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When will Apple innovate again?

post #1 of 37
Thread Starter 
This is Future Hardware, so I don't want discuss OSX or iApp here. First, let's define "innovation."

Innovation - " The act of introducing something new."

...to which I'll add: to the computer industry.

With that, I'll apply a 5-star rating to Apple's innovativeness (<- an actual word).

- As an exercise, let's take the current iMac. Is this innovate? If you use AtAT's description of it (lump-stick-rectangle), you can argue that it's new. (How many Stick computers have you seen?) But come on, it's an all-in-one design. Been there, done that. ( * / * * * * * )

- How about the iPod? It may be a "breakthrough" product, but a hardware-based MP3 player has been done. It gets points for the Firewire connection. That hasn't been done. ( * * / * * * * * )

- Built-in 802.11b antenna ( * * * * * / * * * * * )
- 22" Cinema display ( * * * * / * * * * * )
- Firewire ( * * * * * / * * * * * )
- Newton ( * * * * / * * * * * ) [for Fran]

We can argue about the Cinema display, as LCDs have been done around, but that's a whopper of a widescreen in the computing world. Any way, you get the idea.

However, when I look back, there haven't been as many innovations as I thought. Maybe someone can remind me of a few. But for now, the question is: WHAT'S NeXT?

- Bluetooth-enabled peripherals?
- Wireless video connection?
- Zero-button mouse?
- What the heck is Gigawire anyway?
- Sexbots? (I have to stop reading Crazy Apple Rumors)

[Note: Using the G5 is not innovate -- other computers also have microprocessors, if you can believe it. A Quad G5 in a consumer computer is, though. Get it?]
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post #2 of 37
Would you say the Cube is 'innovative'?

Fitting the computer into such a small enclosure must get some points, right?

Any way, if you haven't seen the new iMac, you really need to take the time and get to your local Apple Retail Store if you can. These machines are awesome to look at and awesome to use.

They're fast, have beautiful displays, they're fast, and are just unbelievable to use (so fast!). Sure, they may not fit your definition of 'innovative', but they sure will sell a ton of them.

Did I mention these machines were fast? If not, they are fast.

Edit: BTW, thanks for the Newton 'plug'. But make it 5 stars. The handwriting recognition itself should get 5 stars. :cool:

[ 01-11-2002: Message edited by: Fran441 ]</p>
post #3 of 37
In a few weeks when the G5 comes out
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post #4 of 37
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by KidRed:
<strong>In a few weeks when the G5 comes out </strong><hr></blockquote>

That's innovative because...?

We know Apple can make cool designs. I love my girlfriend's TiBook, for example: **** for the widescreen in a laptop, and the first all-titanium housing.

Once more, Innovative = New, as in not introduced before, and not "oh, is that a new tie?"

Fran: forgot about the handwriting technology. You're right.

[edit: punctuations, punctuations]

[ 01-11-2002: Message edited by: GardenOfEarthlyDelights ]</p>
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post #5 of 37
well, i read a while back that apple is interested in LEP...light emitting plastics as a potential replacement for LED screens. LEP is cheap, bright and best of all...flexible. imagine a PDA with a large screen that can unroll or expand. that would be revolutionary.

what about gigawire. who knows what it is. osopinion.com speculated it's a wireless technology...what about wireless firewire? drives and peripherals that don't need any cabling...that can merely be placed close to your mac to operate. that would be revolutionary too...
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post #6 of 37
Innovation is overhyped. Apple learned from the failure of the Newton and other projects that being on the cutting edge can hurt. Look to see Apple pick and choose wisely and not risk too much. They are playing to their strongsuits which is improving on items that the PC work takes for granted yet the old Apple that tried to push tech is no more. Thank God because that almost killed them.
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post #7 of 37
[quote]Originally posted by GardenOfEarthlyDelights:
<strong>

That's innovative because...?

We know Apple can make cool designs. I love my girlfriend's TiBook, for example: **** for the widescreen in a laptop, and the first all-titanium housing.

Once more, Innovative = New, as in not introduced before, and not "oh, is that a new tie?"

Fran: forgot about the handwriting technology. You're right.

[edit: punctuations, punctuations]

[ 01-11-2002: Message edited by: GardenOfEarthlyDelights ]</strong><hr></blockquote>


Ok, since you need it spelled out


Gigawire is something new. 64-bit chip for consumers is new. I'm sure the G5 case will be innovative. Airport 2 whatever it may be, etc.

The G5 itself I think will embody 'innovative' as as mush of their products do.
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post #8 of 37
Creativity: More than something that can define our place in the world and sometimes even outlive us,its also how we advance as individuals and how we make things better-even in a small way-for the people around us and for generations yet to come. To bring something new into this world is the single most important human endeavor.

\tEach of us is creative. Whether were writing a memo or composing a symphony, taking thoughts distilling them into something meaningful is a uniquely human process. And the tool we use to transform an idea into action can be as much a source of inspiration as a means to an end.

\tAnd the most flexible and powerful tool yet created for translating dreams into reality is, in itself, a monument to human creativity.

The Macintosh.

\tWhat Apples products have in common has been largely unnoticed by you, the

\tWhen I first heard Steve Jobs describe the Mac as a digital hub for a multi media lifestyle, I was impressed. But I would go a step further and say that the Mac is a creativity hub too. It is one thing to fill our lives with cool gadgets such as Palm devices, MP3 and DVD players. It is another thing entirely to allow us to fill those devices with music worth listening to and movies worth watching.


\t In this box is everything you need to mix music, edit movies, paint pictures, craft web sites, write novels or just be creative. It is your inspiration toolbox. And who doesn't want to be more inspired? While Apple and Steve Jobs wrap up computers in the industries most compelling packages, it has always been whats inside the box that really counts even if the computers are just as beautiful on the outside.


Theabove is what innovation is and that is what apple has always done with its products so we can use them to innovate for ourselves. Apple brings all of their unique products together to form an overall innovative computing environment.
post #9 of 37
[quote]Originally posted by GardenOfEarthlyDelights:
[QB]
- Zero-button mouse?
/QB]<hr></blockquote>

the current pro mouse is technically zero button, as the whole unit Rocks forward to complete a click, as opposed to using your fingers to push a button,I LOVe the pro mouse, but I don't use mine cause I need 3 buttons at least
apple should redesign the pro mouse slightly, make it capable of rocking forward/backward and left and right, that way you have left click/right click and the forward and back COULD be a scroll wheel type deal(or just customizable)
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post #10 of 37
Apple has shifted their innovative approach to more fruitful territory. They learned from the Newton: The iPod wasn't the first, but it was released when Apple could make it the best, before the other companies had refined their designs into something truly appealing. Generally, it's a good idea to let the pioneers take the arrows.

Apple has instead concentrated on two things:

Taking what was appealing in theory but either poorly implemented or cost-prohibitive (or both) and releasing a well-designed version at an approachable price. This is actually a return to the Mac's roots. One recent innovation - which admittedly is software-based, but relevant to hardware - is the steady reduction of the dependency on hardware to extend the capabilities of the machine. By the time March rolls around, a bottom of the line (LCD) iMac will be able to do things that not even the top of the line PowerMac could do this time last year: n-channel audio; real-time effects; etc. This is working toward a major design innovation that Steve has sought for years, namely the elimination of the need to open the box and handle circuit boards.

Engineering, both mechanical and material. In materials engineering, Apple has been innovating like mad. Nobody had ever tried to do anything like the iMac's colored shell with plastic before. The tolerances were previously unheard of. The Cube's silvery enclosure was actually believed to be impossible (instead, it was only very difficult...). The patterned iMacs used plastic in a way that had never been done before. For mechanical engineering: The Cube. The new iMac - both the compact base and the screen pivot. Apple collaborated with Pioneer on the SuperDrive, and with Lucent on AirPort. Apparently, they also work with their LCD suppliers to get higher-than-normal quality displays.

Apple's been very busy.

If the rumors are true, and Apple has taken a lead in engineering the G5 (they had a hand in the G4 too), that will count for Apple innovation as well. Especially if it ships with multiple cores.
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post #11 of 37
your definition and your application of it are both poorly done. #1, "the act of introducing something new to the computer industry" was done i guess 3 basic times at the keynote. iphoto, the new imac and the 14" ibook. all weren't in the industry before. they introduced them and they were new. so by your definition all of these should get a 5 out of 5.

but i pretty much know what you mean. and i don't think you're being consistent. the cinema display. it's a bigger version of the already present lcd display. so what. is "bigger" really innovative?

the new imac. you give it a one? i think you're not being objective here. the all in one has been done at least 5 times by apple, as long ago as 1984. and i'll bet you take the old imac to be revolutionary. it came with color, but so too did the 20th anniv and the TV macs. so, wherein lies what i believe to be the innovation in this product? well, it's the first all in one computer that utilizes an lcd display in an elegant way. and further incoroporates high power and doesn't sacrifice any of it for the sake of a simple (and more uninteresting) design.

i get the impression you're not impressed with anything made by apple that isn't truly revolutionary. (which is a better word for what you seem to be searching for) and, well, get ready for some disappointments in your future.

but on the speculation.
gigawire i have to imagine is just firewire gen. 2. thinking about it, firewire is 400 mbps, the latest gen was supposed to be 800. and that was a while ago. i'll be by now they have it up to gigabiit range

wireless video? i'd be mighty impressed if they could do that. i envision the need of a satelitte dish for that to work. and i'd buy whatever they came out with!!

oh wait, the G5 is not innovative? please.
post #12 of 37
[quote]Originally posted by pdino:
<strong>
oh wait, the G5 is not innovative? please.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Huh?

The G5 (chip) is made by Motorola isnt it? I think the original poster was asking when APPLE would innovate again...not Motorola/IBM.

Thats kind of like saying Dell is innovating because the released a new machine with the P4 2.2Ghz or whatever in it.

-Moazam
post #13 of 37
[quote]Originally posted by Amorph:
<strong>
If the rumors are true, and Apple has taken a lead in engineering the G5 (they had a hand in the G4 too), that will count for Apple innovation as well. Especially if it ships with multiple cores.</strong><hr></blockquote>

As we have found out lately, the rumors are almost never true.

-Moazam
post #14 of 37
[quote]Originally posted by moazam:
<strong>

Huh?

The G5 (chip) is made by Motorola isnt it? I think the original poster was asking when APPLE would innovate again...not Motorola/IBM.

Thats kind of like saying Dell is innovating because the released a new machine with the P4 2.2Ghz or whatever in it.

-Moazam</strong><hr></blockquote>

Moto doesn't put the peices together inside the towers. they only make the chip. Dell just assembles, very different. Apple has gigawire, may bring 64 bit chips and OS to the desktop and I'm sure the design may be innovative. The G5 argument is meerly to say that the next time Apple innovates will most likely be with the G5's release.
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post #15 of 37
[quote]Originally posted by KidRed:
<strong>

Moto doesn't put the peices together inside the towers. they only make the chip. Dell just assembles, very different. Apple has gigawire, may bring 64 bit chips and OS to the desktop and I'm sure the design may be innovative. The G5 argument is meerly to say that the next time Apple innovates will most likely be with the G5's release.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You can buy a 64bit DESKTOP machine right now for $995. How is this any innovation? Its not.

-Moazam
post #16 of 37
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by pdino:
<strong>your definition and your application of it are both poorly done. #1, "the act of introducing something new to the computer industry" was done i guess 3 basic times at the keynote. iphoto, the new imac and the 14" ibook. all weren't in the industry before. they introduced them and they were new. so by your definition all of these should get a 5 out of 5.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The definition of innovation comes from the dictionary. I added "to the computer industry," because Apple doesn't make cars, planes, etc.

iPhoto is software. This is a hardware topic.
A 14" iBook is innovative? As I said before, a "new tie" isn't innovative, as ties have existed before. It's just new to you, as a used car that you bought. I stick by my definitions.

[quote]Originally posted by pdino:
<strong>but i pretty much know what you mean. and i don't think you're being consistent. the cinema display. it's a bigger version of the already present lcd display. so what. is "bigger" really innovative?</strong><hr></blockquote>

As I stated, you can argue this one. Bigger &lt;&gt; Innovative, but I think SGI's 21" screen wasn't a wide-screen format. But the Cinema had ADC, which was new (good or bad).

[quote]Originally posted by pdino:
<strong>the new imac. you give it a one? i think you're not being objective here. the all in one has been done at least 5 times by apple, as long ago as 1984. and i'll bet you take the old imac to be revolutionary. it came with color, but so too did the 20th anniv and the TV macs. so, wherein lies what i believe to be the innovation in this product? well, it's the first all in one computer that utilizes an lcd display in an elegant way. and further incoroporates high power and doesn't sacrifice any of it for the sake of a simple (and more uninteresting) design.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Cool &lt;&gt; Innovative. What's innovative about it? A G4? A Super Drive? An all-in-one LCD screen? Been there, done that.

[quote]Originally posted by pdino:
<strong>I get the impression you're not impressed with anything made by apple that isn't truly revolutionary. (which is a better word for what you seem to be searching for) and, well, get ready for some disappointments in your future.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Revolutionary may not necessarily be the same as innovative. You can make the argument that the original iMac was revolutionary, and I would tend to agree. But remember, the original Mac was an all-in-one design.

Disappointed? I don't think so, as I have low expectations from Apple. I was actually happy to hear about the 14" iBook. And I love the TiBook, as I've also stated.

[quote]Originally posted by pdino:
<strong>but on the speculation.
gigawire i have to imagine is just firewire gen. 2. thinking about it, firewire is 400 mbps, the latest gen was supposed to be 800. and that was a while ago. i'll be by now they have it up to gigabiit range</strong><hr></blockquote>

Is speeding up Firewire innnovative? I'm struggling on this one.

[quote]Originally posted by pdino:
<strong>wireless video? i'd be mighty impressed if they could do that. i envision the need of a satelitte dish for that to work. and i'd buy whatever they came out with!! </strong><hr></blockquote>

I'd be impressed, too.

[quote]Originally posted by pdino:
<strong>oh wait, the G5 is not innovative? please.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If it incorporates Hypertransport, RapidIO or sexbots, it would be innovative.

If it's just faster, or more Altivec units, then someone will have to explain to me why that's innovative to the computer industry.

I'm not a pessimist. I just want to see cool things that make me go, "oooh." And I want this to come from Apple.
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post #17 of 37
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Amorph:
<strong>Apple has shifted their innovative approach to more fruitful territory. They learned from the Newton: The iPod wasn't the first, but it was released when Apple could make it the best, before the other companies had refined their designs into something truly appealing. Generally, it's a good idea to let the pioneers take the arrows.

Apple has instead concentrated on two things:

Taking what was appealing in theory but either poorly implemented or cost-prohibitive (or both) and releasing a well-designed version at an approachable price. This is actually a return to the Mac's roots. One recent innovation - which admittedly is software-based, but relevant to hardware - is the steady reduction of the dependency on hardware to extend the capabilities of the machine. By the time March rolls around, a bottom of the line (LCD) iMac will be able to do things that not even the top of the line PowerMac could do this time last year: n-channel audio; real-time effects; etc. This is working toward a major design innovation that Steve has sought for years, namely the elimination of the need to open the box and handle circuit boards.

Engineering, both mechanical and material. In materials engineering, Apple has been innovating like mad. Nobody had ever tried to do anything like the iMac's colored shell with plastic before. The tolerances were previously unheard of. The Cube's silvery enclosure was actually believed to be impossible (instead, it was only very difficult...). The patterned iMacs used plastic in a way that had never been done before. For mechanical engineering: The Cube. The new iMac - both the compact base and the screen pivot. Apple collaborated with Pioneer on the SuperDrive, and with Lucent on AirPort. Apparently, they also work with their LCD suppliers to get higher-than-normal quality displays.

Apple's been very busy.

If the rumors are true, and Apple has taken a lead in engineering the G5 (they had a hand in the G4 too), that will count for Apple innovation as well. Especially if it ships with multiple cores.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree with your entire post. I guess I just want more. I'm actually pretty happy with Apple's current fare.

But wouldn't dual G4s in a TiBook be cool?
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post #18 of 37
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Wrong Robot:
<strong>

the current pro mouse is technically zero button, as the whole unit Rocks forward to complete a click, as opposed to using your fingers to push a button,I LOVe the pro mouse, but I don't use mine cause I need 3 buttons at least
apple should redesign the pro mouse slightly, make it capable of rocking forward/backward and left and right, that way you have left click/right click and the forward and back COULD be a scroll wheel type deal(or just customizable)</strong><hr></blockquote>



I still like this one.
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post #19 of 37
[quote]Originally posted by moazam:
<strong>

You can buy a 64bit DESKTOP machine right now for $995. How is this any innovation? Its not.

-Moazam</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, maybe innovation as in the first one that is mass marketed with mass marketed apps designed to take advantage of 64 bits instead of a SUN box that is only useful to a select few that even know how to use one. The hard part as always is, how much innovation is innovation.
post #20 of 37
here's something else...innovation is as much perception as it is inspiration. innovation only "works" if everyone around you agrees your way is better. this is something apple has become very good at...taking an idea with "innovative potential" and turning it into technology people will talk about around the water cooler.

for example...apple invented firewire quite a few years ago. it was true innovation...and nobody cared. apple put firewire on their new systems...and very few people cared. apple puts a firewire port on the ipod so a CD only takes 10 seconds to download and suddenly everyone gets it. firewire is innovation! the same will be said of the new imac too. they didn't invent the flat screened computer, but they know how to make that idea sexy and, er, innovative.
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post #21 of 37
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by koffedrnkr:
<strong>here's something else...innovation is as much perception as it is inspiration. innovation only "works" if everyone around you agrees your way is better. this is something apple has become very good at...taking an idea with "innovative potential" and turning it into technology people will talk about around the water cooler.

for example...apple invented firewire quite a few years ago. it was true innovation...and nobody cared. apple put firewire on their new systems...and very few people cared. apple puts a firewire port on the ipod so a CD only takes 10 seconds to download and suddenly everyone gets it. firewire is innovation! the same will be said of the new imac too. they didn't invent the flat screened computer, but they know how to make that idea sexy and, er, innovative.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Innovation is simply something new, not if it works, or is cool, or widely accepted. It may not mean cool, or good or even bad. It is simply new.

What a company does with innovation is independent of the innovation itself (see Iridium).

Here's a stupid innovation: the minivan.

Chrysler introduced this in the dark days of the 1980s. Not only did it become a top seller for them, but others quickly imitated it to capture some of their success. What other advantages did it give Chrysler? How about a higher margin on minivans than their competitors. You can consider the original iMac Apple's minivan.

If Apple gave us their Inkwell technology in their next 'Book update, I'd be happy with that innovation.
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post #22 of 37
[quote]Originally posted by GardenOfEarthlyDelights:
<strong>Innovation is simply something new, not if it works, or is cool, or widely accepted. It may not mean cool, or good or even bad. It is simply new.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I find it odd that you give the new iMac such low marks, then. Yes, it's "just" an all-in-one, in about the same way that the original iBook was "just" a laptop. Apple just reconceptualized the all-in-one.

The design is innovative, which means not that lump-stick-square is interesting in itself, but that it is capable of things that were not practicable before. That's the whole point of industrial design. It's not just about making things look pretty; more importantly, it's about making the design elegantly functional. At this point, Ive's designs are almost pure statements of function.

How many all-in-ones have you seen whose screen is that easily adjustable every which way? Which conceals the computer and showcases the screen so effectively, by a number of tactics ranging from the shape of the base to the quiet fan? These are, broadly, the goals that Apple has been striving for since before the first Mac, but the new machine takes it to a new level.

Then there's the simple fact that the top of the line iMac is capable, out of the box, of things that were difficult or impossible for any personal computer to do a year ago. That ought to count for something.
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post #23 of 37
GOED: While I understand your viewpoint, for the most part, this I just don't get:

You claim that the 22" ACD was, indeed, innovative.

Yet the iPod was not.

Why?

The ACD added... what... widescreen? (Digital interfaces had been around for a couple of years, 21" LCDs were already available.)

The iPod added... FireWire, a new hard drive form factor (1.8") that no one else uses precisely so it was easy to hold in one hand, which let them use a slick minimalist UI.

I fail to see why the ACD was innovative in your book and the iPod wasn't. Explain?

I mean, if we go by your comment for 2/5 for the iPod, and then just change a couple of details...

"It may be a "breakthrough" product, but a &lt;big LCD&gt; has been done. It gets points for the &lt;widescreen ratio&gt;. That hasn't been done. "

I agree with you that cool &lt;&gt; innovative, by any means, but could you explain the discrepancy?
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post #24 of 37
[quote]Originally posted by GardenOfEarthlyDelights:
<strong>

Innovation is simply something new, not if it works, or is cool, or widely accepted. It may not mean cool, or good or even bad. It is simply new.

What a company does with innovation is independent of the innovation itself (see Iridium).

Here's a stupid innovation: the minivan.

Chrysler introduced this in the dark days of the 1980s. Not only did it become a top seller for them, but others quickly imitated it to capture some of their success. What other advantages did it give Chrysler? How about a higher margin on minivans than their competitors. You can consider the original iMac Apple's minivan.

If Apple gave us their Inkwell technology in their next 'Book update, I'd be happy with that innovation.</strong><hr></blockquote>

STUPID INNOVATION?

Have you READ my minivan statements? Specifically, the Dodge Caravan 4-cyl, DOHC model.

What's stupid about it, GoED's opinion?
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post #25 of 37
I would say innovative is less 'exciting' than revolutionary. So...

I thought the original iMac without legacy ports was innovative. I also think putting USB ports on the keyboard was innovative. Adding firewire ultimately to all products was as well.

The ability to NetBoot an iMac without a harddrive is pretty innovative, if not revolutionary. Perhaps it's been done before, but I'd guess that the machines doing it were of a completely different class.

As far as this MacWorld is concerned, I'm not sure Apple released any innovative hardware. The arm of the new iMac is about the only thing I would consider, but moveable monitor/TV stands have been available for a long time. Perhaps the 6 hour battery life on a 14 inch laptop.
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post #26 of 37
G of ED,

imac, the new imac, no beige, El Capitan, ipod, colors, the cube, Firewire, no floppy ( bold move ), no CRT for entire line ( another bold move ). All of this in the last 3 years. Webster's defines Innovation as: a new idea, method, or device. And of course you didn't want to talk about software. You just haven't been paying attention.

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: jimmac ]</p>
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post #27 of 37
Thread Starter 
Geeesh... I'm just trying to be a purveyor in interesting discussion.

First of all, ratings are subjective. Don't like the Oscars? Come up with the Golden Globe. What I rate are based on my opinion, which is subjective. Why is green better than blue? It's not-- it's strictly subjective.

If you don't like my ratings, provide your own, with your reasons. That's fine. Then come up with an Apple innovation (that you may want).

Remember-- the first part of Apple's slogan is...

Think
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post #28 of 37
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[quote]Originally posted by Amorph:
<strong>

I find it odd that you give the new iMac such low marks, then. Yes, it's "just" an all-in-one, in about the same way that the original iBook was "just" a laptop. Apple just reconceptualized the all-in-one.

...

Then there's the simple fact that the top of the line iMac is capable, out of the box, of things that were difficult or impossible for any personal computer to do a year ago. That ought to count for something.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, I see your point. As an engineer, I look inside the box first. For design, it's certainly innovative.

However, just because it's better than a year ago, it would be hard to justify that as innovation. In that case, "innovation" could be applied too broadly, and wouldn't be useful.
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post #29 of 37
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[quote]Originally posted by JRC:
<strong>

STUPID INNOVATION?

Have you READ my minivan statements? Specifically, the Dodge Caravan 4-cyl, DOHC model.

What's stupid about it, GoED's opinion?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Touchy. Okay-- I'll take the stupid back. I don't actually think minivans are stupid, I think the fact that minivans are an innovation is stupid, even if it falls within the definition of "innovation." Like I said, it's an opinion. You have yours.

Personally, I like small, sporty cars. Speed Thrills.

By the way, I'm an automotive safety engineer. You may want to consider another car...
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post #30 of 37
[quote]Originally posted by GardenOfEarthlyDelights:
<strong>

Touchy. Okay-- I'll take the stupid back. I don't actually think minivans are stupid, I think the fact that minivans are an innovation is stupid, even if it falls within the definition of "innovation." Like I said, it's an opinion. You have yours.

Personally, I like small, sporty cars. Speed Thrills.

By the way, I'm an automotive safety engineer. You may want to consider another car...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Again, I must ask, Have you read my OTHER minivan statements?

Is 115 MPH enough SPEED for you? It is for 99.97% of people, I'd say.

Ain't NOTHING slow 'bout my DODGE CARAVAN BASE 4 CYL, THREE BIG HONKIN AUTOMATIC SPEEDS - all for $14,000 brand new, no trade in and you can sleep in it!



Who do you work for as a safety engineer? Where's your degree from?

[ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: JRC ]</p>
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post #31 of 37
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[quote]Originally posted by jimmac:
<strong>G of ED,

imac, the new imac, no beige, El Capitan, ipod, colors, the cube, Firewire, no floppy ( bold move ), no CRT for entire line ( another bold move ). All of this in the last 3 years. Webtser's defines Innovation as: a new idea, method, or device. And of course you didn't want to talk about software. You just haven't been paying attention.

[ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: jimmac ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, whatever. Define why they're innovative. My first Apple ][ didn't come with a floppy. Let's use reason.

Also, this is the Future Hardware forum, not Past Hardware, and not Software. What was the topic again...?
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post #32 of 37
[quote]Originally posted by koffedrnkr:
<strong>here's something else...innovation is as much perception as it is inspiration. innovation only "works" if everyone around you agrees your way is better. this is something apple has become very good at...taking an idea with "innovative potential" and turning it into technology people will talk about around the water cooler.

for example...apple invented firewire quite a few years ago. it was true innovation...and nobody cared. apple put firewire on their new systems...and very few people cared. apple puts a firewire port on the ipod so a CD only takes 10 seconds to download and suddenly everyone gets it. firewire is innovation! the same will be said of the new imac too. they didn't invent the flat screened computer, but they know how to make that idea sexy and, er, innovative.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Exactly,
post #33 of 37
Compaq can pound a desktop pc into a pizza box and all the pc idiots will rush over to hail it an innovation and "the next wave of computing" without contest, while people here doubt if Apple has ever innovated. Something seems awfully wrong to me <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
post #34 of 37
[quote]Originally posted by GardenOfEarthlyDelights:
<strong>

Yeah, I see your point. As an engineer, I look inside the box first. For design, it's certainly innovative.

However, just because it's better than a year ago, it would be hard to justify that as innovation. In that case, "innovation" could be applied too broadly, and wouldn't be useful.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's not just better.

It does things that nothing in Apple's pro line could do a year ago. It brings power that was the exclusive province of Apple's professional line three months ago down to a $1299 consumer machine (although admittedly, you have to run pro apps to get some of it).

To say that this is not innovative is to say that the original Mac was not innovative. All-in-ones had been on the market for years. The 68K was not innovative, it was merely elegant, and it wasn't Apple's design anyway. Parts of the system in ROM? Done many times before. The mouse had existed for almost 20 years; the GUI is as old, and object-oriented programming is older still. 9" black and white monitors? Nothing new there either. Sony had been offering their odd "better floppy" for some time - with very little success - before the Mac shipped with it standard.

But I don't think anyone would hesitate to claim that the original Mac was innovative. Would you? Because from a hardware point of view the new iMac is innovative in the same way. It's not that the innards are so different, it's that the way the user reacts to and interacts with the innards is different.

Never underestimate the significance of design.
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post #35 of 37
G of ED,
The G4 tower I bought in 2000 was the first Mac out of 4 ( and computer ) I've owned that didn't have a floppy drive. Don't blame me for being late to the party. As for the rest Amorph has already said what I would have. Design comes under the heading of new idea ( as per Webster's definition ). The El Capitan case is innovative because of ease of use.
The original imac didn't look like anything else on the market ( a sea of beige ) a new idea again. The new imac is innovative for the reasons Amorph has already stated. Firewire.... well it's faster. I think I've made my point. These all fall under the definition of innovative as set by Websters ( which I accept above any party on this board ). Just because you personally don't find them interesting doesn't make it any different. If you don't believe me, look it up for yourself.

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: jimmac ]</p>
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post #36 of 37
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by jimmac:
<strong>G of ED,
The G4 tower I bought in 2000 was the first Mac out of 4 ( and computer ) I've owned that didn't have a floppy drive. Don't blame me for being late to the party. As for the rest Amorph has already said what I would have. Design comes under the heading of new idea ( as per Webster's definition ). The El Capitan case is innovative because of ease of use.
The original imac didn't look like anything else on the market ( a sea of beige ) a new idea again. The new imac is innovative for the reasons Amorph has already stated. Firewire.... well it's faster. I think I've made my point. These all fall under the definition of innovative as set by Websters ( which I accept above any party on this board ). Just because you personally don't find them interesting doesn't make it any different. If you don't believe me, look it up for yourself.

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: jimmac ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agreed with Amorph regarding design. Relax.

I took my definition from American Heritage. The British/ Australian/ Canadian/ New Zealand/ Every-other-English-speaking-user may take exception to it, but it's then only dictionary I have.

El Capitan is cool. I have one. Ease of opening the case? The top of the old Apple ][ just popped out.

Different does not necessarily mean Innovative. Or do you believe Dell is also being innovative?

New means innovative. I'm using the dictionary's definition. But like I said before, if you get a new tie for Christmas, is that an innovative tie?

If it blinks, plays "Jingle Bells," and puts your kids to bed, that could be innovative. But I wouldn't want it.

Cool does not necessarily mean innovative, either.

[Not directed to anyone in general.]

Besides, this is Future Hardware. Doesn't anybody want to talk about what innovation Apple should introduce anymore? Anti-gravity G5 Towers to ease dusting?

What about a wireless audio/video rack component that uses 802.11x to stream content to your stereo or tv from the computer?

Don't worry about whether past Apple designs were innovative or not.

Look at the Past for inspiration, if you want, but we're heading for the Future.

Man, you guys are touchy lot.

"G of ED." Funny.
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post #37 of 37
To he, or her who started this thread. Awesome topic! This should be a great thread if it stays on topic.

I'll post later. I'm busy, sorry.
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