number of crappy external drive implementations are far larger than you may think. Also the small external drives like the LaCie Little Disks are slower than heck. Wanna bet that the speed difference isn't all that much?


Quote:
You're welcome to purchase non-hot swappable external hard drives, but why you'd do that to plug them into a portable notebook is beyond me... USB or FW are the way to go for portable equipment - but you pick the technology which suits your application.

http://www.barefeats.com/note04.html

SATA sustained reads: 110
FW800 sustained reads: 71

SATA sustained writes: 67
FW800 sustained writes: 49

That's why. Besides, who the hell hot swaps 1 TB RAID arrays? Yes, FW400 is faster than USB2. But who cares with large files sizes? Slow isn't much better than Dog Slow.

Quote:
If it's just photos and the occasional word document (ie read/write uni-directional transfer) then USB2 is fine, if it's pro-audio etc then FW is needed (provided your drive/device is optimised for this and isn't a Maxtor OneTouch \)

Again, since you seem to lack reading comprehension, MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT AUDIO PROS.

Quote:
Your only point that closely resembles reason so far... but you forget that many high end, brand new video cameras (eg HV30) are FW based.

Probably not for very long as FW dies.

Quote:
Agreed. (see below) GigE is useless for notebooks as an external device connection medium - but it should still be included on notebooks for the case that you need to connecting to an established network (like a non wifi internet server or a work network).

Still reading challenged I see. GigE is useless over a USB2 dongle because you're limted by the USB interface. GigE is VERY useful for notebooks because it's fast and wireless isn't always available/working. When I need to do a large transfer to TimeCapsule I'll plug in directly into the device. This is faster than my FW400 drive.

Quote:
So you're give all this 'good advice' on technologies that you don't own (ie have no experience with).

I have FW800 on my MBP. I use FW400 for my tiny little drive and for my video camera. I use eSATA in my lab. I use 802.11N and gigE to my TC and at work. Which technology do I NOT use?

Quote:
So basically you're comparing login based networking technologies (ESata and GigE) with hot swappable technologies... good luck with that one.

No, I'm comparing technology that's used every day vs ones that only exist on paper.

Quote:
Oh and to avoid ridicule I wouldn't be basing anything on decisions made in Vista...

Yeah, because 90% market share makes Microsoft irrelevant.

Quote:
Come to think of it, why don't you go out and buy a nice brand new ESata or GigE external storage case (as I did) and see how much you like it. Not only do you have to log in (via Bonjour) every time (with minutes of delay), but many these things are designed to be left on permanently (it's essentially server technology). Try doing that in the studio or at starbucks to retrieve a couple of backed up files quickly.

How odd...I use my TC every day, sometimes over GigE. I VPN back to my work shares while at starbucks to get at files I might have forgotten. If I need a multi GB fiile, yes, then I'll bother to plug in my external drive. USB2 or FW400 makes little difference at that point.

For working for real...I'd rather have a eSATA drive sitting in my bag than FW400. And yes, you CAN hotplug eSATA given that it's in the SATA II spec if you have AHCI and 10.5.x. Depends on the implementation for the expresscard eSATA how well that really works though...
post #688 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by zanshin View Post

I confess to being drawn back to this thread over and over, and a couple things really amaze me:

2. The number of people who think that because Apple makes some wonderfully cool products, they would never intentionally, stupidly, or even accidentally produce a real piece of crap. ... Take a deep breath to calm down and go read on the history of Apple's mistakes at lowendmac.com/roadapples.

They forgot / left out the worst: the super-unreliable Apple III.
post #689 of 1657
Reading Arstechnica. Which is more PC centric than AI.

When people on Ars boards complain about FW. The response from other board memebers is "who cares, I haven't used FireWire in years".
post #690 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Knights View Post

They forgot / left out the worst: the super-unreliable Apple III.

Hey, watch what you say. My Apple III was flawless, and I did a crapload of movie and television scripts on that machine. And I don't care if my Apple III was the only good one of the bunch -- don't say bad things about my baby (which I then retired after a few years of faithful work, and a card that fit inside that transferred files over to DOS stuff if I recall correctly).
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post #691 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

People have just been used to buying Apples and having FIrewire 400, but Firewire 400 is like USB 1 and USB 1 is going away in place of USB2. So, it is just a progression. I am sure the same discussion will happen if and when Apple comes out with FIrewire 1600 or Firewire 3200, or FIrewire 6400.

Yes, but Apple did NOT include a replacement port for FW400 on the MacBook. No comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Yes we've discussed audio several times and several time its been suggested that you have the option of:

-Continuing to use your current machine
-Purchase the earlier MacBook for $999
-Purchase a new or earlier MacBook Pro.
-4 of Apple's 6 computers use FW, choose any one

-Until that dies.
-Until that is no longer available
-If one has the money to do so (not everyone can afford to thus a 'forced' upsell)
-What if you need portability? Then you have one option - the Pro. Got the $$$'s?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Apple agreed to support Blu-ray, but ultimately its still Sony's format. Steve noted the high price of licensing fees is why Apple is in no rush to adopt Blu-ray.

Sounds familiar? Pot-Kettle-Black! Maybe FireWire would be a much more 'popular' technology if Apple had licensed the technology at a more affordable price to other manufacturers at the outset rather than having to have it's hand forced on the issue? Look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DimMok View Post

Bottom line, this is about money. It always is.
Take a crow bar to your wallets and step up to the MBP....ya cheap bastards.
Or go buy an adapter for the real cheap asses.
Think about it, you will be helping the economy.
This is DimMok....and I approve this message.

You're an idiot. For all those who did not take the time to read through this thread...
You cannot buy an 'adaptor' that will run as effectively or as fast as FireWire.
Any operational functions that you may have had through FireWire will be lost.
No native Mac OS support.
USB is not a viable alternative for semi/pro audio/video work.
post #692 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

As I have mentioned numerous times, the smaller 12" PowerBook - which I was happy to own - had all the current MacBook ports.
And it had a modem port and a Firewire port.

Lack of space cannot possibly be an excuse.

I know the model well. But its a considerably different design.

And, I also admit freely, that Apple is obviously discounting FW. It had to happen, I have said in the past it will happen, and it is now happening.

I will also say again that I feel it's too early to do so, so I don't totally agree with Apple's decision here.

But Apple has their reasons, and I'm trying to lay those out, because they do make sense from their point of view.
post #693 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Reading Arstechnica. Which is more PC centric than AI.

When people on Ars boards complain about FW. The response from other board memebers is "who cares, I haven't used FireWire in years".

It used to be a day when Mac users were productive with their Macs and thus they could articulate the advantages of technologies.

Mac users used to be "with it" regarding technology. They used to buy more more peripherals (proportionately) and had a general love for technology that was well integrated.

Today ..being a Mac users just isn't the same. I'm sure the old foggy will always reminisce about the "good ole days" and conveniently forget the negative.

Today though there are so many computer users who have varying levels of ignorance and incuriosity wrapped with a severe lack foresight.

Apple laptops used to be the perfect blend of performance and functionality wrapped in high style. These new laptops are gorgeous but they don't just don't excite me from a functionlity standpoint.

Is it fun to complain vociferously about perceived injustice? No. But we and vendors alike who have invested in Firewire deserve better. Frankly the cost for Apple to support us is relatively miniscule.
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post #694 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiMac View Post

Yes, but Apple did NOT include a replacement port for FW400 on the MacBook. No comparison.

Sure they did. Not being backwards compatible to FW400, it is effectively a little slower for the time being and/or doesn't work with your current equipment doesn't mean it's not Apple's "replacement" for FW400. It only means that that it's inconvenient for a small group of people.

The original MacBook Pro user didn't have any DL-DVD burner, despite this being a feature on the 15" PowerBook. And all that money in PCMCIA cards were wasted if you wanted to upgrade to a MacBook Pro because it used ExpressCard/34. Which, by the way, was shipped effectively useless as their was no cards available, yet now people can't imagine a MBP without it.

PS: Even if Apple added FW800 to the MacBook there would still be detractors claiming that now they now have to carry a FW800-to-FW400 adaptor with them.
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post #695 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by infinitespecter View Post


You realize that Apple is a big member of the BluRay consortium, right?

But Apple not only doesn't make their own drives as does Sony, but they don't make the components of the drives to sell to others as Sony also does. Big difference. Apple's belonging to the consortium has nothing to do with much when it comes to licensing fees. They still have to pay them to the format owners, which is mainly Sony. Sony has no licensing fees to pay, as the owners of the format wave those fees amongst themselves.
post #696 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Sure they did. Not being backwards compatible to FW400, it is effectively a little slower for the time being and/or doesn't work with your current equipment doesn't mean it's not Apple's "replacement" for FW400. It only means that that it's inconvenient for a small group of people.

The original MacBook Pro user didn't have any DL-DVD burner, despite this being a feature on the 15" PowerBook. And all that money in PCMCIA cards were wasted if you wanted to upgrade to a MacBook Pro because it used ExpressCard/34. Which, by the way, was shipped effectively useless as their was no cards available, yet now people can't imagine a MBP without it.

PS: Even if Apple added FW800 to the MacBook there would still be detractors claiming that now they now have to carry a FW800-to-FW400 adaptor with them.

Where? It sounds like you're about to go into a "The King Has No Clothes" type of fantasy. The preceding Macbooks has both USB and FW and now they have only USB. If can logically argue yourself out of this one you should be a member of SCOTUS. Your current explanation doesn't work.

Replacement defined


The act or process of replacing or of being replaced; substitution.
One that replaces, especially a person assigned to a vacant military position.

FW has not been substituted for anything as the preceding Macbooks had 2 USB Ports and 1 FW.

Anyone you look at it the fact remains that a superior connectivity method was jettisoned with no reliable way to bring that superior connectivity back.
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post #697 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by nanto View Post

Your correct most new ones have a USB interface however I, like many other here, do not. Having two videocameras with firewire and a couple of hard drives leaves me out in the cold. (something very easily avoidable). lets face it a laptop of this price that only provides you with USB interface and only two of them is frankly ridiculous nowadays.I RECENTLY BOUGHT an "Acer Aspire One" as a present, thats a 299 euro machine and that comes with 2 card reader 3 USB ports 1 Ethernet port 1 VGA out and a kensington lock all for 299 euros.

If Apple had provided some other type of connection possibility then OK but 2 USB ports is laughable. No Firewire no Expansion slot no USB3 no Sd card reader, nothing that could justify removing that firewire port.

USB 3 isn't out yet. Wait until next year then.
post #698 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Apple laptops used to be the perfect blend of performance and functionality wrapped in high style. These new laptops are gorgeous but they don't just don't excite me from a functionlity standpoint.

I can agree with result from the loss of Firewire. But statements like this is when I feel perspective has been lost of FW true importance.

In the larger scheme of things an I/O port is not all that important. 10 years is a pretty good run as I/O ports don't generally last past that.

Apple is a relative small player in the computer industry. With in that Apple is able to challenge Intel and Nvidia to invent specialized chips and chipsets to improve the Mac's performance beyond that of competitors. Apple is able to optimize the performance of OS X to these specialized components. In the larger picture that is what will impact the Mac user more than one I/O port.
post #699 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave K. View Post

When Apple dropped the modem port from the iMac (and subsequent computers) they provided anApple-branded solutions for those who still needed a modem port.

When Apple dropped the Ethernet port from the MacBook Air they provided an Apple-branded solution for those who still needed a Ethernet on the Macbook Air.

When Apple dropped the FireWire port from the MacBook (and probably subsequent future computers) they did NOTHING for its customers. Nothing, except drop the port.

I don't have a problem buying a FireWire to USB converter device. I think it sucks, but I would buy it if I had too. But I want the device to come from Apple. Not from a 3rd party manufacturer which tested their device on a whole total of 3 FireWire devices before they deemed it "Mac-compatible".

An Apple branded solution is needed here (especially if the iMac updates next month drop FireWire too).

This is very interesting, because most people here complain about Apple's solutions. They want third party solutions because they, in error, state that Apple's are too expensive, and they don't want to give the money to Apple because they are oh so mad at them.
post #700 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

The act or process of replacing or of being replaced; substitution. Anyone you look at it the fact remains that a superior connectivity method was jettisoned with no reliable way to bring that superior connectivity back.

A replacement doesn't have to equal or superior in every way to a previous option, it only has to be a substitution. As Jobs stated in an email to a concerned customer, Apple has clearly chosen USB2.0 to be the replacement for FW400, since all [sic] cameras released support USB2.0. With their TimeCapsule device (and other networked drives) they clearly expect Ethernet, WiFi and USB to replace external FW400 HDDs.
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post #701 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Better Question:
Where are all those guys, and some of them are here, that used to complain that Apple was ignoring gamers?

Notice the silence:

  • Now gamers can have 5 times the Frame Rates in Quake 4, for example.

They're all out gaming.
post #702 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave K. View Post

Well said. To add to your comments.

If FireWire is obsolete technology than why does every single external hard drive sold in Apple retail stores still have this obsolete port on them (just checked the Buffalo, NY store)? Its not a obsolete technology by any stretch...

Dave it isn't obsolete, but it is rapidly becoming obsolete. Apple knows that. Two years ago, that wasn't the case. More pros, with pro machines, use FW than do others. I'm sure Apple knows that as well.

The truth is that few Macbook owners are going to rush out and buy the new models. Most buyers will be those who have no computer as yet, or have a PC, laptop, or otherwise.

Apple also knows this quite well. We see the stats on who is buying Apple's machines all the time.

I think they look at that, and at the new drives, camcorders and such, that come with USB 2 (at slightly lower cost), and figured that as so many people don't use FW (likely the majority by far these days), removing it now wouldn't be a problem for the new customer at all, or for most old customers.

Also, most people will be replacing their older machines further down the road, once USB 3 will be here.

USB 3, by the way, has little in common with ver 1.1 and 2, other than the name, and that it's backwards compatible. It's much more like FW than not.

When it does come out, next year, we will see adapters that will give FW 400, and possibly even 800, pretty much full speed, and functionality.

The fewer types of ports I have, the better. With its improved ability to accommodate stringing devices together, and with its vastly higher speeds, only one of these ports will serve most people quite well.

While I do think it's early to discontinue it, I do see some good reasons why Apple did.
post #703 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Sure they did. Not being backwards compatible to FW400, it is effectively a little slower for the time being and/or doesn't work with your current equipment doesn't mean it's not Apple's "replacement" for FW400. It only means that that it's inconvenient for a small group of people.

Hold on... did I miss something? Let me have another look...
No, just USB on the MacBook.

Aaaah! You mean USB is the replacement? How can USB be the replacement for FireWire when it has always been on the MacBook? You cannot 'replace' something with something else that co-exists. USB in any revision will never be a replacement technology for FireWire. Why continue to develop FW if that was the case? USB2 is also technologically inferior to FW400 on so many levels.. (realtime speed, functionality etc).

Quote:
PS: Even if Apple added FW800 to the MacBook there would still be detractors claiming that now they now have to carry a FW800-to-FW400 adaptor with them.



Are you serious?
That adaptor is shown beside a battery (AAA or equivalent). The FW cable needed to connect to this thing is much larger and I think I could live with 'lugging' that around in my pocket.
post #704 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Is that the compromise that needed to be made though?

I would say what's more important FW800 or Gigabit ethernet? The answer IMO is FW800. Ethernet can be supported via a USB adaptor. By contrast you can't get the benefit of FW800 from an adaptor.

I don't agree.

Ethernet is far more important that FW to most people.

Also, the MB never had FW 800, so that dosn't matter at all. The comparison is FW 400 to Ethernet.

If you get network drives, as more people are doing, like Apple's Time Machine, and numerous models from just about everyone else, they will be Ethernet. A drive is better over Gb Ethernet than FW 400 any day. Not even close. I've done it here at home. Ethernet is almost twice as fast.
post #705 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiMac View Post

Hold on... did I miss something? Let me have another look...
No, just USB on the MacBook.

Aaaah! You mean USB is the replacement? How can USB be the replacement for FireWire when it has always been on the MacBook? You cannot 'replace' something with something else that co-exists. USB in any revision will never be a replacement technology for FireWire.

For example, people are replacing their current homes with smaller homes and their expensive cars with cheaper cars. The operative word is 'replacement', not advancement. There are many examples of technology where the most advanced never took hold or the less capable outdid the more capable. We see both of these examples with with the span of a few years. audio: SACD not catching on and ITS audio outselling optical media.

Quote:
Why continue to develop FW if that was the case?

FireWire is obsolescing for the many reasons that have been made over-and-over on these 18 pages, but the FW400 interface port is obsolescing even faster because it's not the same port as FW800, the way FW3200 shares the port with FW800, and all 3 USB standards share the same port interface, even though the technical specs within the port are different.

Quote:
USB2 is also technologically inferior to FW400 on so many levels.. (realtime speed, functionality etc).

It is, but FW400 is inferior to USB2.0 when it comes to adoption, usage and cost.

Quote:


Are you serious?
That adaptor is shown beside a battery (AAA or equivalent). The FW cable needed to connect to this thing is much larger and I think I could live with 'lugging' that around in my pocket.

I'm sure anyone could live with 'lugging' it around, but people always complain about having to buy an adapter and about having to worry about minding another adapter. There are plenty of posts about it with the switch to MiniDisplayPort, despite DP being clearly technologically more 'advanced' and futureforward than any previous video out option Apple has ever used.
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post #706 of 1657
If Apple had moved to FW800 (which would then be a bridge to 3200) that would have been defensible.

It has been time to move the entire line to 800 for more than a year.
The reason Apple kept both FW400 and the combo drive around eludes me.
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post #707 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

Those were all upgrades. This dropping a feature of aesthetic design reasons. This is more akin to Apple dropping SCSI and requiring users to rely on the serial port.

Many of us thought that dropping SCSI support for the much slower, much more processor intensive, and much less reliable ATA drives, was a movement to the lowest level amateur PC.

When they later dropped much support for it in the OS (10.3) many of us were pissed, to say the least, because our VERY expensive equipment wouldn't work anymore, and we had to downgrade our computers to 10.2.8, or spend tens of thousands more on new printers, scanners, etc.

THAT's more important than complaining about a $300 external drive.

Most people here can easily manage with their current model for another 6 months, or even a year. The MBP's are not affected, so new purchases there don't matter.

Quite frankly, for those who have their own one person businesses, and where those businesses are their real source of income, rather than mainly a hobby that's pays a bit each year, if you incorporate it properly, you get many benefits that you don't have by accounting your income from the business as personal income, as I get the feeling that many are doing.

One of those benefits is that you can more easily account for a new machine with depreciation, as your accountant will tell you. When done that way, often a MBP will cost not much more than a MB over the time span it's depreciated.
post #708 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiMac View Post

-Until that dies.
-Until that is no longer available


If it's a camcorder that is in question, I doubt an existing tape camcorder will outlast a notebook bought today, if the camcorder gets enough regular use to justify angst over losing the port.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiMac View Post



Are you serious?
That adaptor is shown beside a battery (AAA or equivalent). The FW cable needed to connect to this thing is much larger and I think I could live with 'lugging' that around in my pocket.

Personally, I would recommend getting a cord with both ends rather than a stiff adapter like that to convert one of the ends. The problem I have with adapters like that is that they "extend" leverage, it basically means that the rigid part of the cable sticks out 2x to 5x farther than just a regular cable. The computer is too valuable to increase the risk of ruining the jack.
post #709 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

With what? That USB2 dominated the market even 2 years ago? Done. That eSATA was the emerging new high speed external disk interface? Done.

ok mate - you can look at every second computer and find USB2 - agreed - but that doesn't define domination does it... any more than the fact that Microsoft is on nearly every machine. Ubiquitous doesn't prove anything - or why would you own a Mac and be on a mac forum in the first place?

the fact that people (including Jobs - although i don't think that was his point) are arguing that USB is a substitute for FW means they don't understand the fundamental differences...

and the fact that there is no eSATA interface on any Mac - does that say that it's emerging too well does it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Already did. Vista...no support for FW800 despite promises to do so. Very few FW800 enclosures (RAID or otherwise) in comparison to eSATA enclosures.

FW800 today for most folks (even Pros) is not all that important. There are certainly SOME Pros with a significant use for it but I can see Apple dropping even FW800 in a couple three years and assuming that folks that need it will get an expresscard with it.

like i said i'm going to ignore your vista arguments

...but on FW800 - yes it has been slow to pic up.... but then it's on a number of Macs - and has been for a while (including the latest issue) it may surprise you but many 3rd party companies are sticking with FW400 because it works fine... but I guess the marketing departments of companies like MOTU, SONY, FOCUSRITE, ROLAND, DigiDesign and RME are completely off the planet. Maybe you should write to them and tell them that all their FW400 products released late 2008 are already worthless...

while you're at it, if you could be so kind as to offer an alternative...

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Gee, I guess I must be imagining using my MBP with my Timecapsule on a daily basis. And TC is not blazing as a NAS. Here's a brilliant news flash for you:

Big assed files take a long assed time regardless of technology. When I back up everything to an external drive for offsite storage it goes overnight.

well you might be using it, but you certainly aren't noticing how fast it is because it takes so long you have to go to bed - that's not quite the performance I'm really after...

btw I'M JOKING - not trying to flame you

like i said (and regarding the reading you have a serious case of pot calling kettle) if you're just transferring files one way - then go for it with wifi or USB - like you point out overnight is fine in this case...

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Which part of "most folks" confuse you? Do you believe that the pro-audio crowd is a significant number of folks?

Yes I do actually - of course it's a question of perspective... but then don't believe me - look it up, have a look at the very small petition which has already got around 10k signed up... and then think where it's all headed... how many home studios there are... how many budding video editors jumping on youtube - most of whom want to be mobile and dump hundreds of gigs of footage and audio onto their macs ON THE GO...

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Besides, the number of crappy external drive implementations are far larger than you may think. Also the small external drives like the LaCie Little Disks are slower than heck. Wanna bet that the speed difference isn't all that much?
http://www.barefeats.com/note04.html
SATA sustained reads: 110
FW800 sustained reads: 71
SATA sustained writes: 67
FW800 sustained writes: 49

That's why.

Yeah - got me... again.... dammit
hang on - no you didn't - for MOBILE use what choice have you got ???
GigE and eSATA are not suited for mobile

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Besides, who the hell hot swaps 1 TB RAID arrays? Yes, FW400 is faster than USB2. But who cares with large files sizes? Slow isn't much better than Dog Slow.

who said anything about hot swapping raid arrays - that would be a dumb idea - not to mention heavy to carry around ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Again, since you seem to lack reading comprehension, MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT AUDIO PROS.

thanks for the flame there - I seem to recall that you said;

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

The biggest loss for FW400 for MOST folks is for connecting to FW based video cams.

but then maybe i just thought you misunderstood the issue - it's not just about video cams, it's about a WHOLE AUDIO VISUAL INDUSTRY (sorry for yelling, got a little worked up) - that's right the industry who put mac in front of the masses in the first place...

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Probably not for very long as FW dies.

yes make that call to the marketing department of those companies i mentioned - because you obviously know something they missed... \

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Still reading challenged I see. GigE is useless over a USB2 dongle because you're limted by the USB interface. GigE is VERY useful for notebooks because it's fast and wireless isn't always available/working. When I need to do a large transfer to TimeCapsule I'll plug in directly into the device. This is faster than my FW400 drive.

hmmm that's exactly the case I put forward (regarding ur 3rd sentence - keep GigE for established networks like your TC)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

I have FW800 on my MBP. I use FW400 for my tiny little drive and for my video camera. I use eSATA in my lab. I use 802.11N and gigE to my TC and at work. Which technology do I NOT use?

you don't use eSata on the go...

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

No, I'm comparing technology that's used every day vs ones that only exist on paper.

Yeah, because 90% market share makes Microsoft irrelevant.

90% market share doesn't make Microsoft relevant either...

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

How odd...I use my TC every day, sometimes over GigE. I VPN back to my work shares while at starbucks to get at files I might have forgotten. If I need a multi GB fiile, yes, then I'll bother to plug in my external drive. USB2 or FW400 makes little difference at that point.

which was my point too - we're on the same side on this one - small docs are fine for any current tech... phew we're getting there...

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

For working for real...I'd rather have a eSATA drive sitting in my bag than FW400.

no you wouldn't since you'd have to lug around a power connector as well - unless you wanted to get one that plugged into your USB just to power itself...

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

And yes, you CAN hotplug eSATA given that it's in the SATA II spec if you have AHCI and 10.5.x. Depends on the implementation for the expresscard eSATA how well that really works though...

some points :
- proving anything based on the fact that Microsoft does it won't help your argument on an apple forum (in case u hadn't seen the rather sarcastic ads...)
- feel free to take your eSata drive to anywhere without a power outlet and see how far you get...
- you sound like the type of user who the Macbook is perfect for (not into audio or video at pro speeds, only a few files, willing to transfer files overnight, moving from home network to lab network)

so you can happily purchase the new FW free Macbook
congrats !
here's the link
post #710 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


FW on the other hand has benefits due to the architecture that can't be replicated with an adaptor.

On the principle of negatively affecting the least amount of users and given that laptop users are more likely to use wifi and given that there are adaptors for ethernet, I still think the best choice would have been to use firewire instead.

There is a misunderstanding about FW's performance when compared to that of USB 2 for camcorders.

It doesn't matter when there is just one device on he line (port). Once there is more than one device, in theory, FW works much better.

Sadly enough, even that is not true. For all practical purposes, you must only use one device per port on FW. If you put a HDD AND a camcorder on the same port, strung together the way you are supposed to, it doesn't work. I've tried this over the years, and it's never worked.

As FW 100 was originally proposed for the computer interface, as camcorders use FW 100, obviously FW 400 isn't even needed. As there is only one device on the line, the advantages of FW are unclear, as the entire purpose was to give priority to streaming video and audio over data.

As we can't run data over the FW connection when streaming audio and video is running, there is little, or no advantage.

As to some USB cameras not working well with Macs, well, that's drivers, and most, if not all of those cameras are HD, and the video signal itself, as some camcorder manufacturers don't use standard HD formats, but "roll their own" so to speak.

As far as the driver problem goes though, I remember quite well that JVC and Panasonic Mini Dv cameras didn't work with Macs the first few years either.
post #711 of 1657
He is clearly not living in reality or in the loop of video happenings. The cameras he refers to are sd or hard drive based cameras which still at present make up the minority in cameras. The MAJORITY of cameras still use Firewire and are tape based. JOB's your Liar and uninformed. Get a grip and talk with people who are actually in the know, cause with your statement it is clear you are not
post #712 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by racer162 View Post

He is clearly not living in reality or in the loop of video happenings. The cameras he refers to are sd or hard drive based cameras which still at present make up the minority in cameras. The MAJORITY of cameras still use Firewire and are tape based. JOB's your Liar and uninformed. Get a grip and talk with people who are actually in the know, cause with your statement it is clear you are not

While I'm sure Jobs is a liar (Woz even writes about it in his book), since the MacBook is a consumer-grade computer one could argue that Jobs is talking about consumer-grade cameras. Do the majority of consumer-grade cameras offer USB2.0 alongside or instead of FW400 or is that still a minority of the ones being sold to non-professionals?
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post #713 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Personally, I would recommend getting a cord with both ends rather than a stiff adapter like that to convert one of the ends. The problem I have with adapters like that is that they "extend" leverage, it basically means that the rigid part of the cable sticks out 2x to 5x farther than just a regular cable. The computer is too valuable to increase the risk of ruining the jack.

Exactly!
post #714 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by racer162 View Post

He is clearly not living in reality or in the loop of video happenings. The cameras he refers to are sd or hard drive based cameras which still at present make up the minority in cameras. The MAJORITY of cameras still use Firewire and are tape based. JOB's your Liar and uninformed. Get a grip and talk with people who are actually in the know, cause with your statement it is clear you are not

Since you love to say to Jobs that "your a liar", rather than to say that he might be mistaken, I guess I'll have to call you a liar as well, since you are mistaken.

This is interesting, and supports, at least for those top 20 sellers (except for one) the point Jobs is making.

Read the article. Perhaps you would care to do the work and extend it down to the top 50 sellers.

http://theappleblog.com/2008/10/20/c...ve-jobs-right/
post #715 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I can agree with result from the loss of Firewire. But statements like this is when I feel perspective has been lost of FW true importance.

In the larger scheme of things an I/O port is not all that important. 10 years is a pretty good run as I/O ports don't generally last past that.

Apple is a relative small player in the computer industry. With in that Apple is able to challenge Intel and Nvidia to invent specialized chips and chipsets to improve the Mac's performance beyond that of competitors. Apple is able to optimize the performance of OS X to these specialized components. In the larger picture that is what will impact the Mac user more than one I/O port.

An I/O port or two can be the difference between a sale and and losing out to a competitor. The Macbook is already down on expansion option compared to others in its class. The is no esata, no card reader, and no express card slot. Now there is no firewire. USB 2.0 is inferior to FW400 in drive speed and USB audio equipment is much less capable. In other words, while they might look really cool, in many ways, the new Macbook is an inferior product to the white Macbooks and iBooks that preceded it. You gotta wonder what is the breaking point here. How much can we lose in functionality before the benefit of Mac OS X is no longer worth it?
post #716 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by eatapc View Post

Agree. Many newer camcorders have USB2 connectors, but I wonder how many will allow device control and full bandwidth into iMovie. My Canon HV30 doesn't. Some of the new cameras provide proprietary drivers and software for Windows PCs to enable video transfer via USB, but how will they work with a MacBook? Apologies to Mr. Jobs, but video via USB is a "world of hurt."

Firewire may be going away eventually, but it's much too early to remove it from MacBooks. What about normal consumers with FW DV/HDV cameras and FW hard drives? Unfortunately, the MacBook Pro is now the minimum laptop for regular, non-professional users. MacBooks are for ... who? My mother, maybe. With the world going into a recession, Apple now is saddled with a poorly priced and limited lineup of laptops.

Jobs is really out of touch on this issue. He has always been pig headed but brilliant; now he's pig-headed but flat out wrong.

I decided to bite the bullet and I visited the Canon website. I went through the complete specs and user manuals of every consumer video camera advertised on their website.

Canon does not sell ONE miniDV or tape based camera in the consumer space that DOES NOT REQUIRE Firewire for importing video. All of the miniDV camcorders have a USB port for STILL PICTURES on the SDCard only

The DVD based models and the AVHDC models will import video video via USB.

So my verdict is Steve Jobs is wrong. Just because a camcorder HAS a USB port does not mean it can use it for importing video. Without Firewire you cannot use any Canon consumer miniDV camcorder currently being sold.
post #717 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

While I'm sure Jobs is a liar (Woz even writes about it in his book), since the MacBook is a consumer-grade computer one could argue that Jobs is talking about consumer-grade cameras. Do the majority of consumer-grade cameras offer USB2.0 alongside or instead of FW400 or is that still a minority of the ones being sold to non-professionals?

If he thinks this, Jobs is truly completely out of touch with a large portion of his user base. While Jobs may call the new Macbook a consumer grade machine, it is most certainly not. You're not going to find two many consumer grade users at $1300.
post #718 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

An I/O port or two can be the difference between a sale and and losing out to a competitor. The Macbook is already down on expansion option compared to others in its class. The is no esata, no card reader, and no express card slot. Now there is no firewire. USB 2.0 is inferior to FW400 in drive speed and USB audio equipment is much less capable. In other words, while they might look really cool, in many ways, the new Macbook is an inferior product to the white Macbooks and iBooks that preceded it. You gotta wonder what is the breaking point here. How much can we lose in functionality before the benefit of Mac OS X is no longer worth it?

Can you point to some logical proof outside of your opinion that ports are that important to sales.

I can point to logical proof that faster processors, RAM, GPU, and FSB ultimately add more value to the user experience than ports.
post #719 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

If he thinks this, Jobs is truly completely out of touch with a large portion of his user base. While Jobs may call the new Macbook a consumer grade machine, it is most certainly not. You're not going to find two many consumer grade users at $1300.

Having an average selling price high price that the average selling PC, doesn't mean it's not mainly sold to consumers. There is overwhelming evidence to suggest that it is a consumer-grade notebook.

I assure you that I have only ever been completely and utterly unprofessional on my MacBook.
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post #720 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Can you point to some logical proof outside of your opinion that ports are that important to sales.

I can point to logical proof that faster processors, RAM, GPU, and FSB ultimately add more value to the user experience than ports.

How can I logically prove anything against an irrational faith that apple is always correct?

I could point to sales of the unibook being poor compared to its FW based predecessors in a couple months, but you'd counter with it being either the economy or ill-informed users that don't belong on the Mac anyway.

I could ask people how they use their iBook or Macbook and you'll just counter with it being cheap people who should be paying more for a Macbook Pro anyway.

Then again, what use are the better CPU, GPU, RAM, and chipset if the machine is not capable of performing the tasks you use it for? I'm sure you'll come with an excuse here as well to let apple off the hook.
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