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Inside the new MacBooks: Audio and Video - Page 3

post #81 of 104
10/19/08 at 2:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

They've also included adapters in the past. My iBook could hook up to a VGA display out of the box. This time around, They make you pay extra for the adapter and there isn't one for either regular display port or HDMI. In addition, standard display port is not that much bigger than a USB port. Mini-DP is nothing more than Jobs trying to nickel and dime Apple's customers and attempt to get them to buy the $900 halo display.

Of course we know these adaptors are coming.

If more companies adopt the mini port more third party co's will make straight mini to full cables.
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post #82 of 104
10/19/08 at 2:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cal6n View Post

Wolfman, are you being deliberately obtuse or do you genuinely not understand the concepts involved here?

Here's how it is:
  1. There are a consortium of IT industry leaders, including Apple, Intel, AMD, ATI, NVidia, Dell, H-P and Lenovo who have thrahed out a very good, open standard for the next generation of computer video graphics.
  2. This standard includes the use of a small connector plug, about the same size as a USB plug.
  3. Apple have decided to use their own proprietary plug connector instead of the one in the DisplayPort spec.

The "single port able to support all current device standards" is DisplayPort. Apple are part of the DisplayPort consortium and they're ignoring their own standards in order to implement their own proprietary connector. It's ADC all over again.

I am very aware of the state of evolving standards, such as DisplayPorts or HDMI, including the applicability of them. They are just that evolving though...

Somehow you read them as absolutes. HDMI is now at 1.3 with significantly added capabilities over 1.1 and an added mini HDMI connector.
While Apple jumped ahead to implement a mini DisplayPort connector into a current product, neither you nor I know if this particular physical connector format will make it into the 1.2 spec.
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post #83 of 104
10/19/08 at 4:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Of course we know these adaptors are coming.

If more companies adopt the mini port more third party co's will make straight mini to full cables.

Do we? Have we seen a Mini-VGA, Mini-DVI, or Micro-DVI product that didn't come from Apple? Why would anyone else use Mini-DP, the DisplayPort is normally a pretty small connector as is.
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post #84 of 104
10/19/08 at 4:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_lha View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbert View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

There are no converter boxes for turning DVI signals from a Mac mini or Mac Pro into DisplayPort, which uses not just different physical wiring but an entirely different signaling protocol.

And here I thought AppleInsider was claiming that Mini DisplayPort was "backwardly compatible with VGA, DVI, and dual-link DVI..."

You misread what they said: the compatibility is not both ways. DisplayPort can drive a DVI/VGA monitor, but a DVI/VGA port cannot without a very expensive converter (i.e. a lot more than the $29 adapters Apple sells) drive a DisplayPort only monitor like Apple's new Cinema display. This is why it is only compatible with the new laptops.

My point is that there is no compatibility... never mind in which direction. It is a false claim. DisplayPort is not "backwardly compatible" with DVI or VGA... it is a completely different signaling protocol. If DisplayPort were "backwardly compatible" with DVI or VGA, then no adapters would be needed at all (except maybe to go from different connector types or sizes but act electrically as a passthrough).

It's like claiming that DVI is "backwardly compatible" with VGA just because you can buy an adapter for it; never mind that one is a digital signal and the other is analog. That is completely different than being "backwardly compatible".
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post #85 of 104
10/19/08 at 4:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cal6n View Post

Wolfman, are you being deliberately obtuse or do you genuinely not understand the concepts involved here?

Here's how it is:
  1. There are a consortium of IT industry leaders, including Apple, Intel, AMD, ATI, NVidia, Dell, H-P and Lenovo who have thrahed out a very good, open standard for the next generation of computer video graphics.
  2. This standard includes the use of a small connector plug, about the same size as a USB plug.
  3. Apple have decided to use their own proprietary plug connector instead of the one in the DisplayPort spec.

The "single port able to support all current device standards" is DisplayPort. Apple are part of the DisplayPort consortium and they're ignoring their own standards in order to implement their own proprietary connector. It's ADC all over again.

EXACTLY!

You can now buy a DisplayPort graphics card for a PC which will happily connect to a DisplayPort monitor. Then you can also get a DisplayPort laptop and connect it to the DisplayPort monitor. Then you can take your DisplayPort laptop and, with a DisplayPort-to-HDMI adapter already on sale, connect it to your HDMI TV. But Apple have arrived ( 2 years after the standard was approved ) with a connector that cannot connect to any of the above.

Many of the most important software concepts were invented in the 70s and forgotten in the 80s.

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Many of the most important software concepts were invented in the 70s and forgotten in the 80s.

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post #86 of 104
10/19/08 at 4:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdesir View Post

Funny, and why do almost all projectors are still VGA-only (or at least the cable running from the ceiling-mounted projector to the presenter's table is VGA-only)? Because almost all Windows laptops still have only VGA (at least the compact business-type laptops). And why do almost all Windows laptops still have only VGA? Because almost all projectors only have VGA...

What a way to advance technology. I rather carry a DVI-to-VGA adaptor with me than be part of that mediocrity (and enjoy digital display quality whenever my laptop is connected to a real display not a projector). Maybe in five years all LCDs will have a DisplayPort connector but projectors will only have cought up with DVI (or they will still be at VGA).

Because projector is analog. It uses old physics where the color wheel spins, and a light get projected onto the color wheel one pixel by one pixel...you can think of it as the old TV, line by line scanning.

You won't see projects with digital input for a while.
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post #87 of 104
10/19/08 at 4:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PXT View Post

EXACTLY!

You can now buy a DisplayPort graphics card for a PC which will happily connect to a DisplayPort monitor. Then you can also get a DisplayPort laptop and connect it to the DisplayPort monitor. Then you can take your DisplayPort laptop and, with a DisplayPort-to-HDMI adapter already on sale, connect it to your HDMI TV. But Apple have arrived ( 2 years after the standard was approved ) with a connector that cannot connect to any of the above.

This is not true. Their is no technical reason why they cannot produce a mini to full cable.

It is possible to make a straight mini to full cable. Apple is the only vendor who supports the mini DP ports so most third parties don't make a mini to full cable. Apple provides the adaptor so you can then use any DP cable you want. But their is no technical reason why they cannot produce a cable without an adaptor.

If other computers manufacturers use mini DP. Then more third parties will provide cables for it. The mini port would be very useful for companies such as Sony. As currently their thin notebooks have to have a thicker portion for the DVI port.
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post #88 of 104
10/19/08 at 4:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

This is not true. Their is no technical reason why they cannot produce a mini to full cable.

It is possible to make a straight mini to full cable. Apple is the only vendor who supports the mini DP ports so most third parties don't make a mini to full cable. Apple provides the adaptor so you can then use any DP cable you want. But their is no technical reason why they cannot produce a cable without an adaptor.

If other computers manufacturers use mini DP. Then more third parties will provide cables for it. The mini port would be very useful for companies such as Sony. As currently their thin notebooks have to have a thicker portion for the DVI port.

You are imagining cables that do not exist and making prophesies about the future.
The DisplayPort ecosystem is here now and Apple is not a part of it.

Many of the most important software concepts were invented in the 70s and forgotten in the 80s.

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Many of the most important software concepts were invented in the 70s and forgotten in the 80s.

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post #89 of 104
10/19/08 at 5:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnqh View Post

Because projector is analog. It uses old physics where the color wheel spins, and a light get projected onto the color wheel one pixel by one pixel...you can think of it as the old TV, line by line scanning.

You won't see projects with digital input for a while.

I suppose you are talking about business projectors.

I don't see any technical reason for this. Consumer home theater projectors aren't analog only. They offer HDMI and component video.
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post #90 of 104
10/19/08 at 5:42pm
the whining in this thread is reaching new levels of absurdity.
"We're Apple. We don't wear suits. We don't even own suits."
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"We're Apple. We don't wear suits. We don't even own suits."
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post #91 of 104
10/19/08 at 5:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sennen View Post

the whining in this thread is reaching new levels of absurdity.

As is the making up excuses to cover up Apple's mistakes.
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post #92 of 104
10/19/08 at 5:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PXT View Post

You are imagining cables that do not exist and making prophesies about the future.
The DisplayPort ecosystem is here now and Apple is not a part of it.

Cables for USB 3 do not yet exist. Does that mean they never will? I don't know what is going to happen, I'm looking at what could happen. Right now so early in adoption of Display Port anything could happen.

Display port ecosystem is not yet here. What are you talking about? Only a couple of computer companies begun to have minor support for it. There is no real 3rd party market for it yet.

You don't seem to be interested in looking at this logically. You only seem to be interested in pointing the dirty end of the stick at Apple.
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post #93 of 104
10/19/08 at 6:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

As is the making up excuses to cover up Apple's mistakes.

You're just going to go down to the ground with this, aren't you? If a cable (or adapter) that's mini-DP to DP comes along in 2 months, will you still say it's such a terrible mistake? How many monitors have only DP input? (Apple already makes adapters that go from mini-DP to DVI, mini-DP to dual-link DVI, and mini-DP to VGA).

You seem to want to win an argument rather than look at the real possibilities (and probabilities).
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post #94 of 104
10/19/08 at 8:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by elroth View Post

You're just going to go down to the ground with this, aren't you? If a cable (or adapter) that's mini-DP to DP comes along in 2 months, will you still say it's such a terrible mistake? How many monitors have only DP input? (Apple already makes adapters that go from mini-DP to DVI, mini-DP to dual-link DVI, and mini-DP to VGA).

You seem to want to win an argument rather than look at the real possibilities (and probabilities).

and then whine about having to carry an adapter. i carry mine religiously in my laptop bag, even if i know i don't need one on any particular day.

though i would agree that the adapters are a tad on the expensive side.
"We're Apple. We don't wear suits. We don't even own suits."
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"We're Apple. We don't wear suits. We don't even own suits."
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post #95 of 104
10/19/08 at 9:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Is mini Display Port part of the standard yet?

There is a bit of precedence. As it is, there aren't any cables with mini-DVI on one end, you have to buy one of Apple's dongle adapters and connect it to a cable with full DVI connectors. Mini-DVI is a connector that only Apple uses as far as I can tell.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2

Mini-DVI to HDMI, DVI and VGA for $10 a pop. They are even white.

Google is your friend. Or just reading AI as I've posted Monoprice cables before.
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post #96 of 104
10/19/08 at 9:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnqh View Post

Because projector is analog. It uses old physics where the color wheel spins, and a light get projected onto the color wheel one pixel by one pixel...you can think of it as the old TV, line by line scanning.

You won't see projects with digital input for a while.

This is completely wrong. Color wheel based projectors use a digital DLP chip. Prism based projectors use a digital LCD chip.

Almost all current projectors are digital. Heck...it's part of the damn name: Digital Projector. There are damned few CRT projectors left.
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post #97 of 104
10/19/08 at 10:21pm
Now that everyone is fired-up, here's a controversial question
How many times did Apple drop the ball within the past year?

- Leopard Server: AppleTalk dropouts.
- Leopard corrupting CS3 files saved over network.
- Lost emails during MobileMe transition.
- Slooow and buggy MobileMe interface.
- iPhone Push technology blunder.
- iPhone activation issues.
- Canceling Carbon on Adobe forcing them to delay 64-bit CS4.
- No FW in new MacBooks.
- No MacBook Pro matte displays.
- No sign of ever fulfilling mid-tower request.

Seems like Apple is back to ignoring their customers again.

Ron Paul

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Ron Paul

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post #98 of 104
10/20/08 at 12:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloggerblog View Post

Now that everyone is fired-up, here's a controversial question
How many times did Apple drop the ball within the past year?

- Leopard Server: AppleTalk dropouts.
- Leopard corrupting CS3 files saved over network.
- Lost emails during MobileMe transition.
- Slooow and buggy MobileMe interface.
- iPhone Push technology blunder.
- iPhone activation issues.
- Canceling Carbon on Adobe forcing them to delay 64-bit CS4.
- No FW in new MacBooks.
- No MacBook Pro matte displays.
- No sign of ever fulfilling mid-tower request.

Seems like Apple is back to ignoring their customers again.

What do you expect? An OS 100% reliable? That does not exist.
If you're not satisfied with Mac OX, just run Windows on your MacBook. Good luck. Or if you are, like me, more adventurous, go for Linux or BSD. At least, if there is a bug, you'll be able to get some help and fix it by yourself
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post #99 of 104
10/20/08 at 6:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloggerblog View Post

Now that everyone is fired-up, here's a controversial question
How many times did Apple drop the ball within the past year?

- Leopard Server: AppleTalk dropouts.
- Leopard corrupting CS3 files saved over network.
- Lost emails during MobileMe transition.
- Slooow and buggy MobileMe interface.
- iPhone Push technology blunder.
- iPhone activation issues.
- Canceling Carbon on Adobe forcing them to delay 64-bit CS4.
- No FW in new MacBooks.
- No MacBook Pro matte displays.
- No sign of ever fulfilling mid-tower request.

Seems like Apple is back to ignoring their customers again.

When I see things like this, I always step back and pose the following:
Pose the same question about yourself to you mom or spouse. I bet her answer is longer, most are still unresolved, and you are still living and being served at home.
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post #100 of 104
10/20/08 at 6:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbert View Post

My point is that there is no compatibility... never mind in which direction. It is a false claim. DisplayPort is not "backwardly compatible" with DVI or VGA... it is a completely different signaling protocol. If DisplayPort were "backwardly compatible" with DVI or VGA, then no adapters would be needed at all (except maybe to go from different connector types or sizes but act electrically as a passthrough).

But isn't that exactly what the $29 adapters from Apple do? Its hard to imagine they do any other kinds of trickery without costing a lot more. At the very least I find it hard to believe that a $29 adapter from Apple is converting the digital DP output into analogue VGA, it makes a lot more sense that Apple would do this inside the MacBook and just have VGA on one of the pin-outs like DVI does.
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post #101 of 104
10/20/08 at 7:59am
Mini DisplayPort. Today, for all *practical* purposes this is an Apple proprietary connector, because the only things you can connect to it without an adaptor are Apple products.

Maybe in the future it will become the defacto standard you say? Well the thing about the future is, there's no guarantees. I can say with equal weight, "No one but Apple will use it." And I have the evidence on my side because so far that is the case.
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post #102 of 104
10/20/08 at 8:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

Okay. It wasn't clear earlier what the scenario was.

I would still argue that this is not really different from the current state of affairs. I've been setting up projectors for these kinds of meetings for years and years and *mostly* all the projectors still have VGA connectors only, even today, so there is almost always a need for an adapter if the laptop doesn't have VGA output.

I don't know about you all, but all our projectors (13) use DVI, which runs to our podiums and that's what we use... so I get to plug right in.

I'll tell you (and maybe its just my imagination), but whenever I go to a place that uses VGA it looks ugly. Kind of like going to an S-Video based projector when you are use to VGA. DVI is just cleaner across the board.

Anyway, I see it not so much as Apple using non-standard connections, but PC manufacturers and Projector manfucaturers (who cater to PCs) holding the world back. Apple seems to be (and has in the past) pushing the world forward in at least a few ways. The consequence of doing that, however, is often "a bag of cables." I am just glad to know that I work for a business that sees DVI as clearly superior to VGA, and therefore makes it the standard.

If we lived in a world where everyone pushed forward, and weren't lazy we would see a greater adoption rate, I think, of new protocols. However, the status quo, and $$$ usually win out and we all lose because of it.

Just my 2 cents.
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post #103 of 104
10/20/08 at 8:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Mini DisplayPort. Today, for all *practical* purposes this is an Apple proprietary connector, because the only things you can connect to it without an adaptor are Apple products.

Maybe in the future it will become the defacto standard you say? Well the thing about the future is, there's no guarantees. I can say with equal weight, "No one but Apple will use it." And I have the evidence on my side because so far that is the case.

It doesn't matter of how you like to interpret the word proprietary; unless I read that Apple is restricting rights of use or charge royalties for it (which is beyond unlikely) this is NOT a proprietary adapter.

This whole thread revolves around insufficient information and wild speculation re. the mini DP connector.

The new MB/MBP's are out for what? A week or so? And people whining that there aren't enough cables or adapters out yet and that's an indication for being an Apple-only deal?

This new platform will have at least a 2 year lifespan or so, in which the company will sell millions of these.

I suggest to ease up and wait a bit...
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post #104 of 104
10/20/08 at 10:31am
If the mini display port connector does indeed support all the features of the full sized connector (which seems to be the case), and it's freely available for use (which also seems to be the case), it will become standard because there will be no real reason to use the full sized connectors. The full sized connectors and ports will only limit the amount of space available space for other ports on devices (think netbooks), and only a few shipping graphics cards and displays actually use them at this point. It's better to just make a couple of simple adapters and use the mini connector/port on future devices. The artificial size limit just makes no sense.
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