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Apple contributes $100,000 to fight California's No on 8 battle - Page 14

post #521 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephenbw View Post

As this debate is about Apple donating $100,000 to the Californian campaign your views as a registered voter in Arizona are as equally valid/invalid as mine.

It's ironic that their is evidence that the funding for this proposition seems to be coming mainly from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) in Utah.

Even more ironic is that most Mormons have no problem with polygamy*, which is not recognized by any US state, including Utah. It seems that legalizing same-sex unions would be a step closer to getting their own abnormal marriage views accepted, but faith and religion has never been based on logic or rationale thought.
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post #522 of 1350
I think that Steve is trying to trick Republican stockholders into selling their Apple stock before it goes up. And if Republicans start ditching apple products in favor of windows, well - social conservatives kind of deserve the worst life that they can get, and that would include Windows at the very least.
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post #523 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinfella View Post

Freedom of speech also allows me to tell foreigners that I DGAFRA about what they think about this issue.

Which is why I didn't write that you couldn't state that. truth be told, my original wording would have sounded as such, but I caught myself before I posted.

While people outside our circle/family/city/state/country/whatever, don't have a direct impact on us, I would argue that by speaking up "outsiders' do have an influence over our decisions, even if it is in the long term.
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post #524 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephenbw View Post

Hmm.

As this debate is about Apple donating $100,000 to the Californian campaign your views as a registered voter in Arizona are no more valid/invalid than are mine.

I also live in California, at times, we go back and forth. That's allowed you know, one can change their place of residence at will. Moreover, I'm 100% against how gay marriage would effect the rest of my family living in California. Plus, the last time I looked, California was still part of the US, where I'm a citizen in good standing. Foreigners are neither.

As for Apple's part in this, it's their money, and they are California based. None of that means that I support their actions in this case. AFAIC, it's a moral issue, plain and simple. If gay marriage is allowed, then bigamy cannot be far behind, same for marriage to an animal. The line needs to be drawn.
post #525 of 1350
Thank you Appleinsider! This is the best debate on Proposition 8 that I have seen. A $100,000 donation is not a large enough sum to really directly affect Apple shareholders. Governing by propositions is problematic. As such, my proposition default vote is "No" unless I really have a strong view otherwise or "no" actually means "yes".
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post #526 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinfella View Post

My point, is that is doesn't matter a whit what non-voters think about this issue. I don't like European Socialism. but I have no say in the matter. This marriage issue is between two factions of voters, each with strongly held beliefs.

Freedom of speech also allows me to tell foreigners that I DGAFRA about what they think about this issue. We, the people will decide, and foreigners will have no influence in the matter. I know that they don't like that, but there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that they can do about it!

What's wrong with European Socialism?

Compared with the USA we work fewer hours and have much longer holidays, enjoy free health care for all and have a higher life expectancy, and have lower rates of poverty and murder.

What's not to like?

Despite this you still have the right to say you don't like it, and I will defend your right to do so.
post #527 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilco View Post

No, but it will allow you to legally use handicapped parking spots.

nice to see you're practicing tolerance of other's views (saying they can park in handicapped parking). Please see my previous post on how tolerance is more than just protecting the minority...
post #528 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It's ironic that their is evidence that the funding for this proposition seems to be coming mainly from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) in Utah.

Even more ironic is that most Mormons have no problem with polygamy*, which is not recognized by any US state, including Utah. It seems that legalizing same-sex unions would be a step closer to getting their own abnormal marriage views accepted, but faith and religion has never been based on logic or rationale thought.

Solopism, you're showing your ignorance of the modern Morman's postion on polygamy. There is an offshoot of the Morman religeon, and a very small one at that, that practices polygamy, but polygamy is by no means countenanced by the Church of Latter Day Saints.

Here in Arizona, we have TV spots against the constitutional amendment defining marriage as being between one man and one woman, and they are 100% non resident funded. While the Mormans have a large contingent here in Arizona, they are not even close to a majority, and the majority her support the amendment. Don't forget, all christian churches here support the amendment. We also have an even larger hispanic population here, the majority of which are Catholic, and they're dead in favor of the amendment. It will pass here, Mormans aside.
post #529 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

I think that Steve is trying to trick Republican stockholders into selling their Apple stock before it goes up. And if Republicans start ditching apple products in favor of windows, well - social conservatives kind of deserve the worst life that they can get, and that would include Windows at the very least.

Oh right, because only republicans oppose same-sex marriage. You have seen the recent polls that found nearly 75% of Americans oppose same-sex marriage right? Even Obama and Biden oppose it! Will the stereotyping never end???
post #530 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdmedeir View Post

Sorry Apple. You lost me on this one. Off come the Apple logos on our vehicles and I will no longer encourage my clients, friends and family to purchase Apple products. Even though Apple has superior products in the marketplace, I do not want to be associated with a company that's willing to chance alienating many of its customers by challenging their moral stance on an issue. To be more direct. I cannot associate with anyone that opposes the will of our Creator.

Amen! Bless you, cdmedeir, for joining me and a very few others on this forum in speaking the truth on this. May our Creator have his way with Apple as a corporation and with all those who support this abomination.
post #531 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmc6000 View Post

Oh right, because only republicans oppose same-sex marriage. You have seen the recent polls that found nearly 75% of Americans oppose same-sex marriage right? Even Obama and Biden oppose it! Will the stereotyping never end???

The minority always wants to control the majority. These guys never give up, so we just have to show them who's boss!
post #532 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinfella View Post

Solopism, you're showing your ignorance of the modern Morman's postion on polygamy. There is an offshoot of the Morman religeon, and a very small one at that, that practices polygamy, but polygamy is by no means countenanced by the Church of Latter Day Saints.

Here in Arizona, we have TV spots against the constitutional amendment defining marriage as being between one man and one woman, and they are 100% non resident funded. While the Mormans have a large contingent here in Arizona, they are not even close to a majority, and the majority her support the amendment. Don't forget, all christian churches here support the amendment. We also have an even larger hispanic population here, the majority of which are Catholic, and they're dead in favor of the amendment. It will pass here, Mormans aside.

I believe you are referring to the FLDS - we have an amendment here in Texas about only 1 man and 1 woman but those guys that got busted got off scott free...

Also, FWIW, Ohio has an amendment that establishes marriage as 1 man and 1 woman but not only that it doesn't even allow for civil unions of same-sex couples and if the state that's a pretty accurate microcosm of the US as a whole will pass that amendment (and it wasn't even close) that far sweeping I think that says a lot...
post #533 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinfella View Post

The minority always wants to control the majority. These guys never give up, so we just have to show them who's boss!

I must be missing your point because that's the basis of Democracy, majority rules...
post #534 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephenbw View Post

What's wrong with European Socialism?

Compared with the USA we work fewer hours and have much longer holidays, enjoy free health care for all and have a higher life expectancy, and have lower rates of poverty and murder.

What's not to like?

Despite this you still have the right to say you don't like it, and I will defend your right to do so.

I prefer to be self reliant, and maintain my freedom, not to mention all of those extra tax dollars that Europeans are forced to pay. As for free health care under socialism, ask the Canadians why they come here for care when they're able. Why is it that people are trying to sneak into the US, if socialism is so good?
post #535 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmc6000 View Post

I must be missing your point because that's the basis of Democracy, majority rules...


I meant that the minority, gays in this case, are trying to force their views on the majority. Sorry if I was too cryptic.
post #536 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmc6000 View Post

I must be missing your point because that's the basis of Democracy, majority rules...

See Namdnal Siroj Post #508 "Democracy in practice and concept is not about doing what the majority thinks should be done.
It's about how to delegate power. About the people voting for representatives to rule them. About mediating different views.
For these and other reasons, democracy has safeguards built in so that minorities are not "enslaved" as in the example."
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post #537 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmc6000 View Post

I believe you are referring to the FLDS - we have an amendment here in Texas about only 1 man and 1 woman but those guys that got busted got off scott free...

Also, FWIW, Ohio has an amendment that establishes marriage as 1 man and 1 woman but not only that it doesn't even allow for civil unions of same-sex couples and if the state that's a pretty accurate microcosm of the US as a whole will pass that amendment (and it wasn't even close) that far sweeping I think that says a lot...


Yes, the FLDS, which is really getting the attention of the Arizona authorities since Warren Jeffs put them on page one. I can only hope that the Texas debacle is not yet finished, and that justice will be done.
post #538 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinfella View Post

I also live in California, at times, we go back and forth. That's allowed you know, one can change their place of residence at will. Moreover, I'm 100% against how gay marriage would effect the rest of my family living in California. Plus, the last time I looked, California was still part of the US, where I'm a citizen in good standing. Foreigners are neither.

Forgive me if I have this wrong, but I assumed as you said that you were voting in Arizona, you would not also be allowed to do so in California. And you did say that this debate should be restricted to registered Californian voters, did you not?

As I say I am not an expert in the US political process, merely a keen and interested observer, as are many European Socialists.


Quote:
Originally Posted by zinfella View Post

As for Apple's part in this, it's their money, and they are California based. None of that means that I support their actions in this case. AFAIC, it's a moral issue, plain and simple. If gay marriage is allowed, then bigamy cannot be far behind, same for marriage to an animal. The line needs to be drawn.

What ridiculous nonsense.
Gay marriage has been allowed in many countries for many years and there has never been any question of extending it in the way that you suggest. That this is the level of debate to which you are prepared to stoop, just proves how irrational your objections are.
post #539 of 1350
This was a waste of company money, and troubles me as an Apple user. Apple is suppose to make public policy and use the money that investors like me give them to make better computers and grow their company. I think that they should be put on review for misappropriation of funds.

As well vote yes on 8. Marriage is between a man and woman. Domestic partnership is between two people of the same sex. They each have a word that describes their individual circumstances and each are garnered the same rights in California law. A rose is a rose and a tulip a tulip. Changing domestic partnerships name to marriage wont do anything for the gay community; it will only hurt the values of those that feel different.

Gay marriage will be taught in school if 8 fails. To say otherwise is an outright lie!
post #540 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmc6000 View Post

I must be missing your point because that's the basis of Democracy, majority rules...

Try telling that to Al Gore and the Americans who voted for him
post #541 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by city View Post

See Namdnal Siroj Post #508 "Democracy in practice and concept is not about doing what the majority thinks should be done.
It's about how to delegate power. About the people voting for representatives to rule them. About mediating different views.
For these and other reasons, democracy has safeguards built in so that minorities are not "enslaved" as in the example."

This is why America is a democratic republic dummy. The people are in-charge of the officials. the Officials civic duty is to support the interests of the society.
post #542 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by city View Post

See Namdnal Siroj Post #508 "Democracy in practice and concept is not about doing what the majority thinks should be done.
It's about how to delegate power. About the people voting for representatives to rule them. About mediating different views.
For these and other reasons, democracy has safeguards built in so that minorities are not "enslaved" as in the example."

Ok, that's one definition. And that's fine but that's not the only definition. And actually, if you're electing people to vote for you it's called a representative democracy not a democracy. So, no, the US doesn't have a "true" democracy but it's still very much a majority rules society and that is what democracy is about.

"1 a: government by the people ; especially : rule of the majority"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democracy
post #543 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephenbw View Post

Try telling that to Al Gore and the Americans who voted for him

You do realize that's not the only time the winner wasn't the true democratic winner right? I mean, Bill Clinton never got 50%...
post #544 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinfella View Post

I meant that the minority, gays in this case, are trying to force their views on the majority. Sorry if I was too cryptic.


Just like those uppity Negroes did back in the 50's and 60's \
post #545 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephenbw View Post

Try telling that to Al Gore and the Americans who voted for him

Evidently you're unaware that there were SEVERAL recounts of the 2000 Florida vote since that election, and Gore lost every one of them!
post #546 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephenbw View Post

Forgive me if I have this wrong, but I assumed as you said that you were voting in Arizona, you would not also be allowed to do so in California. And you did say that this debate should be restricted to registered Californian voters, did you not?

As I say I am not an expert in the US political process, merely a keen and interested observer, as are many European Socialists.




What ridiculous nonsense.
Gay marriage has been allowed in many countries for many years and there has never been any question of extending it in the way that you suggest. That this is the level of debate to which you are prepared to stoop, just proves how irrational your objections are.

I have been, and will again be a registered voter in California, or Arizona, depending on my residence at any given time. You, OTOH, will never be either.

What frosts you is that European socialism has no say in this matter. I really could not care less about how you treat gay marriage, my only concern is how we treat it. You secularists are pretty much all alike, wrong!
post #547 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinfella View Post

I meant that the minority, gays in this case, are trying to force their views on the majority. Sorry if I was too cryptic.

Fairness should rule. There are a lot of members of this minority.
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post #548 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmc6000 View Post

You do realize that's not the only time the winner wasn't the true democratic winner right? I mean, Bill Clinton never got 50%...

Oh I do. The same is true here in the UK. The winning party rarely gets close to 50%, the current government received only 35% of votes cast (22% of the electorate) in 2005.

I was simply pointing out that 'Democracy' does not necessarily mean 'Majority'
post #549 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephenbw View Post

Just like those uppity Negroes did back in the 50's and 60's \


I see, you aren't able to see a difference between racism and gay marriage. That means that I've been having a conversation with a fool. Adios.
post #550 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinfella View Post

Solopism, you're showing your ignorance of the modern Morman's postion on polygamy

That may be the church's "modern day" stance, but it wasn't that long ago that the Church felt differently about the subject, and it's because the US Gov't opened up a can of whoop ass on the church that the official practice stopped. But one of the main reasons for the Western Migration to Utah was based on polygamy, so forgive me if I don't feel that a 20th century abolition of a religious practice because of a government's strong arm means that the fundamentals of the church have actually changed even if they do publicly excommunicate members for the practice.
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post #551 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by city View Post

Fairness should rule. Their are a lot of members of this minority.

A lot? How about 5%? That doesn't qualify as a lot in my dictionary. It's a very small minority. Your idea of fairness is that the 5% should holds sway over the 95%. Brilliant..................not!
post #552 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinfella View Post

Evidently you're unaware that there were SEVERAL recounts of the 2000 Florida vote since that election, and Gore lost every one of them!

Who mentioned Florida?

I was referring to the fact that in terms of the popular vote, Al Gore received half a million more votes than George Bush.
post #553 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That may be the church's "modern day" stance, but it wasn't that long ago that the Church felt differently about the subject, and it's because the US Gov't opened up a can of whoop ass on the church that the official practice stopped. But one of the main reasons for the Western Migration to Utah was based on polygamy, so forgive me if I don't feel that a 20th century abolition of a religious practice because of a government's strong arm means that the fundamentals of the church have actually changed.


We used to have slavery here too, but it's also been abolished, and plays no role in modern society.
post #554 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinfella View Post

A lot? How about 5%? That doesn't qualify as a lot in my dictionary. It's a very small minority. Your idea of fairness is that the 5% should holds sway over the 95%. Brilliant..................not!

No, you will not have to marry someone of the same gender.
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post #555 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by city View Post

No, you will not have to marry someone of the same gender.

Here, there will be no marriages between the same gender, period.
post #556 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinfella View Post

I see, you aren't able to see a difference between racism and gay marriage. That means that I've been having a conversation with a fool. Adios.

My response was a retort to the point that minorities shouldn't influence majorities.

And if you didn't get that, then more fool you.
post #557 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinfella View Post

Here, there will be no marriages between the same gender, period.

"And this too shall pass"

" How much it expresses! How chastening in the hour of pride! How consoling in the depths of affliction!"


Abraham Lincoln 1859
post #558 of 1350
I applaud Apple and Google for their public opposition to California's Prop 8.
post #559 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Londor View Post

I applaud Apple and Google for their public opposition to California's Prop 8.

I object to the use of shareholder's money for this purpose. Next!
post #560 of 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinfella View Post

We used to have slavery here too, but it's also been abolished, and plays no role in modern society.

"We used to have slavery here too, but it's also been abolished, yet racism still exists in modern society."

"We used to have no suffrage for women here too, but it's also been abolished, yet sexism still remains in modern society."

As I stated, essentially stating, "Since you have now told us it's illegal and wrong for the umpteenth time and you are shown your force of will on this matte, we, all-of-a -sudden don't feel that way anymore about polygamy." doesn't fly with me. A public agreement to abolish something doesn't change the fundamental basics of a religion. Culture and viewpoints do change, but it's a gradual process that takes generations, just like there are plenty of racists and sexists in America who are that way because of how they were raised.
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