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Apple sees Mac sales rise 28% amid latest notebook launch - Page 2

post #41 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Ever notice Porsche drivers are typically older, take their car to the dealer and don't sweat spending a ton of money for routine maintainence?

This is in comparison to say, folks that soup up their cars, change their own oil and are demanding as hell on a car that costs half as much for the about same level of performance but is less refined?

Nope, sorry...same opinion as before. Folks with money are demanding in different ways but easier to keep happy if you have a good user experience throught the life of the product. This is why Apple stores are the way they are vs the way Best Buy is.

Porsches break down too. But hey as long as they get a nice cup of designer coffee while waiting for their very nice loaner it doesn't matter so much.



Porsche wants to sell more cars to folks with money. Not to folks without money. Same with Apple. They want to sell more Macs, on THEIR terms. There's still market share to be had in that demographic.

What a nice way of putting it and I AGREE totally!. Also Porsche sells on their terms. If a buyer wants to soup up their product. they go to RUF. Apple pretty much follows this principle. The automotive industry is way refined in their ways of doing things. Some analogies are almost identical.
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post #42 of 64
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Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I agree with everything else you have stated, but I do feel that the loss of FW400 from both the MBP and MB are due to the change in the form. While this is an engineering trade off of allowing easier access to the HDD and battery, which in itself adds a function, the new 'form' has reduced the ability for Apple to have all the ports they had on the previous notebook design. FW400 was bottom of the totem poll; I don't think it's much more complex than that.

That may be true for the Macbook Pro, but the hard drive and battery in the Macbook were always easy to access. It was just 0.13in too thick for Ive's taste.
post #43 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

That may be true for the Macbook Pro, but the hard drive and battery in the Macbook were always easy to access. It was just 0.13in too thick for Ive's taste.

Yes, it was easy, and now it's easier and it adds the function of having the Kensington lock also prevent from the latch from opening. This is something I have thought about many times while locking my laptop up and leaving it unattended. But that is beside the point, the new construction is different, thus it introduces new challenges to the engineers.
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post #44 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I agree with everything else you have stated, but I do feel that the loss of FW400 from both the MBP and MB are due to the change in the form. While this is an engineering trade off of allowing easier access to the HDD and battery, which in itself adds a function, the new 'form' has reduced the ability for Apple to have all the ports they had on the previous notebook design. FW400 was bottom of the totem poll; I don't think it's much more complex than that.

Mmm...I agree that the FW400 was on the bottom of the list but I'm wondering why else would I get a MBP but for FW800 or expresscard? Okay, the GPU IS faster, the screen is a little larger but still. But the GPU on the MB is no longer wimpy. And the difference between 13" and 15" isn't that large.

For me, the MBP is a harder sell today than before.
post #45 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Mmm...I agree that the FW400 was on the bottom of the list but I'm wondering why else would I get a MBP but for FW800 or expresscard? Okay, the GPU IS faster, the screen is a little larger but still. But the GPU on the MB is no longer wimpy. And the difference between 13" and 15" isn't that large.

For me, the MBP is a harder sell today than before.

I prefer the smaller the 13" display and the GPU being considerably faster was a pleasant surprise, but not a deal breaker. What did keep me in the MB range was the inclusion of a backlit keyboard.

The MBP comes with...
Faster/CPUs with more L2
Larger and faster HDDs
Larger screen
FW800 port
2" larger display on the diagonal
better quality display
EC/34
dedicated GPU.

Did I miss anything? I think that is enough to warrant the additional $400 over the top of the line MB. With OpenCL and Grand Central on the horizon I think the 2nd GPU in the MBP will prove to make that aspect something to consider when buying a new Mac. I will certainly be considering a 15" MBP despite my preference for a smaller machine if the speed is outstanding.

PS: What the new MB offer over the previous MB...
Aluminium
stronger/more rigid
Backlit display
Backlit keyboard (offered on higher end only)
New trackpad and associated gestures
Display Port to run a 30" display.
Much better GPU than Intel's offerings*
The assortment of better RAM, larger HDD, better CPUs, but these are expected of an update so these are only mentioned so I do have to explain why I didn't include them in a later post.

That is a lot of things to add to the MB over the previous version. Sucks to lose FW if you really want it and a MB, but those who say that Apple removed it so they can push people into the MBP need to look at all the evidence.

* I was very weary of Nvidia on this front, but so far the only issues I've had was the trackpad, but that is a 'was'.
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post #46 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

The beat goes on. Shame about the stock.

They think that the economic down turn will hit Apple hard. There is an upshot; if Apple can demonstrate that their computers are long lasting and better quality - people might choose to go for the slightly dearer product rather than purchasing the cheap disposable product that one gets less usage out of.
post #47 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiwai View Post

They think that the economic down turn will hit Apple hard. There is an upshot; if Apple can demonstrate that their computers are long lasting and better quality - people might choose to go for the slightly dearer product rather than purchasing the cheap disposable product that one gets less usage out of.

As Jobs remarked they may also simply feel that folks will defer a purchase rather than buy a lesser product. So staying at the high end without introducing a lower end model or dropping prices doesn't lose a sale to Dell, just defers one until recovery.

That strategy will work so long as we're not looking at a long depression. Even then Apple has a huge warchest which represents great opportunity in this economic environment. They can buy and innovate their way to larger share post-recession.

In some ways Apple isn't a luxury brand but in others it is. Louis Vutton or Chanel sells $1600/sq ft in their stores. Apple sells $4000. Apple is the Nordstrom of technology.

There you go...not one car analogy.
post #48 of 64
I myself am waiting for the 17" MBP and use it as my workhorse. I need a 1920x1080 screen. Somewhere around H1 2009 Intel is supposed to have a 3GHz mobile processor that sounds like it will go into the 17".

I'm thinking of using the MBA as my general personal machine, the MBP 17" as my pro media machine. Use them both in a desktop configuration on the LED ACD.




Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Mmm...I agree that the FW400 was on the bottom of the list but I'm wondering why else would I get a MBP but for FW800 or expresscard? Okay, the GPU IS faster, the screen is a little larger but still. But the GPU on the MB is no longer wimpy. And the difference between 13" and 15" isn't that large.

For me, the MBP is a harder sell today than before.
post #49 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Except that Apple has reduced power consumption that the ALU with the 45 W/hr battery lasts about as long as the older MB with the 55 W/hr battery. Mossberg reported that the new MB lasted 6 minutes longer on his battery test.

Wow, you seem a bit confused here. I raised the point of what Mossberg thought of the MacBook Pro's battery life, not the MacBook's. Here are his comments on that:

Much worse is the loss of battery life [on the new MacBook Pro]. When used with its discrete graphics processor, the natural mode for the kind of audience at which the Pro is aimed, Apple claims it will get just 4 hours of battery life, versus the 5 hours it claimed for its predecessor, which also used a discrete graphics processor. That’s a whopping 20% reduction in battery life.

To compensate, Apple built in a second, alternate, graphics system, the same wimpier integrated graphics chip that’s used in the lower-end MacBook. Only when you switch to this alternate chip — a clumsy process that involves changing a preference in software — can you hope to retain the old 5-hour battery life.

...for owners of the most recent prior MacBook Pro, the new model’s tradeoffs make an upgrade an iffy choice.


Oh, the name of Mossberg's article? "MacBook Pro Tradeoffs". Not much ambiguity there.


Quote:
What you want is MORE performance.

LOL. Don't we all?

But seriously, think about it for a sec. Your basic point is that it's great for Apple to go with the smaller capacity batteries, since they've also reduced power draw... a point that is not true for the MacBook Pro, unless it's in 'wimpy graphics' mode. But fine, let's pretend for the moment that your assertion is correct.

What did we get out of the smaller cap battery? A very slightly thinner notebook. Oh yay.

What would we have gotten out of reduced power draw PLUS the use of the same ol' batteries they used to use? Perhaps another half hour or hour of battery life, at the expense of a very slightly thicker form factor? I'll take that.

And I bet a lot of other ppl would as well. You may hate the term 'form over function', but that seems to sum it up quite well.


Quote:
FW was not a form issue. FW is missing for the same reason that the expresscard slot is missing.

You and Solip need to get your stories straight. Seems like half the ppl insist that Firewire is gone because of space issues, and half insist that space had nothing to do with it. Unless either one of you is a notebook engineer, seems all we can give you is a big shrug here.


Quote:
The MB is essentially a MBP now at lower cost.

Gosh, no, not even close. MB Pro > MB by quite a bit... bigger screen, quite a bit higher-quality screen, expansion, Firewire, better graphics. To say that the MB is a low-cost MBP just because they look similar/both have unibody is to say a Toyota MR2 is a Ferrari just 'cuz they look kind of alike.

See? I even said it in your 'tired car analogy' language.


Quote:
There's a new case that blends in a bigger battery for the iPhone and there are external packs of various kinds and sizes. I don't see where Apple traded significant function for form on the iPhone.

Whoa... you didn't notice that the new iPhone is 5 hours battery life vs the old iPhone's 8 hours? Wow. \


Quote:
It fits nicely in my hand now and I doubt Apple could have gotten a lot more power into it without making it more awkward...and I have medium sized male hands. It's probably borderline for small female hands sizewise.

LOL, that's funny, especially considering that not long ago your typical phone was about double the thickness of the iPhone. Whatever did your "medium sized male hands" do then? Didja have to lift weights in order to strengthen your grip or something?

Of course, Apple doesn't have to go to the extreme of making inch-thick bricks... they just have to understand that going a couple of millimeters thicker on a cellphone is hardly noticeable, but another hour or two of battery life definitely is.

It is possible to have the best of both worlds, style and practicality, but to do so you have to not be so in love with one over the other as Apple currently seems to be.


Quote:
There are certainly smaller phones. Even the Sony Walkman phones are smaller.

Depends what you consider "smaller". The iPhone is wider and taller than the Sony Walkman phones, simply due to the fact that it has a bigger screen. But in terms of thickness, the Walkman phones are actually a bit thicker, at least the one's I've looked at, like the W760 and W580.


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post #50 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

... the [MB Pro] screen is a little larger but still. But the GPU on the MB is no longer wimpy. And the difference between 13" and 15" isn't that large.


I'd have to strongly disagree here. I just got a new MacBook Pro (the early '08 model, such a deal on Amazon right now), and the screen size difference is HUGE and instantly noticeable... for the better.

On paper, it doesn't seem like that much- 13.3" vs 15.4". Only 2". But if you do the math, you see that you actually have 35% more screen area on the MBP, and it just feels... BETTER. I don't feel cramped anymore, I don't have to put the dock on the side anymore to get enough usable vertical room, side-scrolling seems to be almost a thing of the past, it's just... bueno.

And that's just size. The screen quality is quite a bit better than the MB too.

Now, I get that some ppl will like the 13.3" due to portability, but I pick up the MBP and it does not feel like a kludge at all. Dimensionally, it's maybe an inch and a half wider and three-quarters of an inch deeper. I sure won't cry over that.

The only thing that really sucks on the (early '08) MBP is the price... $2000 continues to be pretty ridiculous, and that's just the entry-point for the MBP line. If I couldn't have scored mine for $1450 or so, I wouldn't have done it.

But at that price, it is so worth it.

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post #51 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

As Jobs remarked they may also simply feel that folks will defer a purchase rather than buy a lesser product. So staying at the high end without introducing a lower end model or dropping prices doesn't lose a sale to Dell, just defers one until recovery.

Not exactly. Steve is only partially right in his comment... some will defer, some won't. If your heart is truly set on a Mac and you can wait, you probably will.

But if your old comp is on its last legs or is hopelessly outdated, and you actually need a new comp and can't afford a decent Mac... well then, dude, you're getting a Dell. And Apple's losing a sale. \


Quote:
There you go...not one car analogy.

*high-fives Vin*


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post #52 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

I'd have to strongly disagree here. I just got a new MacBook Pro (the early '08 model, such a deal on Amazon right now), and the screen size difference is HUGE and instantly noticeable... for the better.

Yes, of course it's bigger. 13" vs 15". Hello? I can say the same thing about my 17" MBP vs the 15".

Quote:
On paper, it doesn't seem like that much- 13.3" vs 15.4". Only 2". But if you do the math, you see that you actually have 35% more screen area on the MBP, and it just feels... BETTER.

Same. 17" vs 15"...just 2".

Quote:
I don't feel cramped anymore, I don't have to put the dock on the side anymore to get enough usable vertical room, side-scrolling seems to be almost a thing of the past, it's just... bueno.

All three laptops feel cramped if you are used to a 24"+ monitor. Even at 1680x1050 for the 17" although it's not as bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Wow, you seem a bit confused here. I raised the point of what Mossberg thought of the MacBook Pro's battery life, not the MacBook's. Here are his comments on that:

Much worse is the loss of battery life [on the new MacBook Pro]. When used with its discrete graphics processor, the natural mode for the kind of audience at which the Pro is aimed, Apple claims it will get just 4 hours of battery life, versus the 5 hours it claimed for its predecessor, which also used a discrete graphics processor. Thats a whopping 20% reduction in battery life.

To compensate, Apple built in a second, alternate, graphics system, the same wimpier integrated graphics chip thats used in the lower-end MacBook. Only when you switch to this alternate chip a clumsy process that involves changing a preference in software can you hope to retain the old 5-hour battery life.

...for owners of the most recent prior MacBook Pro, the new models tradeoffs make an upgrade an iffy choice.


Oh, the name of Mossberg's article? "MacBook Pro Tradeoffs". Not much ambiguity there.

My bad. But frankly, the old MBP doesn't last a 4 hour plane trip without using power saver mode anyway. A 2nd battery or a power plug for a long trip is needed.

Quote:
LOL. Don't we all?

But seriously, think about it for a sec. Your basic point is that it's great for Apple to go with the smaller capacity batteries, since they've also reduced power draw... a point that is not true for the MacBook Pro, unless it's in 'wimpy graphics' mode. But fine, let's pretend for the moment that your assertion is correct.

What did we get out of the smaller cap battery? A very slightly thinner notebook. Oh yay.

Given the design of the laptop that 0.05" increase only matters where the battery is. Which means the difference is probably not 10 w/hr difference.

Quote:
What would we have gotten out of reduced power draw PLUS the use of the same ol' batteries they used to use? Perhaps another half hour or hour of battery life, at the expense of a very slightly thicker form factor? I'll take that.

Again, given the design might only be a few minutes. Plus the laptop is already heavier.

Quote:
And I bet a lot of other ppl would as well. You may hate the term 'form over function', but that seems to sum it up quite well.

Only in your opinion. Same with car analogies.

Quote:
You and Solip need to get your stories straight. Seems like half the ppl insist that Firewire is gone because of space issues, and half insist that space had nothing to do with it. Unless either one of you is a notebook engineer, seems all we can give you is a big shrug here.

We don't need to get any story straight given these are personal opinions.


Quote:
Gosh, no, not even close. MB Pro > MB by quite a bit... bigger screen, quite a bit higher-quality screen, expansion, Firewire, better graphics. To say that the MB is a low-cost MBP just because they look similar/both have unibody is to say a Toyota MR2 is a Ferrari just 'cuz they look kind of alike.

See? I even said it in your 'tired car analogy' language.

Except that the new MB now has competent graphics (as good as my X1600) and can drive a 30" ACD (when the adapter ships). CPU wise it is equivalent to the MBP. So it's not the difference between a MR2 and Ferrari but the difference between a Boxster-S and a 911.




Quote:
Whoa... you didn't notice that the new iPhone is 5 hours battery life vs the old iPhone's 8 hours? Wow. \

Have you tried it in edge mode? Lasts around 8 hours. Yes, 3G phones don't last as long as 2G phones from any maker.

Quote:
LOL, that's funny, especially considering that not long ago your typical phone was about double the thickness of the iPhone. Whatever did your "medium sized male hands" do then? Didja have to lift weights in order to strengthen your grip or something?

They were narrower. The iPhone is still wider than a Pearl. Increasing thickness would have made it an even bigger phone on TODAY'S market.

In any case, when I say that I mean using the phone 1 handed. I can reach most of the screen with my thumb comfortably. For example, to unlock my phone I need to enter my password.

Any wider or thicker would mean I can reach less and for folks with smaller hands the bigger it gets the more annoying it likely is.

Quote:
Of course, Apple doesn't have to go to the extreme of making inch-thick bricks... they just have to understand that going a couple of millimeters thicker on a cellphone is hardly noticeable, but another hour or two of battery life definitely is.

Except that Apple didn't change dimensions at all but added 3G which has always been known to be a battery killer. If you don't want 3G...turn it off.

Quote:
It is possible to have the best of both worlds, style and practicality, but to do so you have to not be so in love with one over the other as Apple currently seems to be.

Or you can understand where adding thickness matters and when it doesn't. A couple mm isn't going to add hours of performance so there's always a cut off somewhere.

Quote:
Depends what you consider "smaller". The iPhone is wider and taller than the Sony Walkman phones, simply due to the fact that it has a bigger screen. But in terms of thickness, the Walkman phones are actually a bit thicker, at least the one's I've looked at, like the W760 and W580.

iPhone 4.5" x 2.4" x 0.48" (115.5mm x 62.1mm x 12.3mm)
W590 3.9" x 1.9 x 0.6" (99 x47 x14 mm)

iPhone is bigger volume wise. How is this confusing? Making it 14 mm would make it even larger and heavier if you fill it with more battery. Plus the Sony's are sliders so they are smaller when stored.
post #53 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Not exactly. Steve is only partially right in his comment... some will defer, some won't. If your heart is truly set on a Mac and you can wait, you probably will.

Jobs is completely right and that's why I'm delaying the purchase of a replacement for my iBook. The product they released in lesser in all areas save the better chipset, therefore I will wait to give Steve my money until they release a product that is up to the standards expected of an Apple product. If I wanted a product such as the current Macbook, I would have bought a PC.
post #54 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

You and Solip need to get your stories straight. Seems like half the ppl insist that Firewire is gone because of space issues, and half insist that space had nothing to do with it. Unless either one of you is a notebook engineer, seems all we can give you is a big shrug here.

I'm not a notebook engineer but I am an engineer and I do have eyes and concept of spacial relations. You can look at the x-ray pic and iFixit breakdown and see that their is no room for that additional port unless Apple goes very un-Apple by including it in unusual places, like the other vendors do. I care not for the aesthetics for aesthetics sake so I would not care if they added a bunch of ports all over the damn thing. If they put the mic and headphone ports in the front edge or in front of the Kensington lock to make room for a 9-pin FW port (as going to dying 6-pin FW port makes no sense) wouldn't bother me a bit, even though it probably would require a shrinkage of the already shrinking battery.

Check it out for yourself and use Preview to show me where FW could be added without moving breaking Apple's cardinal rules. If only the optical drive had been removed, then their would be plenty of edge real estate for ports.
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post #55 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

Jobs is completely right and that's why I'm delaying the purchase of a replacement for my iBook.

Jobs is completely right for some, wrong for many others. But as I read on below, I see exactly what you're saying.


Quote:
The product they released in lesser in all areas save the better chipset, therefore I will wait to give Steve my money until they release a product that is up to the standards expected of an Apple product. If I wanted a product such as the current Macbook, I would have bought a PC.

Ouch. But I hear ya, I was in the exact same boat. The new MacBook was a disappointment to me as well- no Firewire, super-distracting mirror-y screen, poor-quality screen, 'meh' specs, heck, even the speakers sound kinda cheap. And I wasn't willing to cough up $2K to move up to a new MB Pro.

I was lucky that I had a good out in that the previous gen MB Pro is currently available for $700 less than I'd pay in a store. But how long will a deal that good be around? \

Sure hope Apple does better on the next MB rev. This rev felt like it was mainly about correcting the build quality mistakes of the previous gen PlasticBooks, getting the gfx ready for Snow Leopard, and not much else. Several things took a step backwards, but I obviously don't need to tell you that.


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post #56 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I'm not a notebook engineer but I am an engineer and I do have eyes and concept of spacial relations. You can look at the x-ray pic and iFixit breakdown and see that their is no room for that additional port unless Apple goes very un-Apple by including it in unusual places, like the other vendors do.


Ok, let's assume you're right (though I think you and Vin may be debating that 'til the end of time). Just reinforces my original 'form over function' point.


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post #57 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Ok, let's assume you're right (though I think you and Vin may be debating that 'til the end of time). Just reinforces my original 'form over function' point.

While I agree that Apple does make form an important aspect of their machines, there is quite a bit of engineering, that others don't do, that goes into them. If this was just about the function of the notebook in relation to normal use then Apple could do what others do and add ports on every side of the machine where they can find room. But they don't, they never have, and no Mac user should expect that from Apple. The FW400 issue has been a long time coming with a lot of evidence leading up to the current MB, so to be surprised by in surprises me.

PS: Have you looked at the break down and x-ray of the MB?
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post #58 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Jobs is completely right for some, wrong for many others. But as I read on below, I see exactly what you're saying.




Ouch. But I hear ya, I was in the exact same boat. The new MacBook was a disappointment to me as well- no Firewire, super-distracting mirror-y screen, poor-quality screen, 'meh' specs, heck, even the speakers sound kinda cheap. And I wasn't willing to cough up $2K to move up to a new MB Pro.

I was lucky that I had a good out in that the previous gen MB Pro is currently available for $700 less than I'd pay in a store. But how long will a deal that good be around? \

Sure hope Apple does better on the next MB rev. This rev felt like it was mainly about correcting the build quality mistakes of the previous gen PlasticBooks, getting the gfx ready for Snow Leopard, and not much else. Several things took a step backwards, but I obviously don't need to tell you that.


...

That's the thing, having checked it out at best buy about a month ago, there are aspects that I like. I don't really mind glossy screens myself, but I can see how others could. In my experiences with the iMac, the lighting conditions that would cause any problems would make my matte screen ibook pretty hard to see as well. Then there's new track pad. I much prefer it over the one on my iBook. Its nice and move in operations and the corner for the right click is very natural. If they had kept the thickness the same for the firewire, longer battery life, and easy access to the memory, I would snap up this machine in a second. But having gone through the multiple motherboards with my iBook and the teething problems with iMac and Leopard, I can't depend on Apple reliability the way I once did. Firewire and Target disk mode have proven to be very useful. If they were able to do a USB TDM using the transfer cables that are out there, I'd be inclined to rethink my objections.
post #59 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Yes, of course it's bigger. 13" vs 15". Hello? I can say the same thing about my 17" MBP vs the 15".

Ugh. What you said:

the difference between 13" and 15" isn't that large.

What I said:

the difference is HUGE

The debate isn't over whether 15" > 13"... we obviously are both aware of that. The debate is over how significant the difference is.

Btw, didn't "Hello?" die out in the '90s?


Quote:
Same. 17" vs 15"...just 2".

Don't know how we went from 13" vs 15" to 15" vs 17", but the whole "it's just 2 inches" thing doesn't hold up so well upon closer inspection. Because a 2" screen isn't just 13-15% bigger (i.e. a straight 13 vs 15 or 15 vs 17 comparison)... it's the diagonal measurement squared bigger. You really notice it. Even I was shocked at how much a diff it's made.


Quote:
All three laptops feel cramped if you are used to a 24"+ monitor. Even at 1680x1050 for the 17" although it's not as bad.

Something like 60% of Mac purchases are notebooks. Do they all buy 24"+ external monitors? I doubt it. Pros and the rich do, many others don't.


Quote:
My bad. But frankly, the old MBP doesn't last a 4 hour plane trip without using power saver mode anyway. A 2nd battery or a power plug for a long trip is needed.

Seems like excuses to me. Apple shouldn't be going backwards on battery life simply for the sake of a small aesthetic difference.


Quote:
Given the design of the laptop that 0.05" increase only matters where the battery is. Which means the difference is probably not 10 w/hr difference.

Thing is, the battery isn't particularly thick either. Perhaps a half-inch. So even a small increase in thickness should result in significant volume/capacity gains. Remember the previous gen MB Pro? 1.0" thick, yet it had a full-size, 20%-better-than-current-capacity battery.


Quote:
Again, given the design might only be a few minutes. Plus the laptop is already heavier.

See above. Seems like Apple already proved you wrong back in early '08.


Quote:
Only in your opinion. Same with car analogies.

A barely noticeable aesthetic diff vs significantly better functionality? LOL, I think if you took a poll, it wouldn't even be that close.

I mean, ok, some ppl just want something to look at, not use. But I don't think that's the majority of us Mac users. We're do-ers, not poseurs.


Quote:
We don't need to get any story straight given these are personal opinions.

Talk to Solip. His latest post seems to be pretty emphatic on the point that you're wrong, and he feels he has proof.


Quote:
Except that the new MB now has competent graphics (as good as my X1600) and can drive a 30" ACD (when the adapter ships). CPU wise it is equivalent to the MBP. So it's not the difference between a MR2 and Ferrari but the difference between a Boxster-S and a 911.

Except that graphically, the MB Pro still whomps it, plus it has Firewire, a bigger screen, a higher-quality screen, expansion, better speakers, etc. So maybe we're talking 'MR2 with a custom exhaust' vs a Ferrari.


Quote:
Have you tried it in edge mode? Lasts around 8 hours. Yes, 3G phones don't last as long as 2G phones from any maker.

So, ppl are supposed to buy a 3G iPhone, and then use it mostly/only in 2.5G mode? Kinda defeats the whole point of the product, but, uhhhh... ok, sure.


Quote:
They were narrower. The iPhone is still wider than a Pearl. Increasing thickness would have made it an even bigger phone on TODAY'S market.

Sigh. You're too limited in your experience here, it seems. The iPhone is wider than the Pearl, sure. But compare it to something like the Blackberry Curve, which is VERY popular. The Curve is just as wide as the iPhone, and... *gasp*... 0.6" thick, about 20% thicker than the iPhone. Yet the thing still sells like hotcakes, and with little or no whining about what a 'beast' it is to hold.

Quote:
In any case, when I say that I mean using the phone 1 handed. I can reach most of the screen with my thumb comfortably. For example, to unlock my phone I need to enter my password.

Any wider or thicker would mean I can reach less and for folks with smaller hands the bigger it gets the more annoying it likely is.

See above... much ado about nothing. I don't have big hands, and I can't see how the iPhone being a fraction thicker would hurt my grip.

Look at it this way... if you were to wrap a tape measure around the belt of the current iPhone, it'd be 5.8" around. Increase the thickness of the iPhone to 0.6" (same as the Pearl and many competing smartphones), and the 'belt' would then be 6.0"... a 3% increase. Doesn't really affect my ability to wrap my hand around the phone to any significant extent.

What you're complaining about is the iPhone's width more than anything else. Not much can be done there, unless Apple decides to ship a smaller screen, and I doubt they would.


Quote:
Except that Apple didn't change dimensions at all but added 3G which has always been known to be a battery killer. If you don't want 3G...turn it off.

Ppl didn't buy a 3G phone to turn 3G off, lol. But you can have your cake and eat it too if you design around the increased power draw. Apple didn't, really.


Quote:
Or you can understand where adding thickness matters and when it doesn't. A couple mm isn't going to add hours of performance so there's always a cut off somewhere.

Pretty sure you're off here. Do you realize how small cellphone batteries are? The one in my midrange flip is only about a quarter of an inch thick. The one in the iPhone isn't much thicker, because the iPhone itself is under a half-inch thick. So yes, even a few more millimeters would make a significant diff in capacity.


Quote:
iPhone 4.5" x 2.4" x 0.48" (115.5mm x 62.1mm x 12.3mm)
W590 3.9" x 1.9 x 0.6" (99 x47 x14 mm)

iPhone is bigger volume wise. How is this confusing?

What about the W810?

iPhone 4.5" x 2.4" x 0.48" - Total volume: 5.18 cubic inches
W810 3.94" x 1.81" x 0.77" - Total volume: 5.49 cubic inches

So actually, in this instance, the Walkman phone is bigger.

It's 'confusing' in that there are several Walkman models, and that even volume-wise, some are smaller than the iPhone, and some are larger. But all of them, that I've seen, are thicker.


Quote:
Making it 14 mm would make it even larger and heavier if you fill it with more battery.

14mm isn't thick, heck the Blackberry Storm is that thick, and ppl are lined up around the block to buy it. The BB Curve is *thicker* than that, has sold very well, and no one complains about it being a chunk.

Methinks you've just bought into Steve's RDF a little too strongly. Let's use a 'woman' analogy here (since I'm obviously sick of cars)... would you rather date Calista Flockhart, or Katherine Heigl?

Sometimes, a lil' bit thicker is just better.

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post #60 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

That's the thing, having checked it out at best buy about a month ago, there are aspects that I like. I don't really mind glossy screens myself, but I can see how others could. In my experiences with the iMac, the lighting conditions that would cause any problems would make my matte screen ibook pretty hard to see as well. Then there's new track pad. I much prefer it over the one on my iBook. Its nice and move in operations and the corner for the right click is very natural. If they had kept the thickness the same for the firewire, longer battery life, and easy access to the memory, I would snap up this machine in a second. But having gone through the multiple motherboards with my iBook and the teething problems with iMac and Leopard, I can't depend on Apple reliability the way I once did. Firewire and Target disk mode have proven to be very useful. If they were able to do a USB TDM using the transfer cables that are out there, I'd be inclined to rethink my objections.


Can't argue with any of that, except I'll say, with the new MacBook, you have to lay the screen back almost as far as it can go in order to get good contrast, and if you have overhead lighting, you WILL catch it in the mirror... err, I mean screen. \

But on Apple's seemingly decreasing reliability... yeah, +1000, you're dead-on.

My gf's PlasticBook has screen problems -it'll go to half brightness within seconds of being opened, for no reason, and it's already had to be serviced at the Apple Store for some sort of mobo problem (though to Apple's credit, it was a bit beyond warranty, yet they did not charge).

My old iBook G4? Also screen problems... sometimes the screen will go out altogether, and I have to shut the iBook and re-open it in order to get the screen back. Bad connector? I guess.

Even my new MB Pro has significant flaws. I just noticed today that the screen back is slightly bowed... when it's closed, I can easily see that there's quite a bit larger of a gap between the screen and at the notebook at the corners than at the center. Sighting down the edge... yep, it's bowed.

Don't seem to remember Apple quality being like this early in the decade (my Indigo iMac never ever had a prob), but who knows what's up these days. I think Steve likes his margins, let's just say that. \


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post #61 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

My gf's PlasticBook has screen problems -it'll go to half brightness within seconds of being opened...

Turn off the ambient light sensor auto adjustment. I thought I had a problem too until I unchecked it. System Preferences » Display.
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post #62 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Turn off the ambient sensor auto adjustment. I thought I had a problem too until I unchecked it.

Thanks Solip, we'll give that a try.

Is it just me, or are Apple's light sensors way too touchy? I'm typing right now with a window behind me, and the sun is going in and out of the clouds, so my screen is yo-yo-ing in brightness quite a lot, much more than I need it to.

Ditto whenever I move around much at all... guess I'm blocking/unblocking some of the light with my head.

What would be awesome would be, instead of just an on/off checkbox for ambient light-sensing, there was a sensitivity slider or somesuch.


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post #63 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Ugh. What you said:

the difference between 13" and 15" isn't that large.

What I said:

the difference is HUGE

Right. The difference isn't that large whether you go 13" to 15" or 15" to 17".

Quote:
The debate isn't over whether 15" > 13"... we obviously are both aware of that. The debate is over how significant the difference is.

Btw, didn't "Hello?" die out in the '90s?

If you're old enough to remember then it still works.

Quote:
Don't know how we went from 13" vs 15" to 15" vs 17", but the whole "it's just 2 inches" thing doesn't hold up so well upon closer inspection. Because a 2" screen isn't just 13-15% bigger (i.e. a straight 13 vs 15 or 15 vs 17 comparison)... it's the diagonal measurement squared bigger. You really notice it. Even I was shocked at how much a diff it's made.

The screen size itself isn't the issue. It's the resolution you're complaining about. 1280 x 800 is smaller than 1440 x 900 which is smaller than 1680 x 1050.

I find 1440x900 about as tight as 1280x800. The difference is 160x100 pixels. Yes, it's about the area of the dock. You can hide the dock. I leave it up but I honestly don't use it much for status info that moving the cursor would be a bother.

Quote:
Something like 60% of Mac purchases are notebooks. Do they all buy 24"+ external monitors? I doubt it. Pros and the rich do, many others don't.

Even a 22" display is typically 1680x1050 or 1920x1080. The Dell S2209W is 1920x1080 for $239. The 23" is $299. Hell, the 24"+ line starts at $349.

Quote:
Seems like excuses to me. Apple shouldn't be going backwards on battery life simply for the sake of a small aesthetic difference.

Again, it all depends on the amount of battery life you gain from a slightly different design.

Quote:
Thing is, the battery isn't particularly thick either. Perhaps a half-inch. So even a small increase in thickness should result in significant volume/capacity gains. Remember the previous gen MB Pro? 1.0" thick, yet it had a full-size, 20%-better-than-current-capacity battery.

Could they have added a bigger battery to the MBP? Sure. Would the MBP be bigger and heavier? Yes. Would people then bitch about that? Yes.

Quote:
See above. Seems like Apple already proved you wrong back in early '08.

With a different design that doesn't make HDD access all that easy. Which is a shame since it would be nice to have a bigger HDD on my MBP.

Quote:
A barely noticeable aesthetic diff vs significantly better functionality? LOL, I think if you took a poll, it wouldn't even be that close.

Prove that it will be significantly better battery life and I will agree. Not just handwaving but real significant advantage based on increasing the MBP battery by 0.05" in thickness as you suggested.

Quote:
I mean, ok, some ppl just want something to look at, not use. But I don't think that's the majority of us Mac users. We're do-ers, not poseurs.

Nice try at an insult. Want a counter example? How about Nokia?

http://conversations.nokia.com/home/...oesnt-mat.html

"A related question flying around is why the heck we didn't just design the N96 with the 1200 mAh battery in the first place. Well, from what I'm told, that would have affected the real and apparent thickness of the product and maybe dropped the kick-stand. Based on market feedback, making the product thicker would have impacted seriously on sales. That's why it was important to make sure the talk-time and standby time were on par with other devices, but that the video and music playback time be superior within this size and power constraint.* "

Tell you what...Android is out there. I can put you in touch with some Chinese companies. Why don't you make an iPhone killer? It's just a matter of not being blinded by form over function right?

Because it sure seems like the Nokia engineers and designers are afflicted with that same "form over function" bug as the Apple engineers and designers.

Quote:
Talk to Solip. His latest post seems to be pretty emphatic on the point that you're wrong, and he feels he has proof.

Don't speak for Solip. We disagree on emphasis. I feel that Apple left out including FW for both market segment issues and size. He feels it was mostly size with FW not being important to the market segment.

He's right, with the current design, FW doesn't fit well. But like the N96, you CAN redesign the MB to be bigger. Or no optical, or whatever. The difference in our opinions was that he thinks it's because FW was unimportant. I think that they didn't want FW. The difference it more a nuance than anything else.

Quote:
Except that graphically, the MB Pro still whomps it, plus it has Firewire, a bigger screen, a higher-quality screen, expansion, better speakers, etc. So maybe we're talking 'MR2 with a custom exhaust' vs a Ferrari.

Of course is still whomps it. The difference is that the MB graphics is now good enough. As opposed to seriously weak. The other differences are of far lesser importance given that there was always a strong desire for a smaller MBP. Those users are now satisfied.

But whatever. If you can't even acknowledge that the MB is so much better than it was before from a graphics perspective you're simply being argumentative.

Quote:
So, ppl are supposed to buy a 3G iPhone, and then use it mostly/only in 2.5G mode? Kinda defeats the whole point of the product, but, uhhhh... ok, sure.

No, you said the time was cut in half and due to form over function. I said it's because of 3G not "form over function".

Quote:
Sigh. You're too limited in your experience here, it seems. The iPhone is wider than the Pearl, sure. But compare it to something like the Blackberry Curve, which is VERY popular. The Curve is just as wide as the iPhone, and... *gasp*... 0.6" thick, about 20% thicker than the iPhone. Yet the thing still sells like hotcakes, and with little or no whining about what a 'beast' it is to hold.

"The size isn't as large as I'd expected. Admittedly I'm coming to the N96 from the E90, but I was still pleasantly surprised. The N96 is shorter and easier to hold than the Apple iPhone, which I also have."

http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/news/..._the_Nokia.php

Size is reviewed and commented on in phones so size matters.

Quote:
Pretty sure you're off here. Do you realize how small cellphone batteries are? The one in my midrange flip is only about a quarter of an inch thick. The one in the iPhone isn't much thicker, because the iPhone itself is under a half-inch thick. So yes, even a few more millimeters would make a significant diff in capacity.

Talk to Nokia as well I guess. And every other company that has released a new product with a smaller battery than the last product.

Quote:
What about the W810?

iPhone 4.5" x 2.4" x 0.48" - Total volume: 5.18 cubic inches
W810 3.94" x 1.81" x 0.77" - Total volume: 5.49 cubic inches

So actually, in this instance, the Walkman phone is bigger.

Yah...released in 2006 and not listed as a current phone for Sony.

The smaller W960i has 3 hours talk time, 300 hours standby and 2 hours video vs 5 hours talk time, 300 hourse standby and 7 hours video playback. Or in other words, less or same as the iPhone 3G.

You should tell Sony to stop being form over function as well.

The Xperia X1 has better times and is 4.33 x 2.09 x 0.66 so is larger. But Sony has multiple models and Apple 1. So Apple designs differently and more successfully given the iPhone sells more than RIMs entire lineup. Perhaps the Storm will fix that. Probably not.

Quote:
14mm isn't thick, heck the Blackberry Storm is that thick, and ppl are lined up around the block to buy it. The BB Curve is *thicker* than that, has sold very well, and no one complains about it being a chunk.

"However, this device isnt without flaws. The Storm is larger and heavier than the iPhone 3G and it lacks Wi-Fi."

"Youll definitely notice the BlackBerry Storm in your pocket. Measuring 4.4 x 2.5 x 0.6 inches and weighing 5.5 ounces (versus 4.5 x 2.4 x 0.5 inches and 4.7 ounces for the iPhone 3G), the Storm is bulkier and heavier than we would like, especially since it has a smaller display (3.3 vs. 3.5 inches) than the iPhone 3G."

http://www.laptopmag.com/review/cell...rry-storm.aspx

Oh...hey look: 5.5 hours talk time, 360 hours standby. Damn those Blackberry engineers going form over function. Why couldn't they make the battery bigger and get 10 hours talk time?

Quote:
Methinks you've just bought into Steve's RDF a little too strongly.

Laptopmag too I guess.
post #64 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipism

Turn off the ambient light sensor auto adjustment. I thought I had a problem too until I unchecked it. System Preferences » Display.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Thanks Solip, we'll give that a try.
...


Sigh, no go. Apparently my gf's PlasticBook doesn't have the ambient light sensor. So, that's not it. \


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