Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire - Page 3

I've just wrote a message to Apple complaining about that.

We can all do the same.


http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html

Well, it does work fine with supported camcorders, yes. Unfortunately this does not include all models on the market, not even all models from the top 5 manufacturers (and it gets even worse with camcorders using optical media). This might/should improve in the future, but going back to a point where we have to check each and every device for OS X compatibiliy before making a purchase is not really progress, or?!

Until less than a year ago MiniDV-based camcorders where the only safe choice for Apple users, any other consumer accessible/affordable technology was not remotely supported under Tiger, iLife 06 and older FCP/FCE versions. Whenever MS causes compatibility issues the Apple crowd is all over it, when Apple releases a 1,600 USD laptop (with 600 USD features) that breaks compatibility with existing and expensive equipment you can be sure the fanboys will call it an innovation, just like the "a miracle" cheering crowd in the Life of Brian.

OK, let's say 2% of the users use Firewire (I think 2% is pretty close).

It adds $10 to the machine.

Does it make sense to make everyone pay $10 extra, so the 2% save $500?

If you're not whining, why don't you address the point I made in that post rather than trying to nit-pick my choice of words... which is so dangerously close to whining \

And that is affecting you NOW.

The iPods have gotten bigger and now it is taking you longer and longer to move your content to it over that slow USB connection.

Its not Apple's fault camera manufacturers refuse to standardize their video formats. Create all kinds of crazy proprietary codecs to lock you into their system.


This has nothing to do with Apple. DV is a standard codec that every camera manufacturer abided by. Just because someone decides to go down their own path doesn't mean Apple needs to support them.

Those defending Apple's decision to drop firewire from the new Macbook are missing the point that Apple has(maybe had now) customers with money in hand ready to buy new Macbooks but simply want firewire on there as well. Instead Apple offers up to people to downgrade to lowerend Macbook(old model of course), upgrade video equipment if video is the reason, and/or upgrade to new Macbook Pro.....or change platforms.

With those options Apple is actually reducing their chances of keeping customers doing consumer video or gaining new ones. Of course I believe with Apple's growing popularity with college kids Apple has chosen to be singleminded toward their greatest customer base and dismiss their reputation they gained over the years as one that provides solutions. They are now truly showing their colors with becoming a consumer company that just wants to ship what's hot. It makes one wonder if iLife will be getting anywhere near as much attention as in the past....hmmm...I think we've already seen this happening.

Of course looking at the big picture now many wonder where firewire stands with Mac mini's and iMacs. What Apple has failed to realize is that those with firewire cameras that they are not peripherals like a floppy drive but real devices that are able to interact with computers if needed. Most consumers don't like to upgrade such devices so often whereas they do with computers. Nice going Apple! Now you've just pushed more customers away and reduced sales even more.

All in all this had to happen at some point but it's now way too early. Apple provided no means of a transition to a solution they provided for their new Macbooks.

For what it's worth yeah I was one of these customers that had money in hand. If it wasn't for the fact that Apple offered a refurb last gen 15" Macbook Pro for $1349, I was seriously contemplating another platform for my home/personal use. Lucky for me I actually think I've come out ahead in this game unless Apple does something at the OS level down the road that negatively affects the advantages I have with the Macbook Pro I just ordered over the new gen Macbook I was going to order.

Apple is regardless making a number of good decisions to get their growth like they have but with the way a number of things have been over the last year for Apple(mobileme and iphone rollout, quality issues, etc) I can't help but think they're growing too fast and can't see the forest for the trees. They're honestly beginning to make MS look consumer friendly.

No it's NOT.

Mac OS X has had support for UVC since 10.4.9 and iMovie 08 supports UVC camcorders too.

Sorry i am totally lost........ Someone please explain to me.

The Macbook no longer has Firewire, and only Macbook Pro have Firewire,
Firewire has always been more expensive and more professional look to it.

So if you want professional port for professional job you want a professional macbook. The Macbook Pro.

So what is the big deal?

You can afford to buy Professional Expensive Camcorder, and not afford to buy a Macbook Pro?
It is not Apple completely drop Firewire from all range of their product.

If you want an Professional Mini Notebook then it is a different Story. But that is the problem apple doesn't have Mini Pro Notebook. Which is like they dont have xMac.

And i forgot to mention we have USB 3.0 coming in less then 12 months time.

See, that's not even the issue for Apple. Because obviously, Apple wasn't going to sell the Macbooks for $1309 and $1609 to include FireWire... that's not how Apple products are priced. It had to be $1299 and $1599.


Which means adding FW, however much that would've cost, would have been entirely a relative "loss" for Apple.


Let's say Apple sells a ballpark 7 million units of these in the next year. That's a $70 million relative loss for Apple.


So the question that needs to be asked is "Do you expect Apple to bite hard and swallow a $70 million loss for a port that 2% of users will ever use?"

No this is incorrect. Justification on whether is should exist or not is subjective to each and every one of us. Even if we forget that all preceding Macbooks had Firewire the majority of people would probably prefer to have a more inclusive computer.

In short since there's no hard cost associated with FW most people would choose to have it rather than forgo on the benefits.

The anecdotal stories are nice but how many people can really articulate the differences between the two technologies in order to make a decision on the relative value?

That must be the same 2% that actually put cards into the slots of a MacPro.

Yet Apple still hasn't made a small, powerful tower that can be used by people who just want a fast computer with as many cores as are available.

How much cheaper would a small tower be to make?

Slower perhaps but tell me how many systems have firewire and no usb in their default configurations? At least that transition still allowed for use of the ipods with systems shipped in default configurations.

Apple's brain fart of a choice with their Macbook gives no such option if you have a consumer level camera that requires firewire to interact with a computer.

I have a Macbook, 2 Macbook Pros, 3 MacPros, 2 iMacs, 1 Mac Mini, 1 eMac, 1 PowerMac G5.

It wont kill me to replace or buy a new Macbook Pro casue the firewrire, but since I don't live in USA and my cost is $ 350 to $400 more for the US price. I was hoping to use the new Macbook for support cause I wont get a hearattack if it gets stollen or broken.
It made more sense for me to get a new Macbook since its way more powerful anc close to a MacBook Pro and use it for support. That way I could try to boot from mine when diagnose another Mac over a customers office or residence, etc etc etc.

I will end acquiring the 2.55 MBP even if cost me 1150 more compared to a MacBook since I can't use the MBP's cause they serve as forensic machines. It will hurt my pocket but doesn't change the fact that for the first time I felt letdown by Apple cause I understand how a lot of USERS feel. At the end the firewire no thingy on the new Macbook affect mostly USERS not switchers that will start to discover OS X wonders.

I actually guess that adding firewire to such smaller machine will affect energy management and motherboard design, it makes sense for the "target" but then I probably would loved have axed a usb port than a FW one.

Sorry, I was too unspecific - I meant it is not there for consumer budgets.

I love P2 (and my HVX), but it is not at all consumer technology and while it works great in news gathering (short shots), its usefulness dwindles a bit when doing long shots in the field. Getting 8 minutes of footage on a 1200 USD card is getting painful at some point (prices may be a bit lower by now, I bought the HVX the moment it was released). If you re-use cards in the field after capturing you have no back-up, if you want a backup you have to carry another hard drive (if one is enough)... I have done that and there are really still some applications where tape has its advantages.

And you can't settle for a $1000 refurb 2.4GHz white Macbook or $999 lowend Macbook new, why again?

i find it disappointing that they've omitted fw, but can understand the reasons behind it. i hope that a decent work-around is found in the near future...

if ppl need a new macbook with fw, definitely jump at the model from 48 hours ago, it will last you til you have to replace your fw peripherals if not longer.


as they didn't, it's completely pointless to ask.

The transfer is just a matter of copying files; capturing from tape is different. That's what we're all complaining about.

And that's the underlying concept here: Apple sees videotape going away. (And it is.) If you're camera isn't tape-based, then FW is unnecessary.

What's annoying for my family is that the purchase of a new MacBook requires the purchase of a new file-based video camera. (I just bought a Canon HV30 because I prefer everything being archived on mini-DV tape.) This is a dumb move for Apple given the recession. How many people want to buy a new camera because they can't use their current one with a MacBook?

Apple: Just put a freaking ExpressCard slot on the MacBook and we'll all shut up.

So I'm guessing you think that displayport is going to be greater than 2% on a Macbook? What about the altered headphone jack just so people with iphone headphones can now use the clicker? How about the new trackpad? The previous one worked pretty damn good. Do you really think very many percentagewise will be using the new gesture features?

I've defended Apple in the past in arguments regarding their reputation of form over function but in the case of the Macbook, there is no argument. They blew it with one of their (previous?)core customer bases.

Actually I am extremely familiar with this kind of equipment and deal with it on a daily basis. I have for years.

[QUOTE=dreyfus2;1324984] 2) I cannot carry a Mac Pro, Mini or iMac around in my video backpack which weighs 80 lbs already.[ /quote]this is the most lame, BS excuse I have heard so far.


More complete BS.


I am not familiar with the HV20 and HV30, we don't use Canon stuff where I work as it's too junky and unreliable for the most part and the HV20 is not just "consumer level" it's listed by most reviewers as "cheap." I note they both have USB ports though. I assume you will argue that USB is only for still images or whatever, but then you say you use the HV20 which would certainly fall into the "older camera" category I mentioned earlier.

Whether or not you can find, or in fact already use a camera that only has FireWire doesn't invalidate the main point being made though. I see different kinds of cameras daily at my work and I'm the guy that helps them get the video out of the camera and into the computer. The bulk of the consumer market has moved to USB. It has. The only firewire only camera I've seen for ages is an old Sony Hi8.

I don't personally like it, I like FireWire actually. I am disappointed it isn't in the MacBook for the much more important reason that FireWire target mode will no longer be possible, but the whole camera "thing" is just not a valid argument as far as I'm concerned.

it goes like this:

• Consumer level: cheap USB camera, MacBook, iMovie
• Pro level: goddamn expensive FireWire camera, MacBook Pro, Final Cut

Both of these points are wrong. UVC-DV devices require no additional drivers on the Mac. And there is more than adequate bandwidth for multiple HD streams before even coming close to USB's typical throughput.

Wait a minute. You just acknowledged that the Macbook no longer has Firewire. I'm assuming that you are
aware that the Macbook has always been a consumer focused machine. If so your next statement which says
"Fireware has always been more expensive and more professional look to it" would seem incongruent with
your previous admission that "The Macbook no longer has Firewire".

My camcorder was $259 and has Firewire. iMovie has supported Firewire consumer camcorders for years. You seem
to be artificially creating this Firewire=Professional link when none exists. I can only surmise that it is you creating
a strawman to argue against. Firewire has never been limited to Professional applications and that is very evident.

USB 3.0 is nice but it doesn't help those with the millions of FW enabled devices now nor does it add value to a current
Macbook that now has no FW.

I've never used an ExpressCard slot before, so I couldn't imagine that the crowd they make the Macbook for would either.

Well, first of all, I don't believe that only 2% of Mac Pro users utilize PCI-E slots; you know I used to be a tower user, when they still cost less than $2000 for the lower and mid-range systems. Now, Mac Pros are, precisely "Pro" machines, period. It makes little sense to buy one and not maximize its potential.

Second, and this is related to this thread. The reason there isn't a small tower is pretty much the same reason the new Macbooks don't have FW -- the market research that Apple has been conducting tells them that there just isn't a big enough market for small towers/FireWire ports to make them viable options in their line up.


Yes, it really is as simple as that.

What exactly is this crowd? Expresscard is a fixture on %80 of the PC laptops out there. It is the key to expansion that replaced Cardbus (PCMCIA)

What makes a Mac user any more impervious to technological change than a PC person?

How do I add eSATA to my Macbook?
How do I add Firewire to my Macbook?
How do I add other networking options to my Macbook?

That's right..I don't. It's a closed box that has become even more closed.

http://www.amazon.com/Multimedia-Rea...4212218&sr=8-1



Why are we always paying a premium yet we have to shell out more money to make our Macs function?

I did not mean to say Apple has to support everything on the market (might be impossible), but they should not drop support for something that is proven to work fine under all circumstances, especially since the existing user base must have thousands if not millions of still perfectly usable devices using that standard.


Again, I did not say that. Fact is, if you had walked to a Genius Bar just one week ago and told them you intend to buy a camcorder and plan to buy an Apple laptop in the near future - there is a 100% chance that they would have recommended a tape based MiniDV camcorder with a FW interface - they made this very same recommendation for years (and it made sense, other formats were having severe problems with Apple software for ages). Even today they still feature Apogee audio interfaces prominently under resources for Logic on Apple's web page... Firewire devices. I consider making recommendations to customers to buy highly expensive stuff and making it incompatible/unsupported at the same time no good business practise. In addition they have sold (and continue to sell) quite a bit of this now unsupported stuff in their own stores... this is nowhere illegal but it smells rather bad.

Intel OWNS USB.
Apple OWNS Firewire.

This debate goes back to the 80's and early 90's. Apple created FW. They did NOT want to license it to PC makers to give Apple an edge. The edge really was their ability to work with creative works, not the FW part.

Later in our story... Intel now a complete package developer on the hardware front. From CPU to the board itself was including USB 1.1. Firewire cards worth buying cost upwards of $300. Intel builds upon 1.1 and develops version 2. Now Intel license the rights to use 2.0 to companys making billions of boards a year (not a lie here, billions in the 90's-not just motherboards either). Intel charges .01 per port, Apple charges a lot more. USB becomes cheaper and easier to implement and is reliable, thus the it becomes standard on 99% of what sells, PC's. Apple see's USB 1.1 as a great way to decrease the amount of chips and controllers it needs and adopts it into the iMac's in 1997, iBooks, etc... It was originally designed to replace PS/2 (An IBM development named after the PS/2 line of computers BTW).

So here we are. Firewire starts taking off because Mac's take off. People now realize that even 480mbps USB VS 400mbps Firewire LOOKS faster but in reality is half the speed. Firewire takes off in the video market because HD content coming across USB is 4Ever in the making.

Apple dropping Firewire from the 13" isn't a low blow. It's still avail in the MacBook Classic. but it does differentiate the pro and the consumer machines. If your a pro you get a pro machine. If you can deal with USB then the 13" is OK. Look at the size between them. Look at the resolutions. The MacBook is NOT HD. If your working with HD and take your video work seriously you should be using an HD system ala MacBook Pro. That's just the end to end reality of it. The portability argument is over, their size is not much difference and the weight is near identical. 2" in one direction, 1" in another.

In fact the 15" pro FITS in my 13.3" MacBook Bag.

Given everything the new Book got, it lost one small item that I'd guess more than 70% of the owners never used. Yea it's a sad day for some.

EDIT: Looking at the new logic board for the 13"... There's no room left for Firewire....

Once again I agree with you... this is absolutely nuts. These new laptops are a disgrace. I'm happy they achieved their environmental goals, but a lot of us were screwed in the process.

Also you can power devices with firewire...

Displayport is used by maybe 0.1% of the users right now. However, it is forward looking - meaning (at least Apple thinks) most users will move to Displayport over the next 2 to 3 years.

Apple is not always right on new technologies. Remember ADC?

However, Apple is almost always right on phasing out old technologies - the ones they got rid of (and got complaints for every single one of them) include NuBus, SCSI, ADB, floppy, and even two processor families: 680x0 and PowerPC.

Among all the technologies which mattered, I would think the two CPU changes and SCSI had way more impact on all users (pro and consumers alike) than FW. FW usage is limited to DV camcorders and storage (and most external HD has both USB and FW). When Apple got rid of SCSI, almost EVERY Mac add-on uses it (except few used ADB), including HD, scanner, even some printers.

1394, on the other hand, is backward looking. Currently, maybe 2% use it. In 2 years, maybe 0.1%.

Gesture...I would say yes, once people know about it, most people will use it.

And I will make even more prediction - Apple WILL get rid of ethernet in the next couple of years, and people will be upset. Then, after 3 months, nobody will care.

Who buys a $20,000 camcorder and doesnt want to dish out an extra $400-700 for the MacBook Pro, which still has a firewire port

Why that is the most idiotic statement yet. Why is everyone so up in arms about this decision that Apple has made about this? Most of the people who buy these entry level "Consumer" grade computers don't need firewire. If you are one of those people who need it, cough up the extra money and get a MacBook Pro. Otherwise, I'm SURE there will be a market that opens up for PCI Express cards JUST for the macbooks to allow for the firewire.

Keep in mind, Apple caters to the majority, if you are a hardcore Music maker or a videophile, get a refurbished macbook or upgrade and get the MacBook macdaddy Pro.

If you are still pissed enough to ditch your mac and go get a DELL, well have a nice day. That grass is definitely NOT greener, as a matter of fact, it's a yard full of rocks and crab grass.

LanPhantom

the HV20 is a consumer-level camera, but it is a good camera - especially when you add a cinevate 35mm adapter. it produces some stunning images. this is a popular set-up for indy film-makers.

that said, i would expect said indy film-makers to be cutting HD on a desktop system, or mbp (or equivalent pc notebook) rather than a macbook. however it's a shame that the macbook isn't an option for this anymore, considering that it has been otherwise beefed-up.

Stupid comparisons.

Display port: you cannot NOT have a video out port; the core customer -- college students -- often absolutely need it for PowerPoint presentations, etc.

Headphone jacks: FireWire, clearly, at least in the consumer arena, is a wilting technology. iPhone is a booming one. You can bet your LIFE that there will be more iPhone users (or potential iPhone users) that will be using the new Macbooks than there are FireWire affecionados.

Trackpad: again, new technology brings in new users. Dying technology may retain a few old timers, but will not bring in new users. And just so you know, I'm typing this on a new Macbook and even though I've been a Mac user for a decade and a half and I've owned dozens of FireWire peripherals in the past, but I'm not at all surprised or overly annoyed that FW is not on this laptop (the only time I used the FW port in my previous 2006 Macbook was when I transferred over data from my 12" PowerBook G4 I had before that -- this time, I just swapped the HDD ;-). In the mean time, am I using 4 finger Exposé? You bet.

Bullshit.

xMac would reduce revenues because people want it for a bit more expandability than what the iMac offers and the ability to source a non-Apple monitor.

Macbook sans FW had to happen because Apple could/would not design a "Pro" laptop that actually had Pro features. They new that discrete GPU, larger screen and more upgradablity would not be enough to sway would be Macbook purchasers once the Macbook went aluminum.

If Firewire wasn't viable Apple and Apogee would not have jointly developed the Ensemble and Duet audio interfaces

http://www.apogeedigital.com/news/?p=45

September 07 was the announce date for Duet. It's abusurd to think that in the last year the prospects for Firewire became so dim that Apple suddenly saw them as inviable.

1) DisplayPort has no disadvantage over the various DVI versions Apple was using. It'll be cheaper as ALL Macs will have the exact same port, the licensing free, it's highly scalable and robust which make it very future forward.

2) What about the extra contact on the headphone jack for the Mic? that is smart as their headphones can now be used for VoIP. This saves money on buying and carrying an extra headset. Regular headphones still work, too, and I'd bet the cost for the user is negligible.

3) The new Trackpad allows you to be more productive. How is that bad? I think it's a precursor to having a visual feedback on the trackpad itself in the future, too.

4) Which core customer base is blown? The ones that want/need FW400, but don't want to pay $2k for a MBP or degrade themselves with an older style MB or MBP, or use their current machine, or ever buy a new video camera? I'm sorry that you and others* aren't getting what you want, but the customer base you mention is probably barely a blip on Apple's radar.

* Note that I currently use FW400 daily, but I will get through this somehow, someway. Perhaps someone should start a FireWire Anonymous (FWA) group.

You've just hit upon the crux of the issue. The Macbook was a good computer for field recording and ingesting of video. Much like the MPAA and RIAA consider an illegally downloaded song a "missing CD album" sale ..Apple must be looking at each Macbook sale as a potential Macbook Pro sale that didn't happen.

Removing FW from the Macbook removes that ability and pushes people towards the MBP. It's a benefit to Apple but does nothing for people.

Is it wrong for a consumer to seek a financial benefit and work towards their own best self interest?

Sorry for getting off topic, but ... the Canons have been the very highly rated and are far from "junky." The HV30 is the current "top of the heap" for consumer HDV cameras. In fact, many pro videographers use them because of the exceptional picture quality and HDV port -- great for high def green screen. I'd even go so far as to say they have a cult following. http://www.hv20.com/index.php

There's no need to "argue that USB is for still images or whatever." The USB is indeed for still files only. The Canons, like all tape-based cameras (AFAIK), require Firewire.

HV30 is a *current* model. HV20 was last year's model, not something from five years ago. I haven't seen or read about any HDV camcorder that could transfer video over USB.

edit: It looks like Sony's HDR-HC9 can transfer DV/HDV video over USB, which is news to me on the format.

It's funny, because when the MacBook Pros adopted EC and dropped PCMCIA, EC support on non-Mac notebooks was nearly zero and there were no ECs that allowed for the same types of functionality that PCMCIA had at the time. I wonder what percentage EC would have if Apple hadn't adopted it until PCMCIA was no longer the popular?

Remember the outcry about dropping PCMCIA? This thread reminds me a lot of that, except there are more alternatives in place for the removal of FW than there were for the removal of PCMCIA.

I don't know what the big deal is. The MacBook is obviously an entry level system designed for students, average consumers that don't need tons of horsepower or don't have the $$$ for a Pro-level computer. Firewire is usually meant for Pro level hardware. since Firewire 800 is backwards compatible, I can totally understand why Apple yanked Firewire on the MacBook and only put Firewire 800 on the MacBook Pro. Most devices have either USB 2 or USB 2 and FIrewire 400 or 800 on external drives, etc., etc. Only the higher end devices are going to have FIrewire 800 and thus are more expensive Prosumer or Professional items that the user is going to have the money for a MacBook Pro.

In a perfect world, we would have a 4 core 3GHz processor, 1GB of video memory, 16GB of the fastest RAM, a 15K RPM terabyte drive or a terabyte of SSD storage, two FIrewire 3200 ports, 2 USB 2 ports, 10 GB ethernet, 802.11x which does 10GB wireless and a 17 Full HD screen, etc. and all for $500. Until then, dream on.

Enjoy what is out there and save your $$$ if you want to MacBook Pro. I just wish they had the 17 inch ready, but I guess they have to wait until they ring out all of the bugs in the production line.