or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Auto Industry Bailout
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Auto Industry Bailout - Page 9

post #321 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Frank's point was that Chapter 11 will allow the auto industry to fuck over large numbers of people by simply saying "We're not gonna pay you." And that, I hope we can all agree, would be very not good.

No, I don't agree. Because it is you and I that have to pay those bills, the auto companies don't have any money to pay the bills (hence chapter 11). Why should I have to pay them?

A lot of those debts were bought for pennies on the dollar on the bond market, because the risk of bankruptcy drove them down. So then you and I have to donate money to provide a massive capital gain to the people who bought the bonds. How is that right?

What Barny frank is proposing is "Lets screw over a bunch of people (the taxpayers) to save people who made risky bets in the bond market and lost"... And that, I hope we can all agree, would be very not good.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #322 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

No, I don't agree. Because it is you and I that have to pay those bills, the auto companies don't have any money to pay the bills (hence chapter 11). Why should I have to pay them?

A lot of those debts were bought for pennies on the dollar on the bond market, because the risk of bankruptcy drove them down. So then you and I have to donate money to provide a massive capital gain to the people who bought the bonds. How is that right?

What Barny frank is proposing is "Lets screw over a bunch of people (the taxpayers) to save people who made risky bets in the bond market and lost"... And that, I hope we can all agree, would be very not good.

Hey guess what?

Even if everything you have stated in this thread were true, which of course it is not, since it's your own $0.02, I could really care less.

Because my $0.02 thinks otherwise.

So there.

You and I are not paying for this. Ever. Because at some future date we will just burn the books, start over, and nationalize everything.

I know it will never come directly out of my pocket. And that is a good thing.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
post #323 of 616
Let me get this straight: you think it is better to let the auto industry go into Chapter 11 and potentially hose a large sector of the market by simply refusing to pay monies owed (to workers, to suppliers, to dealers, to god knows who else)?

If that's the case, there's no real point in discussing anymore.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #324 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Let me get this straight: you think it is better to let the auto industry go into Chapter 11 and potentially hose a large sector of the market by simply refusing to pay monies owed (to workers, to suppliers, to dealers, to god knows who else)?

No - I really wish that you had read my original post that started this thread. You are putting words in my mouth without actually reading what I have posted many times over. This thread is like a tag team where I have the exact same argument with 20 people in a row, with no information transfer from one person to the next.

Chapter 11 -

stockholders get wiped, common and preferred both.
bondholders get converted to stockholders
union contracts are wiped
dealer contracts are wiped
accounts receivable and accounts payable stay with the company and are paid by the federally funded dip loan.
dip fund includes trust fund for warranted work on cars, to make sure people are not afraid to buy from GM.

No suppliers are harmed. Plenty of dealers are harmed, but they have to be, as GM has to shed 3000 dealerships to be competitive. The majority of the debt is in bonds, and once those are gone GM will have the cash flow to survive - no federal bailout needed (except for the dip loan, which is paid back before they exit chapter 11).

If Bush has half a brain, his "bailout" from the TARP will be this chapter 11 dip fund, and GM will go into chapter 11 in early January.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #325 of 616
Hey as a side note I was talking to one of the guys I know that works for an auto company. Union guy. He putting in 75-80 hours a week. Some days he makes $1000.
post #326 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Hey as a side note I was talking to one of the guys I know that works for an auto company. Union guy. He putting in 75-80 hours a week. Some days he makes $1000.

Awesome, hopefully he buys lots of Apple products and bumps up the stock price.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #327 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

No - I really wish that you had read my original post that started this thread. You are putting words in my mouth without actually reading what I have posted many times over. This thread is like a tag team where I have the exact same argument with 20 people in a row, with no information transfer from one person to the next.

I think this is a very succinct summatation of the problems here recently. People aren't having a discussion, they are creating a caricature and addressing that. They put the words in your mouth to create the caricature, then dismiss you because, obviously your an idiot to say such things even when you didn't.

People are repeating the talking points and have given up thinking. It has become hilarious to me because when I post, it is a "new meme from the right" even though some issues, like the boomers, are something I'm pretty sure only is being brought up by me with regard to politics. Yet if it is a "new right-wing talking point about their new meme they are pushing" it can just be dismissed without a thought and never addressed.

The historical issues that are making it impossible for the auto makers to turn a profit aren't just a talking point. You aren't a cartoon for bringing them up. Yet as you noted the entire modus operandi of anyone who wants to disagree is to address your intent, turn you into a caricature and then dismiss you. You're just a greedy bastard who wants oil companies to rule the planet while they burn it into ashes. So screw your points.

See what I mean!

I'm pretty sure John Stewart would ask them to stop hurting America.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #328 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I think this is a very succinct summatation of the problems here recently. People aren't having a discussion, they are creating a caricature and addressing that. They put the words in your mouth to create the caricature, then dismiss you because, obviously your an idiot to say such things even when you didn't.

People are repeating the talking points and have given up thinking. It has become hilarious to me because when I post, it is a "new meme from the right" even though some issues, like the boomers, are something I'm pretty sure only is being brought up by me with regard to politics. Yet if it is a "new right-wing talking point about their new meme they are pushing" it can just be dismissed without a thought and never addressed.

The historical issues that are making it impossible for the auto makers to turn a profit aren't just a talking point. You aren't a cartoon for bringing them up. Yet as you noted the entire modus operandi of anyone who wants to disagree is to address your intent, turn you into a caricature and then dismiss you. You're just a greedy bastard who wants oil companies to rule the planet while they burn it into ashes. So screw your points.

See what I mean!

I'm pretty sure Jon Stewart would ask them to stop hurting America.

Nice rant.

Back on topic though.

So exactly how many people would lose their jobs, union, dealership, and distributors combined?

Since dealerships would be closed, and union contracts would be torn up.

Just curious.

Also, if in fact the Bush administration actually does something, in terms of a bridge loan, how does that salient fact buttress enumbers basic argument.

Since people who would consider themselves to be SME came to a completely different conclusion as to what to do, than enumbers does.

Just curious.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
post #329 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman
I think this is a very succinct summatation of the problems here recently. People aren't having a discussion, they are creating a caricature and addressing that. They put the words in your mouth to create the caricature, then dismiss you because, obviously your an idiot to say such things even when you didn't.

People are repeating the talking points and have given up thinking. It has become hilarious to me because when I post, it is a "new meme from the right" even though some issues, like the boomers, are something I'm pretty sure only is being brought up by me with regard to politics. Yet if it is a "new right-wing talking point about their new meme they are pushing" it can just be dismissed without a thought and never addressed.

The historical issues that are making it impossible for the auto makers to turn a profit aren't just a talking point. You aren't a cartoon for bringing them up. Yet as you noted the entire modus operandi of anyone who wants to disagree is to address your intent, turn you into a caricature and then dismiss you. You're just a greedy bastard who wants oil companies to rule the planet while they burn it into ashes. So screw your points.

See what I mean!

I'm pretty sure Jon Stewart would ask them to stop hurting America.

Congrats on decrying responding to posts with caricatures of people's positions by caricaturing people's responses.

Once our snake has entirely eaten its tail, perhaps we will be free-- albeit rendered mute.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #330 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Nice rant.

Back on topic though.

So exactly how many people would lose their jobs, union, dealership, and distributors combined?

Since dealerships would be closed, and union contracts would be torn up.

Just curious.

It has been estimated that GM has twice as many dealerships as it needs. So that's a start.

Since I live close to an intersection that has a huge Chevrolet dealership directly opposite a huge Pontiac dealership, I'm inclined to agree.

But no, let's bail them out and keep duplicating things for job creation. That will help North America.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
post #331 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

So exactly how many people would lose their jobs, union, dealership, and distributors combined?

I'm pretty sure that this is one of midwinters logic errors, since these layoffs will occur weather or not there is a bailout. It is a sad fact that the auto industry went from 18 million cars down to a projected 7 million cars, which is the source of the layoffs.

You are implying that these layoffs will not occur if the bailout happens, which is dead wrong. The layoffs would probably be less severe with chapter 11, since the debt burden of the companies would be converted in part to common stock, giving GM more breathing room to reduce staffing gradually.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #332 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

It has been estimated that GM has twice as many dealerships as it needs. So that's a start.

Since I live close to an intersection that has a huge Chevrolet dealership directly opposite a huge Pontiac dealership, I'm inclined to agree.

But no, let's bail them out and keep duplicating things for job creation. That will help North America.



I'll repeat this again. The thing that economists sight as the difference between this econmomic downturn and the great depression is unemployment at this point was already at 25%. If the big 3 go under what do you think that will do to the figures? All of those jobs and their suppliers? They have to be conditionally bailed out. Otherwise if you think we have a mess now......

We could start to recover in 6 months to a year based on the decisions we make now. If they're the wrong decisions it could take 10 or more.

I don't like the way they have done business either but this question : Should we or shouldn't we is a no brainer.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #333 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I don't like the way they have done business either but this question : Should we or shouldn't we is a no brainer.

No, it isn't. The problem is that you don't understand bankruptcy, which is why you have this black/white "alive"/"go under" thing going on. I'm out of here - too many times posting the same counter argument for people who can't be bothered to read the thread.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #334 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

No, it isn't. The problem is that you don't understand bankruptcy, which is why you have this black/white "alive"/"go under" thing going on. I'm out of here - too many times posting the same counter argument for people who can't be bothered to read the thread.


If GM files what do you think that would do for their business? So it's basically the same.

Here's an interesting breakdown.

http://www.economicpopulist.org/?q=c...yment-michigan
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #335 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

If GM files what do you think that would do for their business? So it's basically the same.

Here's an interesting breakdown.

http://www.economicpopulist.org/?q=c...yment-michigan

You dont get it, unemployment is GOOD! Destroying peoples lives is GOOD. - - - It primes them for Jesus. We will build our fundie army, and then we will be back...

Heil Palin
post #336 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Hey as a side note I was talking to one of the guys I know that works for an auto company. Union guy. He putting in 75-80 hours a week. Some days he makes $1000.

That's a LOT of hours to work in a week.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #337 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

That's a LOT of hours to work in a week.

He'll take a buyout as soon as they offer it. Or I should say as soon as his union allows the company to offer it.
post #338 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

I'm pretty sure that this is one of midwinters logic errors, since these layoffs will occur weather or not there is a bailout. It is a sad fact that the auto industry went from 18 million cars down to a projected 7 million cars, which is the source of the layoffs.

You are implying that these layoffs will not occur if the bailout happens, which is dead wrong. The layoffs would probably be less severe with chapter 11, since the debt burden of the companies would be converted in part to common stock, giving GM more breathing room to reduce staffing gradually.

And this deep insightful analysis is based on ...

Your opinion. Thanks, but no thanks.

Logic errors implies that there is some objective criteria upon which to judge or test the logic appropriately.

That's been my basic point from the get go.

Because you say something is so, does not, in fact, make it so.

And as such, it is my opinion that the workforce would free fall under Chapter 11, perhaps losing as many as 1.5 million additional jobs in less than a 12-month period.

Note that there has been an economic downturn for the past 12-months, thus the reduction from XX million to YY million, all auto sales are down from all makers, foreign or domestic, worldwide;

Quote:
The automotive industry crisis of 2008 occurred mainly as a result of the global financial crisis and the related credit crunch. In the United States, other contributing factors were pricing pressures on raw materials and substantially more expensive automobile fuels which, in particular, caused customers to turn away from large vehicles such as SUVs.

NOTE: You go from a statement of "dead wrong" to a statement of "probably" please explain your certainty for the first statement in light of your second statement of uncertainty.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
post #339 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

That will help North America.

Yes it would.

Thanks for noting the obvious though.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
post #340 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

No - I really wish that you had read my original post that started this thread. You are putting words in my mouth without actually reading what I have posted many times over. This thread is like a tag team where I have the exact same argument with 20 people in a row, with no information transfer from one person to the next.

Chapter 11 -

stockholders get wiped, common and preferred both.
bondholders get converted to stockholders
union contracts are wiped
dealer contracts are wiped
accounts receivable and accounts payable stay with the company and are paid by the federally funded dip loan.
dip fund includes trust fund for warranted work on cars, to make sure people are not afraid to buy from GM.

No suppliers are harmed. Plenty of dealers are harmed, but they have to be, as GM has to shed 3000 dealerships to be competitive. The majority of the debt is in bonds, and once those are gone GM will have the cash flow to survive - no federal bailout needed (except for the dip loan, which is paid back before they exit chapter 11).

If Bush has half a brain, his "bailout" from the TARP will be this chapter 11 dip fund, and GM will go into chapter 11 in early January.

I don't actually think there's all that much difference in what we all want or what we all think the eventual outcome will be, when it comes down to it. This auto industry is going to collapse and either be much smaller or disappear altogether.

The difference here is that folks like me would like to see this contraction happen gradually and at a deferred date--as late as a year from now, if it needs to be.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #341 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

He'll take a buyout as soon as they offer it. Or I should say as soon as his union allows the company to offer it.

It's good to see that someone who is dedicated to his job and willing to put an incredible amount of time into it is getting paid for it. Those are the principles my dad taught me. That's what my school education promised me if I worked similarly as hard. You know, work hard, rise up the ranks, get paid enough to buy a house and put your kids through college.

The American way.

I'm assuming he's a foreman or manager at this point. 80 hours a week yields $260k a year, gross. So, if he worked only 40 hours a week he'd be in the $130k a year range. Sounds about right for someone who's dedicated the better part of their life to a company.

I'm not sure exactly what your beef is with your friends salary, though.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #342 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

It's good to see that someone who is dedicated to his job and willing to put an incredible amount of time into it is getting paid for it. Those are the principles my dad taught me. That's what my school education promised me if I worked similarly as hard. You know, work hard, rise up the ranks, get paid enough to buy a house and put your kids through college.

The American way.

I'm assuming he's a foreman or manager at this point. 80 hours a week yields $260k a year, gross. So, if he worked only 40 hours a week he'd be in the $130k a year range. Sounds about right for someone who's dedicated the better part of their life to a company.

I'm not sure exactly what your beef is with your friends salary, though.

Overtime is 1.5X on those days above 8 hours (say 4 hours M-F), 1.5X for 12 hours on Saturday, and 2X for 12 hours on Sunday.

Usually overtime hours come under lower overhead rates, thus the net hourly compensation drops below the regular hourly compensation, and it's cheaper to the company to have their people work overtime overall.

At least that's how it works in the federal government.

Therefore, $1000/(2*12) = $41.67/hour.

So for a 2080 hour year with no overtime, $41.67 * 2080 = $86.7K/year.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
post #343 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Overtime is 1.5X on those days above 8 hours (say 4 hours M-F), 1.5X for 12 hours on Saturday, and 2X for 12 hours on Sunday.

Usually overtime hours come under lower overhead rates, thus the net hourly compensation drops below the regular hourly compensation, and it's cheaper to the company to have their people work overtime overall.

At least that's how it works in the federal government.

Therefore, $1000/(2*12) = $41.67/hour.

So for a 2080 hour year with no overtime, $41.67 * 2080 = $86.7K/year.

Damn unions.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #344 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I'll repeat this again. The thing that economists sight as the difference between this econmomic downturn and the great depression is unemployment at this point was already at 25%.

I presume you're talking about this comment:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

One of the things economists have said about this recession is that it's not " The great depression " when unemployment was 25 %. No not a pretty picture at all. Something has to be done. It just can't be unconditional.

Repeating nonsense twice doesn't make it true. Just for fun, can you find me a quote from economists stating that the difference in unemployment figures is the main difference between the Depression and the current recession?

You make a big deal about being old, so you should be well aware that our economy functions quite differently from the one in 1929. There are plenty of places in the world today that have unemployment figures over 25% and the apocalypse has not arrived.

What is cause for concern is when a financial crisis hits countries across the planet and two of the world's most developed countries pour billions into saving an industry that cannot and should not be saved.

The funds used to do this nonsense will be diverted away from investing in industries that actually have a chance of paying off big in the future. Our children's futures are being mortgaged to pay their parents credit card bills. This is perhaps unsurprising, given our society's penchant for overspending. But it is no less wrong.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
post #345 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

I presume you're talking about this comment:



Repeating nonsense twice doesn't make it true. Just for fun, can you find me a quote from economists stating that the difference in unemployment figures is the main difference between the Depression and the current recession?

You make a big deal about being old, so you should be well aware that our economy functions quite differently from the one in 1929. There are plenty of places in the world today that have unemployment figures over 25% and the apocalypse has not arrived.

What is cause for concern is when a financial crisis hits countries across the planet and two of the world's most developed countries pour billions into saving an industry that cannot and should not be saved.

The funds used to do this nonsense will be diverted away from investing in industries that actually have a chance of paying off big in the future. Our children's futures are being mortgaged to pay their parents credit card bills. This is perhaps unsurprising, given our society's penchant for overspending. But it is no less wrong.

http://www.slate.com/id/2201249/?from=rss

http://useconomy.about.com/od/grossd...Depression.htm

No right off the cuff I couldn't find you a direct quote. I do remember hearing it though.


Do you really believe that if the big 3 go under it wouldn't put millions more people out of work? What effect do you think that would have on our already damaged economy. Also what kind of car do you drive? If it's american made then the price of parts would shoot up to the moon. Really honestly we can have a bad recession or we can make decisions that will directly make it many times worse.

Even a average person can see this. The big 3, their suppliers, parts, everything connected would be affected. Millions more would be out there looking for work.

Shake well!

Now maybe you're sitting pretty with no worries about this but I think this kind of diaster would affect everyone.

I'll ignore the age thing as I have been trying with others.

Your last sentence makes you sound like a cheerleader for Trumptman's Boom theory.

I care about the future generations however we're really in bad straights here.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #346 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

If Bush has half a brain, his "bailout" from the TARP will be this chapter 11 dip fund, and GM will go into chapter 11 in early January.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Bush-c...-13868234.html

"Bush considering orderly bankruptcy"

Looks like he does have half a brain. And if this goes well, you can bet I will be back to say "I told you so" to all of you. We won't have chaos, although we will have massive layoffs - the layoffs that are necessary with or without a bailout, because the auto industry is selling fewer cars, we need fewer people making cars. Orderly bankruptcy - that is what I have been asking for since post 1 in this thread, it makes the whole process more legal, as the bailout bill that failed was pretty iffy wrt contract law (forcing bondholder losses without consent, putting US taxpayers ahead of existing debtors, etc).

Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Hypothetically speaking, if there are essentially only two outcomes, one where unemployment reaches 10%, and the other where unemployment reaches 20%, and if we had "some" foreknowledge of these two outcomes, which one would you choose?

Do you still stand behind this prediction of 20% unemployment when pushes GM into bankruptcy? I think it will be less than 10% even with the bankruptcy, and that the bankruptcy will be good for the country in the long run.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #347 of 616
I just read an article about Chrysler. The article said another big part of the problem with the Big 3 is that people can't seem to get financing. People are still going to the dealerships hoping to get a good deal on a car right now. But the dealerships can't close the deals because none of the banks are lending money.

So, it's not entirely the Big 3's problem. Wall Street and the banks, greedy beyond belief, imploded and now no one (other than those with perfect credit or those who don't really need financing) can't get a car loan.

I suppose this is going to affect more than people shopping for cars. What about those who rely on financing to buy their next MacBook? Or that student loan? Or that business loan for new equipment?
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #348 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

So, it's not entirely the Big 3's problem. Wall Street and the banks, greedy beyond belief, imploded and now no one (other than those with perfect credit or those who don't really need financing) can't get a car loan.

When you structure your business so that it can be destroyed by downturns like this, then it is your problem when you fail. The credit crunch caused the problem, but Toyota does not seem to be going out of business because they are a healthier company with a healthier balance sheet.

When GM and Chrysler exit chapter 11, they will have very good credit, because they will have no debt left - they will be able to finance loans for people who want to buy cars. Also - SUVs like Jeeps are no longer being accepted as re-sellable or as trade ins, so nobody will give loans for those cars, too risky.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #349 of 616
Yeah, I don't see the credit crunch as being a big obstacle here.
The big three all have their own in-house financing operations, which has been the case for years.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
post #350 of 616
If Honda, Toyota and Nissan were so healthy then why are they offering HUGE rebates, promotions and price reductions right now?

I walked into an Audi dealership last week looking at a Q7 and I asked about leasing and they pretty much laughed. "Leasing?" they said. "Those days over over."
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #351 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

If Honda, Toyota and Nissan were so healthy then why are they offering HUGE rebates, promotions and price reductions right now?

I walked into an Audi dealership last week looking at a Q7 and I asked about leasing and they pretty much laughed. "Leasing?" they said. "Those days over over."

Because the industry is contracting. As was said previously (by someone else) it's moving from 18 million cars sold annually to something less than half that.

All automakers are being affected by this. But the Japanese automakers have long kept their eye on the bottom line. They made smaller cars, held down wage costs and so are in overall better shape to weather this transition.

Regarding leasing, I suspect it will move back to the business realm where it still has significant advantages. Leasing a car for personal use has always been a silly thing to do.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
post #352 of 616
Sorry, it's all moving so fast I'm having trouble keeping up: when did conservatives become giant internationalist fuck America if it can't compete it deserves to die cheerleaders, again?
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #353 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Sorry, it's all moving so fast I'm having trouble keeping up: when did conservatives become giant internationalist fuck America if it can't compete it deserves to die cheerleaders, again?

I'm not a conservative, I don't think, since I am an extreme social liberal - and it isn't America that deserves to die, it is GM. GM != America.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #354 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Sorry, it's all moving so fast I'm having trouble keeping up: when did conservatives become giant internationalist fuck America if it can't compete it deserves to die cheerleaders, again?

These are the same people that would tell you don't tell me what to drive, TYVM.

They like their's big and fast and very low on the MPG scale. They want their SUV.

They want it built in America by an American automaker, TYVM.

What will the NASCAR circuit look like next year?

Honda, Nissan, and Toyota will be the new look of NASCAR.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
post #355 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

I'm not a conservative, I don't think, since I am an extreme social liberal - and it isn't America that deserves to die, it is GM. GM != America.

Maybe not, but GM certainly is a huge employer of Americans, and the locus of a hefty percentage of America's remaining manufacturing capacity.

I don't believe such an enormous institution, so heavily threaded into the fabric of American life, can be excised and told to go fuck itself, without a fairly hefty dose of contempt for the country and people that gave rise to it.

And what's next? Should any American industry that fails to compete in global waters be given the old heave ho? Maybe we can set up Chinese sweatshops and pay "competitive" wages for the folks so deprived of employment? Would that satisfy the steely resolve of the Randians?

I just don't quite understand how the same folks that used to tell us that America was great because of its robust middle class and opportunities and working people and who drove around in Chevy pickups with "Buy American" bumper stickers have come round to seemingly sort of hating those things-- at least, hating the idea that there might remain any working people with any say over their own destiny beyond clawing it out in some kind of free market hell world, where being unemployed and without medical insurance is just Your Own Damn Fault, loser, so hurry up and die, already.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #356 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

I don't believe such an enormous institution, so heavily threaded into the fabric of American life, can be excised and told to go fuck itself, without a fairly hefty dose of contempt for the country and people that gave rise to it.

Exactly how crappy do its products need to get, and how big do its losses need to get, before you would consider bankruptcy? If they were losing $100 billion per year every year for 10 years, and you had to pay extra taxes to fund them, would you consider bankruptcy?

Keeping alive diseased companies is not good for the country. The workers and capital that get freed up will move to other industries, and produce things that the country needs instead of things we don't need.

and franskagent - stop stereotyping me, and answer the question I posted on the last page. I have never watched Nascar, and I drive only Volvos.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #357 of 616
The writing here has been on the wall for a long time.

When a company gets official status from the government (actually TWO governments) that it's "too big to fail", it's almost a sure thing that it is heading headfirst into failure.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
post #358 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Maybe not, but GM certainly is a huge employer of Americans, and the locus of a hefty percentage of America's remaining manufacturing capacity.

This is a big part of the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

I don't believe such an enormous institution, so heavily threaded into the fabric of American life, can be excised and told to go f-- itself, without a fairly hefty dose of contempt for the country and people that gave rise to it.

When did liberals start playing the patriotism card? This thread is all over the place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

And what's next? Should any American industry that fails to compete in global waters be given the old heave ho? Maybe we can set up Chinese sweatshops and pay "competitive" wages for the folks so deprived of employment?

The American system has been to ensure that American businesspeople can compete fairly in as open an environment as possible. Are the foreigners here cheating in some way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

I just don't quite understand how the same folks that used to tell us that America was great because of its robust middle class and opportunities and working people and who drove around in Chevy pickups with "Buy American" bumper stickers have come round to seemingly sort of hating those things-- at least, hating the idea that there might remain any working people with any say over their own destiny beyond clawing it out in some kind of free market hell world, where being unemployed and without medical insurance is just Your Own Damn Fault, loser, so hurry up and die, already.

Of course, nobody but that voice in your head is saying that. What some of us conservatives are saying is that GM is a legacy player that is too big, bulky and expensive a ship to be turned around.

The phone system got better when Ma Bell got broken up. If GM goes into bankruptcy and gets some corporate liposuction around the waist, it may emerge from the effort split up into two or three smaller, nimble units that can actually beat Honda and Toyota into the ground.

When a business goes into restructuring, the factories aren't burned to the ground. The tools don't get melted. The employees don't suddenly forget their skills. All that stuff will remain, and the best will get picked up and rebuilt into a North American auto industry that is greener, smarter and better.

I know it is easier to try to write a big cheque and make the problem go away. That's how our society deals with problems. But the better course of action here is to do the hard work, trim the fat and let Detroit (or perhaps Silicon Valley) innovate this industry back to life.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
post #359 of 616
Thread Starter 
Crap! It was just a ploy by the president to force concessions. Still - it is almost a bankruptcy, with the debt for equity swap and the "renegotiate union wages and benefits or we pull the funding and force you into BK".
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #360 of 616
Has anyone here seen the average income of those working in the securities sector? Has anyone compared those salaries in comparison to the size of the bailout?

And we're bitching about the UAW?

Please. Republicans don't give two shits about auto worker salaries. They want to destroy the unions. Period.

Has anyone asked themselves this simple question: If you're the leader of a union and you know the Federal government is conspiring the crush you, what do you do? Do you capitulate or do you fight back?
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Auto Industry Bailout