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Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire - Page 21

post #801 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Forget 3200. It's not likely that Apple will support it, and I can't think of a singlereason they should.

FW is now on the dying edge, before, it was on the bleeding edge.

In a year, there will no longer be a need for it.

Look, Apple never properly supported it. Once they saw they wouldn't be able to get the 25¢ per port licensing fees they were counting on, they lost interest. And that was many years ago. Since then they've supported it reluctantly.

800 was 18 months late. 1600 should have been here almost 18 months ago, and 3200 should have been here already.

These delays have cost it leadership.

Now, USB 3 and Power Over SATA will take over in 2009.

It will take a bit of time to completely fade away, but it's already started.


I can think of one reason. Device to Device communication. There won't be a need for FW3.2Gpbs if computer users continue to
settle for lowest common denominator tech.

Apple, like most corporations, seek profits and will only entertain the idea of developing new technology if significant profits are attainable. It is here where I am at odds with Capitalism. Once companies become slaves to shareholders/Wall Street innovation and progressive movement forward is only ventured with profit potential in tow. Apple did not want to invest in the Firewire as you said ..not because it wasn't not worthy but because they could not see the profit potential.

Apple could have supported:

HAVI
www.havi.org

HANA
http://www.hanaalliance.org/

mLAN
http://www.yamahasynth.com/products/mlan/index.html

All use Firewire at some level...all could have been supported via Apple as a testament to the instrinsic benefits of a peer to peer, realtime smart connection.

Though remember...the Apple "dream" was that they would change the world. Steve Jobs recruited John Sculley from Pepsi by asking him "do you want to sell sugar water your whole life or change the world?"


Steve should heed his own advice.
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post #802 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

you haven't explained anything
"it's much more like firewire" ???

USB3 is still host controlled - it's not all about speed.
check this if you need help understanding that there will still be a difference and we won't just be able to plug in an adapter and get all our firewire devices to work...
firewire-s3200-vs-usb-3

again Esata with power (even if they figure that out to work on a single port) is not peer to peer.... it's host controlled and is only good for storage devices...

Well, cripes!!! Look it up if that's not enough to give you an idea, which is all I was doing.

We know what E-SATA does. It's far better for drives than FW ever was, or could be.

I read that article ages ago, and it says nothing except that it's wrong about cable lengths. FW cables can be 15 feet long, about the same as USB 2. For both, you need repeaters. USB 3 isn't as bus intensive as USB 2, and it doesn't matter anyway. That mattered years ago with single cpu's that were, slow, along with a slow bus. It's trivial today.
post #803 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

you haven't explained anything
"it's much more like firewire" ???

USB3 is still host controlled - it's not all about speed.
check this if you need help understanding that there will still be a difference and we won't just be able to plug in an adapter and get all our firewire devices to work...
firewire-s3200-vs-usb-3

again Esata with power (even if they figure that out to work on a single port) is not peer to peer.... it's host controlled and is only good for storage devices...

The only way USB 3 is like FireWire is that it is Bi-Directional, (that is where they are getting a big speed increase) but because it is host controled, it still relies on the processor to direct the traffic, also means it is all controlled through the drivers rather than through the peer itself. Just leave me my FireWire, (also cooler marketing name). I think I'm going to have to make "Save FireWire" T-Shirts.
post #804 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

We know what E-SATA does. It's far better for drives than FW ever was, or could be.

True, but it also means having a port on the computer just for hard drive expansion.
FW is far more flexible, while being almost as fast.
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post #805 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Well, cripes!!! Look it up if that's not enough to give you an idea, which is all I was doing.

We know what E-SATA does. It's far better for drives than FW ever was, or could be.

no probs

but if you had to choose a connection for the 2009 macbook upgrade (here's hoping)
what would you prefer ?

remember that you can only choose one
(since apple's gone all cheap and nasty on us... )
post #806 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

The only way USB 3 is like FireWire is that it is Bi-Directional, (that is where they are getting a big speed increase) but because it is host controled, it still relies on the processor to direct the traffic, also means it is all controlled through the drivers rather than through the peer itself. Just leave me my FireWire, (also cooler marketing name). I think I'm going to have to make "Save FireWire" T-Shirts.

It makes no difference whatsoever. The only time that matters is if you connect two FW devices together without a host computer.

does that matter when you are using your Mac? No. Besides, USB 3 offloads more from the host. It also uses a newer controller.

http://arstechnica.com/journals/hard...xhci-goes-gold
post #807 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

True, but it also means having a port on the computer just for hard drive expansion.
FW is far more flexible, while being almost as fast.

As we never had one before?

FW 800 is slow baby!

The best it can do is 80MB/s, and it never gets to that, maybe 70-72. But, SATA 3.0 can get a new drive all the way to its 165MB/s maximum, and has room for several more. With port sharing you can get to 750MB/s on a RAID. Try that with FW.
post #808 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

no probs

but if you had to choose a connection for the 2009 macbook upgrade (here's hoping)
what would you prefer ?

remember that you can only choose one
(since apple's gone all cheap and nasty on us... )

USB 3. It's the most versatile, and it's fast.
post #809 of 1657
Guys, how many of you were around in 1990? do you remember reading about USB? The standard was published in 1989.

1989!

That was before Windows 3.1. Hell, it was before Windows 3.0.

Remember where the Mac was then?

At the time, the Mac had a 20 MHz bus, and the PC had an 8 MHz bus.

It was long before both the Pentium and the PPC.

Having audio and video wasn't on the minds of the designers. Just getting mice to work was.

In fact, until Apple got it working in the first iMacs, it didn't really work at all. MS and Intel finally got it to work in Windows 98 Service Pack II.

That was about the time FW was announced.

FW got around the need for a computer host because computers were still too slow to work reliably, and they had bigger plans for it.

Computers are just a bit faster today. It no longer matters.

I remember when FW was announced as part of the HDTV specification. a lot of jumping around, hands clapping, faces getting red kind of thing in the Mac community. Ow wow! So cool, Apple is just going to CONTROL HDTV. Dreams, dreams, dreams.

Well, today, where's that FW on HDTV? I'll tell you, it's not. Very few HDTV's ever did have it, and pretty much none today.

Cable boxes had it, but today, what do most have? USB 2 and E-SATA. unless you still have an old one (about two years).

Soon, all anyone will be able to connect their camcorders up to will be another camcorder. And, hey, that's just what was intended. Camcorder to camcorder FW editing. Sheesh! I tried that once. Once! Never again. What a DUMB idea!

So yeah. I do think Apple moved too fast on this one, but they have the right idea. Before you know it, it will be gone.

Most of Sony's new cameras have USB 2. Once their older ones are discontinued next year, they too will start dropping iLink from their computers. They and Apple are by far, the biggest supporters of this. And Apple is already moving on. Sony won't be far behind.
post #810 of 1657
Mel, I think you're arguing the wrong point here.

If Apple decides that USB3 is superior tech to whatever Firewire can implement in the same timeframe, I'm happy to jump onboard.

I have multiple FW hard drives that need to be converted and other peripherals that will need upgrading. And I'm happy to do it.

But don't tell me to jump sideways. USB 2.0 is a downgrade in performance, and we all know that.
USB 3.0 isn't slated to debut until 'late-2009', at the earliest. Which means 2010 until all the bugs are worked out.

Similarly, eSATA might be an excellent choice for Time Machine hookups, but Apple hasn't adopted that either.

Leaving FW800 on the MacBook for one more year would not have hurt anyone. Removing it has damaged Apple's reputation for higher-end tech, and angered users for no good reason.
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post #811 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Mel, I think you're arguing the wrong point here.

If Apple decides that USB3 is superior tech to whatever Firewire can implement in the same timeframe, I'm happy to jump onboard.

I have multiple FW hard drives that need to be converted and other peripherals that will need upgrading. And I'm happy to do it.

But don't tell me to jump sideways. USB 2.0 is a downgrade in performance, and we all know that.
USB 3.0 isn't slated to debut until 'late-2009', at the earliest. Which means 2010 until all the bugs are worked out.

Similarly, eSATA might be an excellent choice for Time Machine hookups, but Apple hasn't adopted that either.

Leaving FW800 on the MacBook for one more year would not have hurt anyone. Removing it has damaged Apple's reputation for higher-end tech, and angered users for no good reason.

Frank, I'm not telling you that, am I?

This will be the, what 6th or 10th time I'm saying that I think Apple jumped the gun on this?

I agree!!

I'm just saying that I understand, from their point of view, why they did it. Which is different.

As an ex-manufacturer, I can see the other side.
post #812 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Guys, how many of you were around in 1990? do you remember reading about USB? The standard was published in 1989.

1989!

That was before Windows 3.1. Hell, it was before Windows 3.0.

Remember where the Mac was then?

At the time, the Mac had a 20 MHz bus, and the PC had an 8 MHz bus.

It was long before both the Pentium and the PPC.

Having audio and video wasn't on the minds of the designers. Just getting mice to work was.

In fact, until Apple got it working in the first iMacs, it didn't really work at all. MS and Intel finally got it to work in Windows 98 Service Pack II.

That was about the time FW was announced.

FW got around the need for a computer host because computers were still too slow to work reliably, and they had bigger plans for it.

Computers are just a bit faster today. It no longer matters.

I remember when FW was announced as part of the HDTV specification. a lot of jumping around, hands clapping, faces getting red kind of thing in the Mac community. Ow wow! So cool, Apple is just going to CONTROL HDTV. Dreams, dreams, dreams.

Well, today, where's that FW on HDTV? I'll tell you, it's not. Very few HDTV's ever did have it, and pretty much none today.

Cable boxes had it, but today, what do most have? USB 2 and E-SATA. unless you still have an old one (about two years).

Soon, all anyone will be able to connect their camcorders up to will be another camcorder. And, hey, that's just what was intended. Camcorder to camcorder FW editing. Sheesh! I tried that once. Once! Never again. What a DUMB idea!

So yeah. I do think Apple moved too fast on this one, but they have the right idea. Before you know it, it will be gone.

Most of Sony's new cameras have USB 2. Once their older ones are discontinued next year, they too will start dropping iLink from their computers. They and Apple are by far, the biggest supporters of this. And Apple is already moving on. Sony won't be far behind.

some good points here and yes the CPU speeds have increased
but it's not only about speed
it's about devices being allowed to both control themselves and be controlled
when on the same network

i'm using one right now (Focusrite Liquid Mix) to finish producing an album
a device that is specifically designed to work in parallel with the main computer
(a great option for adding to CPU power on non-expandable mobile machines)
post #813 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Frank, I'm not telling you that, am I?

This will be the, what 6th or 10th time I'm saying that I think Apple jumped the gun on this?

I agree!!

I'm just saying that I understand, from their point of view, why they did it. Which is different.

As an ex-manufacturer, I can see the other side.

But that's the thing. I don't see why they did it.

It ticks off users and adds no benefit.
It marginalizes their own interface without adopting a better standard (yet.)
It removes the awe of the new design process with grumbling about a Mac's 'lack of features'.

The only plus I can see is that it shaved a bit of engineering time and a few cents off the MacBook price.
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post #814 of 1657
BTW, the earnings call is going on now. Hopefully someone will ask Jobs about Firewire's future.
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post #815 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

BTW, the earnings call is going on now. Hopefully someone will ask Jobs about Firewire's future.

Or ask why with a billion dollars in profit they feel the need to reduce features in their products. I love to see a company profit but damn....there is a line between healthy profitability and outright greed. Apple's treading that line precariously.
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post #816 of 1657
actually bing in theindustry i am up on whati speak of are you? or are you one who just reads alot?
I can speak he is more than mistakin he's lian. you want to call me a liar you should know me first. but are you man enough?
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Since you love to say to Jobs that "your a liar", rather than to say that he might be mistaken, I guess I'll have to call you a liar as well, since you are mistaken.

This is interesting, and supports, at least for those top 20 sellers (except for one) the point Jobs is making.

Read the article. Perhaps you would care to do the work and extend it down to the top 50 sellers.

http://theappleblog.com/2008/10/20/c...ve-jobs-right/
post #817 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

some good points here and yes the CPU speeds have increased
but it's not only about speed
it's about devices being allowed to both control themselves and be controlled
when on the same network

i'm using one right now (Focusrite Liquid Mix) to finish producing an album
a device that is specifically designed to work in parallel with the main computer
(a great option for adding to CPU power on non-expandable mobile machines)

Sure, there are some pro device that use FW. I have a few myself. But, you know what? They will do it other ways. They always do. After all the yelling, and stamping of feet is done, people get to work, and straighten it out.

Yes, I know people will need to get new devices. But, sooner or later, they will be getting them anyway. At some point, the current ones won't be supported by their manufacturers. "Sorry, our current product line doesn't support Firewire, would you like to upgrade to our new USB 3 model?".

We went through this with SCSI.

We'll always go through it.
post #818 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Sure, there are some pro device that use FW. I have a few myself. But, you know what? They will do it other ways. They always do. After all the yelling, and stamping of feet is done, people get to work, and straighten it out.

Yes, I know people will need to get new devices. But, sooner or later, they will be getting them anyway. At some point, the current ones won't be supported by their manufacturers. "Sorry, our current product line doesn't support Firewire, would you like to upgrade to our new USB 3 model?".

We went through this with SCSI.

We'll always go through it.

yes i agree with the concept and unfortunately/fortunately that does happen
and expensive items need replacing

except that no one has given the future alternative (if it's not firewire or GigE)
because unfortunately USB3 can't do what firewire can - it's limited by being host controlled
(even if the limits are less apparent than USB2 due to increased CPU/bus speeds)

and other than saying "it's on it's way out" as a if it's written in the stars somewhere
no one can give a good reason why it should go
there's FW3200 and FW6400 just around the corner (at speeds faster than USB3 / GigE)
but there isn't a limit to the technology, concept or connectors
only perhaps bad support and high charges from the inventors \
post #819 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by racer162 View Post

actually bing in theindustry i am up on whati speak of are you? or are you one who just reads alot?
I can speak he is more than mistakin he's lian. you want to call me a liar you should know me first. but are you man enough?

What?
post #820 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

yes i agree with the concept and unfortunately/fortunately that does happen
and expensive items need replacing

except that no one has given the future alternative (if it's not firewire or GigE)
because unfortunately USB3 can't do what firewire can - it's limited by being host controlled
(even if the limits are less apparent than USB2 due to increased CPU/bus speeds)

and other than saying "it's on it's way out" as a if it's written in the stars somewhere
no one can give a good reason why it should go
there's FW3200 and FW6400 just around the corner (at speeds faster than USB3 / GigE)
but there isn't a limit to the technology, concept or connectors
only perhaps bad support and high charges from the inventors \

I don't think we'll have a problem. Cpu's are cheap. A bit more local intelligence will take care of it. After all, if my toaster has a cpu, and my microwave has one, and my HDTV is run on Linux, then there's no problem.

I wouldn't worry.
post #821 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Nah, I'll explain it for the fifth time.

USB 3 isn't really USB as we know it. It's much more like FW. It's called USB because it supports legacy products. It's plenty fast, faster than FW 3200 will be. It's 4,800. It uses optical and copper. Making adapters for Fw 400 and 800 will be fairly easy.

Mel, for all the admiration i have for your posts here, i think sometimes you express your knowledge with less clarity than some of us need. In this instance, the poster you were responding to itemized specific shortcomings of various connectivity methods. Your response (above) might have addressed them satisfactorily to YOU, but it didn't solve it for me, and i suspect not for others either, which is why they keep coming back with more questions, and frustrating you because you have to explain it for the fifth time!

So: Are you saying USB 3 will provide all the functionality people get with f/w and are missing because of its absence? Peer to peer, powered, miniDV camcorder connectivity, etc? If so, that's great, and i wish you'd said so. And if so, that USB 3 will be available when, most likely? When will the fw 400/800 adapters be available--adapters which, if i read you correctly, will be necessary before USB 3 can support legacy fw products, if that's a correct way of expressing it?

If it won't replace all those functions in all those ways, then even with the new hardware in 12-18 months, we'll have lost functionality, won't we?

Maybe here's the pertinent question: When apple dropped SCSI, or any of those other earlier techniques, did they replace them with an alternative immediately? Or 12-18 months later? (I don't know, that's a genuine question)
post #822 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It makes no difference whatsoever. The only time that matters is if you connect two FW devices together without a host computer.

does that matter when you are using your Mac? No. Besides, USB 3 offloads more from the host. It also uses a newer controller.

http://arstechnica.com/journals/hard...xhci-goes-gold

This means USB hubs are still required. What a pain.
post #823 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

This means USB hubs are still required. What a pain.

It kind of makes me wonder when we're going to move away from serial technologies like Firewire and USB and move back to parallel technology. I think serial technology by design is difficult to fan out without Hubs or daisychain without issues.

I look for the next decade to bring back parallel technology but at microfraction of what the former parallel technology took in size and with speed commensurate with the times. Then perhaps we'll have a bus that can properly handle multiple devices without puking.
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post #824 of 1657
No analysts asked about Firewire. What a useless bunch of know nothings.

This question and answer, however, is puzzling...

From MacCentral:

2:49 PT - Q: Should we continue to see more affordable price points across Mac and iPhone lines going forward?

2:50 PT - Steve Jobs: Deliver an increasing level of value. “We don’t know how to make a $500 computer that’s not a piece of junk and our DNA will not let us ship that.” But can continue to deliver greater and greater value to the customers they do serve. They’ll stick with that winning strategy by adding more value in the customer bases they serve.


Can someone explain to me how wrapping a computer in Aluminium and removing the Firewire port adds up to more value to the consumer?
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post #825 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

No analysts asked about Firewire. What a useless bunch of know nothings.

Can someone explain to me how wrapping a computer in Aluminium and removing the Firewire port adds up to more value to the consumer?

My expectations are very low for the mediatards out here covering Tech and Politics. They just comply the same "Dog n Pony" show and regurgitate the spin or RDF that they see. This is why those that aren't buying into the hype must speak up.

Someone should have asked about Apple's longstanding tradition of appealing to creative individuals and what their recent actions imply for that particular group.
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post #826 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


So yeah. I do think Apple moved too fast on this one, but they have the right idea. Before you know it, it will be gone.

Most of Sony's new cameras have USB 2. Once their older ones are discontinued next year, they too will start dropping iLink from their computers. They and Apple are by far, the biggest supporters of this. And Apple is already moving on. Sony won't be far behind.

I admire really your knowledge about the field and I follow your posts with pleasure. I learned a lot during your last posts!

I understand, if Sony changes their specs and delivers their camcorders and notebooks with usb, because they want sell their new products. But Apple built up a good reputation in the movie and music industry and exactly these guys are unsetteled, if apple will be the right partner in the future (Avid, ProTools also running on Windows). They are using cams and interfaces with FW. They won't throw away their equipment because Apple changes their specs. They will look for alternatives. As long Apple supports their Equipment it's ok, but if not they will change and Apple will loose shares in the market. !!!???
post #827 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Can someone explain to me how wrapping a computer in Aluminium and removing the Firewire port adds up to more value to the consumer?

The new case is enormously more rigid, reducing the case flex that caused all the broken connections and circuit-board traces that's caused the decline in reliability Apple has been experiencing in recent years. Of course, everybody else's laptops have suffered the same problems, but nobody expects them to last more than a year or two, anyway. So yeah, people with that kind of mindset can't see increased reliability and longevity as a "value." That's what sets Apple apart.
post #828 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Can someone explain to me how wrapping a computer in Aluminium and removing the Firewire port adds up to more value to the consumer?

• Greener construction
• Better, more durable construction
• Most customers aren't paying for an interface they will never use (or even heard of)
• Larger, more usable trackpad w/associated drivers
• Faster graphics
• Future-forward video out capable of pushing DL-DVI bandwidth, and then some.
• Backlit LED display that is 33% brighter, instant-on, and will last longer
• Backlit keyboard

If the lack of FW bothers you, there is a $999 and $1999 Mac notebook that have them
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post #829 of 1657
By the way, does anybody but me find it ridiculous that Apple, one of the most successful companies in the world, exceeding expectations quarter after quarter and year after year, have to go hat in hand to Wall Street, the guys who've driven the economy off a cliff, pleading: "did we do all right, huh, please say yes, pretty please!"

Shouldn't it be the other way around? Of course, Apple must be doing something wrong, because the taxpayers don't have to cover their losses. So Wall Street wins again.
post #830 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

It kind of makes me wonder when we're going to move away from serial technologies like Firewire and USB and move back to parallel technology. I think serial technology by design is difficult to fan out without Hubs or daisychain without issues.

I look for the next decade to bring back parallel technology but at microfraction of what the former parallel technology took in size and with speed commensurate with the times. Then perhaps we'll have a bus that can properly handle multiple devices without puking.

A move back to parallel wired connections won't happen--serial wired connections have been replacing parallel for some time. That's one of the things that the move from SCSI to Firewire, USB, and SATA was about--serial means thinner cables, simpler electronics, etc. To be a proper substitute for parallel, serial was made faster, or potentially faster, and that speed increase continues in newer designs. One of the main problems with Apple dropping Firewire on the Air and new Macbook, was that they did it before its replacements--USB 3, etc.--were ready.

Another factor in Firewire's demise, is that it wasn't developed at Intel, nor supported by them very much, and Apple wants to go with Intel for as much of its chipsets as possible, mainly for better pricing, but also to rely on fewer companies for development of the chips Apple uses--it streamlines Apple's development process.

Here's an old article that still has some relevant info on where Apple went wrong with Firewire, and some of the reasons why their dumb decisions resulted in Apple phasing out Firewire:

http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1104
post #831 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtdunham View Post

Mel, for all the admiration i have for your posts here, i think sometimes you express your knowledge with less clarity than some of us need. In this instance, the poster you were responding to itemized specific shortcomings of various connectivity methods. Your response (above) might have addressed them satisfactorily to YOU, but it didn't solve it for me, and i suspect not for others either, which is why they keep coming back with more questions, and frustrating you because you have to explain it for the fifth time!

So: Are you saying USB 3 will provide all the functionality people get with f/w and are missing because of its absence? Peer to peer, powered, miniDV camcorder connectivity, etc? If so, that's great, and i wish you'd said so. And if so, that USB 3 will be available when, most likely? When will the fw 400/800 adapters be available--adapters which, if i read you correctly, will be necessary before USB 3 can support legacy fw products, if that's a correct way of expressing it?

If it won't replace all those functions in all those ways, then even with the new hardware in 12-18 months, we'll have lost functionality, won't we?

Maybe here's the pertinent question: When apple dropped SCSI, or any of those other earlier techniques, did they replace them with an alternative immediately? Or 12-18 months later? (I don't know, that's a genuine question)

Sorry, often when I go into detail, I'm told that it's too much.

Twothings that I can say right off is that it won't continuously poll devices as 2 and earlier do. That qill enable a drastically higher percentage of the bandwidth tobe used.

Another is the ability to host "virtual machines". this will allow direct contact and communication with other devices without software intervention, which is much closer to the way FW does it. these things also reduce power consumption a good deal.

It still needs a host, but the virtual machine will allow communication beyween devices as well, which can't be done now.

I'm looking for a good technical link that describes some of the functions in detail, but I'm not finding anything useful so far. Some of the pages contain inaccurate information, and often quote each other.

I'm still looking.

Most seem to think that both Fw3200 and USB 3 will arrive sometime in 2009, though, as usual, a few are more conservative.

It's interesting that some computers already have the new USB 3 ports, though without the extra pins, or onboard controller.

This shows that companies are eager to use this, as they are already doing the tooling for the cases! Here's just one:

http://www.everythingusb.com/asus-m50-14144.html

This is interesting too:

http://www.everythingusb.com/expresscard-14403.html

I can't find anything about Express FW3200 yet.

Unfortunately, the best tech site appears to be Intel's, and you can't get to the specs without signing an agreement. I thought I would take a try, but after I read it, I decided not to. It would have taken some time before it became valid anyway.

Some of what I know I can relate, but I'd like to back it up with a "good" link, so that it won't be open to argument.

I've been told that due to the changes, FW over USB 3 should be viable, unlike the current adapters poor compatibility with much more than drives and other more one way devices., but without a link, I can't prove it.

Often, the same results can be managed with different technologies. we used to control these things with 232 or above.
post #832 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

This means USB hubs are still required. What a pain.

Don't forget that we also use FW hubs for pretty much the same reason.

In theory, you shouldn't need them for either standard, but that's theory.
post #833 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

It kind of makes me wonder when we're going to move away from serial technologies like Firewire and USB and move back to parallel technology. I think serial technology by design is difficult to fan out without Hubs or daisychain without issues.

I look for the next decade to bring back parallel technology but at microfraction of what the former parallel technology took in size and with speed commensurate with the times. Then perhaps we'll have a bus that can properly handle multiple devices without puking.

We have, in a way.

Express bus is a serial bus with multiple serial connections running in parallel.
post #834 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

No analysts asked about Firewire. What a useless bunch of know nothings.

This question and answer, however, is puzzling...

From MacCentral:

2:49 PT - Q: Should we continue to see more affordable price points across Mac and iPhone lines going forward?

2:50 PT - Steve Jobs: Deliver an increasing level of value. “We don’t know how to make a $500 computer that’s not a piece of junk and our DNA will not let us ship that.” But can continue to deliver greater and greater value to the customers they do serve. They’ll stick with that winning strategy by adding more value in the customer bases they serve.


Can someone explain to me how wrapping a computer in Aluminium and removing the Firewire port adds up to more value to the consumer?

You would have to ask the consumer. We're too crazy to count.

About the new cases.

I was posting earlier about that in relation to ports.

Using CNC machinery to manufacture these cases gives Apple the ability to quickly amend a design, or come out with a new one in record time.

I don't think anyone else will be able to do that.

Look at Asus putting USB 3 connectors on some new models. Only the USB 2 part works now, but they likely don't want to change the case over the next year of longer, so they did the opening now, and put a half dummy connector in.
post #835 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by sambamac View Post

I admire really your knowledge about the field and I follow your posts with pleasure. I learned a lot during your last posts!

I understand, if Sony changes their specs and delivers their camcorders and notebooks with usb, because they want sell their new products. But Apple built up a good reputation in the movie and music industry and exactly these guys are unsetteled, if apple will be the right partner in the future (Avid, ProTools also running on Windows). They are using cams and interfaces with FW. They won't throw away their equipment because Apple changes their specs. They will look for alternatives. As long Apple supports their Equipment it's ok, but if not they will change and Apple will loose shares in the market. !!!???

The last to go will be the Pro machines. I guess it's even possible that Apple MIGHT put FW1600 on their machines, as this is expected to arrive first.

Then, even if Apple does eliminate it in the MBP, the Express slot, as I linked to above will have Fw 400 and 800 as usual, and also USB3 and ESATA available.

But, I suspect that the manufacturers of pro equipment aren't crying about this, they are already working to see how they can work around it. If they want to continue to sell their equipment, they will figure out how to do it.

Don't forget Ethernet 10Gb is around the corner for our machines as well. It's already out (too expensive now), and there's now a Power Over Ethernet spec as well.

We will have a plethora of interfaces to choose from.
post #836 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by sambamac View Post

I admire really your knowledge about the field and I follow your posts with pleasure. I learned a lot during your last posts!

I understand, if Sony changes their specs and delivers their camcorders and notebooks with usb, because they want sell their new products. But Apple built up a good reputation in the movie and music industry and exactly these guys are unsetteled, if apple will be the right partner in the future (Avid, ProTools also running on Windows). They are using cams and interfaces with FW. They won't throw away their equipment because Apple changes their specs. They will look for alternatives. As long Apple supports their Equipment it's ok, but if not they will change and Apple will loose shares in the market. !!!???

Yup! Apple is taking a bit of a risk there, no doubt. One I would have preferred they didn't take.

But, you know, this will make the manufacturers think hard about this. They will be more inclined than ever to eliminate FW from their new devices. They see the handwriting.
post #837 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsawyercjs View Post

A move back to parallel wired connections won't happen--serial wired connections have been replacing parallel for some time. That's one of the things that the move from SCSI to Firewire and USB was about--serial means thinner cables, simpler electronics, etc. To be a proper substitute for parallel, serial was made faster, or potentially faster, and that speed increase continues in newer designs. One of the main problems with Apple dropping Firewire on the Air and new Macbook, was that they did it before its replacements--USB 3, etc.--were ready.

Another factor in Firewire's demise, is that it wasn't developed at Intel, nor supported by them very much, and Apple wants to go with Intel for as much of its chipsets as possible, mainly for better pricing, but also to rely on fewer companies for development of the chips Apple uses--it streamlines Apple's development process.

Here's an old article that still has some relevant info on where Apple went wrong with Firewire, and some of the reasons why their dumb decisions resulted in Apple phasing out Firewire:

http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1104

That's a very good article. It does set the facts straight. too bad it comes from 2002, so nothing newer is said.
post #838 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

But, you know, this will make the manufacturers think hard about this. They will be more inclined than ever to eliminate FW from their new devices. They see the handwriting.

Yes, I agree. Somebody has to begin, but Apple could do it smoother. As you see in this forum and not only in this forum, a lot of customers are disappointed about Apples behaviour to do it without offering a really good alternative. Ok, we have the Pro Devices, but many Pro's prefer to use a MacBook, because it's small and offer enough processor power for their needs.
post #839 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by sambamac View Post

Ok, we have the Pro Devices, but many Pro's prefer to use a MacBook, because it's small and offer enough processor power for their needs.

MacBook w/FW400 is $999. But I suspect many want the *newest* looking MacBook so they can seem more cutting edge.
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post #840 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Don't forget that we also use FW hubs for pretty much the same reason.

In theory, you shouldn't need them for either standard, but that's theory.

Not to be drug in again, and it may seem anticdotal, but I've got 8 FireWire devices plugged into a Mac at home and have never ONCE needed a hub, the only reason you really would even need a hub is to provide more power if devices are FireWire powered; with 45W going through the port, it isn't normally needed. I've got 8 USB devices plugged into another Mac and 2 of them are hubs, I've had to replace those hubs more than enything and they weren't cheap hubs. Needless to say the cabling gets to be a nightmare when you have all these DC powered items and powered hubs and USB cables are all over.
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