Auto Industry Bailout - Page 4

That's not very Hopey and Changey.

DISCLAIMER: I am not a hybrid fanboi. However ...

How many anecdotal pieces of evidence do you have to support this claim? Your terrain? Your altitude? Your fuel? City versus highway? Etceteras?

Diesel fuel has more energy density per unit volume (e. g. gallon or liter) of fuel.


Toyota Prius independent test data and comparisons with other vehicles

There are nine references at the above link, and all of them are valid "real world" reviews;

City 34.7 MPG average (N = 4), overall 45.4 MPG average (N = 23).

Also see Find a Car at the EPA's fueleconomy.gov website. There you will find a sample size of N = 682 (I threw out the two highest MPG values as these IMHO are statistical outliers) for the Prius for model years 2001-9 inclusive.

Average (mean) = 47.6 MPG
Median = 47.6 MPG
Sigma ~ 5 MPG

And the MPG population distribution looks a lot like a normal distribution (e. g. bell curve).

Your anecdotal "mid-30s" (i. e. 35 MPG) is ~2.5 sigma below the above mean. And based on the above reviews your "mid-30s" would appear to be the result of purely city driving, or some other causal relationship.

Given that the Prius has a curb weight ~2,900 lbs, a Cd ~0.26, and a frontal area of ~25 sq. ft., suggests, to me anyway, that this vehicle or a similarly configured ICE, can very easily achieve 40+ MPG in typical highway driving.

That private jet bullshit is pretty stupid and only intended for public entertainment. Does anyone think these guys have time to wait around for a flight let alone get stranded in some city because they missed their connection?

Too bad congress can't deal with real issues.

Embarrassed GM axes two private jets

Where's Bush? I thought he WAS the president.

In one breath they complain that Obama's already measuring the drapes. In the other breath they complain Obama's no leading. Jesus!

Uh no. I heard on the news the other night he says he'd bail them out conditionally.

But you know he actually has to be president first.

While Bush is in fucking PERU, Obama leaked his Sec Treas. The market shot up 400 points.

Totally absent, I'd say.

Bush was in "fucking PERU" attending the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation talking about free trade. Kind of a ligit' presidential function. Or no?

Can you say " Lame Duck " ?

I thought so.

Right on SDW. You hit the nail on the head.

Lame duck or no he wasn't there on vacation. Can you say "off base"?

I though so.

He's futzing around on purpose. He won't do anything more to help the country is the truth.

Considering this gentleman's long history of making things worse when comes to cooperation with the democrats there really isn't much I could say that would be " Off base ".

No I don't think we can look for help there. He's too busy thinking about retiring to Texas to write his book.

Lame Duck!

Oh yea 'cause democrats have don't such a great job cooperating with him

How can they when he's been busy ruining the country?

Not so difficult with a head as large as his. \

Also...am I supposed to believe the people who told me Iraq was a threat to the world with their massive stockpiles of WMD were lying when they said auto workers cost $70 an hour?

Who would have thought?

Correct. And the new starting wage for assembly line workers is $14 an hour with no pension and no health care coverage - that wage is not for "grasscutters" as franksargent" has been intent on arguing. Not only that, but their work load has increased.

Holy shit. Cavuto and Ben Stein have a screaming fight.

I await comment from Addabox, as I suspect that the fight plays directly into the problems with the GOP he's identified elsethread.

100% wrong. \

They get health coverage while employed and can contribute to a 401K retirement plan. Once retired they would be eligible for Medicare coverage. This is actually very similar to the government's current FERS package where the federal employees (and Congress) pay into a retirement plan and also pay into Social Security and Medicare, for which they become eligible once they reach the minimum age requirements of these government programs.

There are core and non-core job classifications, non-core make up only ~20% (at most) of all UAW jobs. The non-core jobs start at $14/hour, and get automatic increases for each 26-week period during the first two years of employment, they also get a bonus each year (also known as pay for performance in the federal government) based on their job performance.

Get all the UAW contract facts straight, and stop misrepresenting the actual truth of the matter.

The autoworkers don't directly make ~$70/hour, they cost the big three ~$70/hour.

It's also known as overhead, it includes the health benefits package (active and retired), the retirement package, vacation and sick leave, etceteras.

I've been waiting for someone to mention this just so that I could jump all over them for this very common misunderstanding. Thank you.

I worked for the government, where our overhead rate was ~2.7 times each employee's hourly wage, the overhead rates for the large private sector companies are actually not too different from the typical government overhead rate.

$28/hour * 2.7 = $75.60/hour! Who da thunk?

the bailout when it happens is about bailing out the unions
a bailout only promotes bad business and union choices
we and our children end up paying higher taxes, higher inflation, and higher car costs
there is no incentive if you are "too big to fail" to produce quality products that people want
do you think the government which had no "oversight" of the financial bailout to really know how to micromanage car companies, these politicians have not run a company, don't deal in reality only worry about then next election, and have a sweet-heart deal with their own pay raises, health insurance and retirement plan we have no access to.
i only trust them to make it worse...and we will look back at this these next few months as proof of their incompetence and how they ruined the domestic auto industry, financial industry and pushed us to a new era depression because they don't understand or want to understand the great depression and the role of a failure government. and in 5-10 years a new "war" to fix things
but they and the media will spin it so that it's OUR fault this all happened.
i fear for my family and my children's future

Lucky them! OK Iwas wrong about the health care. But you were wrong and still are wrong about assembly line workers being paid $14 an hour (and I bet there retirement/healthcare is much worse than what there long term employees were/and are getting. GM wants to grow this new category of jobs, basically demeaning their new employees to the "grasscutter" wages. GM is aiming to have somewhere around 35% of their workforce tied into harder and more sophisticated positions by 2011.
I think they have to cut wages- but they've gone too far with too many and I have no doubt that that will weaken them over time, not strengthen them.

DAMN THOSE UNIONS FOR DESTROYING CITICORP!!

Oh wait...wrong thread.

1.35 seems really light. 3 weeks vacation + 1 week sick + 2 weeks holidays is 11% right there. Then you have to factor in office space, equipment, medical, training, 401K matching, marketing, R&D and other overhead expenses. There's no way Nortel is 1.35 except bare bones, just benefits, no overhead.

2.7 seems a little high for government but not outrageous. When I was a beltway bandit our rates were like 1.8 and we were very very cheap in comparison to everyone else.

2 x salary is/was the rule of thumb when you had not other info and just had to make a wag.

The ~2.7x for us was at the high end, it was as low as 2.3x. What got us is/was somethimg called the Plant Replacement and Improvement Program (PRIP). That's where you build up plant infrastructure using government funding over time (decades) that you then pay back the government forever, or until you tear it down.

I am not wrong.

Some individuals may work the assembly/production line per the UAW contract agreements. But they are very much in the minority doing mostly jobs that don't require a vast amount of experience to begin with.

For every one individual you can find making $14/hour, I can find at least four individuals making $35/hour.

I'm glad at least you accept that the starting wage for some of the assembly line workers is $14. These agreements are relatively new as time goes on these newly defined workers will grow as a percentage. These new positions demand more from the employee and the employee get's paid a lot less than the positions (now requiring more training) did bring. Of course there are lots of workers earning more than that. I and I believe, no one else on this thread has argued to the contrary. This new category is expected to be 35% of GM's workforce by 2011. It's how there making themselves more profitable and I don't think it's all a bad idea. However like I said earlier it's gone too far IMO and no doubt, given the latest crisis further cut's in pay and starting wages and heavier workloads will follow.
I'm coming from the view that government should have been involved in a more productive way sooner, on the side of a greener future not on the side of bigger gas guzzlers. The BO government will intervene and help bring about Tesla style innovation to the big 3 and it wont be a day too soon. These lower wages are not the solution in themselves. I don't believe the workers should bare the brunt of poor management and bad government policy. If we could improve the technology and enough people bought it here and in I&C then the employees could get a fairer share of the profits.

This is gonna be bad.


I keep trying to remember. What is Steve Jobs's salary at Apple, again?

I assure you that even though Steve Job's salary is $1, his compensation for being CEO is certain not $1. I believe the jet deal and stock were estimated at $400 million for him.

I understand that. But paying him with stock ties his compensation to performance. Or to criminal trading activity!

It seems inconsistent, in the current climate, that Congress is bickering and squabbling over loaning $30 billion to the automakers, mere chump change compared to the $6 trillion which has been extorted from the US taxpayers (or generated out of thin air) to prop up the financial industry (read "organized bankster crime cartel"), without any questions being asked... and furthermore, the Federal Reverse is keeping the details about that $multitrillion operation under wraps.

Well I'm sure that the CEO's of the auto industry haven't been angels. However guys if something isn't done to pull their fat out of the fire things can get quite dicey for us all. With all of those people connected to them filing for unemployment it doesn't paint a very pretty picture. One of the things economists have said about this recession is that it's not " The great depression " when unemployment was 25 %. No not a pretty picture at all. Something has to be done. It just can't be unconditional.

funny how congress has no business experience not one asked for a plan to address the 2k per vehicle disadvantage vs toyota, nissan , honda has...or a path to PROFITABILITY --but profit is such an evil concept.... so how are they going to make up the difference ??? bankrupcy would allow them to renegotiate all contracts, but congress doesn't want that....we will subsidize their rolling failure.. and of the three ford may survive but the others well maybe not.
i want a quality safe car that gets good mileage......that lasts longer than the payments.....oh what about resale value.....
rolling failure. chrysler didn't even address their massive quality issues....save the unions, get government control....guarnteed failure and cost overruns.

I would be in favor of that. Ford needs a car that will get them there. Would it be the Fusion Hybrid?*


I myself am looking at a Tango Electric Cruiser. Only because it can smoke a Tesla Roadster.

*UPDATE: I just saw this and it begs the question...where will Ford build them?

One thing from this laughable mess is crystal clear to me now.

Life is not about being an honest, decent, upright citizen. Its not about having morals, or caring for the collective. Its not about wanting to do the right thing.

Those in power teach you this from a very early age - but its only to serve one agenda.

It allows those who do not play by the rules of common decency to take advantage of those who do.

It must be clear to those who plan and scheme, that a natural balance will evolve.

The shit at the top who don't adhere to any form of decency - while preaching from the tops of their voices how important it is - knowing full well that this is a necessary part of the system that keeps them at the top in advantage.

The bottom scrapping around in the shit to put food on the table at the end of the day. Naively believing that being a honest decent person, makes up for the fact that at every turn, someone in power is fucking them over, while pretending to be their role model, and selling them the false dream, that anyone can make it.

SO, as for the car industry, American cars by and large are a laughing stock amongst the rest of the world. Its no suprise that the 'three' are on the brink - and its simply because their cars are shit and their management is shit.

Bear in mind that this American Auto problem has been exacerbated over the last few decades, by the oil lobby who have gone to great lengths to sell the public the notion that there is no such thing as Global Warming, who have fostered an army of bastard, scientifically illiterate, drones, eager to peddle thier nonsense like vultures around a rotting corpse, at the slightest mention of fuel efficiency.

Which in effect has propped up the manufacturers of these dinosaurs of motors, and allowed them to survive beyond their era. Sadly, the oil money propaganda and the legion of demented idiots prevented the natural adaptation to the conditions and the 'real' market, and quite amusingly, instead of sloe 'evolution' to adapt to the conditions of reality - we now have the situation where they are going to be wiped cleanly from the earth in a flood of disaster of Noahific proportions.

Which is somewhat justice for the vile kinds people who people who prop up these lobby groups telling lie after lie.

However, as sammy notes, what the car industry needs, is chump change compared to what has been given to 'far more vile people' at the top.

Keep a note, that when the minority 'top' falls - there is no limit on how much everyone has to pay- even against their will - to bail them out. But when it largely comes down to average workers needing a bail out - the very same people who will have to do years of manual hard work to pay for bailing out the 'top' - NOBODY wants to know. The consensus is, that you cant even have the chump change out of the bottom of the barrel.

And for that, that makes the vast middle classes, just as vile, greedy and selfish, as the shit floating at the top.

Ford just jizzed in their pants.

Great...it took a Limey to convince me to buy an American automobile....add a gun turret and a rocket launcher and I'd gladly support the bailout!