or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Auto Industry Bailout
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Auto Industry Bailout - Page 4

post #121 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Where's Obama in all this? Seems to be rather absent. Considering the financial melt down you'd think he'd have something to say about the bailout, detroit bailout, sec of treasury the untapped $350B.


Hello? Hope? Change? Leadership?

He knows that the best thing is chapter 11, but he can't say that or he loses votes next time around. Everybody is hoping that chapter 11 happens before Jan 20th. They will squabble around enough so that no blame is placed, and the right thing happens anyway.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #122 of 616
That's not very Hopey and Changey.
post #123 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Most people that I know get mid-30s with their Priuses. The people who get higher than that are the ones that modify their driving styles to see how high they can get the number. You can easily beat a Prius with a deisel jetta.

DISCLAIMER: I am not a hybrid fanboi. However ...

How many anecdotal pieces of evidence do you have to support this claim? Your terrain? Your altitude? Your fuel? City versus highway? Etceteras?

Diesel fuel has more energy density per unit volume (e. g. gallon or liter) of fuel.

Quote:
When burnt, diesel typically releases about 38.6 MJ/l (138,700 BTU per US gallon), whereas gasoline releases 34.9 MJ/l (125,000 BTU per US gallon), 10% less[4] by energy density, but 45.41 MJ/kg and 48.47 MJ/kg, 6.7% more by specific energy. Diesel is generally simpler to refine from petroleum than gasoline.

Toyota Prius independent test data and comparisons with other vehicles

There are nine references at the above link, and all of them are valid "real world" reviews;

City 34.7 MPG average (N = 4), overall 45.4 MPG average (N = 23).

Also see Find a Car at the EPA's fueleconomy.gov website. There you will find a sample size of N = 682 (I threw out the two highest MPG values as these IMHO are statistical outliers) for the Prius for model years 2001-9 inclusive.

Average (mean) = 47.6 MPG
Median = 47.6 MPG
Sigma ~ 5 MPG

And the MPG population distribution looks a lot like a normal distribution (e. g. bell curve).

Your anecdotal "mid-30s" (i. e. 35 MPG) is ~2.5 sigma below the above mean. And based on the above reviews your "mid-30s" would appear to be the result of purely city driving, or some other causal relationship.

Given that the Prius has a curb weight ~2,900 lbs, a Cd ~0.26, and a frontal area of ~25 sq. ft., suggests, to me anyway, that this vehicle or a similarly configured ICE, can very easily achieve 40+ MPG in typical highway driving.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
post #124 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

That's not very Hopey and Changey.

Not very Hopey, but chapter 11 is a pretty big Changey.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #125 of 616
post #126 of 616
That private jet bullshit is pretty stupid and only intended for public entertainment. Does anyone think these guys have time to wait around for a flight let alone get stranded in some city because they missed their connection?

Too bad congress can't deal with real issues.
post #127 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

That private jet bullshit is pretty stupid and only intended for public entertainment. Does anyone think these guys have time to wait around for a flight let alone get stranded in some city because they missed their connection?

Embarrassed GM axes two private jets

Quote:
General Motors, the embattled US carmaker, buffeted by criticism for sending its chief executive on a private jet to plead for government aid, vowed today to stop leasing two of its five company planes.

GM is "very sensitive" to "the symbolic issue of people showing up in Washington in corporate jets", spokesman Tom Wilkinson said, promising more cuts to come at the company.

But the show of contrition has come too late to spare GM and its fellow Detroit giants, Ford and Chrysler, from a lashing as investors weigh up the pile of debts pulling the carmakers to the brink of insolvency.
post #128 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilsch View Post

Oh right. It's all gonna be his fault now. Is this what Limbo is saying these days?

Where's Bush? I thought he WAS the president.

In one breath they complain that Obama's already measuring the drapes. In the other breath they complain Obama's no leading. Jesus!
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #129 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Where's Obama in all this? Seems to be rather absent. Considering the financial melt down you'd think he'd have something to say about the bailout, detroit bailout, sec of treasury the untapped $350B.


Hello? Hope? Change? Leadership?

Uh no. I heard on the news the other night he says he'd bail them out conditionally.

But you know he actually has to be president first.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #130 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

Try Googling before you ask a question.

While Bush is in fucking PERU, Obama leaked his Sec Treas. The market shot up 400 points.

Totally absent, I'd say.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #131 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

While Bush is in fucking PERU, Obama leaked his Sec Treas. The market shot up 400 points.

Totally absent, I'd say.

Bush was in "fucking PERU" attending the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation talking about free trade. Kind of a ligit' presidential function. Or no?
post #132 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Bush was in "fucking PERU" attending the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation talking about free trade. Kind of a ligit' presidential function. Or no?

Can you say " Lame Duck " ?

I thought so.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #133 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I imagine these opinions are widespread. I disagree with them, though.

First, we're not going to see some mass urbanization that suddenly requires fewer cars. To think otherwise--that somehow the suburbs are dead--is pure folly. Yes, there has been a trend towards urbanization, but not in the numbers that would be required to affect the overall demand for vehicles.

Secondly, I don't think that we can let GM (for example) go Chapter 11. Why? Well, as Pat Buchanan points out, it may cause them to go Chapter 7. That is, consumers may lose confidence that GM will be there to service their new vehicle years down the road, further driving down sales and causing not just bankruptcy, but them going out of business.

Now, as for the "fuck the big 3" attitude: This is so off base it's just laughable. The big three have been innovating in many ways, even if they did get caught up in profitable SUVs. For several years they've been developing flex fuel vehicles, hybrids electric vehicles, etc. Innovation is not the problem.

But I'll tell you what is the problem: The government. The US government has been brow beating the automakers into making vehicles that they can't economically make. Some of the technologies the government wanted didn't even exist yet when they were mandated by the government. Additionally, the government has allowed unfair trade practices to make overseas competition difficult. Of course, the Big Three have been further vilified as huge, soulless corporations that make obscene profits and pollute the environment. Hence, we have CAFE and MPG requirements that add costs. Now, the same people that caused the problem say they can fix it. Nice.

The Big Three certainly must take their share of the blame. Their vehicles are still not has high-quality as their Japanese counterparts, and their pricing/options/rebate structures are archaic and byzantine. But this is simply not all their fault. All in all, I think we should loan them the money they need to get through this period.

Right on SDW. You hit the nail on the head.
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. Thomas Jefferson
Reply
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. Thomas Jefferson
Reply
post #134 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Can you say " Lame Duck " ?

I thought so.

Lame duck or no he wasn't there on vacation. Can you say "off base"?

I though so.
post #135 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Lame duck or no he wasn't there on vacation. Can you say "off base"?

I though so.

He's futzing around on purpose. He won't do anything more to help the country is the truth.

Considering this gentleman's long history of making things worse when comes to cooperation with the democrats there really isn't much I could say that would be " Off base ".

No I don't think we can look for help there. He's too busy thinking about retiring to Texas to write his book.

Lame Duck!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #136 of 616
Oh yea 'cause democrats have don't such a great job cooperating with him
post #137 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Oh yea 'cause democrats have don't such a great job cooperating with him

How can they when he's been busy ruining the country?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #138 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo View Post

Right on SDW. You hit the nail on the head.

Not so difficult with a head as large as his. \

Also...am I supposed to believe the people who told me Iraq was a threat to the world with their massive stockpiles of WMD were lying when they said auto workers cost $70 an hour?

Who would have thought?
post #139 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Not so difficult with a head as large as his. \

Also...am I supposed to believe the people who told me Iraq was a threat to the world with their massive stockpiles of WMD were lying when they said auto workers cost $70 an hour?

Who would have thought?

Correct. And the new starting wage for assembly line workers is $14 an hour with no pension and no health care coverage - that wage is not for "grasscutters" as franksargent" has been intent on arguing. Not only that, but their work load has increased.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
post #140 of 616
Holy shit. Cavuto and Ben Stein have a screaming fight.

I await comment from Addabox, as I suspect that the fight plays directly into the problems with the GOP he's identified elsethread.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #141 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Correct. And the new starting wage for assembly line workers is $14 an hour with no pension and no health care coverage - that wage is not for "grasscutters" as franksargent" has been intent on arguing. Not only that, but their work load has increased.

100% wrong. \

They get health coverage while employed and can contribute to a 401K retirement plan. Once retired they would be eligible for Medicare coverage. This is actually very similar to the government's current FERS package where the federal employees (and Congress) pay into a retirement plan and also pay into Social Security and Medicare, for which they become eligible once they reach the minimum age requirements of these government programs.

There are core and non-core job classifications, non-core make up only ~20% (at most) of all UAW jobs. The non-core jobs start at $14/hour, and get automatic increases for each 26-week period during the first two years of employment, they also get a bonus each year (also known as pay for performance in the federal government) based on their job performance.

Get all the UAW contract facts straight, and stop misrepresenting the actual truth of the matter.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
post #142 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Not so difficult with a head as large as his. \

Also...am I supposed to believe the people who told me Iraq was a threat to the world with their massive stockpiles of WMD were lying when they said auto workers cost $70 an hour?

Who would have thought?

The autoworkers don't directly make ~$70/hour, they cost the big three ~$70/hour.

It's also known as overhead, it includes the health benefits package (active and retired), the retirement package, vacation and sick leave, etceteras.

I've been waiting for someone to mention this just so that I could jump all over them for this very common misunderstanding. Thank you.

I worked for the government, where our overhead rate was ~2.7 times each employee's hourly wage, the overhead rates for the large private sector companies are actually not too different from the typical government overhead rate.

$28/hour * 2.7 = $75.60/hour! Who da thunk?
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
post #143 of 616
the bailout when it happens is about bailing out the unions
a bailout only promotes bad business and union choices
we and our children end up paying higher taxes, higher inflation, and higher car costs
there is no incentive if you are "too big to fail" to produce quality products that people want
do you think the government which had no "oversight" of the financial bailout to really know how to micromanage car companies, these politicians have not run a company, don't deal in reality only worry about then next election, and have a sweet-heart deal with their own pay raises, health insurance and retirement plan we have no access to.
i only trust them to make it worse...and we will look back at this these next few months as proof of their incompetence and how they ruined the domestic auto industry, financial industry and pushed us to a new era depression because they don't understand or want to understand the great depression and the role of a failure government. and in 5-10 years a new "war" to fix things
but they and the media will spin it so that it's OUR fault this all happened.
i fear for my family and my children's future
I APPLE THEREFORE I AM
Reply
I APPLE THEREFORE I AM
Reply
post #144 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

100% wrong. \

They get health coverage while employed and can contribute to a 401K retirement plan. Once retired they would be eligible for Medicare coverage. This is actually very similar to the government's current FERS package where the federal employees (and Congress) pay into a retirement plan and also pay into Social Security and Medicare, for which they become eligible once they reach the minimum age requirements of these government programs.

There are core and non-core job classifications, non-core make up only ~20% (at most) of all UAW jobs. The non-core jobs start at $14/hour, and get automatic increases for each 26-week period during the first two years of employment, they also get a bonus each year (also known as pay for performance in the federal government) based on their job performance.

Get all the UAW contract facts straight, and stop misrepresenting the actual truth of the matter.

Lucky them! OK Iwas wrong about the health care. But you were wrong and still are wrong about assembly line workers being paid $14 an hour (and I bet there retirement/healthcare is much worse than what there long term employees were/and are getting. GM wants to grow this new category of jobs, basically demeaning their new employees to the "grasscutter" wages. GM is aiming to have somewhere around 35% of their workforce tied into harder and more sophisticated positions by 2011.
I think they have to cut wages- but they've gone too far with too many and I have no doubt that that will weaken them over time, not strengthen them.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
post #145 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

I worked for the government, where our overhead rate was ~2.7 times each employee's hourly wage, the overhead rates for the large private sector companies are actually not too different from the typical government overhead rate.

At Nortel, the loaded labor rate was 35% higher than people's salary - I think that your assumptions are wrong about large companies being the same as government. 270% is outrageous.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #146 of 616
DAMN THOSE UNIONS FOR DESTROYING CITICORP!!

Oh wait...wrong thread.

"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #147 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

At Nortel, the loaded labor rate was 35% higher than people's salary - I think that your assumptions are wrong about large companies being the same as government. 270% is outrageous.

1.35 seems really light. 3 weeks vacation + 1 week sick + 2 weeks holidays is 11% right there. Then you have to factor in office space, equipment, medical, training, 401K matching, marketing, R&D and other overhead expenses. There's no way Nortel is 1.35 except bare bones, just benefits, no overhead.

2.7 seems a little high for government but not outrageous. When I was a beltway bandit our rates were like 1.8 and we were very very cheap in comparison to everyone else.

2 x salary is/was the rule of thumb when you had not other info and just had to make a wag.
post #148 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

1.35 seems really light. 3 weeks vacation + 1 week sick + 2 weeks holidays is 11% right there. Then you have to factor in office space, equipment, medical, training, 401K matching, marketing, R&D and other overhead expenses. There's no way Nortel is 1.35 except bare bones, just benefits, no overhead.

2.7 seems a little high for government but not outrageous. When I was a beltway bandit our rates were like 1.8 and we were very very cheap in comparison to everyone else.

2 x salary is/was the rule of thumb when you had not other info and just had to make a wag.

The ~2.7x for us was at the high end, it was as low as 2.3x. What got us is/was somethimg called the Plant Replacement and Improvement Program (PRIP). That's where you build up plant infrastructure using government funding over time (decades) that you then pay back the government forever, or until you tear it down.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
post #149 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Lucky them! OK Iwas wrong about the health care. But you were wrong and still are wrong about assembly line workers being paid $14 an hour (and I bet there retirement/healthcare is much worse than what there long term employees were/and are getting.

I am not wrong.

Some individuals may work the assembly/production line per the UAW contract agreements. But they are very much in the minority doing mostly jobs that don't require a vast amount of experience to begin with.

For every one individual you can find making $14/hour, I can find at least four individuals making $35/hour.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
post #150 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

I am not wrong.

Some individuals may work the assembly/production line per the UAW contract agreements. But they are very much in the minority doing mostly jobs that don't require a vast amount of experience to begin with.

For every one individual you can find making $14/hour, I can find at least four individuals making $35/hour.

I'm glad at least you accept that the starting wage for some of the assembly line workers is $14. These agreements are relatively new as time goes on these newly defined workers will grow as a percentage. These new positions demand more from the employee and the employee get's paid a lot less than the positions (now requiring more training) did bring. Of course there are lots of workers earning more than that. I and I believe, no one else on this thread has argued to the contrary. This new category is expected to be 35% of GM's workforce by 2011. It's how there making themselves more profitable and I don't think it's all a bad idea. However like I said earlier it's gone too far IMO and no doubt, given the latest crisis further cut's in pay and starting wages and heavier workloads will follow.
I'm coming from the view that government should have been involved in a more productive way sooner, on the side of a greener future not on the side of bigger gas guzzlers. The BO government will intervene and help bring about Tesla style innovation to the big 3 and it wont be a day too soon. These lower wages are not the solution in themselves. I don't believe the workers should bare the brunt of poor management and bad government policy. If we could improve the technology and enough people bought it here and in I&C then the employees could get a fairer share of the profits.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
post #151 of 616
This is gonna be bad.

Quote:
It is unclear how Mr. Mulally's pay package will be reduced, this person said. Ideas under consideration included eliminating Mr. Mulally's salary until the company returns to profitability, or replacing his salary with more stock options, this person said. The CEO has earned close to $50 million in total compensation since taking the helm of Ford in 2006.

Executive compensation emerged as an issue when the Big Three CEOs asked Congress for financial help in November. In response to a question last week about taking a $1 salary in return for federal aid, Mr. Mulally said: "I think I'm OK where I am." Chrysler's Robert Nardelli said he would accept that condition, while GM's Rick Wagoner demurred.

Mr. Mulally's response unnerved Mr. Ford and some other members of the company's board, according to people familiar with the matter. A cut to Mr. Mulally's pay is "inevitable," said another person familiar with the matter.

I keep trying to remember. What is Steve Jobs's salary at Apple, again?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #152 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

This is gonna be bad.



I keep trying to remember. What is Steve Jobs's salary at Apple, again?

I assure you that even though Steve Job's salary is $1, his compensation for being CEO is certain not $1. I believe the jet deal and stock were estimated at $400 million for him.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #153 of 616
I understand that. But paying him with stock ties his compensation to performance. Or to criminal trading activity!
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #154 of 616
It seems inconsistent, in the current climate, that Congress is bickering and squabbling over loaning $30 billion to the automakers, mere chump change compared to the $6 trillion which has been extorted from the US taxpayers (or generated out of thin air) to prop up the financial industry (read "organized bankster crime cartel"), without any questions being asked... and furthermore, the Federal Reverse is keeping the details about that $multitrillion operation under wraps.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #155 of 616
Well I'm sure that the CEO's of the auto industry haven't been angels. However guys if something isn't done to pull their fat out of the fire things can get quite dicey for us all. With all of those people connected to them filing for unemployment it doesn't paint a very pretty picture. One of the things economists have said about this recession is that it's not " The great depression " when unemployment was 25 %. No not a pretty picture at all. Something has to be done. It just can't be unconditional.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #156 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Well I'm sure that the CEO's of the auto industry haven't been angels. However guys if something isn't done to pull their fat out of the fire things can get quite dicey for us all. With all of those people connected to them filing for unemployment it doesn't paint a very pretty picture. One of the things economists have said about this recession is that it's not " The great depression " when unemployment was 25 %. No not a pretty picture at all. Something has to be done. It just can't be unconditional.

Tons of people are going to get laid off in the Auto industry, regardless of the bailout. Fewer might actually get laid off if we had a synchronized bankruptcy of the big three with a wipeout of their stock and conversion of all their debt to stock. i.e. my OP that I started this thread with, and that you didn't read.

I'm in favor of any plan that gets rid of Chrysler and GM, and keeps Ford, Toyota and Honda alive. There are going to be layoffs anyway, might as well just get rid of the worst two automakers and let the people at the good automakers keep their jobs - rather than keeping the bad ones alive and having layoffs in every company. In particular, Chrysler should get no bailout, because it is owned by Cerberus, and they have tons of money that they could put into the company if they really thought it was a good investment. If Cerberus is not willing to save their own company via a cash injection, why should the public put their money at risk?
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #157 of 616
funny how congress has no business experience not one asked for a plan to address the 2k per vehicle disadvantage vs toyota, nissan , honda has...or a path to PROFITABILITY --but profit is such an evil concept.... so how are they going to make up the difference ??? bankrupcy would allow them to renegotiate all contracts, but congress doesn't want that....we will subsidize their rolling failure.. and of the three ford may survive but the others well maybe not.
i want a quality safe car that gets good mileage......that lasts longer than the payments.....oh what about resale value.....
rolling failure. chrysler didn't even address their massive quality issues....save the unions, get government control....guarnteed failure and cost overruns.
I APPLE THEREFORE I AM
Reply
I APPLE THEREFORE I AM
Reply
post #158 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

I'm in favor of any plan that gets rid of Chrysler and GM, and keeps Ford, Toyota and Honda alive.

I would be in favor of that. Ford needs a car that will get them there. Would it be the Fusion Hybrid?*

Quote:
The 2010 hybrid Fusion and Mercury Milan, its fraternal twin, build on Ford’s experience with the cute-ute Escape Hybrid but advance the technology by making it lighter, more powerful and more efficient. The two gas-electric mid-size sedans offer strong evidence that Ford is serious about building fuel-efficient vehicles, and they're one reason Ford's future isn't as bleak as those of General Motors and Chrysler.

I myself am looking at a Tango Electric Cruiser. Only because it can smoke a Tesla Roadster.

*UPDATE: I just saw this and it begs the question...where will Ford build them?
post #159 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

It seems inconsistent, in the current climate, that Congress is bickering and squabbling over loaning $30 billion to the automakers, mere chump change compared to the $6 trillion which has been extorted from the US taxpayers (or generated out of thin air) to prop up the financial industry (read "organized bankster crime cartel"), without any questions being asked... and furthermore, the Federal Reverse is keeping the details about that $multitrillion operation under wraps.

One thing from this laughable mess is crystal clear to me now.

Life is not about being an honest, decent, upright citizen. Its not about having morals, or caring for the collective. Its not about wanting to do the right thing.

Those in power teach you this from a very early age - but its only to serve one agenda.

It allows those who do not play by the rules of common decency to take advantage of those who do.

It must be clear to those who plan and scheme, that a natural balance will evolve.

The shit at the top who don't adhere to any form of decency - while preaching from the tops of their voices how important it is - knowing full well that this is a necessary part of the system that keeps them at the top in advantage.

The bottom scrapping around in the shit to put food on the table at the end of the day. Naively believing that being a honest decent person, makes up for the fact that at every turn, someone in power is fucking them over, while pretending to be their role model, and selling them the false dream, that anyone can make it.

SO, as for the car industry, American cars by and large are a laughing stock amongst the rest of the world. Its no suprise that the 'three' are on the brink - and its simply because their cars are shit and their management is shit.

Bear in mind that this American Auto problem has been exacerbated over the last few decades, by the oil lobby who have gone to great lengths to sell the public the notion that there is no such thing as Global Warming, who have fostered an army of bastard, scientifically illiterate, drones, eager to peddle thier nonsense like vultures around a rotting corpse, at the slightest mention of fuel efficiency.

Which in effect has propped up the manufacturers of these dinosaurs of motors, and allowed them to survive beyond their era. Sadly, the oil money propaganda and the legion of demented idiots prevented the natural adaptation to the conditions and the 'real' market, and quite amusingly, instead of sloe 'evolution' to adapt to the conditions of reality - we now have the situation where they are going to be wiped cleanly from the earth in a flood of disaster of Noahific proportions.

Which is somewhat justice for the vile kinds people who people who prop up these lobby groups telling lie after lie.

However, as sammy notes, what the car industry needs, is chump change compared to what has been given to 'far more vile people' at the top.

Keep a note, that when the minority 'top' falls - there is no limit on how much everyone has to pay- even against their will - to bail them out. But when it largely comes down to average workers needing a bail out - the very same people who will have to do years of manual hard work to pay for bailing out the 'top' - NOBODY wants to know. The consensus is, that you cant even have the chump change out of the bottom of the barrel.

And for that, that makes the vast middle classes, just as vile, greedy and selfish, as the shit floating at the top.
post #160 of 616
Ford just jizzed in their pants.

Great...it took a Limey to convince me to buy an American automobile....add a gun turret and a rocket launcher and I'd gladly support the bailout!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Auto Industry Bailout