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Auto Industry Bailout

post #1 of 616
11/16/08 at 3:39pm
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  • e1618978
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Please just let them die. If GM was a horse we would shoot it.

I'm not even sure why we are trying to avoid bankruptcy anyway - If GM went into Chapter 11, wouldn't the common and preferred shareholders get wiped out, and most of the old debt holders become the new shareholders? GM would have a much easier time getting back into shape if less of their cash flow was not paid out to debt holders. I don't know what that means for credit default swaps on that debt, we would have to see how the cds contracts are written - and I know that some of the debt holders (supplier companies) can't afford to trade their debt for stock, but most would be able to.

Would bankruptcy really cause job loss? Massive job loss in the auto industry is a given, I think it could be done in a more gradual fashion if most of the debt was converted to stock.

I think that Pelosi is just flushing our tax money down the drain.
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post #2 of 616
11/16/08 at 5:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post


I think that Pelosi is just flushing our tax money down the drain.

Are you surprised?
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post #3 of 616
11/16/08 at 6:50pm
An honest question: who makes our military vehicles?
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post #4 of 616
11/16/08 at 6:54pm
To which I add: could be interesting to watch the President carted around in a Toyota limo instead of a Caddy.
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post #5 of 616
11/16/08 at 7:58pm
That's a lot of jobs lost.
The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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post #6 of 616
11/16/08 at 10:45pm
They're going to be lost anyway.

Urban populations are now at a tipping point where mass transit is going to come back in a big way. The 60's are over, and the never-ending highway system expansion is now going to be replaced largely by mass transit expansion. North America is growing up. Households with 2, 3 and 4 cars will be downsizing and the death of at least one North American automaker is inevitable.

And this is also exactly what most people with a focus on the environment wanted, so it's somewhat crazy to try to combat it with a taxpayer funded bailout.

Let. Them. Die. (ok, not die, as much as merge and reorganize.)

Bankruptcy is a natural cycle in our economic system. Happens in our airlines all the time, and no one has stopped building planes or buying tickets. As Andrew Coyne pointed out last week, when an automaker files bankruptcy papers, the tools, machinery and factories don't just disappear.
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post #7 of 616
11/16/08 at 11:40pm
Fuck 'em. None of the Big 3 did anything to innovate or respond to the worldwide automotive markets. They make shitty products and have been for DECADES now. My dad's two year old Ford F150 is the biggest stinking pile of junk I've ever seen. And it's only TWO YEARS OLD. The interior is falling apart. The build quality is absolutely atrocious. It's on its second transmission.

Jobs. That's the excuse I keep hearing. But then I think about the fat slobs who built that piece of shit truck my dad still has three years left to pay on and I think ... fuck 'em. If they took some goddamned pride in their work maybe big auto wouldn't be in the mess they're in.

When did absolute stunning incompetence become something we reward in this country? Why is it that I, an entrepreneur, am expected to live and die by the sword in this country and then be told I should support big auto, the airlines, big insurance, banking, etc. and their dereliction of duty?

I've been giving my money to the Germans for a while now. And I plan on giving them some more soon. I won't even walk into a Cadillac dealer and test drive the Escalade. I already know it'll be nice for a few months...until shit starts falling off of it. Same thing with the Yukon. First quarter of next year there will be brand new Touareg in my drive way.

THAT's a free market! Make a good product, people will buy it. Make a shitty product and you get sent the discount isle.
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post #8 of 616
11/17/08 at 3:21am
I can see GM not getting the bailout money, but Ford does. The reason is simple: Ford has a clear plan to transform itself for the new economic reality, something members of Congress really like.
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post #9 of 616
11/17/08 at 3:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Fuck 'em. None of the Big 3 did anything to innovate or respond to the worldwide automotive markets. They make shitty products and have been for DECADES now. My dad's two year old Ford F150 is the biggest stinking pile of junk I've ever seen. And it's only TWO YEARS OLD. The interior is falling apart. The build quality is absolutely atrocious. It's on its second transmission.

Jobs. That's the excuse I keep hearing. But then I think about the fat slobs who built that piece of shit truck my dad still has three years left to pay on and I think ... fuck 'em. If they took some goddamned pride in their work maybe big auto wouldn't be in the mess they're in.

When did absolute stunning incompetence become something we reward in this country? Why is it that I, an entrepreneur, am expected to live and die by the sword in this country and then be told I should support big auto, the airlines, big insurance, banking, etc. and their dereliction of duty?

I've been giving my money to the Germans for a while now. And I plan on giving them some more soon. I won't even walk into a Cadillac dealer and test drive the Escalade. I already know it'll be nice for a few months...until shit starts falling off of it. Same thing with the Yukon. First quarter of next year there will be brand new Touareg in my drive way.

THAT's a free market! Make a good product, people will buy it. Make a shitty product and you get sent the discount isle.

its not GM et al this would bailout, its all about supporting the unions, its a union bailout, look at the other "features" of the new administration "open and fair" ballots, namely they look at how you voted and punish you till you vote "their way" its about pushing the union agenda and not the american public as "special" interest. the big three are bloated and for many reasons less and less able to compete, i want a quality car that is safe and gets good mileage, so where in the big 3 in this , ok some products are good but the attitude is produce -sell- give rebates.....produce -sell - give rebates.....big three use the rental fleets to take over production which kills your resale value. after being burned twice, i won't go back, chysler has the lowest product quality so why should they survive....on our tax dollars. yes contraction is needed the best designs will be "bought" out by a new automotive entity, and the consumer is the better for it. subsidizing garbage only promotes more garbage. we are going through a much needed re-alignment in our economy and i don't trust government to respond better than good ol' capitalist market forces. geee if government produced a car.....it would look like a yugo with square tires.
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post #10 of 616
11/17/08 at 5:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoMan01 View Post

I can see GM not getting the bailout money, but Ford does. The reason is simple: Ford has a clear plan to transform itself for the new economic reality, something members of Congress really like.


What pay tell is this "clear plan to transform itself for the new economic reality" The Flex? The 500? The {BLANK} Hybrid?
The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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post #11 of 616
11/17/08 at 6:17am
WOW you all need to start being rational and less hateful. Of course the bailout is essential. These great and yes despite owning an Audi, they're great companies with stunning histories that are in transition to a future that will make significant leaps. Just because they haven't got the Prius doesn't mean they won't have a significant stance in the coming years. These companies are very well positioned for the future. Don't try crippling them at the begining of this automotive revolution!

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~ William Hazlitt

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post #12 of 616
11/17/08 at 6:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

WOW you all need to start being rational and less hateful. Of course the bailout is essential. These great and yes despite owning an Audi, they're great companies with stunning histories that are in transition to a future that will make significant leaps. Just because they haven't got the Prius doesn't mean they won't have a significant stance in the coming years. These companies are very well positioned for the future. Don't try crippling them at the begining of this automotive revolution!

How exactly are they "very well positioned for the future" to "make significant leaps"?
The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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post #13 of 616
11/17/08 at 7:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

How exactly are they "very well positioned for the future" to "make significant leaps"?

GM is a hundred year old company with a portfolio of heritage that makes Toyota etc "green" with envy. GM is a very large company (it sold 8.3 million vehicles in the US last year, that's more than Toyota) What these US companies have is respect and and influence like no other. Their potential, as US companies with Washington is huge, significantly more so than Toyota with Tokyo. Obama can push start all the powers in tech to work together to move these companies foreward. Washington can't stand back and let big oil influence them. There's a real automotive revolution coming and Washington has to make the new rules favour the global green market, not big oil.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #14 of 616
11/17/08 at 7:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOFEER View Post

its not GM et al this would bailout, its all about supporting the unions, its a union bailout, look at the other "features" of the new administration "open and fair" ballots, namely they look at how you voted and punish you till you vote "their way" its about pushing the union agenda and not the american public as "special" interest. the big three are bloated and for many reasons less and less able to compete, i want a quality car that is safe and gets good mileage, so where in the big 3 in this , ok some products are good but the attitude is produce -sell- give rebates.....produce -sell - give rebates.....big three use the rental fleets to take over production which kills your resale value. after being burned twice, i won't go back, chysler has the lowest product quality so why should they survive....on our tax dollars. yes contraction is needed the best designs will be "bought" out by a new automotive entity, and the consumer is the better for it. subsidizing garbage only promotes more garbage. we are going through a much needed re-alignment in our economy and i don't trust government to respond better than good ol' capitalist market forces. geee if government produced a car.....it would look like a yugo with square tires.

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Please use it wisely.

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post #15 of 616
11/17/08 at 7:28am
Auto Workers Union Rules Out Concessions To Help Detroit Bailout

Quote:
The US United Auto Workers (UAW) union has ruled out concessions - at least for the time being - to help rescue the ailing Detroit-based car industry.

I say let them sink.

Heck, the average auto worker will still get a nice Social Security check every month and Medicare benefits anyway.

The US auto industry circumvented the CAFE standards, first with the minivan, and then with the SUV. The big three sold high margin vehicles because that's the only type of vehicle their buisness model could make a profit on.

Look at where all the new auto manufacturing plants are being built today, the south, because they are not unionized.

Give the auto workers two choices, no salary/pension, or a reduced salary/pension.
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post #16 of 616
11/17/08 at 7:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

How exactly are they "very well positioned for the future" to "make significant leaps"?

Look it up... Ford was doing it before the current collapse, mainly because of the rising gas prices.

IMO: These guys need to sell cars quickly. They all have some hybrids and small cars available now. Instead of shoveling money into their bank accounts, why not use the $12 billion to provide rebates and/or financing to the American people who buy them?

I mean couldn't they sell a bunch of vehicles quickly if there was like a 50% tax credit on the purchase of a US car? That keeps everybody in the chain busy and lots of people get nice new cars. Toyota would be pissed, sure, but as a temporary measure to help the big 3 get their shit together...at least the schmucks can pick up a ride cheap.

<RANT>But like the financial industry, they sucked out all the profits and made no plans for tomorrow after leaving nothing but an empty shell. Now they want the sucker public to pay, again, and the politicians whom they donate to and bribe will likely attempt to accommodate them. They want the public to pick up the tab as if they did nothing wrong and should be immune to the consequences for reasons that nobody can explain.

Right, so to recap, the rich people stole all the money and now the world must go into depression.</RANT>
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post #17 of 616
11/17/08 at 7:48am
Thread Starter 
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

First quarter of next year there will be brand new Touareg in my drive way.

Last time I checked The Tauareg was the least reliable SUV sold in america - even worse than Land Rover. You are much better off with a Volvo XC90 or a BMW X5. Plus Volkswagen has a really bad reputation for customer service.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

WOW you all need to start being rational and less hateful. Of course the bailout is essential. These great and yes despite owning an Audi, they're great companies with stunning histories that are in transition to a future that will make significant leaps. Just because they haven't got the Prius doesn't mean they won't have a significant stance in the coming years. These companies are very well positioned for the future. Don't try crippling them at the begining of this automotive revolution!

GM is a hundred year old company with a portfolio of heritage that makes Toyota etc "green" with envy. GM is a very large company (it sold 8.3 million vehicles in the US last year, that's more than Toyota) What these US companies have is respect and and influence like no other. Their potential, as US companies with Washington is huge, significantly more so than Toyota with Tokyo. Obama can push start all the powers in tech to work together to move these companies foreward. Washington can't stand back and let big oil influence them. There's a real automotive revolution coming and Washington has to make the new rules favour the global green market, not big oil.

I'm 41 - the last time the US car makers made a cool car was when I was 2 years old. They suck - sure, Buick, Cadallac and Chevy used to be the coolest brands on the planet, but they burned those bridges long ago.

The Automotive revolution started with the beetle and the Honda Civic, and I think 40 years is long enough to figure out that they can't adapt. The big 3 had a task force to try and compete in the small car market, and they dropped it because they could not compete due to high labor costs.

What is it about GM that makes you think it is worth saving? Lehmann brothers was 150 years old - so what?
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post #18 of 616
11/17/08 at 8:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Auto Workers Union Rules Out Concessions To Help Detroit Bailout



I say let them sink.

Heck, the average auto worker will still get a nice Social Security check every month and Medicare benefits anyway.

The US auto industry circumvented the CAFE standards, first with the minivan, and then with the SUV. The big three sold high margin vehicles because that's the only type of vehicle their buisness model could make a profit on.

Look at where all the new auto manufacturing plants are being built today, the south, because they are not unionized.

Give the auto workers two choices, no salary/pension, or a reduced salary/pension.

I think the opposite. Pay them more ($14 an hour for new employees on an assembly line in the US isn't a whole fucking lot of incentive) give them greater flexibility. Businesses are forever saying that you have to pay for talent with large salaries and low taxes. Give these employees incentive ,not less incentive by bleeding them dry. These companies will be able to pay salaries if Washington frees up innovation. Gas prices are much higher in Europe therefore more consumers demand more fuel efficient vehicles. The US companies (less so Ford) have had there sights too much on the US market and need to change focus, they need a new business model and that requires large capital investment. Health care, innovation, investment are all factors that Obama can influence. It's optimism in the long and short term that'll create a legacy Obama will be thanked and remembered for. Bush's crowd would happily dismantle GM and create bite sized companies that government could not influence and that's not what's going to produce innovation. Innovation has to have the government involved, extending opportunities to invest in new higher quality and green vehicles. So I guess we can all expect the repubs in congress to try to stall substantive change.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #19 of 616
11/17/08 at 8:13am
People seems to be suck on the idea that if only they could sell the right kind of car from the right kind of plant with the right waged worker they would be fine. It's far far more than that.

Why Bankruptcy Is the Best Option for GM


Quote:
General Motors is a once-great company caught in a web of relationships designed for another era. It should not be fed while still caught, because that will leave it trapped until we get tired of feeding it. Then it will die. The only possibility of saving it is to take the risk of cutting it free. In other words, GM should be allowed to go bankrupt.

Consider the costs of tackling GM's problems with some kind of bailout plan. After 42 years of eroding U.S. market share (from 53% to 20%) and countless announcements of "change," GM still has eight U.S. brands (Cadillac, Saab, Buick, Pontiac, GMC, Saturn, Chevrolet and Hummer). As for its more successful competitors, Toyota (19% market share) has three, and Honda (11%) has two.

GM has about 7,000 dealers. Toyota has fewer than 1,500. Honda has about 1,000. These fewer and larger dealers are better able to advertise, stock and service the cars they sell. GM knows it needs fewer brands and dealers, but the dealers are protected from termination by state laws. This makes eliminating them and the brands they sell very expensive. It would cost GM billions of dollars and many years to reduce the number of dealers it has to a number near Toyota's.

...
The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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post #20 of 616
11/17/08 at 8:15am
Thread Starter 
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Bush's crowd would happily dismantle GM and create bite sized companies that government could not influence and that's not what's going to produce innovation. Innovation has to have the government involved, extending opportunities to invest in new higher quality and green vehicles. So I guess we can all expect the repubs in congress to try to stall substantive change.

Sorry, bite sized companies produce the bulk of the world's innovative businesses, and government involvement crushes innovation dead. Can you provide at least one example that supports your claims (i.e. where big business with heavy government involvement is the best route to innovative business practices and products)?
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post #21 of 616
11/17/08 at 8:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Last time I checked The Tauareg was the least reliable SUV sold in america - even worse than Land Rover. You are much better off with a Volvo XC90 or a BMW X5. Plus Volkswagen has a really bad reputation for customer service.



I'm 41 - the last time the US car makers made a cool car was when I was 2 years old. They suck - sure, Buick, Cadallac and Chevy used to be the coolest brands on the planet, but they burned those bridges long ago.

The Automotive revolution started with the beetle and the Honda Civic, and I think 40 years is long enough to figure out that they can't adapt. The big 3 had a task force to try and compete in the small car market, and they dropped it because they could not compete due to high labor costs.

What is it about GM that makes you think it is worth saving? Lehmann brothers was 150 years old - so what?

I'm all for small start-ups but GM could move things quicker, given it's already a huge company than relatively, very small companies can. They sell a lot of vehicles and that means they change a lot even when they only change a little. Unleash their potential as a global player and that's a sturdy foundation for innovation.
Quality can change and will I believe, as these giants are forced to compete in a more demanding environment. The belief that cutting employees wages is the answer to being competitive is only partly true and in some cases completely wrong. The whole outlook has to change. so that the US government responds with legislation that promotes incentives for all the workers and unifying technological advancements from different sectors, expanding them and promoting them across the whole of the US and in turn to extend that to the rest of the world or soon people wont just be driving foreign made cars they'll be living and working in foreign made houses and businesses, right here in the US all powered by foreign made electricity.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #22 of 616
11/17/08 at 8:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Sorry, bite sized companies produce the bulk of the world's innovative businesses, and government involvement crushes innovation dead. Can you provide at least one example that supports your claims (i.e. where big business with heavy government involvement is the best route to innovative business practices and products)?

No I can't, but look at Europe. It's governments support new green technologies instead of coal, that people want. They stimulate BMW ,VW etc to be involved, to invest in the future not just the big coal, big oil etc. Governments can be productive. And I'm not saying governments the great solution I'm just saying that government can help to stimulate an environment where opportunity isn't only in the hands of the wealthy status quo businesses who can create a stranglehold on governments and businesses to prevent new start-ups or large businesses from investing in new ways that often could otherwise threaten their stranglehold.
My point with GM is simply that given it's so big, if it moves to a forward looking approach to competing globally with innovative, green vehicles that represents a very substantial change in the auto market thereby impacting oil sales etc drastically, something that many vested interests don't want to see, notably in the retarded types that populate Palin and Co. thinking which is drill and burn baby burn.............................until Armageddon.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #23 of 616
11/17/08 at 8:55am
Bizarre. GM is a big innovative company but ... they split off their parts supplier into Delphi. Ford split off Visteon. Government can have a hand in innovation but the politics in play is union job protection. We gotta save a heritage industry but turn our backs to all the others (and increase taxes on them).

I'd rather see a phoenix rise from the ashes. I have no doubt that the US can make cars that truly rival Japanese and European cars but not with the current businesses.

Time to rip the band-aid off.
The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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post #24 of 616
11/17/08 at 9:04am
Thread Starter 
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I'm all for small start-ups but GM could move things quicker, given it's already a huge company than relatively, very small companies can.

Even if you are right, why do we need all three of the auto makers? Ford and Toyota would be enough - we could let Chrysler and GM die. Only 7 million cars are forecast to be sold next year, not enough to feed all those mouths.

Also, even if you are right, why is bankruptcy a bad option? The debt holders would become the new stockholders, and the company would have an easier time than they would with a bailout even. All the bailout is doing is attempting to save the stockholders from losing everything - every other stakeholder (employees, suppliers, country, etc) will do better in bankruptcy than out of it.
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post #25 of 616
11/17/08 at 9:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Bizarre. GM is a big innovative company but ... they split off their parts supplier into Delphi. Ford split off Visteon. Government can have a hand in innovation but the politics in play is union job protection. We gotta save a heritage industry but turn our backs to all the others (and increase taxes on them).

I'd rather see a phoenix rise from the ashes. I have no doubt that the US can make cars that truly rival Japanese and European cars but not with the current businesses.

Time to rip the band-aid off.

No way - time to put the brand back on!

Your foolish not to see that America's future is dependent on these large businesses to compete globally. Throwing them out to avoid investing in new technologies is a bad idea and that and votes is what the repubs are after. Real government investment in the auto industry, and without exception the American auto industry, is set to be the best government investment of all time in the US. That is what small businesses and large businesses need.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #26 of 616
11/17/08 at 9:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Even if you are right, why do we need all three of the auto makers? Ford and Toyota would be enough - we could let Chrysler and GM die. Only 7 million cars are forecast to be sold next year, not enough to feed all those mouths.

Also, even if you are right, why is bankruptcy a bad option? The debt holders would become the new stockholders, and the company would have an easier time than they would with a bailout even. All the bailout is doing is attempting to save the stockholders from losing everything - every other stakeholder (employees, suppliers, country, etc) will do better in bankruptcy than out of it.

Dismantling the company is a bad option.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

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post #27 of 616
11/17/08 at 9:59am
Thread Starter 
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Dismantling the company is a bad option.

Bankruptcy is not about dismantling the company - did you even read my posts? Dismantling the company(-ies) will happen with or without a bankruptcy, and with or without a bailout. The bankruptcy is a separate issue, with pro-s and con-s that are unrelated to job losses and the dismantling of companies.
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post #28 of 616
11/17/08 at 10:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Bankruptcy is not about dismantling the company - did you even read my posts? Dismantling the company(-ies) will happen with or without a bankruptcy, and with or without a bailout. The bankruptcy is a separate issue, with pro-s and con-s that are unrelated to job losses and the dismantling of companies.

Nonsense, massive job losses would happen across the whole auto industry and foreign countries would gain huge influence in the worldwide auto business for a long time to come. To lose the auto business is blindly what you and others are actually proposing.
Massive job losses by the way are not inevitable for the US auto industry as you said, some sure. Giiven China and India are still expanding fast we, the US, should be aggresively getting as many sales to them asap and we can. This repub bull is just bargaining and isn't routed in a political agenda other than concessions. Your arguements mute at best because it just isn't going to happen. Luckily the repubs can't get there teeth into destroying very competent and forward looking US automakers. Bankruptcy is a volatile unknown that would be the only avenue the repubs could persue to mold the auto industry.Whilst there are certainly many different outcomes to bankruptcy the only ones desiring that in the larger scheme of things are the repubs and they would beat the big three to pulp with it given the opportunity.

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post #29 of 616
11/17/08 at 10:40am
Thread Starter 
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Nonsense, massive job losses would happen across the whole auto industry and foreign countries would gain huge influence in the worldwide auto business for a long time to come. To lose the auto business is blindly what you and others are actually proposing.

Why would bankruptcy result in extra job losses? Please re-read my posts before replying, or if you don't understand what I have written, then don't reply.
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post #30 of 616
11/17/08 at 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I think the opposite. Pay them more ($14 an hour for new employees on an assembly line in the US isn't a whole fucking lot of incentive) give them greater flexibility. Businesses are forever saying that you have to pay for talent with large salaries and low taxes. Give these employees incentive ,not less incentive by bleeding them dry. These companies will be able to pay salaries if Washington frees up innovation. Gas prices are much higher in Europe therefore more consumers demand more fuel efficient vehicles. The US companies (less so Ford) have had there sights too much on the US market and need to change focus, they need a new business model and that requires large capital investment. Health care, innovation, investment are all factors that Obama can influence. It's optimism in the long and short term that'll create a legacy Obama will be thanked and remembered for. Bush's crowd would happily dismantle GM and create bite sized companies that government could not influence and that's not what's going to produce innovation. Innovation has to have the government involved, extending opportunities to invest in new higher quality and green vehicles. So I guess we can all expect the repubs in congress to try to stall substantive change.

The NEW UAW contract STARTS AT $14.00/hour for hourly workers only into non-core jobs (you know like grass cutters).

What about the existing legacy jobs and health/retirement benefits that number in the several hundreds of thousands?

Crysler Labor Talks 2007

Economic Data

Quote:
Competitive Labor Cost Comparison
2006 Average Labor Costs — UAW represented (per hour worked)

DaimlerChrysler $75.86

Ford $70.51

General Motors $73.26


U.S. Japanese Transplants Labor Cost Comparison
2005 Average Labor Costs

*Honda $42.95

*Nissan $41.97

*Toyota $47.60

*Memo: DaimlerChrysler estimates
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post #31 of 616
11/17/08 at 11:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOFEER View Post

its not GM et al this would bailout, its all about supporting the unions, its a union bailout, look at the other "features" of the new administration "open and fair" ballots, namely they look at how you voted and punish you till you vote "their way" its about pushing the union agenda and not the american public as "special" interest. the big three are bloated and for many reasons less and less able to compete, i want a quality car that is safe and gets good mileage, so where in the big 3 in this , ok some products are good but the attitude is produce -sell- give rebates.....produce -sell - give rebates.....big three use the rental fleets to take over production which kills your resale value. after being burned twice, i won't go back, chysler has the lowest product quality so why should they survive....on our tax dollars. yes contraction is needed the best designs will be "bought" out by a new automotive entity, and the consumer is the better for it. subsidizing garbage only promotes more garbage. we are going through a much needed re-alignment in our economy and i don't trust government to respond better than good ol' capitalist market forces. geee if government produced a car.....it would look like a yugo with square tires.

PLEASE
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post #32 of 616
11/17/08 at 11:06am
So the thing is that without the bail out, GM is likely to go chapter 11 bankrupt. If they do, then this will quickly kill them off*, then they will need to liquidate assets, cease business and close up shop. A lot of dealers and manufacturing jobs will be lost but I think GM needs to live or die on their own. This is where the market can come in and fill the void; mass transportation centric companies, green transportation industry, other American auto makers.

* When shopping for a car, a major investment, who would be confident buying a car from a company that has gone bankrupt?
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post #33 of 616
11/17/08 at 11:25am
To franksargent -
I already wrote that production line workers will be starting at $14 an hour, so no need to repeat it in bold letters.
You make my case for a nationalized health care system instead of the US crap both, unfortunately, parties want to prop up.
You need to lower wages constantly to win, I don't think so. But it is a serious problem. Many factors effect wages here and abroad and governments globaly need to efficiently Persue co-operative trade, something sadly this bailout will help to erode. IMO though the benefits for the US as a whole are huge and compromises can be made elsewhere. There won't be a perfect scenario for wage disparagies between nations. But given that Americans currently have 65% more spending power than Europeans on average, it's not doing too badly in all areas.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #34 of 616
11/17/08 at 11:34am
The notion that there is this massive "green" business that will spring into existence and fill a void thus saving the auto companies is exactly why the government should STAY OUT and let nature take its course. What is the void and what product will be made at what cost to fill it? It sounds like deus ex machina. [edit to add] Oh and why can't private capitol fund this vast new market that will be profitable?
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The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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post #35 of 616
11/17/08 at 11:47am
Thread Starter 
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outsider View Post

When shopping for a car, a major investment, who would be confident buying a car from a company that has gone bankrupt?

Good point - I think that a bankruptcy of one of the auto makers would trigger all of them to go bankrupt (even Toyota, with its 120 billion in long term debt). Once one of them has the competitive advantage of no debt, none of the others are viable without doing the same thing.

What I see is all of the shareholders getting wiped out, and all of the debt holders becoming the new shareholders. The whole industry would be in and out of bankruptcy pretty fast, and since all the auto makers would participate, you wouldn't have a choice - if you want to buy a car at all it would be from a (temporarily) bankrupt company.

Once the debt is gone, no more need for a government bailout.
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post #36 of 616
11/17/08 at 12:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

To franksargent -
I already wrote that production line workers will be starting at $14 an hour, ...

No, you are wrong, in fact 100% wrong.

I provided the main link per my previous post. The $14/hour is for hourly new hire non-core jobs only, like grass cutters, like custodians, like ... \

As to the rest of your reply it has all the markings of gibberish.

Did you even look at the numbers I posted ~$70+/hour (UAW Ford/GM/Crysler) versus ~$40+/hour (non-UAW Honda/Toyota/Nissan)?
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post #37 of 616
11/17/08 at 1:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

No, you are wrong, in fact 100% wrong.

I provided the main link per my previous post. The $14/hour is for hourly new hire non-core jobs only, like grass cutters, like custodians, like ... \

As to the rest of your reply it has all the markings of gibberish.

Did you even look at the numbers I posted ~$70+/hour (UAW Ford/GM/Crysler) versus ~$40+/hour (non-UAW Honda/Toyota/Nissan)?

If you do the research you'll find that the $14 an hour for new employees on a production line is going to go into effect.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #38 of 616
11/17/08 at 1:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Last time I checked The Tauareg was the least reliable SUV sold in america - even worse than Land Rover. You are much better off with a Volvo XC90 or a BMW X5. Plus Volkswagen has a really bad reputation for customer service.

I've owned five VW's and have loved them all. And VW has taken good care of my current car. Yes, the transmission failed but it cost me $0 to repair and only took 36 hours to get my car back.

But all that is academic as I could pull quotes from owners of every car maker that hate Honda, or hate Toyota, or hate VW, etc., for whatever reason.

I'll take the worst VW over the best Chevy any day.

My 7 year old Jetta GLX still feels tight. My buddies 3-year old CTX feels like a go-cart.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #39 of 616
11/17/08 at 1:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

If you do the research you'll find that the $14 an hour for new employees on a production line is going to go into effect.

Link? Specifically a UAW link.

I've already provided a bona fide link stating that $14/hour for production line UAW workers is just not so.
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post #40 of 616
11/17/08 at 1:30pm
HERE'S AN IDEA!

Why doesn't BIG OIL bail out the automotive industry? The reason GM, Ford, and Chrysler have refused to make innovative and efficient vehicles is because of their marriage with Exxon et al. It's obvious to everyone that Big Oil killed the EV1. And once all those cars got sent to rot in the deserts of Arizona, the automotive industry said, "screw it, let's build gas guzzling SUVs."

So. Isn't it in Big Oil's interest to keep GM, Ford and Chrysler in the business of making gas guzzlers? So let them spend, what, one quarter's profits (??) and bail them out.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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