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Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire - Page 20

post #761 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by zanshin View Post

We can blame that one on Jobs, by God... ever since the first NeXT cube with a 128mb MO drive and Jobs wanted everyone to carry their life around in their backpack.

Unfortunately, the ubiquitous 3.5" floppy is not dead... at my house we needed a USB-based floppy drive up until a couple months ago as my wife's $4800 sewing machine used a floppy disk as the only transport mechanism for moving designs from computer to it (hell, the one it replaced used a freakin' serial cable!) The $8000 new model replacement sewing machine finally has a USB port so you can use memory sticks. (And people think MacBooks are too expensive...)

Based on many of the commenters on this board, since you still need a floppy disc, Apple should not have removed it from the line up.

PS: Here is a YouTube vid I posted of Jobs taking the 3.5" floppy in his shirt pocket. He thinks it's a huge deal that it fits in your pocket. So advanced!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KkENSYkMgs (start at 3m:55s)
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post #762 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Inferior to having nothing? It's quite comparable as they were not replaced with another writable media right away. The iMacs only had a CD reader, not a writer.

Also, the MacBook Pros were given an inferior SL-DVD burner instead of the DL-DVD burners that the PowerBooks before them had. And, the ExpressCard addition to the MBP over the PB means all your PCMCIA cards were useless and even if you wanted to buy new ones you couldn't, because they didn't exist.

At the time the Floppy drive was pulled from Apple's iMac, the Zip Drive was very prevelent, and at the time the the iMac was released you could get a USB Zip Drive, but you could also get a USB Floppy drive for around $30, and it worked just like any other floppy drive, but at least you HAD the option, there is no easy reliable option to go to when dumping FireWire, and as I can see it the ONLY advantage USB 2.0 has over FireWire is Cost, and that difference isn't all that great.

Apple didn't include a DL-DVD burner in the first MacBook Pros only because no one made a drive that would fit in the case at that point, but as soon as it was available, they put it back in. PCMCIA cards is not superior to ExpressCards, so that argument does not apply. Most people only used PCMCIA for an external extra monitor (unneeded now that it is built in), or for reading compact flash media.

I'm not in the market for a MacBook, so this isn't a big deal, I just hope it is not a trend that goes to it's other lines. But I think I will predict we will see FireWire back in the MacBook by the next revision.
post #763 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Yeah the move from SCSI was a huge upgrade problem. Downgrade really as it was to a slower interface. But this is exactly the problem, it wasn't nice then and it's not nice now and they didn't really have to do it this time. The ethernet vs FW400 isn't the issue because the old model had both, The FW400 plug needed to be replaced with the new model, instead they just scrapped FW altogether.

I don't think people would mind quite so much if Apple offered guidance on where they go from here. Presumably people are expected to buy cameras like this one:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...pf_rd_i=468294

I would say fair enough, that looks affordable, USB support, HD but hang on Apple, where is the software support for AVCHD? Hmmm, need to upgrade all the software to the latest versions. Mo money:

http://suburbia.org.uk/blog/2007/07/28/175003.html

But then you have to weigh up whether or not you take the money for a FCS upgrade (if you have a lower version or an alternate product) + a new camera and instead just buy a MBP and keep the camera you have.

I think consumers are reaching a point where Apple's choices forcing them to spend so much not only on the machines themselves but on everything else to be compatible are getting tiresome.

I thought iMovie supported AVCHD already. I read that somewhere. I don't use it though, just FCS. Since iMovie, at least the latest version does work with USB, and since USb is on just about all HD camcorders, I would imagine it would support them.

This article from Macworld by Peter Cohen seems to think so.

http://www.macworld.com/article/1362..._firewire.html
post #764 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by mct View Post

My god, I can´t believe that this thread is going on and on and on over 19 pages..
What a typical pointless discussion this is..
Those missing FW in the new MBs: you obviously have a working system that you´re currently using and, considering the demands of today´s music and camera hardware on the MB - it seems to be working to your satisfaction doesn´t it? So don´t go and buy a new camera with FW if you want the new MB.
So if we can all agree that the one rule applying to most computers is : "Never change a running system" (anyone want to prove the contrary?), THEN WHAT THE **** ARE YOU CRYING ABOUT?
Just cause big uncle Steve doesn´t allow you to have the newest, best, MB? If you´re that centered on always having to have the newest, best, whatever, then you are just like all the PC Gamers who buy new graphics cards every 3 months - fanboys, nerds, geeks, what have you. Either shell out the extra cash for the MBP or GROW UP! Standards change. No one is forcing you to buy a new MB, are they? I quite admire Steve and Apple for their bold move. Does anyone have excerpts of the forum posts back when apple dropped the 3.5" floppies? Probably they´ll sound veeeery familiar....

Oh and by the way: I´ll gladly take up an objective discussion with anyone in the music or video business using FW-based hardware, as I´ve been doing so for the last 5 years too.

Dear moderator: pleeeeeease kill this totally unnecessary thread, won´t you?

Why should we kill a thread if so many are enjoying it?

It will die when it's ready.
post #765 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

At the time the Floppy drive was pulled from Apple's iMac, the Zip Drive was very prevelent

It wasn't included. It was an extra cost. People complained that they should have waited until writable CD drives were available.

Quote:
Apple didn't include a DL-DVD burner in the first MacBook Pros only because no one made a drive that would fit in the case at that point, but as soon as it was available, they put it back in.

Almost a year later. So if you wanted an Intel Mac notebook and DL-DVD burner you were being forced to buy a 17" MBP or get an external drive. People complained that they should have waited until a DL-DVD burners were available.

Quote:
PCMCIA cards is not superior to ExpressCards, so that argument does not apply.

I didn't say they were not "superior" tech. Being "superior" in one since doesn't equal usability if their are no cards available. People complained that they should have waited until a 3rd-party EC cards were available.

Quote:
I'm not in the market for a MacBook, so this isn't a big deal, I just hope it is not a trend that goes to it's other lines. But I think I will predict we will see FireWire back in the MacBook by the next revision.

Do you see the trend there? Apple is doing what is best for Apple, not what is best for the short-term needs of a very small group of complainers. I use FW400 and wish it still had it, but you don't see me complaining that Apple is somehow not being Apple or that Apple is doomed.

As for the next revision, if you mean the next speed bump for the new cases, then it absolutely will not be getting FW back in them as I doubt you can find a precedence where Apple has done a major case and MoBo alteration mid-cycle. If you mean, the next case in 3 years, I think that will depend on the success of the FW800/3200 interface port over the next couple years in comparison to other options. It may behoove Apple to include FW3200 in 3 years, only keep it as a 'pro' feature, or get rid of it altogether. To much can happen in 3 years.

For comparison, this time 3 years ago we knew Apple was switching to Intel, but didn't know what the machines would look like or that they would be introduced in just few months, well ahead of schedule. And the very first iPod Nano had just come out the month before, replacing the HDD-based iPod Mini.
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post #766 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Yeah the move from SCSI was a huge upgrade problem. Downgrade really as it was to a slower interface. But this is exactly the problem, it wasn't nice then and it's not nice now and they didn't really have to do it this time. The ethernet vs FW400 isn't the issue because the old model had both, The FW400 plug needed to be replaced with the new model, instead they just scrapped FW altogether.

I don't think people would mind quite so much if Apple offered guidance on where they go from here. Presumably people are expected to buy cameras like this one:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...pf_rd_i=468294

I would say fair enough, that looks affordable, USB support, HD but hang on Apple, where is the software support for AVCHD? Hmmm, need to upgrade all the software to the latest versions. Mo money:

http://suburbia.org.uk/blog/2007/07/28/175003.html

But then you have to weigh up whether or not you take the money for a FCS upgrade (if you have a lower version or an alternate product) + a new camera and instead just buy a MBP and keep the camera you have.

I think consumers are reaching a point where Apple's choices forcing them to spend so much not only on the machines themselves but on everything else to be compatible are getting tiresome.

And that's from a company that used to live up to its "its just works" motto.
post #767 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

There are 20 pages of examples of Apple removing one technology and replacing it with a less usable one. FW400 wasn't even close to the first, and I'm sure it won't be the be last. They don't change their casing mid stream, so the ports you have now are what you'll have for the next 3 years.

Ah!

I'm happy you brought up the port thingie.

I've been giving this some thought, and what I've come up with could be good news.

As we all know, Apple sticks to a particular case design for a long time. I suppose there could be two reasons for that.

The first is that, except for the old 8x00 and 9x00 series machines, Apple's cases have been quite good. Better than that found in the PC industry. No reason to change from a superior design unless you have a better one.

Two is the cost and time factor in designing and manufacturing new cases. It's very expensive to do this.

The reason why is simple. Other than the design process itself, there is the way it's manufactured. And that's the big problem!

All cases are manufactured using several techniques. For the metal parts there is stamping sheet metal. That's not a biggie, and is really cheap to do. But in order to do that, dies must be designed and manufactured for the stampers. Those can cost $250,000 for large versions. Several must be used for different parts of the case, costing different amounts, and it's possible that several may be needed for several stampers. Dies must also be designed and manufactured for the presses to form the metal. Same thing about costs there. Then for portables, has been the precision castings for the interior supports the boards are mounted on. In addition to the design of those, molds must also be designed and tested.

For plastic parts, injection molds must also be designed and manufactured.

This is a costly and time consuming process all around. It can take months.

If a small change, such as a new port, or an adjustment to an opening must be made, either new dies, or molds, or castings, must again be designed and manufactured. That's in addition to the new mobo (which, being electronics is much easier, and cheaper, to do).

Very expensive to make a minor change.

But, now that Apple is machining its laptop cases, things are vastly different!

While it does cost more to manufacture these cases (at least in the beginning), there are many advantages to it.

The main ones we already know. The strength, the simplicity, the ability Apple now has to arrange the interior the way it wants to without having to worry about internal bracing, etc.

But, to me, just as important is the flexibility Apple has gained.

By machining each case (at least the bottom, and most important part), Apple has the ability to make changes on a daily basis (almost). If a redesign in the case is needed, the design can be made, the "G" code written up and downloaded to ONE machine. Then a slab of machinable wax is put into the vise setup and machined. If nothing is wrong, then a billet of Al is inserted, and a case is made.

The design time for the case now takes far longer than getting a real Al sample. No longer do handmade models need to be produced before tooling is manufactured.

If all is needed is a hole for a new port, or an adjusted size hole is needed, it can be designed in the morning (it's a very small detail), the "G" code can be written in the afternoon (again, a small detail), and the next day both the wax, and then the Al case comes back to the design lab.

If all is well, the new codes can be downloaded to all the mills, and the new design can be executed the next day.

Truly revolutionary, just as Jobs said.

No one else, as far as we know is doing this for computer cases.
post #768 of 1657
I wonder if the version of iMovie HD shipped with new MacBooks will include a disclaimer to instructions on connecting with a FW-port, or a compatible camera list reduced to those with USB.
post #769 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

But, now that Apple is machining its laptop cases, things are vastly different!

That is an excellent point!

Quote:
No one else, as far as we know is doing this for computer cases.

I wonder if anyone can follow Apple's lead here, or do they have to many varying machine types without enough bulk sales on the higher-end to make the investment worthwhile.

I'm still holding out for 1394c "FireWire over Ethernet" to be ratified, adopted and implemented... but I don't see Apple adopting it.
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post #770 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

There are 20 pages of examples of Apple removing one technology and replacing it with a less usable one. FW400 wasn't even close to the first, and I'm sure it won't be the be last. They don't change their casing mid stream, so the ports you have now are what you'll have for the next 3 years.



USing your argument, then Panasonic ToughBooks should be cheap, since they use older components with lower performance. Yet, they cost more than comparable machines. Could it be that the production and build quality of a product is a consideration for pricing? What about the materials used? Does glass, aluminium, and being environmentally conscious not cost more than non-biodegradable injection molded plastic case? What about the parts being used? Are you comparing what can go into a 2" notebook with can go into a <1" notebook?

I you're forgetting the first 15" MBP(MA600LL) that came out in May 2006. It only had the one FW400 port. But at the next refresh in October of that same year, which I believe is about 5-6 months, the MBP(MA609LL) had both the FW400 AND FW800 ports. So don't tell me that they don't change their casing mid stream. I'd like to see one FW800 port on the MB and two FW800 on the MBP. And if you check with Mactracker you'll see for yourself.


You might want look into where the ToughBook is produced. I might be made in Japan. Both the MB & MBP are made in CHINA where labor is supposedly dirt cheap. If you don't think so then ask the hundreds of thousands of people who've lost their jobs in this country! It might cost $5-$10 per unit to put the FW ports on the MB & MBP.
post #771 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That is an excellent point!


I wonder if anyone can follow Apple's lead here, or do they have to many varying machine types without enough bulk sales on the higher-end to make the investment worthwhile.

I'm still holding out for 1394c "FireWire over Ethernet" to be ratified, adopted and implemented... but I don't see Apple adopting it.

It's interesting about Apple.

While they sell far less machines than the rest of the industry, in recent years, they likely sell more of any one model (for laptops at least) than almost anyone else, because they have so few models when compared to almost anyone else.

This likely wouldn't pay for most other manufacturers, because they wouldn't want to pay, and charge so much for them. Apple's old cases already usually cost more, other than for possible, carbon fiber cases, assuming they really ARE carbon fiber cases, and not just regular cases with a thin surface of carbon fiber.
post #772 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by dposxfan View Post

I you're forgetting the first 15" MBP(MA600LL) that came out in May 2006. It only had the one FW400 port. But at the next refresh in October of that same year, which I believe is about 5-6 months, the MBP(MA609LL) had both the FW400 AND FW800 ports. So don't tell me that they don't change their casing mid stream. I'd like to see one FW800 port on the MB and two FW800 on the MBP. And if you check with Mactracker you'll see for yourself.

You're right, i did overlook that fact. The 15" MBP was announced in January, shipped in February, and it wasn't until the C2D model in October (8 months later) that saw a FW800 & and DL-DVD burner. Maybe that petition will work after all.

Also according to MacTracker, the previous 15" PowerBooks had FW800 and FW400, so you can chock that up as another example of Apple removing a higher function technology without having anything better and usable to replace it with.
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post #773 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by dposxfan View Post

I you're forgetting the first 15" MBP(MA600LL) that came out in May 2006. It only had the one FW400 port. But at the next refresh in October of that same year, which I believe is about 5-6 months, the MBP(MA609LL) had both the FW400 AND FW800 ports. So don't tell me that they don't change their casing mid stream. I'd like to see one FW800 port on the MB and two FW800 on the MBP. And if you check with Mactracker you'll see for yourself.

That's rare indeed!

At the time FW 800 seemed to be a big deal, but not any longer. It's getting less support as time goes on, and it never had much at its peak. there is no way I can imagine the MB getting it. Apple has always reserved it for their more expensive laptops, and only earlier this year put one on the iMac. If there's enough demand, possibly, 400 may return.

Quote:
You might want look into where the ToughBook is produced. I might be made in Japan. Both the MB & MBP are made in CHINA where labor is supposedly dirt cheap. If you don't think so then ask the hundreds of thousands of people who've lost their jobs in this country! It might cost $5-$10 per unit to put the FW ports on the MB & MBP.

That has nothing to do with it.
post #774 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Inferior to having nothing? It's quite comparable as they were not replaced with another writable media right away. The iMacs only had a CD reader, not a writer.

And Apple publicly admitted missing the boat on CD-R.
post #775 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


At the time FW 800 seemed to be a big deal, but not any longer. It's getting less support as time goes on, and it never had much at its peak. there is no way I can imagine the MB getting it. Apple has always reserved it for their more expensive laptops, and only earlier this year put one on the iMac. If there's enough demand, possibly, 400 may return.



I'm just baffled at the decision to unnecessarily remove FireWire from a $1300 notebook, it just doesn't make sence, and they can only chalk it up to "because I said so" as the reason.

You'll find the demand is definately there. I don't personally know a Mac user that doesn't have a plethora of FireWire Devices they rely on all the time. And the sheer fact that Canon does not have a single MiniDV camera not using FireWire exclusively to import video will push that as well. FireWire just does everything better. I could see if there were some advantages to USB 2.0, but there aren't. Maybe they have something new on the horizon, who knows, I can generally understand where Apple is going with most of their palns, and I am generally out there explaining the logic, but in this case, I am having a hard time...
post #776 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

I'm just baffled at the decision to unnecessarily remove FireWire from a $1300 notebook, it just doesn't make sence, and they can only chalk it up to "because I said so" as the reason.

You'll find the demand is definately there. I don't personally know a Mac user that doesn't have a plethora of FireWire Devices they rely on all the time. And the sheer fact that Canon does not have a single MiniDV camera not using FireWire exclusively to import video will push that as well. FireWire just does everything better. I could see if there were some advantages to USB 2.0, but there aren't. Maybe they have something new on the horizon, who knows, I can generally understand where Apple is going with most of their palns, and I am generally out there explaining the logic, but in this case, I am having a hard time...

Even a worse decision is to include FW800 and not FW400 in the MBP - most Cameras and prof. audio interfaces, as well as external harddrives usw FW400. But, you could Apple know that?

To all the people who claim FW is too expensive to built in: How come that a Western Digital harddrive with FW (and eSATA, bei the way) is only 15 more expensive than a naked USB 2.0 version? They have to include an additional controller, sockets, have to pay license fees etc....?

In general what makes me think:

So far we had two very distinctive lines of MBs and MBPs and the ultra-portable Air.

Now it's only one design left...? One fits all? Added by a desktop range of iMacs which now look like blown-up Macbooks with a desktop stand...?

Is THIS really all Apple is able to offer?
post #777 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


Also according to MacTracker, the previous 15" PowerBooks had FW800 and FW400, so you can chock that up as another example of Apple removing a higher function technology without having anything better and usable to replace it with.

No you can't... all FireWire 800 and FireWire 400 devices work fine together, the only thing you need is a cable to change the pinout, (no adapter is required to change the signal itself) Not to mention that there still aren't any devices taking advantage of the FW800 speeds anyway. In every case where Apple has transitioned to something else, you still have an (inexpensive) option to get you by, SCSI was the last real tough one that required you to replace all your peripherals (hard disks, scanners, tape drives, printers and even CNC Machines) And during this transition, many opted to try the 3rd party G3 upgrade cards, just to continue using those SCSI devices until better options came along, or until they slowly replaced tens of thousands of dollars in equipment (in some cases 3 years down the road).

I've been through all the transistions as I have had a Mac since 1984 (Had a Lisa too) and I am a bit concerned about this transition personally since I hae so much invested in FireWire, and since I still am not finding the USB 2.0 "equivalents" to be totally acceptable. They are just not as bulletproof as FireWire.
post #778 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zauner View Post

Even a worse decision is to include FW800 and not FW400 in the MBP - most Cameras and prof. audio interfaces, as well as external harddrives usw FW400. But, you could Apple know that?

Well, at least FW800 and FW400 are completely compatible, you only need to change the cable.
post #779 of 1657
As others have said before, removing FW400 and putting only a FW800 port on the MacBook would have been perfectly fine. In fact, that should have been done across the line a year ago.

The fact that the FW800 port could have been easily converted to FW3200 next year is gravy.

Sadly, we're now left wondering what the future is for Firewire on the Mac, while people ask for card slots, eSata and ethernet alternatives. Apple could have been basking over its greatest lead in notebook design ever, instead of having everyone distracted with this nonsense.
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post #780 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

No you can't... all FireWire 800 and FireWire 400 devices work fine together...

It's half the speed. It was a drop in functionality and usability over the previous release. It wasn't the other way around, with Apple leaving in FW800, but removing FW400. How can you even be arguing that FW400 offers the same functionality of FW800?
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post #781 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It's half the speed. It was a drop in functionality and usability over the previous release. It wasn't the other way around, with Apple leaving in FW800, but removing FW400. How can you even be arguing that FW400 offers the same functionality of FW800?

The new MBP has FW800, which is the faster version of the protocol.
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post #782 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

The new MBP has FW800, which is the faster version of the protocol.

I'm well aware of that.
This is about Roehlstation stating that Apple's removal of FW800 from the first 8 months 15" MBPs is not another example of Apple taking a step backwards in functionality, because they still maintained FW400. He stated that "all FireWire 800 and FireWire 400 devices work fine together" in his rebuttal. Hench my comment about FW400 being half the speed of FW800, ths a step backwards in functionality over the previous 15" PowerBooks, that had a FW800 -AND- a FW400 port.
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post #783 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I'm well aware of that.
This is about Roehlstation stating that Apple's removal of FW800 from the first 8 months 15" MBPs is not another example of Apple taking a step backwards in functionality, because they still maintained FW400. He stated that "all FireWire 800 and FireWire 400 devices work fine together" in his rebuttal. Hench my comment about FW400 being half the speed of FW800, ths a step backwards in functionality over the previous 15" PowerBooks, that had a FW800 -AND- a FW400 port.

It's not about having FW400 & FW800, it's about having two FW ports. How about two FW800 ports on the MBP and one on the MB. Or even a FW800 & a FW3200 on the MBP.
post #784 of 1657
If Firewire wasn't important

We wouldn't have an 800 page thread about it in a week. I've give Solipsism credit here
he's hanging in there and debating the affirmative tirelessly.

You know we can create all the anecdotes we need. Hell we can justify anything we want with enough time.

My problem is that many Macbook owners looking to upgrade or people looking for their first Apple notebook ever wanted the type of laptop that pushed the envelope further. The Alu case did just that but not even maturing the connecitivy featureset of the last Macbook is a downer. The preceding Macbooks were righ on that line of giving you enough options. Since Apple doesn't appear to believe in any kind of expansion we had 3 wired choices for connectivity. USB, FW and Ethernet. Now we're down to two and frankly a lot of important peripherals not cannot be accessed.

I too, fail to understand why this was allowed to happen. But then again Apple has been like a derelict parent to FW loving it one minute neglecting it the next becoming one of the more irritating idiosyncrasy of Apple apropos their "focus".

Apple could never be an Enterprise company because they simply will not follow a path and stick to that path. They'll announce a product and then whimsically cut that product with a meek "sorry" and move on. They are as unpredictable as they are bound to secrecy.

The glue that keeps this all together is Steve Jobs. Typically he can smooth over these rough transitions with moxy and passion but Appe writes checks even Jobs' ass can't cover.

The Macbook FW removal is one such issue. Not even Jobs can explain this one to the point where it makes sense. He has not been progressive with adding anything substantive to replace FW and that is why Mac users are railing. We see a withdrawal from our computing bank account without the hopes of a deposit coming. That's a loss anyway you take it.
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post #785 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It's half the speed. It was a drop in functionality and usability over the previous release. It wasn't the other way around, with Apple leaving in FW800, but removing FW400. How can you even be arguing that FW400 offers the same functionality of FW800?

At least it offers functionality, I CAN STILL USE MY PERIPHERALS, it does not require me to replace them. A FireWire 400 drive will still work with a FireWire 800 port. You'd be hard pressed to find a FireWire 800 device that produces results that are twice as fast as the 400 anyway, you might gain a little speed, but in most cases, the bridge between the FW800 and the IDE hard disk isn't 800 mbits. By dropping one of the FW ports it does not render all those peripherals useless, you can still use them. By dropping both ports, I now have a desk full of paperweights.
post #786 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I'm well aware of that.
This is about Roehlstation stating that Apple's removal of FW800 from the first 8 months 15" MBPs is not another example of Apple taking a step backwards in functionality, because they still maintained FW400. He stated that "all FireWire 800 and FireWire 400 devices work fine together" in his rebuttal. Hench my comment about FW400 being half the speed of FW800, ths a step backwards in functionality over the previous 15" PowerBooks, that had a FW800 -AND- a FW400 port.

I didn't say that at all. I don't even consider a difference between the 800 and the 400 because we've not seen an 800 device actually perform to 800. Either one is better than having ONLY USB 2.0 as an option.

I don't care if it is 400, 800, or 3200, leave at least 1 freaking FireWire port, we can easily work around the 400/800 conversion that is cake. There are no options if ALL FW is removed.
post #787 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It's half the speed. It was a drop in functionality and usability over the previous release. It wasn't the other way around, with Apple leaving in FW800, but removing FW400. How can you even be arguing that FW400 offers the same functionality of FW800?

It's half the speed that still outperforms USB 2.0 in every way.
post #788 of 1657
I'm glad to see that the discussion is still alive.

I feel that those of us who feel strongly about getting FW back should continue to voice our opinions.
right now my 13" macBook still works, but I dread the day I might have to replace it for something bigger. which will mean I'll have to replace my shoulder bag, my backpack, my camera bag, my music hardware case, and the set up of my studio as well. the cost of this combined with the minimum of 700 euro extra costs for the macBook itself is just outrageous.
my other choice is to stick with the 13" format (which I would prefer), but that will render my pro video camera, several audio interfaces and one of my harddrives useless. and to replace those would be even more expensive than option one.

yes I know the whiteBook has firewire, but that is just a clearance sale, it will be gone in a couple of months, plus if I HAVE to get a new one, I'd love to finally have my graphics card up to par with modern times. it was a hard enough decision as it was when I bought my blackBook, as I was weighing out the pro's and con's of size, price and video card.
post #789 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

I'm just baffled at the decision to unnecessarily remove FireWire from a $1300 notebook, it just doesn't make sence, and they can only chalk it up to "because I said so" as the reason.

You'll find the demand is definately there. I don't personally know a Mac user that doesn't have a plethora of FireWire Devices they rely on all the time. And the sheer fact that Canon does not have a single MiniDV camera not using FireWire exclusively to import video will push that as well. FireWire just does everything better. I could see if there were some advantages to USB 2.0, but there aren't. Maybe they have something new on the horizon, who knows, I can generally understand where Apple is going with most of their palns, and I am generally out there explaining the logic, but in this case, I am having a hard time...

Demand for 400, to an extent, yes.
post #790 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zauner View Post

Even a worse decision is to include FW800 and not FW400 in the MBP - most Cameras and prof. audio interfaces, as well as external harddrives usw FW400. But, you could Apple know that?

To all the people who claim FW is too expensive to built in: How come that a Western Digital harddrive with FW (and eSATA, bei the way) is only 15 more expensive than a naked USB 2.0 version? They have to include an additional controller, sockets, have to pay license fees etc....?

In general what makes me think:

So far we had two very distinctive lines of MBs and MBPs and the ultra-portable Air.

Now it's only one design left...? One fits all? Added by a desktop range of iMacs which now look like blown-up Macbooks with a desktop stand...?

Is THIS really all Apple is able to offer?

Nothing wrong with just 800. a simple cable with 800 on one end and 400 on the other is all you need.
post #791 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by pooped View Post

I'm glad to see that the discussion is still alive.

I feel that those of us who feel strongly about getting FW back should continue to voice our opinions.
right now my 13" macBook still works, but I dread the day I might have to replace it for something bigger. which will mean I'll have to replace my shoulder bag, my backpack, my camera bag, my music hardware case, and the set up of my studio as well. the cost of this combined with the minimum of 700 euro extra costs for the macBook itself is just outrageous.
my other choice is to stick with the 13" format (which I would prefer), but that will render my pro video camera, several audio interfaces and one of my harddrives useless. and to replace those would be even more expensive than option one.

yes I know the whiteBook has firewire, but that is just a clearance sale, it will be gone in a couple of months, plus if I HAVE to get a new one, I'd love to finally have my graphics card up to par with modern times. it was a hard enough decision as it was when I bought my blackBook, as I was weighing out the pro's and con's of size, price and video card.

I hate to point it but this is not the right channel to make your voice heard. I suggest you to go to www.apple.com/support and post or reply to one of the many topics about the matter. That way you ensure that your voice can be heard by the right people. Also if you are "extreme" about the thing, I saw on the Apple Store that some people is making reviews of the new macbook and pointing the FW shortcoming. I do not endorse the last but if it really eating your guts from the inside go for it.
post #792 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by dposxfan View Post

It's not about having FW400 & FW800, it's about having two FW ports. How about two FW800 ports on the MBP and one on the MB. Or even a FW800 & a FW3200 on the MBP.

Forget 3200. It's not likely that Apple will support it, and I can't think of a singlereason they should.

FW is now on the dying edge, before, it was on the bleeding edge.

In a year, there will no longer be a need for it.

Look, Apple never properly supported it. Once they saw they wouldn't be able to get the 25¢ per port licensing fees they were counting on, they lost interest. And that was many years ago. Since then they've supported it reluctantly.

800 was 18 months late. 1600 should have been here almost 18 months ago, and 3200 should have been here already.

These delays have cost it leadership.

Now, USB 3 and Power Over SATA will take over in 2009.

It will take a bit of time to completely fade away, but it's already started.
post #793 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post

I hate to point it but this is not the right channel to make your voice heard. I suggest you to go to www.apple.com/support and post or reply to one of the many topics about the matter. That way you ensure that your voice can be heard by the right people. Also if you are "extreme" about the thing, I saw on the Apple Store that some people is making reviews of the new macbook and pointing the FW shortcoming. I do not endorse the last but if it really eating your guts from the inside go for it.

hmmm.
the last thing I heard is that apple deleted those threads, so they are back up?
I did send in the apple support form and mailed steve personally, but so far I didn't get a reply yet
post #794 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Forget 3200. It's not likely that Apple will support it, and I can't think of a singlereason they should.

FW is now on the dying edge, before, it was on the bleeding edge.

In a year, there will no longer be a need for it.

Look, Apple never properly supported it. Once they saw they wouldn't be able to get the 25¢ per port licensing fees they were counting on, they lost interest. And that was many years ago. Since then they've supported it reluctantly.

800 was 18 months late. 1600 should have been here almost 18 months ago, and 3200 should have been here already.

These delays have cost it leadership.

Now, USB 3 and Power Over SATA will take over in 2009.

It will take a bit of time to completely fade away, but it's already started.


That is fine, but we're not there yet. At this point it just looks like an arbitraty decision, if you are going to dump the FireWire, then you'd better put something on there to make up for it, especially if you aren't going to lower the price on the system.
post #795 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

That is fine, but we're not there yet. At this point it just looks like an arbitraty decision, if you are going to dump the FireWire, then you'd better put something on there to make up for it, especially if you aren't going to lower the price on the system.

I think they should have waited. But perhaps the new replacements are being delayed, and Apple had engineering reasons why they couldn't get FW back in. Who knows?
post #796 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Forget 3200. It's not likely that Apple will support it, and I can't think of a singlereason they should.

FW is now on the dying edge, before, it was on the bleeding edge.

In a year, there will no longer be a need for it.

Look, Apple never properly supported it. Once they saw they wouldn't be able to get the 25¢ per port licensing fees they were counting on, they lost interest. And that was many years ago. Since then they've supported it reluctantly.

800 was 18 months late. 1600 should have been here almost 18 months ago, and 3200 should have been here already.

These delays have cost it leadership.

Now, USB 3 and Power Over SATA will take over in 2009.

It will take a bit of time to completely fade away, but it's already started.

there are many reason why firewire should be (and hopefully will be) supported by everyone !
I'm not convinced that USB3 or ESata can take over...

while I don't know too much about USB 3 architecture there is a massive difference between all current wired 'mobile' connections

GigE - peer-to-peer architecture but no power
Firewire - peer-to-peer with power up to 45 W
USB2 - host controlled and power limited (5V at 500 mA = 2.5W = two plugs often needed)
ESata - host controlled only no power available (some take power from USB but most need much more than that to even work = you have to plug your HDD in to the wall at starbucks !!?)

everyone spouting about how good ESata is should realise that this was only ever designed to connect to mass storage
so it's no replacement for the peer-to-peer functionality of Firewire or GigE
...but yes it is very fast if you're just transferring files - and if you can plug in to a power socket.

so Firewire is currently the only peer-to-peer type network connection that can power devices...

also, remember that to get the blazing speeds that USB 3 is promising they have to integrate an optical connection - which will be expensive and potentially fragile (for cables at least)
post #797 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

not convinced that USB3 or ESata can take over...

while I don't know too much about USB 3 architecture there is a massive difference between all current wired 'mobile' connections

GigE - peer-to-peer architecture but no power
Firewire - peer-to-peer with power up to 45 W
USB2 - host controlled and power limited (5V at 500 mA = 2.5W = two plugs often needed)
ESata - host controlled only no power available (some take power from USB but most need much more than that to even work = you have to plug your HDD in to the wall at starbucks !!?)

everyone spouting about how good ESata is should realise that this was only ever designed to connect to mass storage - so it's no replacement for the peer-to-peer functionality of Firewire or GigE - but yes it is very fast if you're just transferring files.

so Firewire is currently the only peer-to-peer network that can power devices...

also, remember that to get the blazing speeds that USB 3 is promising they're going to integrate an optical connection - which will be expensive and potentially fragile (for cables at least)

Then you should go back and read some more posts where it's explained.

Nah, I'll explain it for the fifth time.

USB 3 isn't really USB as we know it. It's much more like FW. It's called USB because it supports legacy products. It's plenty fast, faster than FW 3200 will be. It's 4,800. It uses optical and copper. Making adapters for Fw 400 and 800 will be fairly easy.

The cables won't be fragile. It won't cost that much either.

Do you remember SCSI? The best cables for the faster standards cost about $150. Stop complaining!

Power Over SATA is exactly what it looks like, E-SATA with power.

Now, you need to hook it to either FW or USB to get power, fine for small and medium drives. This will allow more.
post #798 of 1657
USB 3 devices won't be here till 2010.

Power Over SATA - to my knowledge - doesn't have a firm release date yet.
(And you really have to wonder what they're going to do about that acronym.)

FW800 remains the best choice TODAY for hard drive expansion, supplied power over bus, audio & video bandwidth and more. Leaving it out was an extremely boneheaded move.
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post #799 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Then you should go back and read some more posts where it's explained.

Nah, I'll explain it for the fifth time.

USB 3 isn't really USB as we know it. It's much more like FW. It's called USB because it supports legacy products. It's plenty fast, faster than FW 3200 will be. It's 4,800. It uses optical and copper. Making adapters for Fw 400 and 800 will be fairly easy.

The cables won't be fragile. It won't cost that much either.

Do you remember SCSI? The best cables for the faster standards cost about $150. Stop complaining!

Power Over SATA is exactly what it looks like, E-SATA with power.

Now, you need to hook it to either FW or USB to get power, fine for small and medium drives. This will allow more.

you haven't explained anything
"it's much more like firewire" ???

USB3 is still host controlled - it's not all about speed.
check this if you need help understanding that there will still be a difference and we won't just be able to plug in an adapter and get all our firewire devices to work...
firewire-s3200-vs-usb-3

again Esata with power (even if they figure that out to work on a single port) is not peer to peer.... it's host controlled and is only good for storage devices...
post #800 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

USB 3 devices won't be here till 2010.

Power Over SATA - to my knowledge - doesn't have a firm release date yet.
(And you really have to wonder what they're going to do about that acronym.)

FW800 remains the best choice TODAY for hard drive expansion, supplied power over bus, audio & video bandwidth and more. Leaving it out was an extremely boneheaded move.

Both are expected in 2009 from what I've been hearing. First silicon for POSATA (I guess that's it) has come out, and is in the testing stage. Supposedly USB 3 is coming close to that stage. They had a prototype running in September 2007.
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