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post #41 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by icfireball View Post

1. Voter fraud doesn't occur until the fraudulent votes have been cast.

And in this case they were. Theory became practice. Can we drop this posturing now?
post #42 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

What I'm curious about is what a legitimate reason is.

Amazing that I have to say this.

You should vote for the candidate based on their abilities, policies and character.

Not because "All the others are, and I don't want to look like a loser".

America!!! Home of the Free (sheep).
post #43 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floor Jack View Post

And in this case they were. Theory became practice. Can we drop this posturing now?

What posturing?

That voter fraud has never occurred before?

That some voter fraud will always exist regardless of voting methodology?

In other words, there is no perfect system for voting that is infallible?

Or that voter fraud occurs from all sides?

Or that the example you provided is a minuscule number that doesn't amount to a hill of 14 beans out of a possible mountain of 150,000,000 beans?
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post #44 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Can we drop this posturing now?

I'd ask the same thing from you, but....that's your proof of massive fraud?

The phrase grasping at straws comes to mind.
post #45 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Or that voter fraud occurs from all sides?

Yes, the system is rife with fraud and manipulation. As far as tinkering with the voting machines goes, I don't have any real answers, but as far as it goes in the run up to the vote, I know this from sources who became delegates this year. Intimidation, fraud, changing vote counts when they were inconvenient... it's a real knife fight.

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post #46 of 118
Thread Starter 
gastroboy:

Quote:
You should vote for the candidate based on their abilities, policies and character.

Not because "All the others are, and I don't want to look like a loser".

Was "I don't want to look like a loser" his rationale?

Here is what he said: "Obama's going to win, and I didn't want to tell my grandchildren some day that I had an opportunity to vote for the first black president, but I missed my chance at history and voted for the other guy."

That's quite a bit different than just bandwaggoning on the winning team.

Sorry, but this is a historic election. Cry all you like, it is what it is.
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post #47 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

I voted today early and Grove I used the same machine that you show in your opening post.

I voted Obama

Fellows

post #48 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

gastroboy:



Was "I don't want to look like a loser" his rationale?

Here is what he said: "Obama's going to win, and I didn't want to tell my grandchildren some day that I had an opportunity to vote for the first black president, but I missed my chance at history and voted for the other guy."

That's quite a bit different than just bandwaggoning on the winning team.

Sorry, but this is a historic election. Cry all you like, it is what it is.

Who's crying?

The guy switched sides at the last minute on a whim because he wanted to tell his grandchildren he had voted for the 1st winning black president, not some white loser.

What deep consideration went into this?

He should not be voting for Obama because he is black or entering the Guiness Book of Records.

Absurd as it seems he should be voting for him because he would make the better President.

No wonder American "Democracy" is the farce it is.

My only hope is that all the irrational crazy votes on one side cancel out all the irrational crazy votes on the other side.
post #49 of 118
Thread Starter 
Quote:
What deep consideration went into this?

The historical nature of such an election given America's centuries-long history of racial strife and oppression.

Quote:
Absurd as it seems he should be voting for him because he would make the better President.

What if he has an equal opinion of both with regards to their ability to be president?

Do you really, truly, and sincerely think you're some emotion-free, objective party involved in this?
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post #50 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post


Artman you do at times crack me up with your selections of what you do so well with the images you have tucked up your sleeve.

I thought quite hard about "would I really feel comfortable authorizing either of these two" with my vote.

I knew I could not be comfortable with more of the same as I have seen Republican leaders tell their constituents what they want to hear with regard to some issues (not really delivering on these matters however with anything meaningful) yet governed on other matters with complete and utter recklessness as I see it. The main thing being the ballooning debt we are passing to the future generations. I just don't sit well with a party which says they are "conservative" yet during the 8 years of a president with 6 years majority control in Washington we find ourselves doubling the national debt. That is not conservative in any sense of the word fiscally speaking. They failed and who in their right mind can give a stamp of approval once again with such a failed record?

Not myself.

Could I have not voted as I considered?

Sure but that did not ultimately sit well with me in the end. I chose to vote for Barack Obama not due to any matter of race in any regard but rather for matters of judgement, intelligence and thoughtfulness which I have seen clearly displayed by Barack. I believe the United States needs a leader who is rational, patient and steady. I feel Barack meets these needs.

I also believe the irrational fear mongering of some on the right is just plain silly season and a major turn off.

Respectfully,

Fellows
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #51 of 118
Grove, do you get a paper trail with those machines?
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #52 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Considering that Bush vs Gore was split just about 50/50 and Bush vs Kerry was split just around 50/50 and McCain vs Obama is split just about 50/50 tells me that this election isn't all that different from the last ones.

Obama vs McCain is 60/40 right now.
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post #53 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

The historical nature of such an election.....................

What if he has an equal opinion of both with regards to their ability to be president?

Agree. The historical nature of this election cannot be overstated.

Not only is Obama a much better choice than McCain, but he also happens to be black. End of.
post #54 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

I never made such and argument at all. I think most people are voting for Obama because he's the democrat and most people don't cross party lines. Most people's brains are shut down they just punch "democrat" or "republican" without thinking about it.

Considering that Bush vs Gore was split just about 50/50 and Bush vs Kerry was split just around 50/50 and McCain vs Obama is split just about 50/50 tells me that this election isn't all that different from the last ones.

Really?

Obama is projected to win by a landslide by every major projection.

For example: http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/

This election is nothing like the 2000 and 2004 elections.
post #55 of 118
Thread Starter 
No paper trail as far as I know. You get a nice confirmation screen, though.
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post #56 of 118
post #57 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

No paper trail as far as I know. You get a nice confirmation screen, though.

Yep. It will be fun to see when exit polls show Obama ahead by 10 points in Ohio, but McCain mysteriously wins by 3 points because Diebold wasn't able to remove their viruses in time.
post #58 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Obama vs McCain is 60/40 right now.

What? Is that in your own house or is that a real poll result? Maybe you're talking about the EC? The RCP average is +7.6 right now.
post #59 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

What? Is that in your own house or is that a real poll result? Maybe you're talking about the EC? The RCP average is +7.6 right now.

Electoral college is 364 to 174 - and 7.6% lead is not 50:50, which is what you were saying.

www.electionprojection.com
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
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post #60 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Electoral college is 364 to 174 - and 7.6% lead is not 50:50, which is what you were saying.

www.electionprojection.com

There may be some things that you don't know about the EC. In many states EC is a winner take all election. So if Obama wins by one vote, call it 50.1 to 49.9 for McCain, Obama gets 100% of the EC in that state. So EC does not reflect the popular vote in the country.

And then also of you go back and actually read the actual words that I actually typed I wrote (read this time?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

I never made such and argument at all. I think most people are voting for Obama because he's the democrat and most people don't cross party lines. Most people's brains are shut down they just punch "democrat" or "republican" without thinking about it.

Considering that Bush vs Gore was split just about 50/50 and Bush vs Kerry was split just around 50/50 and McCain vs Obama is split just about 50/50 tells me that this election isn't all that different from the last ones.

Considering Obama is around 7% and the margin of error on poll runs 3-5% I'd call that just about 50/50.

Wouldn't you?
post #61 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Considering Obama is around 7% and the margin of error on poll runs 3-5% I'd call that just about 50/50.

Wouldn't you?

If you are rounding like that - I'd say that 60/40 is just as close as your 50/50. The real number is 45/53. Margin of error goes both ways.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
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post #62 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Considering Obama is around 7% and the margin of error on poll runs 3-5% I'd call that just about 50/50.

Wouldn't you?

I'd call that somewhere between 57/43 and 52/48.
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post #63 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Considering Obama is around 7% and the margin of error on poll runs 3-5% I'd call that just about 50/50.

Wouldn't you?

This election isn't even close to 50/50 where it counts...the EC. Current polling (that takes into account state-by-state polling) and projections (based on all of the EC rules) have Obama winning 351-187, 364-174 or 375-157 (6 tied) in three different projections. The election is over Obama has won it. The election was over about 2 months ago. As they say it's all over but the shouting (or the counting in this case).

The more important issue now is how Obama and the Democrats will govern since they will have full control of the government for (at least) 2 years. Naturally, the excuse making has already begun here ("The mess is just too big to be fixed that soon." or "They don't really have full control." (but the Republicans did of course ) Whatever. They will now have to govern and there will be no one to blame (for 2 years anyway).

Will Obama be the socialist he's promised to be or will he drift to the "center"?
Will the Democrats, high on winning and drunk with power, get greedy about passing their complete big(ger) government agenda?
Will we see an even bigger expansion of government than we have under Bush?
What about fiscal restraint? Will there be any?
How much longer will the recession (depression) be as a result of Obama's soak the rich tax plan?
When will Obama sign the executive order for the withdrawal of troops from Iraq? The first day? What will be his first broken promise?

Those are the interesting questions at this point.

This election is over.
post #64 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by sslarson View Post

This election isn't even close to 50/50 where it counts...the EC. Current polling (that takes into account state-by-state polling) and projections (based on all of the EC rules) have Obama winning 351-187, 364-174 or 375-157 (6 tied) in three different projections. The election is over Obama has won it. The election was over about 2 months ago. As they say it's all over but the shouting (or the counting in this case).

The more important issue now is how Obama and the Democrats will govern since they will have full control of the government for (at least) 2 years. Naturally, the excuse making has already begun here ("The mess is just too big to be fixed that soon." or "They don't really have full control." (but the Republicans did of course ) Whatever. They will now have to govern and there will be no one to blame (for 2 years anyway).

Will Obama be the socialist he's promised to be or will he drift to the "center"?
Will the Democrats, high on winning and drunk with power, get greedy about passing their complete big(ger) government agenda?
Will we see an even bigger expansion of government than we have under Bush?
What about fiscal restraint? Will there be any?
How much longer will the recession (depression) be as a result of Obama's soak the rich tax plan?
When will Obama sign the executive order for the withdrawal of troops from Iraq? The first day? What will be his first broken promise?

Those are the interesting questions at this point.

This election is over.

If Obama wins, or if McCain wins, and if the economy is still in the proverbial crapper, either will have to move to the center, and will be forced to apply some significant measures of fiscal restraint. There just won't be a significant increase in the revenue stream, even if the top 5% sees a significant tax increase per Obama's plan.

Bush = Hoover
Obama != Roosevelt
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #65 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Obama vs McCain is 60/40 right now.

This is not allowing for the Bradley effect where voters publicly espouse a non-racially biased voter intent then in the privacy of the voting booth massively vote against a black candidate.

This could cost Obama at least 10% if not more. Enough to let McCain scrape in.

As awful as that thought may be. Another 4 yrs of the Republicans and you may as well pull the plug on America.
post #66 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

What if he has an equal opinion of both with regards to their ability to be president?

What if a pretty little butterfly dances in front of him in the polling booth and he flip flops again.

It is really disturbing that you, and he, have so little regard or understanding of the responsibilities of voting.

Who knows what the guy actually did vote when he got inside? See above posting.
post #67 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by gastroboy View Post

This is not allowing for the Bradley effect where voters publicly espouse a non-racially biased voter intent then in the privacy of the voting booth massively vote against a black candidate.

This could cost Obama at least 10% if not more. Enough to let McCain scrape in.

As awful as that thought may be. Another 4 yrs of the Republicans and you may as well pull the plug on America.

The Bradley effect never existed. The fact that it is even discussed as a serious consideration is laughable and sad.
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post #68 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by sslarson View Post

Naturally, the excuse making has already begun here ("The mess is just too big to be fixed that soon." or "They don't really have full control." (but the Republicans did of course ) Whatever. They will now have to govern and there will be no one to blame (for 2 years anyway).

Could you please point me to the posts or links to the "excuse making" you're talking about?

Quote:
Those are the interesting questions at this point.

Too bad you didn't pose those questions at the time you were carrying the water for Bush all those years.

Will be waiting for you to post those links.
post #69 of 118
Having eagerly and industriously run the country into a smoking crater over the better part of the last decade, wingers can now commence droning on about how Obama's failure to usher in utopia within 6 months represents some kind of historic failure of liberalism and an epic betrayal of his hypnotized supporters.

Because in addition to be being gratingly stupid and immune to reality, your modern winger is without shame or decency.
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post #70 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

The Bradley effect never existed. The fact that it is even discussed as a serious consideration is laughable and sad.

Got you. It doesn't exist, wink wink!
post #71 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

The Bradley effect never existed. The fact that it is even discussed as a serious consideration is laughable and sad.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/165030

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/...-happened.html

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/...nt-effect.html

While Nate Silver does think there is evidence the Bradley effect existed in the 80's and early 90's, there isn't any evidence for it currently.
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post #72 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

http://www.newsweek.com/id/165030

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/...-happened.html

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/...nt-effect.html

While Nate Silver does think there is evidence the Bradley effect existed in the 80's and early 90's, there isn't any evidence for it currently.

I am not convinced that it was a Bradley effect or just that racist showed up to the polls in larger numbers. It is one thing to lie to a pollster, it is another to not be counted by a pollster...
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post #73 of 118
Poor Scott.

John McCain is less popular than Barack Obama.

More people like Barack Obama than John McCain.

John McCain is very old, and inconsistent, and his VP's not very good.

Barack Obama is very smart and everyone loves him.

He's going to win.

post #74 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

No paper trail as far as I know. You get a nice confirmation screen, though.

Thanks for the reply. Odd that I didn't get a notification.

I understand that America has 10X more people than we do, but I still don't get why your voting system is so screwed up.

We voted two weeks ago. Paper ballot. Marked with an X. Read by computer.

In tight races where the margin of victory was within 1%, there's an automatic judicial recount.

How do you conduct a recount if there's no paper trail?
How do you verify that someone hasn't tampered with the machines?

I'm conservative, so I'm less likely to be a Diebold-hating conspiracy theorist. But I still understand the need for the election process to be bulletproof, open and transparent.

This is the second Presidential election since the Florida fiasco.
Why haven't you guys turned over the running of elections to a non-partisan agency yet?
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #75 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Thanks for the reply. Odd that I didn't get a notification.
I understand that America has 10X more people than we do, but I still don't get why your voting system is so screwed up.
We voted two weeks ago. Paper ballot. Marked with an X. Read by computer.
tight races where the margin of victory was within 1%, there's an automatic judicial recount.
How do you conduct a recount if there's no paper trail?
How do you verify that someone hasn't tampered with the machines?
I'm conservative, so I'm less likely to be a Diebold-hating conspiracy theorist. But I still understand the need for the election process to be bulletproof, open and transparent.
This is the second Presidential election since the Florida fiasco.
Why haven't you guys turned over the running of elections to a non-partisan agency yet?

You are correct. Paper ballot with an X should be how it's done. I'd love to have a copy of my ballot where I marked my choices with a big freaking X so I could frame it if I wanted.

I disagree about Diebold though. Not a conspiracy buff myself but those machines are incredibly easy to tamper with by ANYONE with above average knowledge of computers.

It's funny how we send monitors to elections around the world when our own system is probably laughed at elsewhere. And Election Day should be a Holiday as well.
post #76 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

I am not convinced that it was a Bradley effect or just that racist showed up to the polls in larger numbers. It is one thing to lie to a pollster, it is another to not be counted by a pollster...

Indeed, that certainly sounds plausible to me. But whatever the reason, it doesn't appear to be with us anymore, thankfully.
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post #77 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan i Sabbah View Post

John McCain is very old, and inconsistent, and his VP's not very good.

Am I the only one that read this as 'incontinent'?
post #78 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outsider View Post

Am I the only one that read this as 'incontinent'?

Either way, it means the same thing...

Meanwhile...

Sequoia Voting Systems has admitted to not printing and mailing over 11,000 absentee ballots to Denver.

Isn't it convenient that the ballots were destined for the most urban (and therefore most Democratic-leaning) part of the entire state.

GOP/Sequoia... great job. Fascist pigs.
post #79 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Either way, it means the same thing...

Meanwhile...

Sequoia Voting Systems has admitted to not printing and mailing over 11,000 absentee ballots to Denver.

Isn't it convenient that the ballots were destined for the most urban (and therefore most Democratic-leaning) part of the entire state.

GOP/Sequoia... great job. Fascist pigs.

Everyone involved needs to be immediately rounded up and shot.

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post #80 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilsch View Post

It's funny how we send monitors to elections around the world when our own system is probably laughed at elsewhere.

Not probably.

The only place to copy the US system was your ex-colony the Philippines and we know what a success that has been.
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