or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Auto Industry Bailout
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Auto Industry Bailout - Page 2

post #41 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Link? Specifically a UAW link.

I've already provided a bona fide link stating that $14/hour for production line UAW workers is just not so.

It's sad but true - $14 an hour for new production line workers with no retirement or health benefits. I appologize to you that I currently don't know how to parse links (+ I'm on my slow lagging typing iPhone ) try googling it sadly that's what's happening.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
post #42 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

HERE'S AN IDEA!

Why doesn't BIG OIL bail out the automotive industry? The reason GM, Ford, and Chrysler have refused to make innovative and efficient vehicles is because of their marriage with Exxon et al. It's obvious to everyone that Big Oil killed the EV1. And once all those cars got sent to rot in the deserts of Arizona, the automotive industry said, "screw it, let's build gas guzzling SUVs."

So. Isn't it in Big Oil's interest to keep GM, Ford and Chrysler in the business of making gas guzzlers? So let them spend, what, one quarter's profits (??) and bail them out.

True. Since it is in their best interest, they should step up to the plate with a large interest free loan. They did report record profits recently. On the other hand, i would hate for the automakers to be any more in the pocket of the oil companies.
post #43 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

It's sad but true - $14 an hour for new production line workers with no retirement or health benefits. I appologize to you that I currently don't know how to parse links (+ I'm on my slow lagging typing iPhone ) try googling it sadly that's what's happening.

No, that is NOT what's happening.

Some GM jobs called 'non-core'

Quote:
GM takes different approach

GM took a different approach than Ford Motor Co., which agreed with the UAW that 20 percent of factory jobs would fall into the second-tier wages, regardless of job description. GM chose to set wages based on job descriptions to avoid divisiveness that could arise between workers who have the same job but make dramatically different wages.

But the approach resulted in months of hard bargaining between GM and the UAW as the sides haggled over which jobs would fall into each category. GM estimated about 16,000 U.S. factory jobs would eventually be designated as non-core assignments.

In the end, the two sides agreed to a mixed approach. Until 2012, senior workers can bid on non-core jobs and keep their salary, and new hires who would have been assigned to those duties will be sent to the line at the lower wage level, according to UAW local presidents and sources familiar with the deal. After 2012, the wage rate will be divided strictly by the type of job.

Workers at the lower wage have the opportunity to work into core jobs at the higher pay rate, though they'll never be eligible for the lifetime medical benefit and pension plan prized by today's workers. Instead, they'll receive payments into 401(k) accounts.

You can say $14.00/hour until your face turns blue, it doesn't matter, it's not the standard starting wage for most new hires.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
post #44 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Link? Specifically a UAW link.

I've already provided a bona fide link stating that $14/hour for production line UAW workers is just not so.

I don't know how to parse linkhttp://autoobserver.com/2008/02/help...4-an-hour.html Maybe this will work if not try googling $14 an hour auto workers michelle krebs auto observer edmonds help wanted production line
or variants of that. There are other sources you might find more reliable you should be able to find.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
post #45 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I don't know how to parse linkhttp://autoobserver.com/2008/02/help...4-an-hour.html Maybe this will work if not try googling $14 an hour auto workers michelle krebs auto observer edmonds help wanted production line
or variants of that. There are other sources you might find more reliable you should be able to find.

I saw that link already, the headline is grossly misleading.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
post #46 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

No way - time to put the brand back on!

Your foolish not to see that America's future is dependent on these large businesses to compete globally. Throwing them out to avoid investing in new technologies is a bad idea and that and votes is what the repubs are after. Real government investment in the auto industry, and without exception the American auto industry, is set to be the best government investment of all time in the US. That is what small businesses and large businesses need.

I'd rather see a dozen new smart, creative and customer-centric car companies than keep a few of the current dinosaurs on life support.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

 

Get the lowdown on the coming collapse:  http://www.cbo.gov/publication/45010

Reply

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

 

Get the lowdown on the coming collapse:  http://www.cbo.gov/publication/45010

Reply
post #47 of 616
One problem though is that they all share parts. So if GM sales tank then the part suppliers will tank (they are all doing badly). and Ford and Chrysler will have their parts suppliers go under and then Ford and Chrysler will tank. There's a bit of a house of cards there.
post #48 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

I saw that link already, the headline is grossly misleading.

The article clearly states what's happening. New production line workers getting $14 an hour and working harder to earn it than the old rate workers, which was about double the amount and came with retirement and health care benefits. These are UAW negotiated.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
post #49 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

I'd rather see a dozen new smart, creative and customer-centric car companies than keep a few of the current dinosaurs on life support.

Sounds good, but unless the US has big players in the game, those new companies will be foreign owned and the US will suffer from weaker tech growth and an increased vulnerabilty.
The US invented the first off road vehicle (plenty rolled over) but Jeep led the way. America badly needs this big companies and it needs to get them up to speed.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
post #50 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

An honest question: who makes our military vehicles?

If we lose our big three then let's all hope no-one shoots our horses.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
post #51 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The article clearly states what's happening. New production line workers getting $14 an hour and working harder to earn it than the old rate workers, which was about double the amount and came with retirement and health care benefits. These are UAW negotiated.

The article you linked to is grossly misleading and doesn't present all the facts as can be found at many other websites, as for instance the links I've presented already.

Repeating something over and over again does not make it so.

This reply is not meant for a reply from you, but is meant to inform others here, as it states the actual facts of the matter.

Most people are capable of reading past a gotcha headline. \
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
post #52 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

HERE'S AN IDEA!

Why doesn't BIG OIL bail out the automotive industry? The reason GM, Ford, and Chrysler have refused to make innovative and efficient vehicles is because of their marriage with Exxon et al. It's obvious to everyone that Big Oil killed the EV1. And once all those cars got sent to rot in the deserts of Arizona, the automotive industry said, "screw it, let's build gas guzzling SUVs."

So. Isn't it in Big Oil's interest to keep GM, Ford and Chrysler in the business of making gas guzzlers? So let them spend, what, one quarter's profits (??) and bail them out.

Then we can all look forward to 5 miles per gallon. Burn Palin burn!
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
post #53 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

The article you linked to is grossly misleading and doesn't present all the facts as can be found at many other websites, as for instance the links I've presented already.

Repeating something over and over again does not make it so.

This reply is not meant for a reply from you, but is meant to inform others here, as it states the actual facts of the matter.

Most people are capable of reading past a gotcha headline. \

Enough said!

The only way forward for the US is to share more technologies more often with it's potential foes, like China. That includes lot's of military hardware. If it doesn't there will be a growing need for resolution through another war. This extends down to the auto business in many ways . The financial infra-structures are dependent equally on this as they are on standardized regulated economies. ( posted for any serious readers, unlike some of the franksargent types, who are intent on mis-leading posts)
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
post #54 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

They're going to be lost anyway.

Urban populations are now at a tipping point where mass transit is going to come back in a big way. The 60's are over, and the never-ending highway system expansion is now going to be replaced largely by mass transit expansion. North America is growing up. Households with 2, 3 and 4 cars will be downsizing and the death of at least one North American automaker is inevitable.

And this is also exactly what most people with a focus on the environment wanted, so it's somewhat crazy to try to combat it with a taxpayer funded bailout.

Let. Them. Die. (ok, not die, as much as merge and reorganize.)

Bankruptcy is a natural cycle in our economic system. Happens in our airlines all the time, and no one has stopped building planes or buying tickets. As Andrew Coyne pointed out last week, when an automaker files bankruptcy papers, the tools, machinery and factories don't just disappear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Fuck 'em. None of the Big 3 did anything to innovate or respond to the worldwide automotive markets.

I imagine these opinions are widespread. I disagree with them, though.

First, we're not going to see some mass urbanization that suddenly requires fewer cars. To think otherwise--that somehow the suburbs are dead--is pure folly. Yes, there has been a trend towards urbanization, but not in the numbers that would be required to affect the overall demand for vehicles.

Secondly, I don't think that we can let GM (for example) go Chapter 11. Why? Well, as Pat Buchanan points out, it may cause them to go Chapter 7. That is, consumers may lose confidence that GM will be there to service their new vehicle years down the road, further driving down sales and causing not just bankruptcy, but them going out of business.

Now, as for the "fuck the big 3" attitude: This is so off base it's just laughable. The big three have been innovating in many ways, even if they did get caught up in profitable SUVs. For several years they've been developing flex fuel vehicles, hybrids electric vehicles, etc. Innovation is not the problem.

But I'll tell you what is the problem: The government. The US government has been brow beating the automakers into making vehicles that they can't economically make. Some of the technologies the government wanted didn't even exist yet when they were mandated by the government. Additionally, the government has allowed unfair trade practices to make overseas competition difficult. Of course, the Big Three have been further vilified as huge, soulless corporations that make obscene profits and pollute the environment. Hence, we have CAFE and MPG requirements that add costs. Now, the same people that caused the problem say they can fix it. Nice.

The Big Three certainly must take their share of the blame. Their vehicles are still not has high-quality as their Japanese counterparts, and their pricing/options/rebate structures are archaic and byzantine. But this is simply not all their fault. All in all, I think we should loan them the money they need to get through this period.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
post #55 of 616
Blame Nancy Pilosi. Is that what you're saying?
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #56 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Blame Nancy Pilosi. Is that what you're saying?

If you mean Nancy P-e-l-o-s-i, then partially, yes. Certainly she is not all or even mostly to blame. However, the fact that Democrats and some Republicans have beaten the hell out of the auto industry and now want to bail them out can't be ignored.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
post #57 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

If you mean Nancy P-e-l-o-s-i, then partially, yes.

Was that necessary? Because all it does is shut down communication and makes the other person hostile and unwilling to further conversation.

Unless, of course, that was your intent.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #58 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Was that necessary? Because all it does is shut down communication and makes the other person hostile and unwilling to further conversation.

Unless, of course, that was your intent.

Usually is.

I think I'm going to take a long, long break from here for a while.

I think Frank777 hit it right on the mark. Coming from me that should be a surprise. But it's not, it shows that we can all agree on something.

There's just not enough energy or progression to discuss it here anymore.

I guess we're all (well some) of us are in transition on some things once the facts are laid out. Some will just keep playing their tune, right off a cliff.
post #59 of 616
Well personally I think it would be a big mistake to let the big 3 go under. As many have pointed out here that's a lot of jobs lost along with the ones that depend on business from them. If you think the economic situation is bad now this will make it alot worse.

That's pretty easy to see.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #60 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I imagine these opinions are widespread. I disagree with them, though.

First, we're not going to see some mass urbanization that suddenly requires fewer cars. To think otherwise--that somehow the suburbs are dead--is pure folly. Yes, there has been a trend towards urbanization, but not in the numbers that would be required to affect the overall demand for vehicles.

Secondly, I don't think that we can let GM (for example) go Chapter 11. Why? Well, as Pat Buchanan points out, it may cause them to go Chapter 7. That is, consumers may lose confidence that GM will be there to service their new vehicle years down the road, further driving down sales and causing not just bankruptcy, but them going out of business.

Now, as for the "fuck the big 3" attitude: This is so off base it's just laughable. The big three have been innovating in many ways, even if they did get caught up in profitable SUVs. For several years they've been developing flex fuel vehicles, hybrids electric vehicles, etc. Innovation is not the problem.

But I'll tell you what is the problem: The government. The US government has been brow beating the automakers into making vehicles that they can't economically make. Some of the technologies the government wanted didn't even exist yet when they were mandated by the government. Additionally, the government has allowed unfair trade practices to make overseas competition difficult. Of course, the Big Three have been further vilified as huge, soulless corporations that make obscene profits and pollute the environment. Hence, we have CAFE and MPG requirements that add costs. Now, the same people that caused the problem say they can fix it. Nice.

The Big Three certainly must take their share of the blame. Their vehicles are still not has high-quality as their Japanese counterparts, and their pricing/options/rebate structures are archaic and byzantine. But this is simply not all their fault. All in all, I think we should loan them the money they need to get through this period.

Are there any seeds of truth to this rambling rant/screed/manifesto? I think not.

Domestic hybrids? What market share do these currently have? I'd be highly surprised if it was even 1% of overall hybrid sales. And what kind of hybrids do the big three offer? Expensive SUV's and upscale autos. And they can't even break 30 MPG.

Blame the goobermint? How exactly is the goobermint at fault? Some bone fide non-partisan links are required to flush out this all too apparent bogus canard.

When did the new CAFE standards become law? 2007, 2008, or 2009? And they're phased in to boot. The first light duty truck CAFE standards were thrown out of court, because of the bogus auto industry's faux footprint CAFE standard. That original auto industry sponsored CAFE standard was so bogus that it was shot down in less than a year.

About all Detroit is good for is innovating XpenZive gaZ guZZlerZ! These three are about 0.56% innovation and 99.44% high margin sales. They all should be retooled to manufacturing mopeds.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
post #61 of 616
They should start selling hamburgers because they certainly suck at making cars.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #62 of 616
Ok guys that's all fine and good but what about the unemployment this would bring. And how do you think that would affect the economy?

Even the people who currrently flip burgers would be affected because people who used to work for the big 3 would want their jobs. This really sounds like a recipe for disaster. Much as I hate to agree with SDW on some points.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #63 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Ok guys that's all fine and good but what about the unemployment this would bring. And how do you think that would affect the economy?

High unemployment is good for the economy - it provides downward pressure on wages and inflation, and it provides a large hiring pool for new companies and expansion of existing companies. It would be bad for the people laid off, but good for the economy.

The auto makers are a tumor on society - it might hurt a bit to cut that tumor out, but in the end we would all be better off. If we try to bail them out, then the problems in their business (union wages 65% higher than Toyota, average, bad products, bad management, too much capacity, etc) will never be solved. If we bail them out, it is a never ending money sink.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #64 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Ok guys that's all fine and good but what about the unemployment this would bring. And how do you think that would affect the economy?

Even the people who currrently flip burgers would be affected because people who used to work for the big 3 would want their jobs. This really sounds like a recipe for disaster. Much as I hate to agree with SDW on some points.

There's a lot of typical prejudice on this thread. The big 3 (2.5) need to work harder. I agree with a lot of what SDW said but where IMO he's especially wrong is him saying that the auto makers don't need to be pushed and that it's damaged the big 3 (that at least is how I interpreted what he said). Progress often comes from the barrel of a gun.Look at diesel and gas engines in Germany, they were pressured to make more fuel efficient vehicles (and still are) that pressure and investment (that US makers are now doing) has created much more efficient engines and gives them a solid business platform that's constantly improving with new developments. The significance of that success is heightened as The European Parliament has it's auto leaders influencing laws that fit their efficiency standards sufficiently,further isolating the falling behind competition, notably to the detriment of US exports.
Jeopardizing the US auto industry into collapse and then having it bought up by BMW,Toyota etc has severe ramifications, especially for the whole of the US manufacturing industry. What's equally troubling in my view is that it will leave a void into research and development which will impact technology as a whole.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
post #65 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

High unemployment is good for the economy - it provides downward pressure on wages and inflation, and it provides a large hiring pool for new companies and expansion of existing companies. It would be bad for the people laid off, but good for the economy.

The auto makers are a tumor on society - it might hurt a bit to cut that tumor out, but in the end we would all be better off. If we try to bail them out, then the problems in their business (union wages 65% higher than Toyota, average, bad products, bad management, too much capacity, etc) will never be solved. If we bail them out, it is a never ending money sink.


Kind of like unemployment was good for the economy during the last recession?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #66 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

There's a lot of typical prejudice on this thread. The big 3 (2.5) need to work harder. I agree with a lot of what SDW said but where IMO he's especially wrong is him saying that the auto makers don't need to be pushed and that it's damaged the big 3 (that at least is how I interpreted what he said). Progress often comes from the barrel of a gun.Look at diesel and gas engines in Germany, they were pressured to make more fuel efficient vehicles (and still are) that pressure and investment (that US makers are now doing) has created much more efficient engines and gives them a solid business platform that's constantly improving with new developments. The significance of that success is heightened as The European Parliament has it's auto leaders influencing laws that fit their efficiency standards sufficiently,further isolating the falling behind competition, notably to the detriment of US exports.
Jeopardizing the US auto industry into collapse and then having it bought up by BMW,Toyota etc has severe ramifications, especially for the whole of the US manufacturing industry. What's equally troubling in my view is that it will leave a void into research and development which will impact technology as a whole.

Maybe they should be bailed out with conditions. I know that's like goverment sticking it's nose into business but look at what we're looking at here people!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #67 of 616
Those conditions should be EVERY CAR THAT ROLLS OFF THE LINE SHOULD BE ZERO EMISSIONS WITHIN 10 YEARS!
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #68 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Those conditions should be EVERY CAR THAT ROLLS OFF THE LINE SHOULD BE ZERO EMISSIONS WITHIN 10 YEARS!

Do you think Toyota or Honda are going to do that?

Just a question.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #69 of 616
I don't really care what Toyota or Honda does. I want AMERICA TO LEAD AGAIN! I want American to show the world it can be done when the will is there to do it. And then, maybe, the others will follow suit.

Do we have the will?

I doubt it. Our planet and our safety depend on it though.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #70 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

I don't really care what Toyota or Honda does. I want AMERICA TO LEAD AGAIN! I want American to show the world it can be done when the will is there to do it. And then, maybe, the others will follow suit.

Do we have the will?

I doubt it. Our planet and our safety depend on it though.

Yes they do. However is it reasonable to ask that every new car is electric? Which is what you're saying. Is it even feasible within 10 years given all the changes that would have to be made? What I'm most worried about right now is all of those people out of work.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #71 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

But I'll tell you what is the problem: The government. The US government has been brow beating the automakers into making vehicles that they can't economically make. Some of the technologies the government wanted didn't even exist yet when they were mandated by the government. Additionally, the government has allowed unfair trade practices to make overseas competition difficult. Of course, the Big Three have been further vilified as huge, soulless corporations that make obscene profits and pollute the environment. Hence, we have CAFE and MPG requirements that add costs. Now, the same people that caused the problem say they can fix it. Nice.

Honda, Toyta, GM, Chrysler and Ford all operate under the same set of rules - how come Toyota and Honda don't suck like GM, Chrysler and Ford? And how do you propose fixing the two main problems - labor costs 65% higher in the big three than at Toyota, and GM having 5 times as many dealerships as Toyota.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #72 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Those conditions should be EVERY CAR THAT ROLLS OFF THE LINE SHOULD BE ZERO EMISSIONS WITHIN 10 YEARS!

Mandate the impossible.

That's why we have a free market system and government should be out of it.
post #73 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Honda, Toyta, GM, Chrysler and Ford all operate under the same set of rules - how come Toyota and Honda don't suck like GM, Chrysler and Ford? And how do you propose fixing the two main problems - labor costs 65% higher in the big three than at Toyota, and GM having 5 times as many dealerships as Toyota.

Forward thinking. The same thing that screwed them up in the late 70's early 80's. When more people started buying more Japanese they started to change and make good cars again. It's really amazing how this mirrors that time. Back then they were still turning out big boats that you could land an airplane on the hood. Also the quality sucked. Then they ( after some false starts ) started making more fuel efficient cars that actually held together. Fast forward to the 21rst century. They became complacent again and instead of boats they made SUVs. Bad milage and sloppy workmanship.

I have to say I'm not as green as I should be. I own a Mustang GT. It's the 3rd Mustang I've owned. The quality on each has been good and they get better milage than some of those huge SUVs I see lumbering around town. This is a 1999 model. The one I owned previously was a 1990 GT. The difference is that with my current car I can drive up to Portland ( 54 miles to the north ), drive all around up there, and come back and only be down slightly less than 1/4 of a tank. The old one would have gone through more than half a tank on that trip. This engine has more horse power but you have to wind it out a bit more to tap into that.
So all in all progress has been made.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #74 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Mandate the impossible.

That's why we have a free market system and government should be out of it.

But in dire times there's exceptions to every rule.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #75 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

But in dire times there's exceptions to every rule.

It'll cost more than $25B to mandate zero emission cars from detroit in 10 years.
post #76 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

It cost more than $25B to mandate zero emission cars from detroit in 10 years.


Have you been reading what's been posted before or do you just chime in and say whatever?

Look back at what I've posted. I indicated it would be difficult if not impossible also. I agree they could tighten up the way business is run with the big 3. What I'm worried about is that if they go under we'll have all those people out of work.

Now learn to read before you post ok?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #77 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Have you been reading what's been posted before or do you just chime in and say whatever?

Look back at what I've posted. I indicated it would be difficult if not impossible also. I agree they could tighten up the way business is run with the big 3. What I'm worried about is that if they go under we'll have all those people out of work.

Now learn to read before you post ok?

The bailout they want is just enough to keep them running to do what they do now. How much extra is it going to cost to make 100% zero emission cars in 10 years Detroit would see through this and rather go Chapter 11.
post #78 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

The bailout they want is just enough to keep them running to do what they do now. How much extra is it going to cost to make 100% zero emission cars in 10 years Detroit would see through this and rather go Chapter 11.

That's why I said " With conditions ".

And what about all those people out of work? I certainly don't find that ( )! Do you?

Like I said learn to read before you post.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #79 of 616
Yea I have read. And not the bullshit here. That's why is so that people think they can force detroit to fulfill their green wet dreams.
post #80 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Yea I have read. And not the bullshit here. That's why is so that people think they can force detroit to fulfill their green wet dreams.

Not only do you not read the other parts of the thread you don't deal with the reality of the situation either do you? That's just great. The country's going to hell in a handbasket and you think it's funny. No wonder the conservatives are out of favor.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Auto Industry Bailout