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Auto Industry Bailout - Page 11

post #401 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

The losing dealers have been notified. Some of the fallout is heartbreaking.

These people deserved better than the shoddy way this is being handled.

Heartbreaking? Indeed. Necessary? Probably. Poorly handled? Most likely. But this sloppiness should not be a surprise to anyone.

I read the letter. The author was wrong about one thing: "THIS IS A PRIVATE BUSINESS NOT A GOVERNMENT ENTITY"

GM and Chrysler are effectively government owned at this point and the government officials are running roughshod over anyone that gets int the way of paying off the UAW.

Additionally he says: "My business is being stolen from me through NO FAULT OF OUR OWN. We did NOTHING wrong."

Yep. Welcome to the new America. The American taxpayers have been getting plundered for years but most aggressively and transparently in the past several months to help prop up companies that most of us did not invest in, did not manage and had no role in their failure, but are made to pay for it anyway.

And finally he asks: "HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN IN A FREE MARKET ECONOMY IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA?"

Because America is not (and has not been for a long time) a free-market economy and it has become radically less-so in the recent past. I expect further departure over the next few years.
post #402 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Additionally he says: "My business is being stolen from me through NO FAULT OF OUR OWN. We did NOTHING wrong."

The bondholders were stolen from, true, but not the dealerships. The dealerships were given an extra six months of life via billions of government bailouts. This guy would have lost his dealership earlier had the government not intervened, he was part of a failing business.

How exactly did the government steal anything from this guy? The government has to be pretty bad at stealing stuff if they end up billions of dollars poorer after they do the stealing.
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post #403 of 616
e1618978 is right.
Imagine what it would be like for the dealers if Chrysler and GM didn't get billions.
post #404 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

The American taxpayers have been getting plundered for years but most aggressively and transparently in the past several months ...

Only the last several months, huh? Please. Just stop with this bullshit. Government has been stepping in and bailing out industries for DECADES. Yet, somehow you want us all to think that THIS TIME it's different, nefarious, illegal, immoral, or thievery. Why?

Oh, yeah, right. It's because there's a Democrat in the White House.

If Obama and the rest of the government allowed GM and Chrysler to just roll over and die you guys would be singing a completely different tune. It would probably be something like, "Obama doesn't care about the little guy, the American worker, the small business man reliant on those contracts." And you know it!!! It's just a bunch of disingenuous CRAP!
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post #405 of 616
A lot of heat Northgate, but very little light.

Bailouts have certainly been done before. But never on so large a scale, especially in times when the Government doesn't have the money to spend, and won't for a long, long time.

Obama himself says that the U.S. debtload is "unsustainable" but he hasn't stopped throwing money at anything that moves. Enjoy your 82% debt-to-GDP ratio.

Stealing from your kids will always be nefarious, illegal, immoral, and thievery.
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post #406 of 616
We can argue all day long about whether or not government should bail out industries like the airlines and the auto industry (think Lee Iococca).

What I'm referring to is the silly political gamesmanship that somehow Obama is doing something unique or dastardly. Hell, Bush had already started this ball rolling before Obama even took office. No one on the right side of the isle was up in arms then.

Somehow, though, I suspect Republicans wouldn't be upset at all about bailing out GM and Chrysler if Obama had crushed the unions. If he'd done what Republicans want (kill the American auto worker and their lascivious unions for daring to lean Democratic) then they'd gladly not give two shits about GM.
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post #407 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Somehow, though, I suspect Republicans wouldn't be upset at all about bailing out GM and Chrysler if Obama had crushed the unions. If he'd done what Republicans want (kill the American auto worker and their lascivious unions for daring to lean Democratic) then they'd gladly not give two shits about GM.

It would have been better to crush the unions, because what Obama did was very damaging. He gave the unions (unsecured creditors) a larger payout than the secured creditors - this will totally destroy the whole notion of secured credit. Companies will have to pay higher interest rates, because nobody will take collateral in exchange for lower rates, since the rule of law has been upended.

A bunch of things have been done that erode the rules of capital structure - AIG stockholders and preferred shareholders should have been wiped out completely, same with FNM and FRE. If you can't trust that the rules will be followed in bankruptcy court, then people will not invest here.
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post #408 of 616
The USA needs a manufacturing base.

I think GM and Chrysler are relevant.
They still employ thousands directly and millions indirectly in the USA, and manufacture more cars in the USA than all other makers combined.

Plus they are, or at least GM, on a roll.

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post #409 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

We can argue all day long about whether or not government should bail out industries like the airlines and the auto industry (think Lee Iococca).

What I'm referring to is the silly political gamesmanship that somehow Obama is doing something unique or dastardly. Hell, Bush had already started this ball rolling before Obama even took office. No one on the right side of the isle was up in arms then.

Somehow, though, I suspect Republicans wouldn't be upset at all about bailing out GM and Chrysler if Obama had crushed the unions. If he'd done what Republicans want (kill the American auto worker and their lascivious unions for daring to lean Democratic) then they'd gladly not give two shits about GM.

Very few are arguing solely about whether government should have bailout power. What I think people are most concerned with are the unprecedented scale of the bailouts (both the banking and the automotive ones.)

Everybody is aware that these processes started under Bush. And conservatives railed against them then, so don't pretend that there was nobody on the right "up in arms" over it.

Also, it's extremely funny that Democrats feel they own the autoworker vote. Republicans would not try to "kill the American autoworker" because a large number of those well-paid workers vote Republican.

Union leadership may be in the tank for the Democrats, but union towns (like Oshawa here in Ontario) have elected conservatives to political office. Once you start making over $100,000, the whole "soak the rich" philosophy starts to get old really fast.

Now that both GM and Chrysler are in the process of bankruptcy, the question remains as to what benefit taxpayers got by forking out billions in order to stave off the inevitable for a few months.

Obama got to look tough and fire the head of GM. Can anybody enlighten me as to why we paid billions (on both sides of the border) and what we got for it?
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post #410 of 616
Being "concerned" about it is one thing. But turning on a megaphone and using hate-filled language like "socialist" and "communist" simply because it makes you feel are fuzzy inside is something altogether.

Again, it's the tactics you people choose rather than the arguments you make that have relegated your ideology to the dung heap you're currently sitting on.
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post #411 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Being "concerned" about it is one thing. But turning on a megaphone and using hate-filled language like "socialist" and "communist" simply because it makes you feel are fuzzy inside is something altogether.

Again, it's the tactics you people choose rather than the arguments you make that have relegated your ideology to the dung heap you're currently sitting on.

Our tactics? What about an administration that is apparently corrupt within months of taking office?
Or is it normal to target your political adversaries under the guise of a government bailout?

Chicago politics gone national.
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post #412 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Our tactics? What about an administration that is apparently corrupt within months of taking office?
Or is it normal to target your political adversaries under the guise of a government bailout?

Chicago politics gone national.

That is a bullshit propaganda article. 90% of the closed dealerships donated to the Republicans - so what? I bet 90% of all the dealerships donated to the Republicans.
Show me a real statistical analysis of the donation patterns - it would have to be several standard deviations off normal to make sense with such a small sample size. Obama is doing some evil things, but he isn't doing this.
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post #413 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Being "concerned" about it is one thing. But turning on a megaphone and using hate-filled language like "socialist" and "communist" simply because it makes you feel are fuzzy inside is something altogether.

Again, it's the tactics you people choose rather than the arguments you make that have relegated your ideology to the dung heap you're currently sitting on.

Why is "socialist" and "communist" hate filled?

The US is currently depending on a communist nation called China for everything including the $ it takes to continue capitalism.
Socialist countries are making things like Mercedes, BMW, VW, high quality steel and the US is happily manufacturing in socialist and communist countries because of the fact that their governments are supporting the workforce.
post #414 of 616
Does those government(s) own VW? Mercedes? BMW?

It's not a "bailout". It's nationalization.

The U.S. Government will own 72.5% of GM. How do you feel about your tax dollars along with insane amounts of debt being used to subsidize government take-overs of private businesses?

Mark my words, the power the U.S. Government has obtained over the banks, auto-industry, etc. will NEVER be relinquished willingly.

At this point, if I buy American at all it will be a Ford. Although I hate to support the UAW that is partially to blame for the downfall of the American auto industry.

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post #415 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

That is a bullshit propaganda article. 90% of the closed dealerships donated to the Republicans - so what? I bet 90% of all the dealerships donated to the Republicans.
Show me a real statistical analysis of the donation patterns - it would have to be several standard deviations off normal to make sense with such a small sample size. Obama is doing some evil things, but he isn't doing this.

Yup, control groups are sweet.

And, shockingly I know, this is all a bunch of hot air.
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post #416 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

Yup, control groups are sweet.

And, shockingly I know, this is all a bunch of hot air.

The Republicans making a big deal of this just makes them look desperate. Which they are.

When businesses go bankrupt, there are consequences.

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post #417 of 616
Thread Starter 
http://zerohedge.blogspot.com/2009/0...artifical.html

There was a slight preference for Clinton donors, but it was way less than statistically significant, in other words there is no evidence that any preference was given to Democratic dealerships in the Chrysler dealership shutdown list.
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post #418 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

The Republicans making a big deal of this just makes them look desperate. Which they are.

When businesses go bankrupt, there are consequences.

All the Repukenikans in the senate have voted against the bailout. If it was for them ALL OF THE DEALERS WOULD BE OUT OF BUSINESS.
post #419 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

http://zerohedge.blogspot.com/2009/0...artifical.html

There was a slight preference for Clinton donors, but it was way less than statistically significant, in other words there is no evidence that any preference was given to Democratic dealerships in the Chrysler dealership shutdown list.

You guys might be looking in the wrong place.

While I have not idea whatsoever (nor do I care) id there was any politically motivated decision-making in which dealers to keep. It might not be the dealer owners that are Democrat or Republican. You might look at the locations. The counties. The districts. And these might not be Democratic leaning. Think bigger.

Look back at FDR (though it remains to be seen if Obama is as shrewd...I think he probably is).

When FDR was handing out all of the pork...ummm..."stimulus" spending, it was very carefully orchestrated and planned by his man Harold Ickes to essentially buy votes. What this meant was that solid Democratic counties did not get much if any. So-called "swing" counties however...well...you can guess.
post #420 of 616
New Era in Autos as GM Set for Bankruptcy

Quote:
By KEVIN HELLIKER, NEIL KING JR. and JOHN D. STOLL

DETROIT -- General Motors Corp. will file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy early Monday, marking the humbling of an American icon that once dominated the global car industry and setting up a high-stakes gamble for U.S. taxpayers.


$100s of billions wasted at the bidding of the UAW for no change in the final outcome.

Hope, Change, Debt
post #421 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

New Era in Autos as GM Set for Bankruptcy




$100s of billions wasted at the bidding of the UAW for no change in the final outcome.

Hope, Change, Debt

Imagine the effect earlier in the economic crisis if this had happened back when nothing had been done to try to avert it yet.
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post #422 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Imagine the effect earlier in the economic crisis if this had happened back when nothing had been done to try to avert it yet.

Maybe the band aid would have been ripped off already and we'd see that the wound was healing well. Instead we left it on and see that the sore is still oozing and needs to have the dead flesh cut away.
post #423 of 616
Brilliant, Mr. Bush and Mr. Obama. "GM is too big to fail."

So, instead of letting them fail in the first place, the government throws billions of dollars of our money at them which we now know was only so they (the government) could acquire a 70+% stake, THEN we let them fail.

Witness the birth of a government-run auto industry in the United States of America.

Get ready to drive small, flimsy, even more poorly constructed cars (but darn it, they'll be fuel efficient!) and pay a premium to drive trucks and vans, brought to you by the new GM: Government Motors.

Looks like the banks are next.

Thank you, Mr. Bush and Mr. Obama. Can you take over the energy industry after that?

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post #424 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Brilliant, Mr. Bush and Mr. Obama. "GM is too big to fail."

So, instead of letting them fail in the first place, the government throws billions of dollars of our money at them which we now know was only so they (the government) could acquire a 70+% stake, THEN we let them fail.

Witness the birth of a government-run auto industry in the United States of America.

Get ready to drive small, flimsy, even more poorly constructed cars (but darn it, they'll be fuel efficient!) and pay a premium to drive trucks and vans, brought to you by the new GM: Government Motors.

Looks like the banks are next.

Thank you, Mr. Bush and Mr. Obama. Can you take over the energy industry after that?

Bush let this thing fester and Obama made the situation infinitely worse.

But to be fair to both of them, the designation "too big to fail" was attached to the company in the 90s. Up here in Ontario, our socialist NDP government used the designation to allow GM to weasel out of fully funding its pension scheme.

Anyone who has read the books by GM's ex-CEOs understands that the company was too big to be managed, and should have been broken up into at least two or three companies years ago.

Bankruptcy and reorganization is a fact of life for large tech industries.
This should have happened a long time ago.
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post #425 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

New Era in Autos as GM Set for Bankruptcy




$100s of billions wasted at the bidding of the UAW for no change in the final outcome.

Hope, Change, Debt

and more authoritarian government, amen brother. but dems already had the union vote i think this was like obama pissing on a tree for a marker...."now let me show you what i plan for other industries i'm taking over" this is the shot over the capitalist bow, "fundamental change of our economy" now we should rename the newspapers "pravda"

and now what will be said 6 months from now as we are told to pay more taxes.
the other thing people are not talking about, obama forces chrysler to sell assets to
FIAT, a foreign auto company, where is obama for keeping domestic industry here? and this thing about being against shipping jobs overseas....good luck US worker and consumer

now on to health care "reform"

obama will find another "crisis" for government to fix, is this what people voted for??
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post #426 of 616
For those that are interested, here's a fact sheet on what is happening with GM.
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post #427 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

For those that are interested, here's a fact sheet on what is happening with GM.

Thanks for the link. Good info.

I hope they're able to sell Saturn instead of kill it altogether. I've owned 2 Saturns and both were great.

I'm currently driving a 96 Geo Metro (3 cyl) averaging 43 mpg. I've been kinda looking around for a used car that's a bit larger - I'm starting to feel unsafe in that little Metro and if I ever have to transport anyone else in it in addition to myself it makes me even more nervous.

But now I'm in a bit of quandry. I want to support American businesses, but ever since Chrysler and GM accepted the "bailouts", I vowed never to buy their brands ever again. I had considered Ford a viable alternative (after having previously written them off due to a bad experience with one of their cars). They haven't accepted any "bailouts", and they seem to be weathering this thing pretty well, but they're still under the thumb of the corrupt UAW and I don't know if I want to support that, either.

Looks like I'll be buying from a foreign automaker. I kinda like Subarus.

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post #428 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I kinda like Subarus.

The Subaru turbo forester is faster from 0-30 than a Ferrari Enzo. I drive a 2007 Volvo V70R - Volvo sold them for a loss even at MSRP, as they are very well made, and they also depreciated a lot. The V70R model will meet your safety requirements, and the suspension and brakes are massively overbuilt.
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post #429 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

The Subaru turbo forester is faster from 0-30 than a Ferrari Enzo. I drive a 2007 Volvo V70R - Volvo sold them for a loss even at MSRP, as they are very well made, and they also depreciated a lot. The V70R model will meet your safety requirements, and the suspension and brakes are massively overbuilt.

I've been looking at Volvos, too. I know they're considered some of the safest cars on the road. How is their reliability and repair costs?

The reason I'm looking at Subaru is the AWD. Not that I particularly need AWD here in the metro Phoenix area, which is basically in a huge basin. But I do enjoy galavanting up in the northern Arizona mountains and would like the added stability and traction of AWD if I decide to take a snow trip.

I want a wagon so I can cram more camping/recreation gear in the back.

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post #430 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I've been looking at Volvos, too. I know they're considered some of the safest cars on the road. How is their reliability and repair costs?

As long as you avoid the cars made from 1997-2002 (first five years after Ford bought them), then reliability is great and repair costs are moderate for standard Volvos. The R cars also have good reliability, but cost more to repair due to the fancy parts.

In Phoenix, I think you are better off renting a SUV for snow trips, as AWD cuts into your gas millage quite a bit, and you would have to have a spare set of wheels with snow tires for snow trips.
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post #431 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamac View Post

All the Repukenikans in the senate have voted against the bailout. If it was for them ALL OF THE DEALERS WOULD BE OUT OF BUSINESS.

And we should make sure they never forget that.
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post #432 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

$100s of billions wasted at the bidding of the UAW for no change in the final outcome.

Why do you hate average hard-working Americans so much. The UAW protects their interests. Why do you, and folks like you, insist on constantly harping on the American work force?
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post #433 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamac View Post

All the Repukenikans in the senate have voted against the bailout. If it was for them ALL OF THE DEALERS WOULD BE OUT OF BUSINESS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

And we should make sure they never forget that.

This is the kind of ignorant nonsense that makes people think the Democrats have no business running an economy.

Bailout or no bailout, a complete shutdown of GM was never on the table.

Bankruptcy would have hurt certain established interests, which is the only reason the Governments involved were lobbied so hard to stop it. In the end and billions later, we ended up right where this should have gone in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Why do you hate average hard-working Americans so much. The UAW protects their interests. Why do you, and folks like you, insist on constantly harping on the American work force?

The unions protect no-one but their own bottom line. In the 90's, the unions gladly hopped onto the "too big to fail" bus, exchanging weaker pension rules for protections of current job levels. They sold out their own pensioners to keep the level of union dues stable.

The 'American workforce' is fine, and will be even better when dinosaurs like the UAW/CAW aren't around to artificially inflate the cost of auto production every few years, driving jobs offshore and to Mexico instead of keeping them at home.
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post #434 of 616
So these huge corporate behemoths have simply been prudent and honest brokers during their tenure in this country and the unions have only profited off of them and not protected workers?
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post #435 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

And we should make sure they never forget that.

That's just hysteria. Democrats, the party of fear.
post #436 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

That's just hysteria. Democrats, the party of fear.

ROTFL
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post #437 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Maybe the band aid would have been ripped off already and we'd see that the wound was healing well. Instead we left it on and see that the sore is still oozing and needs to have the dead flesh cut away.

I think anyone who doesn't realize that if nothing had been done this would have just pushed things over the edge back then is naive at best. The wound was gangrenous. Doing nothing and letting go is what got us into this situation in the first place ( say for the last 8 long years ).

We've already tried ( for a long while ) letting it run on it's own and look where it got us. You'd have an argumentative leg to stand on if we hadn't already been there/done that.
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post #438 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

That's just hysteria. Democrats, the party of fear.

You've got things slightly backwards unless you've forgot the last 8 years.
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post #439 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I think anyone who doesn't realize that if nothing had been done this would have just pushed things over the edge back then is naive at best. The wound was gangrenous. Doing nothing and letting go is what got us into this situation in the first place ( say for the last 8 long years ).

We've already tried ( for a long while ) letting it run on it's own and look where it got us. You'd have an argumentative leg to stand on if we hadn't already been there/done that.



It's stunning to me how just about every post you write makes it even more clear that you've got no idea what the fuck you're talking about.

This whole economic fiasco is absolutely, positively, without question not a result of the federal government having "done nothing" nor is it a result of unfettered, runaway, laissez faire free-market capitalism. Anyone that claims such a thing simply doesn't know what they're talking about.

To jump into your tortured analogy, if the wound was gangrenous (probably a fair assessment), then the appendage should be cut off (bankruptcy). Instead, they tried to put a fucking bandage on it in the hope that it just got better.
post #440 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post



It's stunning to me how just about every post you write makes it even more clear that you've got no idea what the fuck you're talking about.

This whole economic fiasco is absolutely, positively, without question not a result of the federal government having "done nothing" nor is it a result of unfettered, runaway, laissez faire free-market capitalism. Anyone that claims such a thing simply doesn't know what they're talking about.

To jump into your tortured analogy, if the wound was gangrenous (probably a fair assessment), then the appendage should be cut off (bankruptcy). Instead, they tried to put a fucking bandage on it in the hope that it just got better.

Are you offering anything in this post?
Or just "You don't know anything, but I won't tell you ...?"

Bankruptcy = Greek for "Broken Bench."

Originally in ancient Greece people had to work off their debts as slaves. Most Greek crafters sat on benches to do their work. Their debtors would break these benches.
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