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Inside the new MacBooks: Audio and Video - Page 2

post #41 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

You use a lot of speculation to come to your conclusion.

The point of DP is to be an open standard. To patent any part of it is counter productive and I'm sure violates the agreement to use the standard. Apple supports many open standards.

The point of open standards is to allow anyone to be free to use the mini-port and third parties will be free to make full to mini connectors.

Is mini Display Port part of the standard yet?

There is a bit of precedence. As it is, there aren't any cables with mini-DVI on one end, you have to buy one of Apple's dongle adapters and connect it to a cable with full DVI connectors. Mini-DVI is a connector that only Apple uses as far as I can tell.
post #42 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriamjh View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbert View Post

And it also appears to require both the Mini DisplayPort and a free USB port -- i.e., if it can be used with the MacBook Air, you have no more USB ports.

This is likely incorrect. The USB connection is for the hub in the monitor.

No, the USB connection supplies the adapter with power. It has nothing to do with any USB hub that may or may not be in someone's monitor.

For a DisplayPort signal to be converted to dual-link DVI signal, active circuitry must be used (as opposed to a single-link DVI signal, which requires only passive circuitry).
post #43 of 104
FWIW, i own a 17 MBP with its (uncharacteristically) big ugly dual link dvi connector. I have to carry an adapter whenever i visit conf. rooms due to vga projectors. I think most people who have to connect into a large lcd in the office, and want to hook into projectors etc are already used to keeping the adapters in the bag. My point - whatever connector Apple used would be equally inconvenient. In fact this new connector has excellent tech. specs, and is small.

Despite my main 'PC" being a 17MBP, I couldn't resist a new 2.4 MB (unibody) I like it so much I am now using it as my main 'PC' Whatever people think about the price, the standard of construction and physical quality of the new unibody MB is incredible. For those that have only seen it on the web - wait until you get one in your hands. Its hard to believe they could improve something so well made (previous generation), but they did. The new glass trackpad took me an hour or so to like, and again its a huge improvement. The 2.4MHz and graphics chip make this computer scream, and it barely gets warm! I will give it up only when the next gen 17MBP is available.

Since this article is about audio, the only shortcoming with the MB is the quality (or lack) with the built in speakers.

I don't consider myself a FAN BOY, and must use vmware-fusion daily just so I can use the embedded compilers, however I would be proud to have been involved in bringing a product this good to market
post #44 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Is mini Display Port part of the standard yet?

There is a bit of precedence. As it is, there aren't any cables with mini-DVI on one end, you have to buy one of Apple's dongle adapters and connect it to a cable with full DVI connectors. Mini-DVI is a connector that only Apple uses as far as I can tell.

Apple also used mini-VGA in the iBook. From what I've seen their is no evidence that Apple blocked the other members of The Digital Display Working Group from using micro or mini DVI.

I see no reason why Apple would have blocked other from using these ports. Their would be less need for adaptors if DVI and DP are adopted widely across the electronics industry.
post #45 of 104
I wish Apple would confirm that Mini Displayport has audio out and they will be making adapters to standard DisplayPort and HDMI. If that is the case, I'm totally fine with the Mini DisplayPort and it would probably be the best thing out there.
post #46 of 104
Good grief. It'll be all of 24 to 48 hours before someone with one of the new MBs or MBPs actually tests an adapter with speakers to see whether the Mini DisplayPort actually does feed audio. I hope the more anxious thumbsuckers who are posting here don't rip all the skin off their opposable digits before then. As for me, if you haven't found out by Wednesday, I'll try to check it out for you. My new MB is in the air over the Pacific at the moment!

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post #47 of 104
Apple's obsession with skinny laptops are the reason we've got a clusterf*** of minPorts.
post #48 of 104
Let's think this thing through for a minute. The marketing web pages for the new 24" LED Cinema Display note that the three-connector power-USB-Mini DisplayPort cable provides a data connection for the three-port USB hub on the back of the display. Most likely those USB ports are powered by the display, not by the computer. In fact, an iPod or iPhone can be left connected to the display back USB ports for charging while the computer is disconnected.

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post #49 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibitzer View Post

Good grief. It'll be all of 24 to 48 hours before someone with one of the new MBs or MBPs actually tests an adapter with speakers to see whether the Mini DisplayPort actually does feed audio. I hope the more anxious thumbsuckers who are posting here don't rip all the skin off their opposable digits before then. As for me, if you haven't found out by Wednesday, I'll try to check it out for you. My new MB is in the air over the Pacific at the moment!

And how do you plan to check for audio out? With the VGA adapter or the DVI adapter? Not likely because they don't carry audio. You can't connect Mini Displayport to anything with speakers - only the Apple adapters. That's the problem.
post #50 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Apple's obsession with skinny laptops are the reason we've got a clusterf*** of minPorts.

That's not the problem. The problem is the industry is stagnated to the lowest common denominator, VGA.

If the electronics industry by and large had moved on to DVI - a mini DVI to full DVI cable would be no big deal. The same holds for DP.
post #51 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Apple also used mini-VGA in the iBook. From what I've seen their is no evidence that Apple blocked the other members of The Digital Display Working Group from using micro or mini DVI.

I see no reason why Apple would have blocked other from using these ports. Their would be less need for adaptors if DVI and DP are adopted widely across the electronics industry.

Why should they? Most people are going to have a VGA or DVI cable laying around or both (most LCDs you buy will come with both cables), and there's plenty of room on 15" laptops for plenty of ports, without adding something smaller; there's just no reason for PC OEMs to add something specific on their end, and it ends up causing less hassle for the end consumers, especially in IT departments, when there will be video cables and VGA/DVI adapters laying around. Standardizing to DVI ports would be nice for everybody, but Apple can't even really do that, without requiring an adapter of some sort, because they have to make their laptops so small.

So it is Apple's mess, they're the ones going to mini ports that no one else uses, even if it is based around a full size standard. It would be like selling a laptop with nothing but USB mini B ports to save space, and wondering why everyone doesn't adapt - it's based on a standard, but a bastardized variant no one uses ATM for that use.
post #52 of 104
Guys, Please Claim Down.

Mini DisplayPort is a draft VESA Standard. It is properly like Draft N in Router. But Apple decided to JumpStart.

May be apple finally decide Mini DVI is simply not good enough.

The main problem is will other industry player follow suit to include Mini Display Port

There are only two kind of people in this world.

Those who dont understand Apple and those who misunderstood Apple.

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There are only two kind of people in this world.

Those who dont understand Apple and those who misunderstood Apple.

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post #53 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbert View Post

No, the USB connection supplies the adapter with power. It has nothing to do with any USB hub that may or may not be in someone's monitor.

For a DisplayPort signal to be converted to dual-link DVI signal, active circuitry must be used (as opposed to a single-link DVI signal, which requires only passive circuitry).

Couldn't you use one of the USB ports on the display (cinema displays have usb ports don't they) to drive the dual link adapter?

But if those ports don't supply enough power you would of course have to use a powered usb hub, which is not very convenient.....
post #54 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness View Post

Standardizing to DVI ports would be nice for everybody, but Apple can't even really do that, without requiring an adapter of some sort, because they have to make their laptops so small.

So it is Apple's mess, they're the ones going to mini ports that no one else uses, even if it is based around a full size standard. It would be like selling a laptop with nothing but USB mini B ports to save space, and wondering why everyone doesn't adapt - it's based on a standard, but a bastardized variant no one uses ATM for that use.

Standardizing DVI ports would be nice? I have had a DVI port on my Powerbook 6 years ago when most PC laptops didn't even support external monitors. Apple is finally moving on.

Sounds like you would be better off with a cheap PC laptop. SInce they are build with desktop components they'll be plenty big and clunky with lots of space for those extra vintage ports.

I can't believe how many people on these forums are searching so hard to find faults. If you don't like it don't buy it.
post #55 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by json View Post

Couldn't you use one of the USB ports on the display (cinema displays have usb ports don't they) to drive the dual link adapter?

Only if you put the Mini DisplayPort jack on the laptop about 6" away from the monitor... the picture of the adapter on Apple's website doesn't make it look like you can do this easily.
post #56 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The point of DP is to be an open standard. To patent any part of it is counter productive and I'm sure violates the agreement to use the standard. Apple supports many open standards.

The point of open standards is to allow anyone to be free to use the mini-port and third parties will be free to make full to mini connectors.

DisplayPort is the open standard, not Mini DisplayPort, and we don't know if the mini version will ever be part of the standard. Besides, Apple have a slightly-skewed view regarding the use of open standards within proprietary products. Think AAC or Safari. (And yes, I do know that there is nothing actually wrong in the way they interpret and implement those standards, but they do tend to operate to "the letter of the law, rather than its spirit".)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Is mini Display Port part of the standard yet?

There is a bit of precedence. As it is, there aren't any cables with mini-DVI on one end, you have to buy one of Apple's dongle adapters and connect it to a cable with full DVI connectors. Mini-DVI is a connector that only Apple uses as far as I can tell.

Admittedly, I've only skimmed the (238 page) specs and compliance doc, but I can find no mention of a "Mini DisplayPort" at all.

Your point about Apple's use of mini DVI (and mini VGA before it) and the total lack of third-party adapters is exactly what I'm worried about. Why will any 3rd party want to manufacture niche products when the rest of the industry is using the full standard?

And if it does come down to adapters only being available from Apple, what are we to make of the lack of a Mini DisplayPort to Video adapter? S-Video and Composite may be old tech within the entertainment industry, but they're still vital for connecting to video mixers such as the Edirol V4 and V8, the industry standards for performing VJs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksec View Post

Mini DisplayPort is a draft VESA Standard. It is properly like Draft N in Router.

*snip*

Do you have a link to support your assertion? I can find no mention of it in the current documentation. I would like nothing more than to be reassured.
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post #57 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post

Worse than Microsoft? While I prefer matte screens myself, could you point out which other PC maker offers laptops with matte or glossy screens?

The Sony Z offers something more advanced than either of those options- a hybrid screen on their laptops.The colors, contrast, and saturation are that of a glossy screen, however, it has a new matte-like screen finish that diffuses glare and improves outside readability.
post #58 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwdawso View Post

You are being too short sighted. There may not be room in their future products.

Reserve mini/micro/nano/whatever Display Port for these future product, then, and use damn full size when you have room.
Can't see why they've this urge to annoy current products users.
Do you expect that the whole market will go mini just because Apple put it on a couple of laptops?.
post #59 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbert View Post

And here I thought AppleInsider was claiming that Mini DisplayPort was "backwardly compatible with VGA, DVI, and dual-link DVI..."

You misread what they said: the compatibility is not both ways. DisplayPort can drive a DVI/VGA monitor, but a DVI/VGA port cannot without a very expensive converter (i.e. a lot more than the $29 adapters Apple sells) drive a DisplayPort only monitor like Apple's new Cinema display. This is why it is only compatible with the new laptops.
post #60 of 104
I believe that the mini-Display Port used by Apple is part of the standard specification and was NOT invented by Apple.

And, no, I didn't read every post here on this forum, so this may already be a moot point.
post #61 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

The Sony Z offers something more advanced than either of those options- a hybrid screen on their laptops.The colors, contrast, and saturation are that of a glossy screen, however, it has a new matte-like screen finish that diffuses glare and improves outside readability.

Read up a little bit about it but failed to find anything that would consider it "advanced". It more a less a matte screen with boosted color saturation.

How that screen fits in with color correctness appears unclear as I couldn't find any reviews. Love to hear from graphic/video professionals that use this laptop. It may be better or it may be inferior by compromising the attributes of either screen type...
post #62 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Apple's obsession with skinny laptops are the reason we've got a clusterf*** of minPorts.

Basically yeah. From looking at the motherboard, the way things had to be arranged to get them as thin as they are didn't leave enough room for a full size display port or the firewire.

Also one slight mistake in the article, HDMI has support beyond 1080i and can be used for large dual-Link displays.
post #63 of 104
I don't think we'll have to worry about Display Ports' future: All major companies already feature the port with their new displays.

Still one thing annoys me: If there's a new standard, why do they always have to come up with several different sizes? Think of USB: my printer has a bulky full size USB port, my Olympus cam a medium-sized one, and all other equipment from iPod to harddrive have (much more convienient) mini USB plugs.

WHY not make the smallest possible solution the standard for all devices??? Must big devices necessarily have big ports and v.v.??? Always a pain...
post #64 of 104
Samsung have a 30" display using DisplayPort. But the Macbooks cannot connect to it because Apple have used the non-standard mini connector.

Also, there exists a DisplayPort-to-HDMI adapter. But Macbooks cannot use this to connect to HDMI displays, because Apple have used the non-standard mini connector.

Lenovo's ThinkPads now come with DisplayPort output, but you cannot connect it to an Apple display, because Apple have used the non-standard mini connector.

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post #65 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_lha View Post

You misread what they said: the compatibility is not both ways. DisplayPort can drive a DVI/VGA monitor, but a DVI/VGA port cannot without a very expensive converter (i.e. a lot more than the $29 adapters Apple sells) drive a DisplayPort only monitor like Apple's new Cinema display. This is why it is only compatible with the new laptops.

You can compare that to Apple's DVI-to-ADC adapter. In Apple's fashion, that also includes power and USB and costs $100 listed, $70 street. Third party DVI-to-ADC costs about $40 and does not include USB.

So, I will predict Apple's DVI-to-Displayport adapter (also includes USB and sound) will list for $70 to $100. However, third party adapter (display signal only, without USB and audio) will cost $40.

Analog-to-digital adapter will be expensive. VGA is analog, so the adapter is essentially a video capture device, and since display requires low latency, it has to be a pretty high quality video capture device.

That's why you only see VGA-to-DVI-I adapter. DVI-I supports both analog and digital signals, so the adapter essentially use the analog part of DVI-I.

I don't think any VGA-to-DVI-D adapter exists, and I don't think any VGA-to-Displayport adapter will exist.

Some cheapo PC still ship with VGA port only, so they won't be able to use Displayport displays.
post #66 of 104
Can somebody explain me what's the benefit of offering the new 24" display with Display Port only? It would have cost peanuts to add an HDMI and DVI to make it fully compatibel with all equipment.

I could have plugged in my playstation or a future Blu-Ray player, or - current MBP. Do I expect too much?

Even for an owner of the new Macbooks it's of pretty limited use.

Latest marketing decisions of Apple go too far, for my liking
post #67 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by cal6n View Post

DisplayPort is the open standard, not Mini DisplayPort, and we don't know if the mini version will ever be part of the standard. Besides, Apple have a slightly-skewed view regarding the use of open standards within proprietary products. Think AAC or Safari. (And yes, I do know that there is nothing actually wrong in the way they interpret and implement those standards, but they do tend to operate to "the letter of the law, rather than its spirit".)

The mini and the full are both display port. The difference is in the connector size.

AAC is an open standard, Apple has done nothing to change that. Its implementation of Fairplay DRM is proprietary, but then their is no such thing as open source DRM.

I'm not sure what you are saying about Safari. No its not an open source browser but its rendering engine Webkit is open source and is used by Adobe, Google, Nokia and several others.

Quote:
Admittedly, I've only skimmed the (238 page) specs and compliance doc, but I can find no mention of a "Mini DisplayPort" at all.

We already know its not there. What's the point of looking for it?

Quote:
Your point about Apple's use of mini DVI (and mini VGA before it) and the total lack of third-party adapters is exactly what I'm worried about. Why will any 3rd party want to manufacture niche products when the rest of the industry is using the full standard?

So far that has been the case. As well as Apple notebooks have been selling for the past couple of years. I'm sure other manufacturers are paying attention to how people like the design and may use mini display connectors. Apple may be ahead of the curve.
post #68 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by abundance View Post

Reserve mini/micro/nano/whatever Display Port for these future product, then, and use damn full size when you have room.
Can't see why they've this urge to annoy current products users.
Do you expect that the whole market will go mini just because Apple put it on a couple of laptops?.

Apple has been using mini display ports for years. This allows them to design thinner notebooks. As well as Apple's notebooks have been selling and the praise they gain from their design. Other manufacturers are likely to adopt the use of mini display ports.

The way it is right now most notebooks are thin in one edge but have to becomes fatter to accommodate full size ports. Why do that if a mini version is available with the exact same functionality.
post #69 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by PXT View Post

Samsung have a 30" display using DisplayPort. But the Macbooks cannot connect to it because Apple have used the non-standard mini connector.

Also, there exists a DisplayPort-to-HDMI adapter. But Macbooks cannot use this to connect to HDMI displays, because Apple have used the non-standard mini connector.

Lenovo's ThinkPads now come with DisplayPort output, but you cannot connect it to an Apple display, because Apple have used the non-standard mini connector.

Apple has been using mini ports since 2002 and somehow we've managed to survive.
post #70 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zauner View Post

Can somebody explain me what's the benefit of offering the new 24" display with Display Port only? It would have cost peanuts to add an HDMI and DVI to make it fully compatibel with all equipment.

I could have plugged in my playstation or a future Blu-Ray player, or - current MBP. Do I expect too much?

Even for an owner of the new Macbooks it's of pretty limited use.

Latest marketing decisions of Apple go too far, for my liking

It looks as though this monitor was made specifically for Apple notebooks and not so much to be used by desktop computers. Apple will probably introduce new cinema displays for desktops at MacWorld '09 in January.

When Apple moves on to a new port technology it does not include a port to the older technology. Display port is compatible with DVI.

Their is little reason for Apple to include HDMI ports. HDMI is a television standard not a computer standard. Display port is compatible with HDMI.
post #71 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianpeat View Post

I suspect it DOES carry audio, because the new 24" screen has speakers, and no audio cable to connect it to.

here:
http://www.apple.com/displays/features.html

no audio cable needed...oh wait...it very well could be using USB for audio. Crud, so we STILL don't know for sure.

Actually the USB is so that if you have any peripherals that are connected to your laptop i.e. camera, printer, etc the Display will pick it up as well basically turning the macbook/mbp into an 24" iMac.
post #72 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The mini and the full are both display port. The difference is in the connector size.

*snip*

Even if it's electronically compliant, the mini connector is not currently part of the DisplayPort spec. That's not an example of Apple leading the industry. It's yet another example of Apple deliberately isolating itself (and us, it's users) from the rest of the industry.

What part of this fairly simple chain of logic eludes you?
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post #73 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Apple has been using mini ports since 2002 and somehow we've managed to survive.

Agree 100%!!
It appears that there are more and more (probably PC) users on these forums that try to convince us of the all the wrongs ways of Apple and that all other PC makers got it right; that they are the de-facto standard and that Apple should oblige to follow their rules.
I guess this is why Apple sales are growing like crazy.

It is clear that not everyone will agree with every design decision Apple makes (including me) but also that Apple has never tried to be everything to everybody. And that is not a bad thing.

So if you like it, buy it. If you don't, don't This can't be that hard. Just don't whine around; buy something else.
post #74 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by cal6n View Post

Even if it's electronically compliant, the mini connector is not currently part of the DisplayPort spec. That's not an example of Apple leading the industry. It's yet another example of Apple deliberately isolating itself (and us, it's users) from the rest of the industry.

What part of this fairly simple chain of logic eludes you?

The rest of the industry? So Apple must include all ancient ports like VGA, Serial & PS2 to match "the industry"
The silliness of your argument is beyond belief!

It is very simple. Display Port is the emerging computing display standard and given that there are countless devices with VGA, DVI, HDMI and a few with DP out there, you can only have 2 choices for connectivity:
1. Create a big, ugly laptop with a plethora of ports to satisfy you.
2. Create a single port able to support all current device standards and use the appropriate adapter. Laptop or not, regular display port or mini, most will have to deal with that.

This includes the acceptance of the fact that VGA displays will go the way of the CRT and the floppy drive.
post #75 of 104
Wolfman, are you being deliberately obtuse or do you genuinely not understand the concepts involved here?

Here's how it is:
  1. There are a consortium of IT industry leaders, including Apple, Intel, AMD, ATI, NVidia, Dell, H-P and Lenovo who have thrahed out a very good, open standard for the next generation of computer video graphics.
  2. This standard includes the use of a small connector plug, about the same size as a USB plug.
  3. Apple have decided to use their own proprietary plug connector instead of the one in the DisplayPort spec.

The "single port able to support all current device standards" is DisplayPort. Apple are part of the DisplayPort consortium and they're ignoring their own standards in order to implement their own proprietary connector. It's ADC all over again.
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post #76 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by cal6n View Post

Even if it's electronically compliant, the mini connector is not currently part of the DisplayPort spec. That's not an example of Apple leading the industry. It's yet another example of Apple deliberately isolating itself (and us, it's users) from the rest of the industry.

What part of this fairly simple chain of logic eludes you?

Because you are not accurate in your chain of logic.

Their is nothing preventing VESA from adopting the mini port. Their is nothing that prevents other manufacturers from using it.

It's the perfect port for the netbook market.
post #77 of 104
How many pins is the mini display port? Does it match the full-size unit electrically?
post #78 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Apple has been using mini ports since 2002 and somehow we've managed to survive.

They've also included adapters in the past. My iBook could hook up to a VGA display out of the box. This time around, They make you pay extra for the adapter and there isn't one for either regular display port or HDMI. In addition, standard display port is not that much bigger than a USB port. Mini-DP is nothing more than Jobs trying to nickel and dime Apple's customers and attempt to get them to buy the $900 halo display.
post #79 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaarrrgggh View Post

How many pins is the mini display port? Does it match the full-size unit electrically?

Yes, they're both 20 pins. If an adapter cable ever arrived, they'd be compatible.
post #80 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by cal6n View Post

The "single port able to support all current device standards" is DisplayPort. Apple are part of the DisplayPort consortium and they're ignoring their own standards in order to implement their own proprietary connector. It's ADC all over again.

You need to read up on exactly what Display Port is. The connector is only one part of it, the signal that travels through is exactly the same.

Proprietray means you need Apple's permission to use it and generally pay a licensing fee. Since DP is meant to be an open standard and has no licensing fees, it is not proprietary.

Dispaly Port is still new. We have to wait to see how it all goes before people can start with all of this negative speculation.
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