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Apple's unibody MacBook: the review - Page 3

post #81 of 121
11/2/08 at 10:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by abernathy View Post

The other day I was at lunch with 2 friends. All 3 of us had planned to buy the new MacBook. We had all changed our mind because of the lack of FireWire. None of us want a larger MacBook Pro. I don't think the 3 of us are quite as unusual as Apple thinks, and we're all sticking with our old MacBooks for the foreseeable future. I hope Apple realizes they have made a mistake.

I had a similar experience with a friend of mine (also a musician) this week. I told him about the new MacBooks, and when I got to the part about it lacking Firewire he was absolutely dumbfounded and pissed off. Neither of us will be buying one of these things any time soon. Apple has let me down in a big way this time around. I thought they were supposed to make products for creative individuals... Well, musicians need Firewire, OK? And, we're not millionaires. And, we like small portable rigs. Apple does not have a system for me at this point.
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post #82 of 121
11/2/08 at 10:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreyMac View Post

The screen is a deal breaker for me......I cant be bothered with such poor viewing angles and contrast / black levels. Its really a shame.

Did you take that picture yourself? Sorry, but the Macbooks screens are nowhere near that bad in real world use.
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post #83 of 121
11/2/08 at 10:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by graxspoo View Post

I had a similar experience with a friend of mine (also a musician) this week. I told him about the new MacBooks, and when I got to the part about it lacking Firewire he was absolutely dumbfounded and pissed off. Neither of us will be buying one of these things any time soon. Apple has let me down in a big way this time around. I thought they were supposed to make products for creative individuals... Well, musicians need Firewire, OK? And, we're not millionaires. And, we like small portable rigs. Apple does not have a system for me at this point.

Musician here too. Agreeing all the way! We don;t need better graphics, or bigger better screens. Just a small portable MAC (cause I'm not a PC) WITH FIREWIRE (cause, you know, USB SICKS DUCK)

Considering what we could do with lesser desktops of the past. Processor speed is also not an issue and would not require the upgrade to a "Pro". Thus Apple is TAXING. Because they know stupid people will fall for it. OF course Apple used to be about SMART people, self educating people. NOW, just former "I'm a PC" people, who couldn't give a crap about their computer and just don't want any more viruses.
[center] "Hey look, it's in the center. I am SO cool!"[/center]
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[center] "Hey look, it's in the center. I am SO cool!"[/center]
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post #84 of 121
11/2/08 at 11:14pm
"For the hard drive, Apple has only budged slightly. Its stock disks are exactly the same as before: the $1,299 model carries a 160GB drive, while the top-end model carries 250GB. Most of the change now comes from expansion options that include 250GB and 320GB drives spinning at 5400 RPM or 7200 RPM as well as a new 128GB solid-state drive (SSD) choice. We see the 7200 RPM hard drives as the best expansion options for anyone not satisfied with the stock hard drives, since hard drive transfer speeds can matter as much as RAM for perceived system speed. The SSD makes less sense here than on the MacBook Air or Pro, though, as few will need the extra speed in a mid-range notebook at the expense of a large amount of hard drive space."

This is the 2nd place I have noticed a mention as to a 7200RPM drive option for the MacBook. However I only see this option listed for the MacBookPro, not the MacBook in which the above quote was written about.
Can anyone confirm this?
al
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post #85 of 121
11/3/08 at 1:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

Looking at Bare Feats' storage interface shootout, Firewire 400 compared to the new MacBook Pro's (and presumably, the new MacBooks) USB 2.0, it's pretty clear there's essentially no noticeable difference in terms of speed.



http://www.barefeats.com/mbpp10.html

Nope. Transfer large files, audio or video in real time and you will see that USB 2 does NOT deliver. Even Firewire 400 is much, much, much better than USB 2. And do not forget the Target Disk Mode for repairs and troubleshooting. No Firewire, no purchase!
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post #86 of 121
11/3/08 at 1:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ros3ntan View Post

Dont forget that intel is already testing their USB 3.0

Do not expect USB 3 until 2010. Instead, Firewire 3200, which is FOUR times faster than Firewire 800 is already available NOW. Transfer large files, audio or video in real time and you will see that USB 2 does NOT deliver. Even Firewire 400 is much, much, much better than USB 2. And do not forget the Target Disk Mode for repairs and troubleshooting. No Firewire, no purchase!
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post #87 of 121
11/3/08 at 1:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

What is the point of that if only to further the decision to drop FW400 from the MB. The FW pendrive is $100 for a 1GB drive.

As for moving large amounts of data 802.11n and 1000BASE-T are great, fast solutions that allow for significantly decentralized setup. FW400 has its benefits, but being better than other methods in every way it is not.

YOU DO NOT GET IT. I will only say one thing: Firewire is needed to repair and troubleshoot Macs via Target Disk Mode. THIS IS A REQUIREMENT FOR ANY MAC. No Firewire, no purchase!
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post #88 of 121
11/3/08 at 2:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by abernathy View Post

My god I'm tired of people who obviously don't need FireWire making statements like this.

YOU DO NOT GET IT. I will only say one thing: Firewire is needed to repair and troubleshoot Macs via Target Disk Mode. THIS IS A REQUIREMENT FOR ANY MAC. No Firewire, no purchase!
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post #89 of 121
11/3/08 at 4:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zunx View Post

Nope. Transfer large files, audio or video in real time and you will see that USB 2 does NOT deliver. Even Firewire 400 is much, much, much better than USB 2. And do not forget the Target Disk Mode for repairs and troubleshooting. No Firewire, no purchase!

Agreed.

As I said in another thread, anyone wanting further info on FW compared to other techs should check out this whitepaper by the 1394 trade association

yes it'll be biased based on it's source... find me one that isn't \

but it's no more biased than some posts here who keep insisting either
- FW is dead
- or that it can be easily replaced with existing technologies...

for those who think that the USB performance of the MBPs is up to that of firewire (note how the MB hasn't been tested - it'll certainly be slower because the CPU is slower)
and keep posting the Barefeets test results please have a look at 'compared to USB paragraph'

ditto for the ESata section
oh and ditto for the Ethernet section
oh and ditto for the USB3 section (noting the increased silicon cost of USB3 and the potential backwards compatibility probs)

remember... pure speed has little to do with performance
and no one is going to argue over single direction file transfer speed
as if that's the most critical for any of us...
if that's all you need, then feel free to go and buy a MB with only USB2

the MB will be pretty for a year (or less) until the resale value plummets
when Apple release an update nicely fitted out with the latest intelligent ports
for rapid data transfer and connection to real peripherals (and by real peripherals i don't mean a mouse, a 1GB flash key or a keyboard)
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post #90 of 121
11/3/08 at 5:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamtam View Post

They are replaced but that does not mean that one may not need to access those tapes again. I have a ton of 'old' videos on such MiniDV tapes and still shoot on MiniDV. I have many that I have not had the time to capture to the computer, edit etc but they are still on tape. I will need to have firewire for a few years to come even if I buy a HDD or NAND based camcorder in the near future. For he same reason, I will need to keep my old MiniDV camcorder as well.

Then you keep your current computer, transfer the tapes now, buy a new machine that has FW. You can't expect a company to hold onto to legacy, dying port interfaces just because a very small percentage of people may want access to a certain type of recordable media in the future. I know people with floppy discs that they just can't throw out, for whatever reason, despite having had no floppy drives in their machines for years.
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post #91 of 121
11/3/08 at 5:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zunx View Post

YOU DO NOT GET IT. I will only say one thing: Firewire is needed to repair and troubleshoot Macs via Target Disk Mode. THIS IS A REQUIREMENT FOR ANY MAC. No Firewire, no purchase!

But Target Disk Mode is not the only way to troubleshoot and repair a Mac HDD. There are plenty of other Macs to purchase if you need FW400.

If you do Mac repairs, then their a single screw between you and the MB HDD, which will get you into TDM as soon as you pop it into a external drive. If you perform Mac break/fix you should be happy that the MBPs now have a very easy to access HDD.

I've used Target Disk Mode ONCE in long Mac using life. If I wanted to now I couldn't as none of my FW cables have a FW400 male connector on both ends. When you have almost all of your market base unaware of FW and Target Disk Mode, much less having ever used them, the decision to remove FW400 instead of removing the 2nd USB port is not a hard decision. It's the weakest link. Goodbye!
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post #92 of 121
11/3/08 at 5:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigalmac View Post

This is the 2nd place I have noticed a mention as to a 7200RPM drive option for the MacBook. However I only see this option listed for the MacBookPro, not the MacBook in which the above quote was written about.
Can anyone confirm this?

Sorry, 5400RPM only, in the MB. However, HDDs are cheap enough that you can buy an after market one on the cheap, though I'm going for a Hitatchi 500GB 5400RPM drive for $120 for my MB. I prefer higher capacity than faster speed as it uses less juice and the read/writes tend to be faster than higher RPM drives holding the same amount of data.
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post #93 of 121
11/3/08 at 6:04am
great review! i want to buy one now! i like appleinsider's style, compared to other over-blown rumor sites like macrumors. go APPLEINSIDER!!!!
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post #94 of 121
11/3/08 at 6:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by macapptraining View Post

i like appleinsider's style, compared to other over-blown rumor sites like macrumors. go APPLEINSIDER!!!!

MacRumors has its pros, but I find that the average forum poster here is much more informed and mature than on other such sites.
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post #95 of 121
11/3/08 at 7:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zunx View Post

YOU DO NOT GET IT. I will only say one thing: Firewire is needed to repair and troubleshoot Macs via Target Disk Mode. THIS IS A REQUIREMENT FOR ANY MAC. No Firewire, no purchase!

I will second the essential nature of firewire.

I took my Blackbook for repairs at the Apple Store this last week (faulty optical drive), and the Geniuses ran all their tests by hooking up their Macbook Pros to my comp via firewire. I couldn't help notice this and mentioned it to the guy. I asked him what they were going to do without firewire and he seemed honestly bummed when he answered, "I have no idea, I hear they're working on something, but nobody knows what is up yet."

This is a rather poor exit strategy (make whatever allegorical parallels that you like) for such an essential technology. I could never buy a Macbook without firewire as things stand right now. In the future, there may in perfectly acceptable solutions (fw3200, usb 3, etc.), but right now there is nothing, and that is unacceptable.
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post #96 of 121
11/3/08 at 7:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leppo View Post

I asked him what they were going to do without firewire and he seemed honestly bummed when he answered.

What he'll do is...

1) Flip hatch to remove bottom panel
2) Remove single screw
3) Plug into connector attached to FW cable

I'd much rather have the HDD be removed easier than it was on the MBP than worry about the extra 30 seconds involved in removing the HDD in the new Mac notebooks.
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post #97 of 121
11/3/08 at 7:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluevoid View Post

Did you take that picture yourself? Sorry, but the Macbooks screens are nowhere near that bad in real world use.

Several people have created similar photo comparisons on other sites. It's not a set-up. No, the screens don't look quite like that to the naked eye; rather, in that instance, your eye will adjust to (and discount) the weaknesses of one screen while focusing on it, and then readjust to the peculiarites of the other once you shift your focus to it. But the one which creates the more photographable image is the one with the stronger screen. The other screen relies on your eye being a good deal more capricious than a camera for you to find it acceptable. Visual acuity differs greatly among people, though, which is why some of us do look at the Macbook's screen and see a mess comparable, at least in degree, to what the camera captures. I suppose you could consider yourself "lucky" if that screen really does seem acceptable to you in a $1600 notebook. I see it as worse than what the average sub-$1k pc notebook has.
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post #98 of 121
11/3/08 at 9:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zunx View Post

YOU DO NOT GET IT. I will only say one thing: Firewire is needed to repair and troubleshoot Macs via Target Disk Mode. THIS IS A REQUIREMENT FOR ANY MAC. No Firewire, no purchase!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zunx View Post

YOU DO NOT GET IT. I will only say one thing: Firewire is needed to repair and troubleshoot Macs via Target Disk Mode. THIS IS A REQUIREMENT FOR ANY MAC. No Firewire, no purchase!

You keep repeating this, when it's complete BS.
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post #99 of 121
11/3/08 at 9:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

MacRumors has its pros, but I find that the average forum poster here is much more informed and mature than on other such sites.

Thanks, and on behalf of the group, I hope we passed the audition!
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post #100 of 121
11/3/08 at 9:51am
Great review, I've been wanting to see this for a while.


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post #101 of 121
11/3/08 at 10:37am
@ everyone quoting the graphs I posted from Bare Feats,

I get all your points! My point was that none of your points matter to the average MacBook buyer because otherwise....FIREWIRE 400 WOULD STILL BE ON NEW MACBOOKS! The demand simply was not there. That's why Apple killed iPod syncing and even charging over Firewire and why the original iPhone didn't ship with Firewire support from day one. This is Apple's own interface and it's superior to USB 2.0, do you really believe they'd drop it if they didn't have to?

But of course, Apple hasn't killed it off entirely, just on the consumer MacBook (because those customers overwhelmingly rejected it) and the ultraportable MacBook Air (due to size and power constraints).

@ CoreyMac,

Thanks for the comparison pictures, though I don't know how many people actually watch movies on their tiny 13" laptops. I'd say few. Still, you're helping me justify the purchase of an Air over a MacBook. Damn you!
False comparisons do not a valid argument make.
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post #102 of 121
11/3/08 at 11:04am
First, there is plenty of room in the new unibody frame for a FireWire port on the MaacBook, if the Kensington lock port is moved to the other side, next to the optical drive slot. Where there isn't room is in the interior and in the budget. Apple is constructing machines to meet market price points. The unibody construction is more expensive than the plastic bodies. Something had to go. Given the disassembly photos, adding a FireWire controller chip to the MacBook main board would be difficult.

Also, the power requirements for FireWire would strain the MacBook's power budget. The lower power battery would need to be increased.

Dropping FireWire lets Apple produce a MacBook that fits in their chosen price point -- they aren't making Macs for a hobby.

I use FireWire 400 daily on my MacBook, for TimeMachine. I can understand Apple's decision, but can't see buying one of these machines, either. I haven't had good experiences with USB drives at all.
iMac, MacBook Air, Mac mini
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post #103 of 121
11/3/08 at 11:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by prw View Post

First, there is plenty of room in the new unibody frame for a FireWire port on the MaacBook, if the Kensington lock port is moved to the other side, next to the optical drive slot.

I don't see any room at all. The optical drive go right up to the edge of the removable panel. The Kensington lock was designed to prevent the bottom panel latch from engaging when a lock is in place so it can't move to another location. It has to be next to the latching mechanism.

Quote:
I use FireWire 400 daily on my MacBook, for TimeMachine. I can understand Apple's decision, but can't see buying one of these machines, either. I haven't had good experiences with USB drives at all.

I've had plenty of trouble with FW extrernal drive used for Time Machine. So much so, that I've moved all every machine to USB because I'd get errors that TM couldn't start, or that by having an external drive plugged in during an iMac startup it would freeze prior to the login screen. Switching from FW to USB resolved these issues while using the same external drives.
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post #104 of 121
11/3/08 at 12:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

anyone wanting further info on FW compared to other techs should check out this whitepaper by the 1394 trade association

Great article!

It's a bummer, that as an apple customer and fan you will have to pay almost 1000$ to have a firewire port on a mobile device, and that's it!

Also companies look at those rates and ask why every time..
It really pisses you off when you have no viable alternative for the (price point of a) macbook with firewire.
I've seen TV stations use MB and not MBPs in their shows, for many.. its about money and not always about 'the' apple gadget or status!

It's not that Dell sells OSX on their latitude series
I do think that Apple will license their OS, but only when Win OS7 (and newer) kicks in and stops users from switching to OSX. Until then...
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post #105 of 121
11/3/08 at 12:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zunx View Post

YOU DO NOT GET IT. I will only say one thing: Firewire is needed to repair and troubleshoot Macs via Target Disk Mode. THIS IS A REQUIREMENT FOR ANY MAC. No Firewire, no purchase!

Very easy way: Get a USB external HD, install clean OS on it. Boot from that if your Mac has trouble.

All Intel Macs can boot from USB (actually, even the older PowerMacs can, with a little bit OF typing). Somehow nobody knew about it?
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post #106 of 121
11/3/08 at 12:45pm
I think in the old days, people have all the storage internally, so the target disk mode is necessary.

However, I don't know of anyone who don't have a couple of external drives these days. Simple install the OS on an external drive for troubleshooting... that's what we did before target disk mode became available.

A little bit history - target disk mode was first available on Powerbook 100, to boot PB100 as an external SCSI drive. It was extremely useful to transfer files, since at that time, the other option is to use AppleTalk through the slow serial cable, or floppy, or another external SCSI HD.

Today, there are so many other options - the simplest is Wifi, or wired ethernet, which has been standard on Macs for how many years? Another option is to use a USB key drive (don't Mac users use that?). 4GB USB costs like $30 these days, and an USB key drive is easier to carry in your backpack than a FW cable.

You can easily boot Mac from an external USB HD. Please don't pretend that you don't know that.

The only thing I wish Apple will do is to boot from USB key drive. With 8GB key drives available and getting cheaper, that would be the easiest way to keep a bootable volume.
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post #107 of 121
11/3/08 at 1:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnqh View Post

You can easily boot Mac from an external USB HD. Please don't pretend that you don't know that.

The only thing I wish Apple will do is to boot from USB key drive. With 8GB key drives available and getting cheaper, that would be the easiest way to keep a bootable volume.

errr - i'm going to pretend...
have you ever tried booting from a USB drive?
yes it's theoretically possible but sketchy at best
most times i tried it hasn't worked...
(talking about my experience with a blackbook core duo...)

each time i tried it would just sit there with the grey entry screen and that little wheel turning...
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post #108 of 121
11/3/08 at 2:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

errr - i'm going to pretend...
have you ever tried booting from a USB drive?
yes it's theoretically possible but sketchy at best
most times i tried it hasn't worked...
(talking about my experience with a blackbook core duo...)

each time i tried it would just sit there with the grey entry screen and that little wheel turning...

I have tried it several times and never, ever, had a single problem...with 3 different Macs (iMac late 2007, Mac mini Core Duo, Macbook first gen)
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post #109 of 121
11/4/08 at 4:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluevoid View Post

Did you take that picture yourself? Sorry, but the Macbooks screens are nowhere near that bad in real world use.

I agree with this. The point is that new 13" MacBooks have better notably screens than the previous plastic version. I really cannot discern much difference between the Air's screen and the new MacBook's.

Is this really an issue? Or could just be an early production anomaly?

I am in awe at these machines, the glass is definitely half-full for me. The new MacBooks definitely take the game forward. Buy one of these things and it is going to last years.

To me the most significant thing about the MacBook is that what it offers has real commercial appeal for IT departments. Big companies are going to buy MacBooks for their employees. (And most corporate users really don't give a s**t about Firewire.)
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post #110 of 121
11/4/08 at 7:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreyMac


I'm officially shocked

There's no way I'm getting a new Apple laptop now, no way. This is unacceptable. Terrible. This has actually pissed me off.

DaHarder just got banned. Let's crack open the champagne.

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post #111 of 121
11/4/08 at 7:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by crocodile View Post

The point is that new 13" MacBooks have better notably screens than the previous plastic version.

The point might also be that they have notably worse screens than countless sub-$1k PC notebooks.

Some of us have this funny issue about not wanting to pay $1,600 for a computer that screams "rip-off" everytime we look at it.
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post #112 of 121
11/4/08 at 7:58am
I just wrote Steve Jobs to complain about this product. This screen, in my view, is un-shippable.

DaHarder just got banned. Let's crack open the champagne.

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post #113 of 121
11/4/08 at 10:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonathanC View Post

The point might also be that they have notably worse screens than countless sub-$1k PC notebooks.

Some of us have this funny issue about not wanting to pay $1,600 for a computer that screams "rip-off" everytime we look at it.

So don't pay for it. I'm not, and I'm getting an air.
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post #114 of 121
11/4/08 at 1:23pm
My 1st gen MacBook screen isn't as bad as that pic seems to show. I would keep an open mind until you get a chance to look at the screen yourself. A photo taken at a weird angle can make all the difference in the world.

I've just noticed the new MacBooks don't come with a remote control as standard...
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post #115 of 121
11/4/08 at 1:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreyMac View Post

The screen is a deal breaker for me......I cant be bothered with such poor viewing angles and contrast / black levels. Its really a shame.

I am shocked by your pictures. I don't know if it's really as bad as the photos show but my 1st gen MacBook is NO WAY as bad as that MacBook screen in terms of black levels. I can watch dark movies on my MacBook no problem.
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post #116 of 121
11/4/08 at 1:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jowie74 View Post

I've just noticed the new MacBooks don't come with a remote control as standard...

They've not been including one for a couple updates now. Which I'm happy about. Since I buy a new machine often, I have too many remotes sitting around and I'm tired of paying for something I am not using.
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post #117 of 121
11/4/08 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KamiNoYadoru View Post

So don't pay for it. I'm not, and I'm getting an air.

Paying even more for even less. Good strategy.
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post #118 of 121
11/6/08 at 10:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonathanC View Post

Paying even more for even less. Good strategy.

Best less ever.
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post #119 of 121
3/7/09 at 9:00pm
I'm getting a unibody macbook as soon as snow leopard releases!

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post #120 of 121
3/7/09 at 9:53pm
I just checked out the MacBook Alu. Wolverine trailer. It isn't as bad as in the photo posted, that's very extreme. But there is a slight blue-ish cast coming from the bottom of the screen that is washing out the black level somewhat.

I think this could be a quality control thing.

One more thing, why of late is all our forum-ing about complaining? It seems to be more on the hardware side. Software-wise and iPhone-wise things seem quite pleasing.

This Mac hardware thing though...

I don't know. I'm officially very confused.
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