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Apple to sweeten Snow Leopard with more Cocoa - Page 2

post #41 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

You wrote:

Objective-C is a superset of the C Programming Language. To lose the C would be to kill Objective-C. This isn't C++ which thinks it's a better, more complete C.

Objective-C interfaces into Core Text while low level algorithms for Text handling in C persist is the point of Objective-C and it's relationship with C. I urge people who write articles on Cocoa to first learn Objective-C. Otherwise, you show a lack of understanding that is critical to the purpose behind Cocoa and the Objective-C MVC/KVC models of software development.

Can you highlight what in the article you were taking issue with? It's not obvious from your quote. What error or contradiction are you seeing?
post #42 of 69
So, this is just another way Apple is trying to reduce its Carbon footprint?

(Aw c'mon, it was such a good set up.)
post #43 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloggerblog View Post

Be careful what you wish for, Adobe seems to be developing its own "environment" along with their own programming languages.
Now that Apple has a solid cash reserve, it's time for them to invest it in the obvious and buy Adobe. And if they do, I hope SJ won't screw things up by turning the CS Suite into a cheesy iHome suite for his kids or something.

I wish for Adobe to create an "environment" that doesn't suck donkey balls. All Adobe is using for some of their interfaces is Lua. And Flex is utter shit. I know, I've developed enough in Flex (a huge app, probably too huge for the likings of Flex and quite a few smaller apps) to know that it's going nowhere fast for serious development.

If Adobe can stop fucking its customers and start making Flash suck less or start using native interfaces for their flagship apps, it *will* fail.
post #44 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Adobe is going nowhere until Pixelmator does CMYK. For designers, the software is unusable without it.

But when Pixelmator does get CMYK, Adobe will be going DOOOOWN.
post #45 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince View Post

Can you highlight what in the article you were taking issue with? It's not obvious from your quote. What error or contradiction are you seeing?

I did.

Quote:
What Cocoa does for users

For users, the move to Cocoa means that applications will have more consistent appearance and behavior. Apps that make use of standardized interface controls rather than building their own will not only be more familiar, but users will also benefit from the code exercise and reuse, which removes bugs and allows for centralized optimizations. In other words, Apple can address user interface problems that in turn impact all apps.

This doesn't mean Apple is abandoning Carbon or a variety of other new APIs that are similarly procedural, C language APIs. The new (in Leopard) Core Text is defined as part of Carbon, and Cocoa provides an object oriented wrapper for it in the Cocoa Text System. Core Video, QuickTime, and Quartz lie outside the definitions of Carbon and Cocoa, and Apple presents dual Cocoa and Carbon interfaces for working with these.

Rather than the removal of Carbon, Apple's move to Cocoa in Snow Leopard is a consolidation of future efforts, starting with the user interface. More effort has gone recently into making new Cocoa 'kits' than in building entirely new Carbon APIs. The QTKit, PDFKit, and Core Animation are all examples of new, recommended Cocoa tools for doing things that are easier and more powerful than building from scratch in Carbon.

Objective-C is a reflective, object-oriented programming language which adds Smalltalk-style messaging to C. ---not a bad definition from Wikipedia.

Better definition:

Quote:
The Objective-C language is a simple computer language designed to enable sophisticated object-oriented programming. Objective-C is defined as a small but powerful set of extensions to the standard ANSI C language. Its additions to C are mostly based on Smalltalk, one of the first object-oriented programming languages. Objective-C is designed to give C full object-oriented programming capabilities, and to do so in a simple and straightforward way.

This notion that Objective-C and C are not related, as implied in this commentary, is ludicrous.
post #46 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by kim kap sol View Post

Did your crystal ball tell you this?

Neither Pages nor Keynote have destroyed MsOffice, haven't they? Even Final Cut's success story hasn't destroyed videoediting and compositing on Windows (and one could say that Apple is losing some steam and conceding high-end compositing back to Nuke et al. after killing Shake and failing to produce a sucessor.

Apple has no reason to fault Adobe or anybody else: too many "transitions" without previous warning, plus some backstabbing here and there (like promising a Carbon64 UI API, letting everybody including Adobe target that for a full year and then pulling the rug from under them at WWDC'07 and cancelling it) make Apple oh so charming a partner in business. So Apple has to do what it has to do, but so does Adobe.
post #47 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snafu View Post

Neither Pages nor Keynote have destroyed MsOffice, haven't they?

YES, IT IS! Now be quiet. iWorks is stealing sales from Microsoft.

Apple doesn't need to destroy Microsot. Microsoft is self-destructing as we speak. A week ago Ballmer was flaunting the fact that Mac Office was not 'full Office' because it was missing Access and other apps. What a fucker...when you've got an ass like that as a CEO telling the Mac customers they're dumb fucks for buying the Office package, you know that company has no future.

Nobody that saw that gem of a quote would ever consider buying Mac Office in the future.
post #48 of 69
Off topic, but has anyone else seen the spinning beach ball while reading the article about Cocoa (not this thread)? For me it happened with Safari and Opera on an Intel iMac and a white MacBook.

I had the Force Quit the browsers.

After reading the article again, and the article about the iPhone price, I recognized, that it took under a minute after the pages fully loaded, that the browser became unresponsive.
post #49 of 69
Does anyone know if Snow Leopard is actually going to be Intel only and drop PPC support altogether? I should hope that G5's would still be supported...
post #50 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macvault View Post

I just can't beleive Apple has let certain inconsistent and/or ugly elements of the Aqua GUI last and it looks like these elements will live through Snow Leopard too.

Elements such as the blue, bubbly scroll bars, or the shadows behind windows, etc.

Mac OS X is WAY due for a GUI overhaul or at least a serious polishing.

Well... I do agree all aqua elements must be replaced by nice, out of the way, professional looking, matte (or whatever they're called) elements like the itunes scrollbar (or iphone scrollbar ). Also, it should all be available in a graphite color. One of the main parts of the UI (or GUI...) that needs redesigned, imo, is the save page. There still remains elements from... a long time ago. Preference windows, too.

Anyway, yay for Snow Leopard. I can't wait until it is released.
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post #51 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by kim kap sol View Post

If Adobe can stop <censored> its customers and start making Flash suck less or start using native interfaces for their flagship apps, it *will* fail.

Adobe is a tough cookie to take a bite off of, you gotta swallow it whole.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Snafu

Neither Pages nor Keynote have destroyed MsOffice, haven't they? Even Final Cut's success story hasn't destroyed videoediting and compositing on Windows (and one could say that Apple is losing some steam and conceding high-end compositing back to Nuke et al. after killing Shake and failing to produce a sucessor.

MS Office is still king, although as Kim Kap said, it does have an effect on MS at some level but I don't think it's serious enough. Apple had kicked it's customers in the nads several times before with suites that were implied to be alternatives to Office. I for one am playing it safe and saving my Pages docs in .doc format when convenient.
It's a pattern with Apple to abandon software and especially hardware that seemed to be doing well. I do not understand why Apple is abandoning Shake as much as I'm utterly flabbergasted as to why OS X Leopard Server is virtually useless. Does Apple really believe that Motion 3 is a reasonable alternative to Shake!? or do they think that the pro market is not their focus anymore? I'm leaning towards the latter and I think it's a grave mistake, because the pro market supports the user market.
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post #52 of 69
Apple, with it's $25 billion dollar war chest.... it should acquire Pixelmator. Now, Adobe would really be scared.

And as far as Shake goes, I heard that Apple was reworking it in Cocoa. Also, I heard that it might include it in the Final Cut Studio suite.
post #53 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by cozagada View Post

Hi, I feel compelled to write my first post ever on AI :

Do not touch my beloved bubbly scroll bars !

I'm jumping on the glossy, translucent, water-drop scroll bar fan bandwagon too. It has taken me a long time to accommodate the "powder" scroll bars in iTunes.
post #54 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by iMik-e View Post

Apple, with it's $25 billion dollar war chest.... it should acquire Pixelmator. Now, Adobe would really be scared.

And as far as Shake goes, I heard that Apple was reworking it in Cocoa. Also, I heard that it might include it in the Final Cut Studio suite.

Dude, Pixelmator is made by 2 guys in there twenties living somewhere in London. Apple doesn't need their 25 billion to acquire them

I just hope Apple doesn't release something that puts the Pixelmator guys out of business, they're doing such a great job. One of only a handfull non-Apple apps that OSX can be really proud of.
post #55 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorre View Post

Dude, Pixelmator is made by 2 guys in there twenties living somewhere in London. Apple doesn't need their 25 billion to acquire them

I just hope Apple doesn't release something that puts the Pixelmator guys out of business, they're doing such a great job. One of only a handfull non-Apple apps that OSX can be really proud of.

You must've understood me. I didn't mean that apple should use the ENTIRE $25 billion to acquire Pixelmator. That will be incredibly stupid. Just because apple acquires a company doesn't necessarily mean that Apple will put it out of business.

But of course, all of this is just my opinion.
post #56 of 69
For me, there's absolutely no doubt! It's the continuity for Apple.

The final goal is to use the current electronic method for the Software distribution; and of course having a shared platform between several device: Mobile device (portable computer, phone, laptop, netbook, tablet, etc...), desktop computer, Living room system (TV, Game station, DVR), etc...

The iPhone and App Store really demonstrated there's a huge potential of success for developers to develop low price application. It's also remove any "installation pain and headache" method from what Windows users are used to....

A simple Click to buy, download and then install a new application is really the way to go...

With our great Internet network, it's not a big deal to download large file (if we do for movie, why shouldn't do it for a large application or game??).

So, there's no doubt Apple will sooner or later propose the App Store for all of their devices... not only the iPhone.

To make it right, it would be also great to have a similar platform for the development... That way, a developer already invested in the iPhone development process and method, will easily develop for the other devices and future devices such: netbook/Tablet, TV, Game Station, Home Automation, etc....

It would be easier to develop an application or game and have them ready to be purchased and used on any type of device you should have.... or even have on all of them. You start to play a game on a TV, and you will finish it on your Tablet or iPhone.... etc...

That's how I clearly see our Digital Life

Spid
post #57 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by spid

So, there's no doubt Apple will sooner or later propose the App Store for all of their devices... not only the iPhone.

Which is why I added an App Store icon on that Mac touch (tablet) mockup I made recently. The tablet would be the "perfect" candidate for their second App Store.
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post #58 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Booga View Post

In general, Resolution Independence is a way to spend a lot of extra processing power to make things slower and look worse. Instead of pixel-perfect icons you get kinda-sorta rasterized icons that may or may not look good at a particular resolution.

It's only worse when trying to scale large bitmaps to small sizes (and in some cases vector drawing to small sizes) - i.e. 16x16 pixels or smaller. Larger than that - bitmap scaling and vector drawing look fine. And with the DPI of displays increasing, 16x16 icons are soon going to be a thing of the past.
post #59 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by wheeles View Post

Will the new Finder do away with the assortment of junk that the old one still creates, like .DS_Store, Desktop DB and Desktop DF files?

Heh heh, Desktop DB and Desktop DF are from MacOS 9, not the Carbon Finder. You can delete Desktop DB and Desktop DF now and they won't come back unless you launch a Classic app.

.DS_Store files aren't likely going to go away - they hold meta data needed by the Finder.
post #60 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by kim kap sol View Post

But when Pixelmator does get CMYK, Adobe will be going DOOOOWN.

and RAW support
and editable channels
and configurable brushes
and...

Pixelmator is a nice app, but it's not close to Photoshop in features yet.
post #61 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by spinnerlys View Post

Off topic, but has anyone else seen the spinning beach ball while reading the article about Cocoa (not this thread)? For me it happened with Safari and Opera on an Intel iMac and a white MacBook.

I had the Force Quit the browsers.

No. Perhaps your network connection is acting up.
post #62 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav View Post

and RAW support
and editable channels
and configurable brushes
and...

Pixelmator is a nice app, but it's not close to Photoshop in features yet.

That's why I gave my conservative estimate of "this time next year" for feature-parity (or nearly so).

Why do I get the impression most of the replies I get are knee-jerk reactions?
post #63 of 69
Pixelmator is good software, but Apple doesn't need to acquire them.

Everything Apple needs for a Photoshop competitor already exists within Aperture, ColorSync and the FCP suite.

If you think Adobe hasn't noticed that, think again. Aperture was a warning shot over the bow.
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post #64 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Pixelmator is good software, but Apple doesn't need to acquire them.

Everything Apple needs for a Photoshop competitor already exists within Aperture, ColorSync and the FCP suite.

If you think Adobe hasn't noticed that, think again. Aperture was a warning shot over the bow.

Aperture is for photographers, plain and simple. It's not designed to be a Photoshop competitor.

Maybe Apple doesn't need to acquire Pixelmator or design a direct Photoshop competitor. It depends on how this idea will fit into their strategy.

I'm seriously hoping to pull away from Adobe as much as possible. It seems that Adobe's focus isn't graphics. They seem to be putting so much energy into their flash/flex/air platform. It other words, I think Adobe's more interested in becoming a media company. I could be wrong. But... it's just something about the company that makes me not trust them.
post #65 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by iMik-e View Post

... They seem to be putting so much energy into their flash/flex/air platform. It other words, I think Adobe's more interested in becoming a media company. I could be wrong. But... it's just something about the company that makes me not trust them.

Adobe never understood the web. Remember PageMill which tarnished Adobe's image as a credible web company, then to try and recover, they baught CyberStudio the best darn web dev software of its time, changed its name to GoLive and screwed up again big time, meanwhile Adobe released ImageReady, a competitor to Fireworks, a head scratcher that was recently consumed by Photoshop, finally Adobe dumped their pride and purchased Macromedia, a company that gets the web.
Now Adobe is at it again, under the impression that web-languages are the hot thing, the reality is otherwise, a true breakthrough to the internet would be a development platform that requires no programming, something that resembles or functions similar to PDF or postscript, languages that are written visually, no not like Flash. Maybe a DreamWeaver that works more like InDesign.
But I think Adobe is going to eventually succeed with their new platforms because they are being adopted by large corporations and the US government. I wish I had a dime for every time a recruiter asked me if I could program in Flex.

If Apple buys Adobe, it'll make MS look even more boring and outdated. But best of all, Adobe is very profitable and they sit on many patents and technologies.
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post #66 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by iMik-e View Post

Aperture is for photographers, plain and simple. It's not designed to be a Photoshop competitor.


Of course it's not. But it's largely a matter of workflow.

If you look closely, you'll see that Apple would only need to tweak Aperture's under the hood capabilities to begin to rival Photoshop.

This is not to say that the work required is trivial. But Apple clearly served notice on Adobe that if they abandoned the platform, Apple would have a competitor in beta within weeks, not months.
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post #67 of 69
Spot on!, this is good, now if only Apple would endorse Cappuccino as their Cocoa for the Web, SC is obviously now Cocoa for the web yet they endorse it cause MobileMe is build on top of it but learning SC is a real big pain in the butt.

SC - SproutCore - Made from people who are currently working for Apple (MobileMe)
Cappuccino - Made from people who used to be working at Apple.

Can't wait to see how Adobe CS5 - Cocoa will look like on the Mac , lets hope it looks good, faster and is smaller.

Quote:
If Apple buys Adobe, it'll make MS look even more boring and outdated. But best of all, Adobe is very profitable and they sit on many patents and technologies.

Yup, I agree, Apple should buy Adobe, that would be nice, considering many graphics related people uses Mac platform. This would give even more advantage to Apple cause now Adobe and Apple can work more closer to make the CS suite better. I tried pixelmator, I do like its Cocoa stuffs but I don't like how it works and the learning curve.

That's the problem, Adobe has become such a status in the industry that its hard for a company to compete with Adobe products such as Photoshop and not to infringe their patents or developing a user interface that will make if feel like home (Photoshop) for new users.
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post #68 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Of course it's not. But it's largely a matter of workflow.

If you look closely, you'll see that Apple would only need to tweak Aperture's under the hood capabilities to begin to rival Photoshop.

This is not to say that the work required is trivial. But Apple clearly served notice on Adobe that if they abandoned the platform, Apple would have a competitor in beta within weeks, not months.

Bingo Frank777. Aperture is something that Apple will continue to develop because it in fact delivers likely %70 of what Photoshop users need. Photoshop as an image creation program is relatively unparalled but few tap the depth of the program and basically use it like an overgrown photo editor.



Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelhot View Post

That's the problem, Adobe has become such a status in the industry that its hard for a company to compete with Adobe products such as Photoshop and not to infringe their patents or developing a user interface that will make if feel like home (Photoshop) for new users.

Screw making current Photoshop users feel at home. If there's a better UI paradigm for working with images Apple should develop it. I never really thought Photoshop was all that intuitive of a UI. Everything becomes "intuitive" once you get over the learning curve.

I doubt that Apple makes a competitor though or buys Adobe. Microsoft and Adobe have worked with Apple over some large transitions and I doubt Apple would stab'em in the back. Though it would be fun to see what Apple could do with a beefy PS killer.

Though the promise of Cocoa is in fact to enable rapid development and Pixelmator has the momentum needed to leverage it moreso than Adobe. We'll see how things turn out.
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post #69 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by cozagada View Post

Hi, I feel compelled to write my first post ever on AI :

Do not touch my beloved bubbly scroll bars !

You can bubble my scroll bar any day of the week rawr!
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