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Auto Industry Bailout - Page 5

post #161 of 616
I love Top Gear. I just wish they'd do more like the British Leyland episode, the Botswana episode, or the one where Jeremy turned the car into an English cottage (with stone floor!) and then they went for a drive with the chairs and firewood all rolling around inside it.

That damned British Leyland episode cracks me up every time I watch it.
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post #162 of 616
Overall, they gave it a very good review, though the car is primarily built in Germany though...\
post #163 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Ford just jizzed in their pants.

Great...it took a Limey to convince me to buy an American automobile....add a gun turret and a rocket launcher and I'd gladly support the bailout!

The European cars aren't the same as the US ones. Is that car available in the US? The fiesta is not on the US webpage.

The video was awesome.
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post #164 of 616
I love Top Gear! Also Ford has for awhile now been way ahead of the other American companies as far as modernizing and innovation.
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post #165 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

The European cars aren't the same as the US ones. Is that car available in the US? The fiesta is not on the US webpage.

The video was awesome.

Here's an explanation. Sounds like it will come to america a little later.

This sounds logical to me as I was talking to a friend who went to Greece this summer. She said she saw all kinds of small american made cars over there that you don't see here. I'm guessing now you will.

http://autoshows.ford.com/221/2008/0...orld-premiere/
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post #166 of 616
Don't forget. The union gimmie "two fleet rule" helps reduce the big threes ability to move cars made in other countries into the american market.
post #167 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Don't forget. The union gimmie "two fleet rule" helps reduce the big threes ability to move cars made in other countries into the american market.

The "two fleet rule" has nothing to do with it. Since they could just as easily build those vehicles here, if they really wanted to. But they don't want to.

It's because most of those small foreign made American vehicles are diesel and the U.S. automakers claim that the average American customer won't buy a diesel vehicle.

Or so they claim.

But it's all really just an excuse to sell high margin SUV's here instead of lower margin (read somewhat less expensive) vehicles here.
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post #168 of 616
Now that the bailout failed to pass the senate what do you suppose will happen now?
I figure Bush will tap into the Wall Street bailout money.
I think bankruptcy is really the only viable option now that the UAW wouldn't budge on wage cuts.
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post #169 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo View Post

Now that the bailout failed to pass the senate what do you suppose will happen now?
I figure Bush will tap into the Wall Street bailout money.
I think bankruptcy is really the only viable option now that the UAW wouldn't budge on wage cuts.

TARP

Fuck the southeastern Republican dinosaurs.
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post #170 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

TARP

Fuck the southeastern Republican dinosaurs.

Isn't TARP only for financial institutions? Besides fucking the southeastern Republican dinosaurs, what do you think should be done?
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post #171 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo View Post

Isn't TARP only for financial institutions? Besides fucking the southeastern Republican dinosaurs, what do you think should be done?

TARP is the only option now.

Otherwise GM goes down, Chapter 11, followed closely by Chapter 7 (liquidation).

Chrysler would also be dust.

A major recession turns into a depression.

Then Ford goes down.

Then the entire domestic auto industry tanks.

A depression turns into a major depression.

The Great Depression, Part Deux.

The term Bushville is coined, and becomes the lexicon for the entire 21st century.

Change, change, got any change?
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post #172 of 616
What Happened

Quote:
A quick update from a knowledgeable source who works in that big building with the dome ...

Quote:
I don't think it'll be hard to explain why Senate Republicans had the final say: that's what the Constitution and Senate rules require. How else would we have passed anything?

I do think it'll be hard for Senate Republicans to explain themselves.

They were invited, repeatedly, to participate in more than a week of negotiations with a Republican White House. They declined.

They were asked to provide an alternative bill. They refused.

Finally, one of their members - Senator Corker of Tennessee - participated in a day-long negotiation with Senate Democrats, the UAW, and bondholders. Everyone made major concessions. Democrats gave up efficiency and emissions standards. UAW accepted major benefit cuts and agreed to reduce workers' wages. Bondholders signed off on a serious haircut. But when Senator Corker took the deal back to the Republican Conference, they argued for two hours and ultimately rejected it.

Why? Because they wanted the federal government to forcibly reduce the wages of American workers within the next 12 months.

Heard this morning that President Bush may still use TARP money to rescue the automakers. He reportedly doesn't want to end up as the next Hoover.

Whee, this is fun...\
post #173 of 616
I saw that this morning. I swear, these people are horrifying.
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post #174 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

TARP is the only option now.

Otherwise GM goes down, Chapter 11, followed closely by Chapter 7 (liquidation).

Chrysler would also be dust.

A major recession turns into a depression.

Then Ford goes down.

Then the entire domestic auto industry tanks.

A depression turns into a major depression.

The Great Depression, Part Deux.

Well that's taking a worst case scenario to a serious extreme.

Isn't it just as likely that Chapter 11, which exists to help companies to restructure, allows GM to drop the multiple nameplates, thousands of dealerships it doesn't need, and many of the other things that are weighing it down. And then the company might actually have a chance to succeed.
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post #175 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Well that's taking a worst case scenario to a serious extreme.

Isn't it just as likely that Chapter 11, which exists to help companies to restructure, allows GM to drop the multiple nameplates, thousands of dealerships it doesn't need, and many of the other things that are weighing it down. And then the company might actually have a chance to succeed.

Well that's the friggin' point, innit? We don't need to dump a few thousand unemployed people into a collapsing economy.
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post #176 of 616
The economy is collapsing because the proper decisions weren't taken when times were good.

The Execs and the Unions made out like bandits, the Government mandated everything but common sense products and the companies cashed in by making and selling ridiculous, wasteful products whilst their competitors kept their eye on the market.

No bailout can save Detroit from the reckoning they're about to face. Taxpayers would be better served by using the bailout billions to build proper transit and on education so North America can lead in the information economy.

The glorious age of the automobile is dead. Deal with it.
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post #177 of 616
Yeah, I'm not sure that "fuck'em" is the best fiscal policy at this point.

At this point, I'd just as soon nationalize the GM and Chrysler (Ford seems ok) to keep those jobs from vanishing.
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post #178 of 616
It's not about retribution, but the best use of billions in public money.

The automotive sector is going to shrink significantly no matter what. Even if you nationalize everything, you're still pouring billions into automotive facilities no one wants or needs.

What the opportunity cost? What grand vision could $30 billion dollars accomplish in education, science or health care that will be wasted on a legacy industry with virtually zero chance of even moderate renewal?
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post #179 of 616
That's not what it's about at all. It's about not dumping a few hundred thousand unemployed people onto a collapsing worldwide economy. That's the difference between Obama/Bush and the GOP in congress. If we don't deal with the immediate issue of keeping these jobs intact for the short term, there will be no long term.
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post #180 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

The "two fleet rule" has nothing to do with it. Since they could just as easily build those vehicles here, if they really wanted to. But they don't want to.

It's because most of those small foreign made American vehicles are diesel and the U.S. automakers claim that the average American customer won't buy a diesel vehicle.

Or so they claim.

But it's all really just an excuse to sell high margin SUV's here instead of lower margin (read somewhat less expensive) vehicles here.

Do you even know what you are talking about or are you completely making it up as you go along?
post #181 of 616
Jesus this is frightening. And some of the cavalier attitudes around here and in Congress is flabbergasting. This economy is standing on a ledge and all the senators from southern states with Nissan, Honda and Toyota plants in their states glimly waved their hands and said, "Meh."

WTF!?!?
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post #182 of 616
The current Republican Party does not give a flying fuck about the well-being of "America." They care about the well-being of the Republican Party. If the last eight years hasn't made that clear, than nothing ever will.

Opposing the bailout is all about breaking the unions. That simple. The unions represent a reliable Democratic demographic, so killing the unions hurts the Democrats. It it hurts the country as well, well, tough shit.

Same logic as denying us rational access to health care. The Republicans are terrified that the Democrats will usher in a popular program and that that will improve their electoral fortunes. Thus, no national health care can be allowed. Get a job, hippies.

Bad news for the right is, during really hard times being seen as the obstructionist party who wants to deny the party in power a "win", when said win is actually addressing the enormous problems facing the country, is probably not a great idea, hearts and minds wise.
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post #183 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Do you even know what you are talking about or are you completely making it up as you go along?

Actually, I do.

We've been there and done that already.

I would really like for someone here to challange me intellectually.

C'est la vie. \
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post #184 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

What the opportunity cost? What grand vision could $30 billion dollars accomplish in education, science or health care that will be wasted on a legacy industry with virtually zero chance of even moderate renewal?

About 3 weeks worth of Spreading Freedom and Democracy in Iraq.
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post #185 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

If we don't deal with the immediate issue of keeping these jobs intact for the short term, there will be no long term.

There's no long term for many of those jobs in any scenario. Here in Canada, we've bailed out automakers numerous times and the jobs still eventually disappeared. This will be no different.

I understand that a profound restructuring of the automotive sector will cause tremendous job loss, especially considering the impact on suppliers and other businesses. But there is no way around this, and pouring government money onto a business with a pour foundation is tremendously unwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

...this is frightening. And some of the cavalier attitudes around here and in Congress is flabbergasting. This economy is standing on a ledge and all the senators from southern states with Nissan, Honda and Toyota plants in their states glimly waved their hands and said, "Meh."

We all knew the auto sector was going to be hammered. Everyone on the left and right has been complaining about them for years, public transit and new urbanism are back in vogue and concerns about global warming have been shouted at every available microphone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Same logic as denying us rational access to health care. The Republicans are terrified that the Democrats will usher in a popular program and that that will improve their electoral fortunes. Thus, no national health care can be allowed. Get a job, hippies.

That's just it Adda. Instead of wasting 30 billion (for starters) on jobs we know will never come back, isn't it smarter to use the money in a more rational way that will offer hope for future prosperity?

Like maybe a small step toward a universal health care program? Aren't the liabilities from having to cover health costs of past and present employees a big reason GM is not competitive? Why not start down the road of fixing that for the American businesses that have a future? This bailing out of the banks, automakers and everybody with a business card and a pulse is about trying to preserve the past instead of aligning for the future.

Why are the people who are most afraid of change the same ones who voted for it?
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post #186 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

There's no long term for many of those jobs in any scenario. Here in Canada, we've bailed out automakers numerous times and the jobs still eventually disappeared. This will be no different.

I understand that a profound restructuring of the automotive sector will cause tremendous job loss, especially considering the impact on suppliers and other businesses. But there is no way around this, and pouring government money onto a business with a pour foundation is tremendously unwise.



We all knew the auto sector was going to be hammered. Everyone on the left and right has been complaining about them for years, public transit and new urbanism are back in vogue and concerns about global warming have been shouted at every available microphone.



That's just it Adda. Instead of wasting 30 billion (for starters) on jobs we know will never come back, isn't it smarter to use the money in a more rational way that will offer hope for future prosperity?

Like maybe a small step toward a universal health care program? Aren't the liabilities from having to cover health costs of past and present employees a big reason GM is not competitive? Why not start down the road of fixing that for the American businesses that have a future? This bailing out of the banks, automakers and everybody with a business card and a pulse is about trying to preserve the past instead of aligning for the future.

Why are the people who are most afraid of change the same ones who voted for it?

I guess the point being that the precipice of the worst economic downturn since the great depression doesn't seem like an expedient moment to go all hard ass on long term structural changes to the workforce.

And, as has been pointed out, 30 billions didn't seem like a lot of money, to some folks, when it came to pissing it away in Iraq.

Or, if you prefer, you could take the over 60 billion that we've spent on a non-functional and destabilizing missile defense system.

Isn't funny how the money only seems to loom large when we're talking about spending that might actually benefit working people?
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post #187 of 616
another $50 billion down the plughole

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7779442.stm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/robertpeston/

you really just have to laugh.
post #188 of 616
I think the war in Iraq has damaged American minds to the extent that 30 billion dollars is no longer viewed as a lot of money.

Just out of curiosity, what would it cost to start a new university in every state of the union?
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post #189 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post


Isn't funny how the money only seems to loom large when we're talking about spending that might actually benefit working people?

Im sure that when history looks back on this period, it will recognise the largest, most grandiose rape, pillaging and theft from the average citizen by the elite of the right-wing state there has ever been.

There is an infinite pot of money for the few, provided by the masses who will end up with nothing.

Its time to recognise, that those who have been touting freedom and democracy, have delivered us to unmerciful debt slavery and fascist communism.

It must piss off the wingers so much that they have been utterly duped, that they must maintain the charade at all costs to nullify the feeling of utter betrayal by their puppet masters.

It really is time to laugh. Things might be bad, but we knew there were going to be bad consequences of the actions we were forced to undertake. Thats why the entire history of PO has been filled with thread after thread for the last 8 years warning of the catastrophe of the right-wing agenda.

"Our president is lying to us in order to start a war".....
"Its all about the Oil...oily....oil..."

It goes on and on. We all know who rallied against the ignorant destruction of the western world and sought to make the world a better place - just as we all know who inadvertantly rallied for the ignorant destruction of the west in order to selfishly line their own pockets with gold.

Now here we are, all of us are utterly fucked in some way or another, but at least take some comfort in the fact that this feeling of utterly fucked doesn't come with the shame of being so utterly utterly on the wrong side of every issue.

It is poetic justice that GM, Chrysler, Ford have been killed by the oil lobby, fundies, and global warming sceptics.

I for one am glad of this. This auto industry problem sums it up perfectly. It may be true that GM, Chrystler, Ford have passed their natural life expectancy, BUT it is clearly showing that those on the right are quite happy to screw over, pillage and rape their own fellow Americans for a tiny amount of short term self gain - when all that is needed is nothing more than chump-change.

For them, money is all that matters, - even the chump change is worth more than 1 million FELLOW Americans being handed a lifeline - keeping thier jobs, their families, thier homes, their dignity, their humanity - INTACT for a short while while the problem is resolved.

For the right, the money is more important than a million FELLOW Americans - Then they'll turn around and tell them that Jesus loves them!

With that in mind, I cant say this economic disaster is such a bad thing. Perhaps it would be good, if everyone was wiped out, civilization went back 50 years, and a new mould was cast to build society.

- Because what has come to pass, is nothing but hoards of scavangers feeding off their own sick and dying.
post #190 of 616
I know I shouldn't bite, but I just have to hear it.


Mark, please elaborate on how the dreaded "fundies" have helped to kill GM, Chrysler and Ford.
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post #191 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

I think the war in Iraq has damaged American minds to the extent that 30 billion dollars is no longer viewed as a lot of money.

Just out of curiosity, what would it cost to start a new university in every state of the union?

Well, considering you can build a mega casino in Vegas for about $900M, I would venture that $500M would build one helluva a campus. So you could, theoretically, build one brand new state-of-the-art university in every state of the union for $25B.

But I'm sure there are a lot of Republicans out there who can't stand the idea of "intellectual professors" having more venues to spew their liberal ideology.

Short answer = will never happen.
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post #192 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

TARP is the only option now.

Otherwise GM goes down, Chapter 11, followed closely by Chapter 7 (liquidation).

I just don't buy it. Chapter 11 will have federal dip funding, and I don't think it will go to chapter 7, it will just convert the bondholders into stockholders and throw out the union contracts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Well that's the friggin' point, innit? We don't need to dump a few thousand unemployed people into a collapsing economy.

Those people will get laid off even if there is a bailout. People are just not buying cars - do you want those people to be paid just to twiddle their thumbs?
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post #193 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Well, considering you can build a mega casino in Vegas for about $900M, I would venture that $500M would build one helluva a campus. So you could, theoretically, build one brand new state-of-the-art university in every state of the union for $25B.

Build the universities instead. Take the extra 5 billion and offer the laid-off autoworkers free tuition.
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post #194 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

I know I shouldn't bite, but I just have to hear it.


Mark, please elaborate on how the dreaded "fundies" have helped to kill GM, Chrysler and Ford.

To me, that sounds like an admission that the oil lobby and the global warming sceptics have indeed killed off the American auto industry.

I, infact, wont bite, because the underlying truth uniting all these perverse schools of thought has been laid bare for everyone to see it in all its unabashed ugliness, that stating the obvious isn't necessary.
post #195 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Build the universities instead. Take the extra 5 billion and offer the laid-off autoworkers free tuition.

I say let's do it. But you know how government works. First they'll only approve $10M to do a "study" that will take about five years to complete. And then the economy will start rebounding and the "desire" to do it will fizzle because stocks are going up, up, up.

And the cycle starts anew.
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post #196 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

I think the war in Iraq has damaged American minds to the extent that 30 billion dollars is no longer viewed as a lot of money.

Just out of curiosity, what would it cost to start a new university in every state of the union?

And yet, small gummit types never seem to think about stuff like that when there's plenty of money to go around, or when it's time to start another war, or when some boondoggle defense budget item is on the chopping block, do they?

Then, it's all about cutting taxes and keeping America strong and making the world safe for democracy. And cutting taxes.

It's only when the shit hits the fan that we start hearing wistful thoughts about how a bunch of money might be better spent.

Have you ever been on these forums agitating against the horror of dropping 60 billion on an utterly worthless missile defense program?
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post #197 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Those people will get laid off even if there is a bailout. People are just not buying cars - do you want those people to be paid just to twiddle their thumbs?


As opposed to giving hundreds of billions to thoroughly dishonest, cheating, scamming, incompetant fools to do nothing - and having them hoard the bail out money provided by taxpayers - so that they dont themselves go under - at the expense of the jobs of millions of honest hardworking average americans.

I think the least you could do, is look after your own honest, decent, hardworking citizens for the short term, until a viable escape strategy is formulated, even if the long term solution is the closure of all three.

Hasn't anyone yet realised, that the amount of money put into the system by tax payers across the entire world is of an order of magnitute larger than the money supposedly lost by the foolish banking wankers. So why is there still a problem???
post #198 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

I just don't buy it. Chapter 11 will have federal dip funding, and I don't think it will go to chapter 7, it will just convert the bondholders into stockholders and throw out the union contracts.



Those people will get laid off even if there is a bailout. People are just not buying cars - do you want those people to be paid just to twiddle their thumbs?

Sure. We should let the employment rate rise to double digits, because the idea of people getting paid who aren't doing much work is morally abhorrent.

A depression is God's way of focusing the national attention on thrift. Although, I have a feeling that some of the folks on these boards that imagine they can afford to ride it out in relative comfort might have a change of heart if they had to spend some time in a fucking refugee camp.

See you on the bread line, brother, we can talk about government intervention there.
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post #199 of 616
Hey, I've got a marvelous idea.

Let's do absolutely nothing.

No more bailouts.

Not for the domestic auto industry.

Don't fund the 2nd $350 billion tranche for the financial markets.

Lower the FDIC cap from $250K to $0.25.

Forgo the Obama stimulus package entirely.

Furlough the entire federal workforce (including the military) from March 7th onward.

Eliminate unemployment compensation completely.

Eliminate Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and Supplemental Security incomes permanently.

Eliminate welfare checks entirely.

Eliminate the food stamp program.

Do all of the above, and send everyone to school, that way when they graduate, they'll be thrown out on the streets to fend for themselves, or live off the land, as it were.

What do you all think?

We'd have a budget surplus of like $0.25 for the next decade or two.

Sounds like a real weiner to me!
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post #200 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Sure. We should let the employment rate rise to double digits, because the idea of people getting paid who aren't doing much work is morally abhorrent.

A depression is God's way of focusing the national attention on thrift. Although, I have a feeling that some of the folks on these boards that imagine they can afford to ride it out in relative comfort might have a change of heart if they had to spend some time in a fucking refugee camp.

See you on the bread line, brother, we can talk about government intervention there.

And bread lines are what I fear a LOT of us might be standing in soon.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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