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Apple contributes $100,000 to fight California's No on 8 battle - Page 10

post #361 of 1350
w00t, go apple. You have no idea how annoyed I am at the people standing on every corner with signs. Let the people get married, its REALLY not such of a big deal, it is a right they have as humans. Love is love.
post #362 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by POd View Post

Honestly if there was no religions the world would be a much better case. Tell me about any major world issue in the last 2000 years where religion has not played a significant role in its happening!!

I am agnostic and understand your sentiments, but I also feel religion has had an overwhelming influence in shaping the constructs of civilization for the better. That is not to say it's infallible or has done no wrong in warping or misinterpreting the "word of God" to fit a specific, selfish agenda at times, but I do see a need for religion for in society, even today despite our current understand of things that religions have previously denounced and killed to protect the knowledge of. There is even evidence that we are wired, to some extent, to search for that infallible father figure that we believed in as a child.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #363 of 1350
Many churches do kick people out for a lifestyle of sin. For thousands of years homosexuality has been defined as a sin. So when somebody gets kicked out of a church for homosexuality, can they sue the church for discrimination? This is going to cause LOTS of problems.

Also, so many people accept sexual orientation as a thing that is genetic. As far as I know, this has not been proven at all. If somebody has good proof of this then let us know. Otherwise quit using this unproven premise.
post #364 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckmoser View Post

Denmark doesn't have full-blown "gay marriage"- they have same-sex unions, which go a couple of steps closer to the California model. So, I guess you're still in the middle ages, huh? Tragic.

The reason why is because wherever gay marriage is fully legalized, or close to it, it marginalizes marriage, which, is the underpinning of Western Civilization. Marriage rates drop like a rock, and you wind up with a huge amount of out-of-wedlock birthrates. Most of these result in a single parent raising the child, which is hard on the kids, and gov't coffers to support the single parents. Of course, in Denmark, tax rates are so high it almost pays better to stay home than have a job- so that particular argument doesn't necessarily matter to you.

Since, according to you, it's all about love, why not brother/sister, father/daughter or hell, bestiality... let's throw in a few chickens. No restrictions, right? Why not five people getting married? I'm sure you get the point.
It marginalizes the importance of marriage.

I live in the Netherlands. In this country we have:

Legalized abortion.
Legalized same sex marriage with full adoption rights.
Legalized euthanasia.
Legalized marijuana use.
Universal health insurance.
A livable minimum wage

And all those rights are subject to regulation laid down by our elected representatives.

And guess what, we also have a healthy economy, low unemployment and our society has not disintegrated. Marriage has been strengthened and not marginalized.

And all that in one of the happiest countries in the world.
post #365 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I am agnostic and understand your sentiments, but I also feel religion has had an overwhelming influence in shaping the constructs of civilization for the better. That is not to say it's infallible or has done no wrong in warping or misinterpreting the "word of God" to fit a specific, selfish agenda at times, but I do see a need for religion for in society, even today despite our current understand of things that religions have previously denounced and killed to protect the knowledge of. There is even evidence that we are wired, to some extent, to search for that infallible father figure that we believed in as a child.

As a fellow Agnostic I agree with your reasoning and observations.
post #366 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


Unethical = not morally correct.

If you feel that it's moral to discriminate against someone because of something they are born with, like their skin colour, then so be it. I'd pray for you, but I have no idea what God that would be or if their even is one. Instead I'll just hope you learn some tolerance in this lifetime.

As defined by the system of rules it is specifically covering: Hence each industry, has a code of ethics unique to their trades, industries, paths, etc.

Morality is a mutable system. Unfortunately, we have a vocal group who feels morality is an immutable tablet from a mythical man story.
post #367 of 1350
I am astounded to hear people think that religion is the the main cause of the world's ills. Easy to think that when one doesn't know the details of religion. I guess they also think all black people look the same and are the same.

Just cause some lunatic claims to be Christian doesn't mean he actually is one. Jesus said love your enemy. So anybody who does evil in the name of Christianity is proving they are not a Christian. So quit using this flawed reason.

Communist Lenin and Stalin killed plenty of people. They were not religious. So it is totally unfair to link religion as the cause of most of the world's evils.

However, I do think religion is linked to most of the world's evils. Since the beginning of recorded history, one man has tried to lord it over another. Most religions says this is wrong. Obviously the guy trying to lord it over the others cannot stand people who say we should treat others as equals. Thus the truly religious have always been persecuted for their beliefs. They are not the ones doing the evil, they are the ones receiving the evil.

Because of this, people who try to lord it over others have sought to counter true religion by claiming to have God on their side. It is indeed rare to find any war without some claim of divine support. It is then easy for the uninformed to see this as religion being the cause of the problems. But religion really had nothing to do with the cause of the problems; it was an excuse.
post #368 of 1350
charel,

I also once heard of a man who fell out of a window twenty stories high. As he passed the tenth floor he was heard saying, "well so far so good."

I hope your country does do well. However, the things you mention have only been legal for a short while. Give it a few generations and then see how things go. I think there will be ramifications in the future.

My country (US) has made a number of mistakes and the ramifications are starting to catch up with us. Our finances is one obvious area. But sometimes solutions that solve the immediate crisis only postpone it till another day. And when that day comes, it tends to come back as a bigger problem.

I happen to know people who live in the Netherlands. Things are not so rosy as you make it out to be. Many families have fallen apart. It is sad to hear about things like this. Unfortunately families falling apart have become common in our country too.

Again I wish you and your country well.
post #369 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by visionary View Post

I am astounded to hear people think that religion is the the main cause of the world's ills. Easy to think that when one doesn't know the details of religion. I guess they also think all black people look the same and are the same.

Just cause some lunatic claims to be Christian doesn't mean he actually is one. Jesus said love your enemy. So anybody who does evil in the name of Christianity is proving they are not a Christian. So quit using this flawed reason.

Communist Lenin and Stalin killed plenty of people. They were not religious. So it is totally unfair to link religion as the cause of most of the world's evils.

However, I do think religion is linked to most of the world's evils. Since the beginning of recorded history, one man has tried to lord it over another. Most religions says this is wrong. Obviously the guy trying to lord it over the others cannot stand people who say we should treat others as equals. Thus the truly religious have always been persecuted for their beliefs. They are not the ones doing the evil, they are the ones receiving the evil.

Because of this, people who try to lord it over others have sought to counter true religion by claiming to have God on their side. It is indeed rare to find any war without some claim of divine support. It is then easy for the uninformed to see this as religion being the cause of the problems. But religion really had nothing to do with the cause of the problems; it was an excuse.

Then how am I suppose to distinguish "good religious people" from bogus ones? For what I see in your post, you should be fighting a war against "bad religious people" first...

Oh, wait, you did, way too many times.
post #370 of 1350
Question ?
1. Do we have eyes ?
2. Do we have brain ?
3. Do we have hands ?
4. Do we have heart ?
5. Do we haven't anything else different of you ?

Answer : Vote No On Proposition 8
post #371 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by visionary View Post

charel,

I also once heard of a man who fell out of a window twenty stories high. As he passed the tenth floor he was heard saying, "well so far so good."

I hope your country does do well. However, the things you mention have only been legal for a short while. Give it a few generations and then see how things go. I think there will be ramifications in the future.

My country (US) has made a number of mistakes and the ramifications are starting to catch up with us. Our finances is one obvious area. But sometimes solutions that solve the immediate crisis only postpone it till another day. And when that day comes, it tends to come back as a bigger problem.

I happen to know people who live in the Netherlands. Things are not so rosy as you make it out to be. Many families have fallen apart. It is sad to hear about things like this. Unfortunately families falling apart have become common in our country too.

Again I wish you and your country well.

Unfortunately it is impossible to insulate oneself from the mistakes made in the USA. You are right that things are not rosy, but I never said they were.
At least we try on the whole not to be bigots
post #372 of 1350
If You Were Us!!! You Will Understand Why "No"

Move Forward APPLE
post #373 of 1350
If Ours child's born to be a gay by natural you gonna kill them ?

Vote NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
post #374 of 1350
Black,Yellow,White outside looks it's different but inside we are the same HUMAN so please don't separate the humanity by the race. We are in the same world and only one world the right things that we should do is "Be A Nice And Help Each Other"
post #375 of 1350
This is is bad bad bad.

Are we entering and era of partisan consumerism?
Do we need to start screening companies for the moral or political positions whatever they are?
Can I be a republican and buy from Apple? Can I be a democrat and buy from Apple?
Can I be pro choice and buy from Apple? Can I be pro life and buy from Apple?
Can I oppose Gay marriage and buy Apple? Can I support Gay marriage and buy from Apple?

Please, Mr Jobs, keep Apple out of politics and moral debates and do what they do best: Stunning
pieces of equipments and a lot of money.
post #376 of 1350
And I thought PC users were the only bigots, seems there are plenty of Apple users too out there who are as backward as Windows XP. I'm amazed at the prejudice and crap esposused here by so called Apple users who should know better. Apple has a huge following in the gay community - live with it or go back to the crappy world of Windows where you belong.
post #377 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by small_player View Post

This is is bad bad bad.

Are we entering and era of partisan consumerism?
Do we need to start screening companies for the moral or political positions whatever they are?
Can I be a republican and buy from Apple? Can I be a democrat and buy from Apple?
Can I be pro choice and buy from Apple? Can I be pro life and buy from Apple?
Can I oppose Gay marriage and buy Apple? Can I support Gay marriage and buy from Apple?

Please, Mr Jobs, keep Apple out of politics and moral debates and do what they do best: Stunning
pieces of equipments and a lot of money.

Why do you feel compelled to stand behind every idea your gadgets maker choose to voice?

I think you can buy a product because of variety things or any combination, be it price, quality, usability, availability or the brand value etc. Whether you agree with the company's view on a specific subject can be a part of it, but that also can be excluded from your decision process.
post #378 of 1350
Oh great! Why do companies think they should flush stockholders' money down the toilet on stuff like this? It's such an emotionally and culturally charged and divisive issue.

Next thing you know, they'll do something really asinine, like put Al Gore, The High Priest of the Church of Global Warming on the board.
post #379 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

Is that a deliberately stupid question?

It's marriage between two people of the same sex. Why would people want to do it? Why do heterosexual people get married?

For those who a "pro" prop 8, please explain exactly how two people of the same sex who love each other getting married adversely affects you or anyone else in any way. Seriously, there are much better things to get pissed off about e.g. torture, child abuse, etc. etc. try directing your energies towards ridding the world of things like that before you start trying to interfere with other people's loving relationships.

word!
post #380 of 1350
Quote:
Please, Mr Jobs, keep Apple out of politics and moral debates and do what they do best: Stunning
pieces of equipments and a lot of money.

Yup, zzzzz...but it has been done....

anyakranhutanavin@yahoo.com dude, please don't make big fonts, its annoying and stupid.
Apple is a hardware company, dont believe me? Read this Article!. For those who understand my message, help me spread this info to those who dont get it.
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Apple is a hardware company, dont believe me? Read this Article!. For those who understand my message, help me spread this info to those who dont get it.
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post #381 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince View Post

Gay marriage is a legal right that relates to being able to do the same business as anyone else: insurance, hospital visitation rights, and other legal protections that married couples take for granted. The government does not clearly define the civil and religious aspects of marriage, so there's not some non-religious form of domestic partnership that gives gays the same legal rights as other people.

Nobody is forcing gays into your religion, the issue is whether religions should force their dogma on the government. Prop 8 is an effort to rewrite the constitution to say that gays can't have the same legal rights as anyone else.

F that gay marriage crap..No weenie between butt cheeks allowed..
post #382 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by visionary View Post

Lots of replies already and lots of emotion. Obviously this topic strikes a nerve. I would think a company of Apple's size would do best to shy away from this controversy. Not good for business at all.

I guess we will see Mac sales plummet next quarter ...

Quote:
That being said, I am amazed how many people do not understand why we have marriage in the first place. While there are minor reasons, the main reason, the big elephant in the room, is children. Marriage is important because a man and woman can make babies. Since they make them, they own them. This is their privilege and their responsibility.

The reason why gay marriage doesn't make sense is they cannot produce babies. There are many other reasons but this is the big one. Nobody talks about this elephant in the room. They will debate the small reasons and overlook this main one.

So what you are trying to suggest is, heterosexual couples who can't have kids should not be allowed to marry?
post #383 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by trafdlo View Post

Oh great! Why do companies think they should flush stockholders' money down the toilet on stuff like this? It's such an emotionally and culturally charged and divisive issue.
.

Because the issue is not about Gay Rights - the issue is about people's constitutional rights. This is not a divisive issue - it's just that bigots are extremely loud and noisy and make their numbers appear much bigger than they actually are.
post #384 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariofreak85 View Post

after reading all these comments on here I just may move to one of those countries. Which one has the best weather? I need to live somewhere sunny

I would say Spain, because it's Mediterranean, but instead of going to Europe, why not come north?
post #385 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by freethinker View Post

As a company, your 1st and most important goal is to make the shareholders happy. Whether or not I believe in Gay Marriage, which is no one's buisness, polarizing the shareholders is not a good idea for a company.

Have your beliefs, yes, and champion them strongly and loudly. Just don't mess with my money in this time of economic uncertainty.


FYI- I do support Gay Marriage because it means equality but Marriage is not the road that Homosexuals should take. Civil unions and writing a DAMN will like everyone else should be paths striven for.

Shareholders come and go, as seen in the recently market turmoil, employees do not. Apple is just doing this for its employees.
post #386 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

Same here. If Apple goes pushing the gay agenda, I might have to switch to Linux or something...

The linux crowd tends to be even more liberal leaning than the mac crowd. You are better off to go with V*sta
post #387 of 1350
Stupid is as stupid does!

First, Al Gore and the loons invaded the leadership of the company. Then the best technology developer in the world starts focusing on political correctness just like it was as important as anything it could "invest" its resources in.

Gay marriage is a logical extension of the agenda that is distracting the company. Political neutrality is a better strategy, but Jobs knows better! I wonder where the company will go next?

I worked for a company that took the same turn years before, Xerox. Look at Xerox it now! It is led by a politically correct management team who has more interest in glass ceilings, affirmative action, hispanic and black caucuses than it does in developing and selecting the best products on the planet. I remember when it was the technology leader in the 60s, 70s and 80s and the best company in the world to work for. It was so full of ideas that it couldn't use all of them and 'gave them away' to companies like Apple! Look at Xerox now, struggling to survive and clinging to its PC agenda (and I don't mean Personal Computer!).
post #388 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone11 View Post

The linux crowd tends to be even more liberal leaning than the mac crowd. You are better off to go with V*sta

Gotta be careful in that camp too. Microsoft also extends full spousal benefits to the partners of its GLBT employees. It even provides a subsidy for transgendered reassignment therapy as part of its benefits package.
post #389 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

You might recall that after Jesus prayed to the Father that he wouldn't have to go through with the scourging and crucifixion, he said, "yet not my will but yours be done." Jesus knew that the will of God the Father was what was important, even though he wanted very much to avoid the cross. But it was God's will that his son be sacrificed for all of mankind.

Likewise, whether or not Prop 8 passes or fails....God may stir the hearts of the voters to ban gay marriage, or he may stand back and let gay marriage become the law of the land, even though it's not what he wants.

Or maybe he'll stand back an dlet gay marriage become the law because it is what he wants. This is exactly what I mean; you define God's will as whatever you think it should be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

My brother is gay, and only God can change him. A law isn't going to do it.

No, God can't change him -- any more than he can change the color of his eyes, or his height, or any other biologically-coded attribute. Homosexuality is not behavioral; it's innate. It's not chosen, and it can't be changed. The sooner you understand that fact, the sooner you'll be at peace about your brother.
post #390 of 1350
The bigotry and backwards thinking this issue has exposed is horrifying.
post #391 of 1350
I'm a little stumped at the shots being lobbed at PC users. I mean honestly, you really thought you were that damn better than PC users? That thinking is as pious as the wingnut bigots. There are idiots everywhere, folks, including Mac users. One's computer platform of choice means jack squat to their (and your) intelligence.
post #392 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by YTV View Post

Sorry I'm not religious. But I do recognize that things are either right or wrong.

Its so bad, bacause its wrong. Just like pedophilia is wrong.

Pedophilia is wrong because it lacks informed consent. It involves an adult forcing a child, who is developmentally incompetent to understand the ramifications of the situation, and who is not in a position to defend him or herself, into activity that they are not physically or mentally capable of dealing with.

Quote:
Just like stabbing random old ladies is wrong.

Stabbing old ladies is wrong because it is a violation of the lady's acknowledged rights to her own property and physical safety.

Quote:
Just like touching your sister is wrong.

Sexual contact between closely related opposite-gender family members is considered wrong because, if procreation results, even unintentionally, the child is at a significantly increased risk of suffering severe physical and mental defects.

What rational explanation can you offer explaining why homosexuality is "wrong"?
post #393 of 1350
I find it somewhat ironic that those spouting bigoted bile on this thread because their views do not coincide with Apple's seem to have no problem with the fact that their views are also espoused by Al Qaeda and fudamentaist Islamic regimes.

Presumably they would be happier if a proposition to adopt Sharia Law was on the ballot in California
post #394 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone11 View Post

I would say Spain, because it's Mediterranean, but instead of going to Europe, why not come north?

because the further north I go, the colder it gets. Cold weather makes wearing hotpants uncomfortable
post #395 of 1350
Let gays get married-
1.) It's good for the economy.
But one question- Why does Barack Obama oppose gay marriage? Isn't gay marriage all about "CHANGE"?
post #396 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by nonanoplease View Post

The bigotry and backwards thinking this issue has exposed is horrifying.

Agreed. It really makes me very sad. And a bit angry, but I'm old enough to realize anger begets anger. So I'm just trying to have faith that folks will come to see the light.

Abraham Lincoln, although he had a wife and four or five children, also had extremely close relationships with men. In fact, he lived with one, Joshua Speed, through to the end of his life. And they slept in the same bed. He also slept with his body guard, David Derickson, when his wife was away, and folks gossiped about it.

On top of that, he wrote a poem when he was young about two men marrying. Although the poem (which did not center on gay marriage) was comical (and certainly did not condemn the marriage of two males) at the very least this proves that Lincoln had considered the idea of two men marrying as a concept.

Whether the great and much respected President Abraham Lincoln was bisexual is obviously up for debate. But face it, folks... there has been homosexuality in our culture for a very very long time, and it has done absolutely no harm whatsoever to heterosexual folk. It has not eroded family values one bit. And some of our best citizens have been at the very least bisexual.

A young boy watching Queer Eye, or Will and Grace is only going to get the idea to experiment with homosexuality if that desire lies within his heart to begin with. If anything, perhaps guys will be influenced to take better care of their image, but that too is an obnoxious stereotype. I'm gay and couldn't give a **** about the way I look. My house is not overly designed. I do not swish around effeminately. But I smile at that kind of behavior, as it's yet another manifestation of life.

Why do so many folks have to be afraid of things that are different? Can't you imagine that human culture is like a great piece of music with lots of different movements and sound textures? If it was all twangy country wouldn't you get a bit bored?
post #397 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent_Agniello View Post

Abraham Lincoln, although he had a wife and four or five children, also had extremely close relationships with men. In fact, he lived with one, Joshua Speed, through to the end of his life. And they slept in the same bed. He also slept with his body guard, David Derickson, when his wife was away, and folks gossiped about it.

On top of that, he wrote a poem when he was young about two men marrying. Although the poem (which did not center on gay marriage) was comical (and certainly did not condemn the marriage of two males) at the very least this proves that Lincoln had considered the idea of two men marrying as a concept.

Whether the great and much respected President Abraham Lincoln was bisexual is obviously up for debate. But face it, folks... there has been homosexuality in our culture for a very very long time, and it has done absolutely no harm whatsoever to heterosexual folk. It has not eroded family values one bit. And some of our best citizens have been at the very least bisexual.

Abraham Lincoln - a great Republican. ( you forgot to mention)
post #398 of 1350
Again, it is not about whether homosexuality is good or not. The problem is that many diehard apple fans will switch now to linux or even worse windows. Most of us have opinion about this problem, so buying apple products means supporting homosexuality. Remember the incident with McDonald? People even stopped to buy their hamburgers.

Homosexuality is no longer someones personal opinion. Many religions just deny it and there are a lot of fighting politicans. Some religions state the answer cleary. I suppose it's even prohibited in islam and no one objects it.
post #399 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

But one question- Why does Barack Obama oppose gay marriage? Isn't gay marriage all about "CHANGE"?

Because even his hate mongering racist church doesn't support it...
post #400 of 1350
I'm really shocked at the number of people who are insulting people who are saying they will no longer buy apple products because of this. That's exactly the power you have as a consumer (and just about the only power you have). I don't think insulting people because they choose to use their consumer power as they see fit is a bad thing. Would people be insulting a windows user who now wants an Apple because of this? I doubt it - tolerance is about much more than just tolerating the views of the minority - it's about tolerating the views of those different than you. If you support gay marriage but don't tolerate those who disagree with you then you're nothing more than an intolerant person. The point is it goes both ways (tolerance)...

On the topic of consumer power - after Kanye West did his little "Bush doesn't like Black people" thing I stopped listening to any of his music - ever. It has nothing to do with Bush and everything to do with some ridiculously rich guy playing the race card. If he cared about poor blacks of N.O. he would have donated a ton of his money but he didn't. Throw on top of that the posing as Jesus on the cover of a magazine (can't remember which) and he's nothing but an idiot with a good manager... Now, is me boycotting Kanye going to make any difference at all? Probably not but it's the power that I have as a consumer and I choose to use it.
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