or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Mac Hardware › Current Mac Hardware › Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire - Page 22

post #841 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

MacBook w/FW400 is $999. But I suspect many want the *newest* looking MacBook so they can seem more cutting edge.

Look is nice of course, but what people really want is the fast graphics, bus & memory on it. For those who want that.. they need to wait a couple of months or check constantly the "Apples hot deals" cause I am sure they will have soon enough a refurbished new MBP soon.
post #842 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Don't forget that we also use FW hubs for pretty much the same reason.

In theory, you shouldn't need them for either standard, but that's theory.

There is no daisy-chain available for USB though. Maybe it's less than optimal to chain FW, but as far as I've seen, chaining is reliable and more FW devices chain than not. With USB, a device that chains is really a hub and the drive is behind that hub, topographically speaking.
post #843 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

MacBook w/FW400 is $999. But I suspect many want the *newest* looking MacBook so they can seem more cutting edge.

Are you suggesting the only thing cutting edge about the new MacBooks are their looks?
post #844 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by sambamac View Post

I admire really your knowledge about the field and I follow your posts with pleasure. I learned a lot during your last posts!

I understand, if Sony changes their specs and delivers their camcorders and notebooks with usb, because they want sell their new products. But Apple built up a good reputation in the movie and music industry and exactly these guys are unsetteled, if apple will be the right partner in the future (Avid, ProTools also running on Windows). They are using cams and interfaces with FW. They won't throw away their equipment because Apple changes their specs. They will look for alternatives. As long Apple supports their Equipment it's ok, but if not they will change and Apple will loose shares in the market. !!!???

Hello there, when you have expensive video cameras you don't use it as spooler, the reason for this is that the heads wear down sooner. Most of them (Pro's & TV/Motion Picture Production Houses) use a deck and if we talk about really pro they will use a native Avid solution or a AJA Kona Card or the low end a Matrox XMO that handles "HD/SD-SDI input/outputs" and will use for sure a really expensive deck as Panasonic AJ-HD1800 DVCPRO HD ($49,999.00) or a Sony HDWM2000/20 ($65,088.00) that both are multi format and make a greater bang for the buck.
No consumer camera has SDI output. Those features are loaded up on cameras worth 20K and beyond and believe me, NO ONE plugs it thru FW to use it as spooler.
There are many more decks and cameras but the durability of the heads on the deck make it a no brainer. Change heads on a Profesional video camera will take a lot of time and will cost several thousands.
Panasonic's Varicam cameras start at 40k up to 100k fully loaded and Sony's Cinealta goes up to 150k.
Really... Movie, TV show & Add industry will not get hurt cause a MacBook got rid of FW.

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-bro.../cat-cinealta/
http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp...GroupId=112002
post #845 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post

Are you suggesting the only thing cutting edge about the new MacBooks are their looks?

I really don't think he is, though I can see how what he said can be misinterpreted to think he said that.
post #846 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post

Look is nice of course, but what people really want is the fast graphics, bus & memory on it. For those who want that they need to wait a couple of months or check constantly the "Apples hot deals" cause I am sure they will have soon enough a refurbished new MBP soon.

I'll say it again: I think the real reason "Pros" bought MacBook is because it could supplement Pro equipment and functions in a small form-factor and at reasonable cost. If Apple introduced a 13" MBP priced less than a 15" but above a MacBook, I think few "pros" would consider the MacBook any longer. I owned an early MacBook (500MHz USB) and replaced it with a 12" PB 867MHz as soon as I could get my hands on one.

Still, such a product introduction wouldn't relieve the issue of existing consumer markets that Apple has wooed in the past with winning combinations of iLife and FW that are no longer compatible with their existing camcorders and the new MacBook, or the Target Disk mode issue.
post #847 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by zanshin View Post

I'll say it again: I think the real reason "Pros" bought MacBook is because it could supplement Pro equipment and functions in a small form-factor and at reasonable cost. If Apple introduced a 13" MBP priced less than a 15" but above a MacBook, I think few "pros" would consider the MacBook any longer. I owned an early MacBook (500MHz USB) and replaced it with a 12" PB 867MHz as soon as I could get my hands on one.

Still, such a product introduction wouldn't relieve the issue of existing consumer markets that Apple has wooed in the past with winning combinations of iLife and FW that are no longer compatible with their existing camcorders and the new MacBook, or the Target Disk mode issue.

I think the only Pro's or enthusiast that would love a MacBook with firewire will be DJ's and people who work with audio and has some or several FW Audio rigs. Or the wedding shooter or a school teacher and mostly cause they are on a budget.
post #848 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post

Are you suggesting the only thing cutting edge about the new MacBooks are their looks?

My first sentence was an option to getting FW without having to buy a MBP. My sentence was stating that some people won't see that as a viable solution because they want "the new hotness", even though it doesn't suit their needs for FireWire. There are plenty of new things in the new MacBook design that are well beyond their looks or even having to do with the case at all, which is quite revolutionary for notebook manufacturing process.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #849 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post

No consumer camera has SDI output. Those features are loaded up on cameras worth 20K and beyond and believe me, NO ONE plugs it thru FW to use it as spooler.
There are many more decks and cameras but the durability of the heads on the deck make it a no brainer. Change heads on a Profesional video camera will take a lot of time and will cost several thousands.

My Sony PMW-EX1 has HD/SDI as well as FireWire, but at $6500, it could only be considered a well-heeled PROsumer camera, not a typical family cam.

I absolutely agree with all your other points. When I went looking for a high-quality camcorder to buy, I ended up choosing the all-digital XDCAM Sony precisely because I could buy an enhanced quality HD camcorder (and not wear out heads and moving-part mechanisms) instead of buying a lower-quality DV tape-based cam for $2000 AND need a $4500 DV tape deck to safely transfer video to disc.

In the near future, solid-state media will likely replace video tape altogether, although currently there are numerous pros warning early adopters of digital file-based video that without master tapes, there is no acceptable long-term archival scenario for their work.
post #850 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

My first sentence was an option to getting FW without having to buy a MBP. My sentence was stating that some people won't see that as a viable solution because they want "the new hotness", even though it doesn't suit their needs for FireWire. There are plenty of new things in the new MacBook design that are well beyond their looks or even having to do with the case at all, which is quite revolutionary for notebook manufacturing process.

Revolutionary is such a tired word. CNC milling has been around for a while.

"Involving or causing a complete or dramatic change"

I love the design and durability of the new Macbooks but calling them dramatic is a bit of a stretch even if we're talking production.

I doubt you're going to see PC companies follow suit because they option has been there for them as well but they are far more price sensitive than Apple. They actually have to compete with other vendors.
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
post #851 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post

I think the only Pro's or enthusiast that would love a MacBook with firewire will be DJ's and people who work with audio and has some or several FW Audio rigs. Or the wedding shooter or a school teacher and mostly cause they are on a budget.

Early in the Afghanistan war, networks (CNN, NBC notably) were equipping reporters with small Panny and Sony DV cams and MacBooks to do their coverage in iMovie and then upload it by satellite link. If a computer is gonna eventually get trashed in harsh conditions, the cheapest one that does the job saves money in the long run.

And I wouldn't dismiss wedding shooters -- that's a huge industry, and there are some people making serious money in it (enuff to qualify as Obama corporate tax targets), especially as the kids who have grown up immersed in a video world become marrying age. (That said, there's a lot of people who are opting for their own cheap cams to record, because (let's face it) you can only watch a wedding so many times before you wonder why you dropped a couple grand on the video of it.)
post #852 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by zanshin View Post

My Sony PMW-EX1 has HD/SDI as well as FireWire, but at $6500, it could only be considered a well-heeled PROsumer camera, not a typical family cam.

I absolutely agree with all your other points. When I went looking for a high-quality camcorder to buy, I ended up choosing the all-digital XDCAM Sony precisely because I could buy an enhanced quality HD camcorder (and not wear out heads and moving-part mechanisms) instead of buying a lower-quality DV tape-based cam for $2000 AND need a $4500 DV tape deck to safely transfer video to disc.

In the near future, solid-state media will likely replace video tape altogether, although currently there are numerous pros warning early adopters of digital file-based video that without master tapes, there is no acceptable long-term archival scenario for their work.

As I said, NO CONSUMER camera has SDI, yours is a PRO CineAlta, that is also why I didn't pointed to the entry level price of Sony HD acquisition as I did with Panasonic, they have P2 but not as good as your camera.
I saw a Demo of it about 2 weeks ago and it is a really nice camera with very but very nice video quality, very lil noise or artifacts. In hands of an expert you can do gorgeous work.
Congratulations!
post #853 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by zanshin View Post

If a computer is gonna eventually get trashed in harsh conditions, the cheapest one that does the job saves money in the long run

So ideally, the $999 Macbook wins here hands down, right?
Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous Communist plot we have ever had to face? - Jack D. Ripper
Reply
Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous Communist plot we have ever had to face? - Jack D. Ripper
Reply
post #854 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Revolutionary is such a tired word. CNC milling has been around for a while.

The type of close-tolerance machining used in high-volume production today is far different than it was even a few years ago. If other laptop makers have never used it (regardless of reason) and Apple now does, it's revolutionary by description.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

I love the design and durability of the new Macbooks but calling them dramatic is a bit of a stretch even if we're talking production.

It would be very hard to hold a new milled Aluminum MacBook next to a previous generation plastic one and not find it "dramatically" different. For one thing, it doesn't have FW...
post #855 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bancho View Post

So ideally, the $999 Macbook wins here hands down, right?

Hello Bancho, are you planing to buy a new lap top? and most importantly.. what you plan to do with it?
It really depends on what you do or might do in the future, technology always evolve and maybe FW seems to be important but that only matter is you have a FW device to hook on it. If you don't have such a device yet and plan to purchase one. Make a litle stop and search again for options using USB2. I am sure you could work out a nice setting with the base new MacBook and the device you intend to purchase.
post #856 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post

As I said, NO CONSUMER camera has SDI, yours is a PRO CineAlta, that is also why I didn't pointed to the entry level price of Sony HD acquisition as I did with Panasonic, they have P2 but not as good as your camera. I saw a Demo of it about 2 weeks ago and it is a really nice camera with very but very nice video quality, very lil noise or artifacts. In hands of an expert you can do gorgeous work. Congratulations!

In the hands of this less-than-expert owner, less than gorgeous work has been forthcoming, but I'm hoping that with time, patience and learning, I will be able to master it. When I can hold it steady (or add another 15lbs of kit with a tripod) I've been excited about the results. There are, however, many "pros" who dismiss it as being 4:2:0 rather than 4:2:2, and HDV (despite the HD/SDI output), low-res viewfinder, and a fixed lens rather than interchangeable (now offered somewhat inflexibly by the EX3 model).

My point is that I think Sony and Pany will continue to raise the bar and add more features like this to less and less expensive cams, further blurring the lines between pro and consumer models and work. Network reality shows are being cheaply shot run-and-gun style with 4 and 5 "prosumer" cams while big-budget camera productions are being passed over.
post #857 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Revolutionary is such a tired word. CNC milling has been around for a while.

"Involving or causing a complete or dramatic change"

You don't think going from the industry standard plastic injection mold or stamped aluminium casing to a milled block as revolutionary in the notebook computer industry? That is "complete or dramatic change" from the way things were done before and they will continue to be done by others. This is not an evolutionary progression of what would have come next. The obvious fact that Apple didn't invent CNC milling does not belittle the radical alteration to the way they are now making their notebooks.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #858 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bancho View Post

So ideally, the $999 Macbook wins here hands down, right?

...because it still has FW. Or for that matter, a cheap, used 12" G4. Although I believe the milled Al case of the new MacBook would be my preference if I had to hump one through the sandy boonies. (Though I'd probably wrap whatever I had in a close-fitting skin to try and protect it, although sand gets in anything. I honestly believe you could carry a solid Aluminum billet in the desert, get it home and cut it open, only to find a small handful of sand inside it.)
post #859 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by zanshin View Post

In the hands of this less-than-expert owner, less than gorgeous work has been forthcoming, but I'm hoping that with time patience and learning, I will be able to master it. When I can hold it steady (or add another 15lbs of kit with a tripod) I've been excited about the results.

My point is that I think Sony and Pany will continue to raise the bar and add more features like this to less and less expensive cams, further blurring the lines between pro and consumer models and work. Network reality shows are being cheaply shot run-and-gun style with 4 and 5 "prosumer" cams while big-budget camera productions are being passed over.

Oh lol, you will do fine, this is the best time after you purchase such a product like that one. I remember the first time I got my hand on a Pro Video Camera, it was a Sony 3/4 so long ago.

A shoulder support with the extra weight of a power juice box could do the trick for the steady thingy. Its always troublesome with low weight video cameras.

The main reason your camera is catalogued as Pro is not only the fact it shoots HD or has an SDI jack. Is the fact it can sustain heavy color correction, even on a Quantel rig. This ability has been long desired for most indi film makers or anyone serious with the work they pull out.
HDV format lacks of that cause the compression and other stuff. Again really nice acquisition.
BTW, what you use for editing?
post #860 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

You don't think going from the industry standard plastic injection mold or stamped aluminium casing to a milled block as revolutionary in the notebook computer industry? That is "complete or dramatic change" from the way things were done before and they will continue to be done by others. This is not an evolutionary progression of what would have come next. The obvious fact that Apple didn't invent CNC milling does not belittle the radical alteration to the way they are now making their notebooks.

No ..I honestly don't. It all depends on what Apple's willing to spend. It's a clear change but I don't view it as dramatic or in anyway revolutionary. Will other companies follow this design process? We'll see but I doubt that in 5 years we see aluminum milled notebook cases as the standard. I tend to like to reserve the "Revolutionary" title to things that are dramatic in a way that causes progressive and profound changes to a market. I think Apple's decision is equivalent to what a high end audio manafucturer does by utilizing a thicker milled faceplate. It's a sexier look but hardly a revolution over more plastic devices. Though people are free to consider whatever they want a revolution. My personal standards are just a bit higher.



Quote:
Originally Posted by zanshin View Post

The type of close-tolerance machining used in high-volume production today is far different than it was even a few years ago. If other laptop makers have never used it (regardless of reason) and Apple now does, it's revolutionary by description.

It would be very hard to hold a new milled Aluminum MacBook next to a previous generation plastic one and not find it "dramatically" different. For one thing, it doesn't have FW...

Revolutionary as an adjective has such a wide dynamic range. I love the Macbook alu but I realize that price hike of 200 bucks is paying for that fancy case. I think there are plenty of vendors that could do the same but wouldn't because of their price sensitive market.
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
post #861 of 1657
Revolutionary as an adjective has such a wide dynamic range. I love the Macbook alu but I realize that price hike of 200 bucks is paying for that fancy case. I think there are plenty of vendors that could do the same but wouldn't because of their price sensitive market.[/QUOTE]

Just remember that the target customer of Apple has in their vast majority near or full deep pockets.
As always been, Apple hardware has been designed and marketed for that kind of people that don't mind to spend such amount of money.
Of course, their hardware appeals to a larger basis, but in the end is up to them and save for a while.
post #862 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post

Hello Bancho, are you planing to buy a new lap top? and most importantly.. what you plan to do with it?
It really depends on what you do or might do in the future, technology always evolve and maybe FW seems to be important but that only matter is you have a FW device to hook on it. If you don't have such a device yet and plan to purchase one. Make a litle stop and search again for options using USB2. I am sure you could work out a nice setting with the base new MacBook and the device you intend to purchase.

I'm actually looking to upgrade from my current black Macbook (1st gen) to the Macbook Pro this time around. It's got more power than I really need, but I use it for work every day so in the long run it's not a huge expense to defray over time. Personally, I like firewire a great deal and have 4 firewire hard drives (though at least 2 have USB2 connections as well. I like having the extra I/O port. In my case, I could survive without it. I have used target mode for various reasons in the past though and would miss the ease of maintenance that it offered. I'm happy to trade that for the extrame ease in accessing the hrd disk in the new MBPs though.

My original comment was only to point to the carryover Macbook as the best solution given Zanshin's criteria in the post I was replying to.
Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous Communist plot we have ever had to face? - Jack D. Ripper
Reply
Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous Communist plot we have ever had to face? - Jack D. Ripper
Reply
post #863 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

No ..I honestly don't. It all depends on what Apple's willing to spend. It's a clear change but I don't view it as dramatic or in anyway revolutionary. Will other companies follow this design process? We'll see but I doubt that in 5 years we see aluminum milled notebook cases as the standard. I tend to like to reserve the "Revolutionary" title to things that are dramatic in a way that causes progressive and profound changes to a market. I think Apple's decision is equivalent to what a high end audio manafucturer does by utilizing a thicker milled faceplate. It's a sexier look but hardly a revolution over more plastic devices. Though people are free to consider whatever they want a revolution. My personal standards are just a bit higher.





Revolutionary as an adjective has such a wide dynamic range. I love the Macbook alu but I realize that price hike of 200 bucks is paying for that fancy case. I think there are plenty of vendors that could do the same but wouldn't because of their price sensitive market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bancho View Post

I'm actually looking to upgrade from my current black Macbook (1st gen) to the Macbook Pro this time around. It's got more power than I really need, but I use it for work every day so in the long run it's not a huge expense to defray over time. Personally, I like firewire a great deal and have 4 firewire hard drives (though at least 2 have USB2 connections as well. I like having the extra I/O port. In my case, I could survive without it. I have used target mode for various reasons in the past though and would miss the ease of maintenance that it offered. I'm happy to trade that for the extrame ease in accessing the hrd disk in the new MBPs though.

My original comment was only to point to the carryover Macbook as the best solution given Zanshin's criteria in the post I was replying to.

With so many FW hard drives is a no brainer to jump on the new MBP. I personally can't resign the use of target mode.
post #864 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

Not to be drug in again, and it may seem anticdotal, but I've got 8 FireWire devices plugged into a Mac at home and have never ONCE needed a hub, the only reason you really would even need a hub is to provide more power if devices are FireWire powered; with 45W going through the port, it isn't normally needed. I've got 8 USB devices plugged into another Mac and 2 of them are hubs, I've had to replace those hubs more than enything and they weren't cheap hubs. Needless to say the cabling gets to be a nightmare when you have all these DC powered items and powered hubs and USB cables are all over.

That's very good. But it's unusual. Even putting two or three on a string normally presents problems. And you really can't put a camcorder and a HDD, esp. if you want to use it for the camcorders files, on the same port.

Besides, it's a pain when you must disconnect one device from the middle of the string. sometimes, depending on what you have hooked up, and where, you need a restart.
post #865 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

There is no daisy-chain available for USB though. Maybe it's less than optimal to chain FW, but as far as I've seen, chaining is reliable and more FW devices chain than not. With USB, a device that chains is really a hub and the drive is behind that hub, topographically speaking.

I've seen more problems with stringing devices together than not. It's better these days, but still has problems.
post #866 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post

Hello there, when you have expensive video cameras you don't use it as spooler, the reason for this is that the heads wear down sooner. Most of them (Pro's & TV/Motion Picture Production Houses) use a deck and if we talk about really pro they will use a native Avid solution or a AJA Kona Card or the low end a Matrox XMO that handles "HD/SD-SDI input/outputs" and will use for sure a really expensive deck as Panasonic AJ-HD1800 DVCPRO HD ($49,999.00) or a Sony HDWM2000/20 ($65,088.00) that both are multi format and make a greater bang for the buck.
No consumer camera has SDI output. Those features are loaded up on cameras worth 20K and beyond and believe me, NO ONE plugs it thru FW to use it as spooler.
There are many more decks and cameras but the durability of the heads on the deck make it a no brainer. Change heads on a Profesional video camera will take a lot of time and will cost several thousands.
Panasonic's Varicam cameras start at 40k up to 100k fully loaded and Sony's Cinealta goes up to 150k.
Really... Movie, TV show & Add industry will not get hurt cause a MacBook got rid of FW.

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-bro.../cat-cinealta/
http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp...GroupId=112002

This is very true, but most people here are talking about cheap equipment. To some, a $1,200 camcorder is a "pro" device.
post #867 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by zanshin View Post

My Sony PMW-EX1 has HD/SDI as well as FireWire, but at $6500, it could only be considered a well-heeled PROsumer camera, not a typical family cam.

I absolutely agree with all your other points. When I went looking for a high-quality camcorder to buy, I ended up choosing the all-digital XDCAM Sony precisely because I could buy an enhanced quality HD camcorder (and not wear out heads and moving-part mechanisms) instead of buying a lower-quality DV tape-based cam for $2000 AND need a $4500 DV tape deck to safely transfer video to disc.

In the near future, solid-state media will likely replace video tape altogether, although currently there are numerous pros warning early adopters of digital file-based video that without master tapes, there is no acceptable long-term archival scenario for their work.

This is changing rapidly since the first Panasonic came out a few years ago with their hideously high priced solid state modules for their camera.

As it becomes more familiar, the industry will become accustomed to the idea. If they really wanted to, they could dump to digital tape for storage. But tape storage is a flimsy way of storing something long term, esp digital. Unlike analog, which degrades gracefully, digital does it poorly.

That's normally fine. But we know the record of music and film companies when it comes to their long term policies of storage, which is to say, not very good. They would have to re-record those tapes every few years. That won't happen.
post #868 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Revolutionary is such a tired word. CNC milling has been around for a while.

"Involving or causing a complete or dramatic change"

Exctly what will happen in Apple's case. Show me one other computermanufacturer who does this.

As I said, for this industry, it IS revolutionary.

Quote:
I love the design and durability of the new Macbooks but calling them dramatic is a bit of a stretch even if we're talking production.

I doubt you're going to see PC companies follow suit because they option has been there for them as well but they are far more price sensitive than Apple. They actually have to compete with other vendors.

If Apple takes advantage of what they're doing, it will have a dramatic effect, yes. If for some reason I can't think of, they don't, then it won't have much effect, other than to give us better cases, and help their overall designs.

PC companies probably won't do it because they hardly make any profits on their products now. And they do compete with Apple. Remember the number, 66% of all computers sold in this country over $1,000 are Macs. That's competition, don't try to deny it.

And Apple's winning!

That's also where all manufacturers make the majority of their computer profits, and it's why Apple is making one third of all the profit in the computer consumer, laptop, and professional markets in the USA

That's also competition, and Apple is winning there.

20% of all computers bought at retail are also Macs, a good jump. so Apple is doing very well there also.

Another reason why PC companies would have a problem doing this is because they sell too many lines of laptops, and too many models within each line. They may sell a lot of units industry wide, but they don't sell that many of each model. That makes it difficult.

What they do, is to share internal frames, with the outside plastic being the difference, very often. With Apple's method, the entire body must be different.
post #869 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post

Revolutionary as an adjective has such a wide dynamic range. I love the Macbook alu but I realize that price hike of 200 bucks is paying for that fancy case. I think there are plenty of vendors that could do the same but wouldn't because of their price sensitive market.

Quote:
Just remember that the target customer of Apple has in their vast majority near or full deep pockets.
As always been, Apple hardware has been designed and marketed for that kind of people that don't mind to spend such amount of money.
Of course, their hardware appeals to a larger basis, but in the end is up to them and save for a while.

Though Jobs did say, during the call, that the price for that would come down as they make more of them.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the next updates $100 cheaper.
post #870 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

This is very true, but most people here are talking about cheap equipment. To some, a $1,200 camcorder is a "pro" device.

hihi, I know
How you been Mel?
post #871 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post

hihi, I know
How you been Mel?

Tired and busy.\
post #872 of 1657
FCP, of course, although I had to pay for an upgrade to v 6.0.2, and really hadn't touched it since v.4, and then only lightly. I need to go back through all the courseware! Fortunately I have an "All-you-can-eat" account at Lynda.com.

To save time and view some test footage I imported the .MP4 files into FCP and then immediately exported them as QT .movs and then threw them into iMovie to chop up quickly and out onto my AppleTV. I know I could do the same thing in FCP, but I've really forgotten the interface and menus!

The AppleTV cannot handle the 1920x1080 size, and I had to save them as lower res files, but some nature stuff I shot in the Canadian Rockies this summer still looks much better than my skills have a right to claim to. It's a big camera to lug around the mountains on a vacation, but I found a good pack to hike with it that protects it well. One of my goals is to make credible 25 or 30 minute HD-DVDs (using regular DL-DVD recordable blanks) and play in my discontinued Toshiba player. I haven't invested in anything Blu-Ray yet (so few movies seem worthy of the cost, but that's just my taste) but I was listening to a BUZZ podcast concerning how you can do the same thing using Blu-Ray format and a DL-DVD. This morning I saw an ad for XBox for $199, so if that's a model with a B-R player, I might give M$ a little more of my money.


Quote:
Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post

Oh lol, you will do fine, this is the best time after you purchase such a product like that one. I remember the first time I got my hand on a Pro Video Camera, it was a Sony 3/4 so long ago.

A shoulder support with the extra weight of a power juice box could do the trick for the steady thingy. Its always troublesome with low weight video cameras.

The main reason your camera is catalogued as Pro is not only the fact it shoots HD or has an SDI jack. Is the fact it can sustain heavy color correction, even on a Quantel rig. This ability has been long desired for most indi film makers or anyone serious with the work they pull out.
HDV format lacks of that cause the compression and other stuff. Again really nice acquisition.
BTW, what you use for editing?
post #873 of 1657
OK. So... if Apple really want to save face then next revision re-program those CNC milling machines to cut an extra port hole in that pretty but totally unnecessary case and add on a FireWire 800 port.
Voila! A hell of a lot less pissed off people. A nice extra, functional port. Some nice press. Extra sales...

'But, but, but.... that's too simple' you cry.

Yea yea. The obvious answer usually is.

By the way...
The Petition for FireWire's return seems to be racking up quite a few sigs. Demand is still there by the look of things.
post #874 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiMac View Post

OK. So... if Apple really want to save face then next revision re-program those CNC milling machines to cut an extra port hole in that pretty but totally unnecessary case and add on a FireWire 800 port.
Voila! A hell of a lot less pissed off people. A nice extra, functional port. Some nice press. Extra sales...

'But, but, but.... that's too simple' you cry.

Yea yea. The obvious answer usually is.

By the way...
The Petition for FireWire's return seems to be racking up quite a few sigs. Demand is still there by the look of things.

No one expected FW 800 in that machine anyway.

The case isn't unnecessary. If it were, then they COULDN'T machine that hole. It's the case that allows it.

But enough people have to let Apple know they want it.

I'm not sure petitions will do it. It needs to be a more general uprising.
post #875 of 1657
Since others are doing it, I'll weigh in on what I think are the right words to describe using CNC milling (in this instance, starting with one solid block of aluminum) for a laptop's housing:

"Revolutionary" strikes me as a stretch. I'd describe it as "a major evolution", "important" and "useful".

It's not just for looks. Among other things, it makes the entire housing more durable, as someone pointed out earlier, which reduces the stress on the circuit boards inside, which greatly reduces the number of breakages on those boards. Manufacturers of laptops continue to go for thinner, weaker traces, more delicate soldering, etc. on circuit boards, in order to fit more stuff into a small space, all of which can break more easily with a flexible plastic housing. When you've spent $1300 or more on a laptop, and its internal connections don't break even when you regularly pick it up by one corner, cantilevering the rest of it out into free space, then you'll apply some strong positive descriptions to its solid housing. Or you should.

But we do also get the benefit that a solid body construction can look better over the lifetime of the laptop, since such construction is much less subject to dents. Look at almost any Apple aluminum laptop that doesn't use solid body construction (in other words, all Apple aluminum laptops besides the Air and the new Macbook)--you'll often see multiple, ugly-looking dents, bends, etc. due to the too-thin and too-flexible aluminum you get when you just stamp out such housings. Solid body housings aren't impervious to dents, but much more so than stamped-out, thin aluminum.
post #876 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsawyercjs View Post


"Revolutionary" strikes me as a stretch. I'd describe it as "a major evolution", "important" and "useful".

I feel as though it's revolutionary, because it's the first time anyone has ever made a manufacturing "just in time" case for a computer.

normally, just in time means that parts are ordered in a stream to just keep up with the manufacturing process.

This is very different. They can make just the number of cases they need, and time it much closer than they could with all the other parts, possibly being made in different factories by other companies. That's very difficult to coordinate. No one else is doing this for computers.

The same thing for just in time design. no one else is doing that either. Apple can go from design to prototype to cutting chips in a few days, if they want.

This can give them a major advantage over other companies, if they choose to work it that way.

Jobs' description of this indicated that it meant more to Apple than just the quality advantages. I think what I'm saying here indicates those other advantages.

I think that's revolutionary.
post #877 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by zanshin View Post

My Sony PMW-EX1 has HD/SDI as well as FireWire, but at $6500, it could only be considered a well-heeled PROsumer camera, not a typical family cam.

I absolutely agree with all your other points. When I went looking for a high-quality camcorder to buy, I ended up choosing the all-digital XDCAM Sony precisely because I could buy an enhanced quality HD camcorder (and not wear out heads and moving-part mechanisms) instead of buying a lower-quality DV tape-based cam for $2000 AND need a $4500 DV tape deck to safely transfer video to disc.

In the near future, solid-state media will likely replace video tape altogether, although currently there are numerous pros warning early adopters of digital file-based video that without master tapes, there is no acceptable long-term archival scenario for their work.

Out of curiosity, how do you deal with the media cost? What I'm seeing is $500 for 8GB and that seems excessive to me. The media spec claims a data rate of 800 Mbit/s, but most of the XDCAM formats record around 50Mbps. I suppose it's handy for retrieving the files at 16x real time.
post #878 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Out of curiosity, how do you deal with the media cost? What I'm seeing is $500 for 8GB and that seems excessive to me. The media spec claims a data rate of 800 Mbit/s, but most of the XDCAM formats record around 50Mbps. I suppose it's handy for retrieving the files at 16x real time.

These are industrial quality modules. It's like buying an Anton Baur battery and charger. Commercial users are pretty immune to cost.

Besides, those prices are much lower than they were two years ago when the first Panasonic came out.
post #879 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I feel as though it's revolutionary, because it's the first time anyone has ever made a manufacturing "just in time" case for a computer.

normally, just in time means that parts are ordered in a stream to just keep up with the manufacturing process.

This is very different. They can make just the number of cases they need, and time it much closer than they could with all the other parts, possibly being made in different factories by other companies. That's very difficult to coordinate. No one else is doing this for computers.

The same thing for just in time design. no one else is doing that either. Apple can go from design to prototype to cutting chips in a few days, if they want.

This can give them a major advantage over other companies, if they choose to work it that way.

Jobs' description of this indicated that it meant more to Apple than just the quality advantages. I think what I'm saying here indicates those other advantages.

I think that's revolutionary.

I agree this is pretty new and significant. How about "nearly revolutionary"?

But then, I'm the type for whom revolutionary would require a laptop (or handheld) with something like a fold-out display that expands to at least a 24" Cinema Display.
post #880 of 1657
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsawyercjs View Post

I agree this is pretty new and significant. How about "nearly revolutionary"?

But then, I'm the type for whom revolutionary would require a laptop (or handheld) with something like a fold-out display that expands to at least a 24" Cinema Display.

Even that, by your definition would be an evolution of current displays. This is basically, more promising.

But, whatever word we use, this opens up a lot of new possibilities.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Current Mac Hardware
AppleInsider › Forums › Mac Hardware › Current Mac Hardware › Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire