Apple's new MacBooks have built-in copy protection measures - Page 4

Ahhh... what's the principle again that says that thread has ended its usefulness at the moment Hitler or Nazi's are envoked?

Yeah... making you honor copyrights and licensing agreements is right up there with gassing millions.

As far as I recall, what you are talking about is a feature of the AACS copy protection, which can be set to downgrade the resolution when a Blu-ray or HD-DVD is played back over a non HDCP-protected data link, not HDCP as of itself.




If I understand this correctly, since the decode stage is before the capture device, you would be able to capture a video stream with a 1Gbps bitrate (1080p24), plus the soundtrack? Granted, you would get a perfect bit-for-bit copy, but the file size might be… let's say impractical.

If this is what it takes to bring me Blu-ray on the Mac platform, I say bring it. It's a step in the right direction. (Also, don't buy movies off iTunes store, Apple doesn't support all that much of MPEG-4 AVC, better quality can be found elsewhere.)

I currently use my Blacbook Core Duo w/ Miglia TVMini HD Tuner (via USB), connected to a Sony VPL-AW15 (is HDCP complient, however, only has 1 HDMI port (used for DishDH)) projector via. VGA. Why would they put a high resolution VGA input on this device?? For computer use you say? Hmm, so if I bought a NEW computer, are you telling me I must pay this "Apple Tax" and go buy me a HDMI switcher (HDCP compliant none the less), and also another highly expensive HDMI cable? Just to play videos from my new computer to my EXISTING HD setup. How much would that cost me in regular guy dollars (I'm not going to search for hours for the best deal)? I figure about $80+.

This would've made more sense of Apple would have done the right thing in the first place and just put a regular sized HDMI port on their damn machines. Then when they transitioned from FW to USB 3.0 (like they should have. They could also transition to DP from HDMI (if it is ever really going to be worth it...I doubt it).

Is it possible to bypass this crap with software?

Well I spose it's gotta be, so I can't say I'm that bothered. Just involves a bit of tinkering.

This is "proof" that HDCP "works"*.

Such a device would not be allowed to be HDCP-compliant, as it would do the very thing that HDCP is there to prevent. Even if the manufacturer were to crack HDCP, it would be very easy to shut them or their sales down due to patent laws, and the DMCA/equivalents in many countries.

If there wasn't HDCP, and the signals were sent in the clear, there wouldn't be any problem with making such a recorder, and they would likely be plentiful.

For home-video use, HD camcorders do exist, but few people would prefer to use a standalone device rather than a computer to edit/archive home videos anyway. So there is little demand for a non-HDCP high-def recorder.

*By "works", I mean "stifles innovation".

because they are afraid that you could hook up a (digital) recorder to the output device and thus record a movie.

The real issue is the blurb about DVD-Audio: all the high-end DACs hook up over standard fire-wire and have regular core-audio drivers. That means a $2k high-end DAC can't play high-def audio, because of the lack of HDCP, and we have to use the el-cheapo crap built into Apple hardware. Barf!

Hey, all those crying for BlyRay support on the Mac: this is the stuff you have been asking for: a BAG OF HURT (to quote SJ himself)

I like your point of view, it's like the other side of mine. I must say I tried as a kid to copy tapes and it didn't work. So when I went about copying a DVD I didn't use another DVD recorder. I just stripped it of it's CP. Apparently that is too much for most people. They, the industry, knows this. So what they do is add a copy protection that doesn't matter, because the people that DL movies and music will always be there, always finding loop holes. All CP does it force an upgrade in equipment for people who already follow the law.

BTW I'm pretty sure a firmware hack will come along within the next six months.

Also, I don't condone the copying of movies for sale or profit. It should only be done in cases such as backing up and being able to view via handheld.

I think either Apple will "fix" their miniDVI to VGA/SVideo connector and/or software or these alternatives will become ubiquitous. Like many others in the thread I think it's partly a software bug - the video should downscale to 480p - the HDCP restrictions are only supposed to be enforced in a pure HD path. Ie: you cannot connect a HD video source (MBP) to a HD Video recorder (BluRay), but there is no restriction about connecting a HD video source to a non-HD display since there has been a loss in quality.

A quick google found a few "HDCP compliant" DVI to VGA or SVideo adapters already available, but we need some reviews to be sure they do indeed fix the problem, eg:
http://www.KVMStuff.com/dvi-d-to-vga...vga-converter/

At least what this article has done is show us all what combination of movie/MBP can be used to "test" which adapters "fix" the problem.

Apart from the software "bug" I don't blame Apple for this - it's just the paranoid nature of those who license the content.

I am a recent (last five years) Apple user. What pushed me to this side was MS' use of DRM in the bowels of their OS. If Apple is using HDCP in their newest machines I can only take that to mean it has no respect for its user community. And if Apple won't respect the community, I don't see the community returning much respect either. Psystar would never have gotten my business in the past... but if this HDCP garbage is true, now I'll consider it (and encourage others to do the same).

"ArsTechnica reports that Apple has apparently acquired a license for the technology and is now using it across its DisplayPort-enabled MacBook lines to to prevent transmission of purchased iTunes content to devices that don't include support for HDCP."

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles..._measures.html

Well, if you feel that way, why aren't you busy hunting down the producers of 'Seinfeld'?

After all, they used the term 'Soup Nazi' quite liberally. How DARE they!

Lighten up. You'll live longer.


...

The requirement of HDCP for high definition digital video outputs is a given; there shouldn't be an argument there as it is standard practice on HD-DVD players, Blu-Ray players, and all new computers for playback of copywritten HD video content. Let's us not debate this, but instead focus on the primary issue here!

The real isssue here is that HDCP is only intended to restrict the digital output of specifically high definition material. The idea being that they want to keep people from being able to make a perfect high-definition copy by intercepting the video stream to a recording device.

Therefore:

If you attempt to play HDCP-protected High Definition (aka 720P/1080P) content on a display that is:

a) connected via DVI or HDMI AND does not support HDCP technology

*OR*

b) connected via an analog cable (RCA composite, RGB component, S-Video)

Then the HD video source is supposed to be down-sampled to standard definition 480P and transmitted normally. In other words, iTunes should still play the content --- just not in high definition.

Obviously something is wrong, since in this guy's case with the projector, iTunes actively refused to play the film at all. It should have just downsampled the quality to standard definition and played back like any other unprotected video content. Appleinsider should write this IMPORTANT fact into this article. Someone needs to contact Apple and tell them of this inproper behavior of iTunes. I find it very hard to believe that this is the intended behavior of iTunes (aka it won't down-sample HD video to SD for display on non-HDCP compliant (or analog connected) monitors. That would be contrary to every other implementation of HDCP and probably contrary to the HDCP licensing agreement itself.

With all due respect will you also boycott all BluRay players, HD Cable Boxes, HD Satellites, PS3's, XBoxes and anything else providing HD content? If not you are coming off a bit hypocritical. If apple wants to deliver HD content, thy have to play by HD rules. Simple as that. as a side note, I doubt Psystar will even be in business by the time apple implements this across their product line.

If everybody else is jumping off the bridge you might as well too??? That's all you have to say.
The real issue is HDCP on my machine. Any CP that in introduced is repressive to the community. Just because something is standard practice (say, racial profiling) doesn't make it right. It inhibits our rights as individuals. It is also used, as a practice, to force technological upgrade by the end user. It does little to stifle piracy.

As a T-wolves fan (NBA for you unknowers) I have always been a T-wolves apologist. It seems though this year there are no excuses, I am tired of making them for the team, I can no longer apologize for them.
Apple, I have apologized for, countless times, they have been the ones to fight the evil of CP. It seems though I can no longer apologize for a company that is no longer looking out for it's LOYAL customer base. As soon as the switchers came, guess what Apple became...a switcher. It's like having a beautiful Mac Pro, but on the inside it's slowly rotting away to Windows.

I did say leading the way "with" iTunes, not "on" iTunes but I guess I can see how something like that can easily be confused. The whole copy protection thing can be confusing for the consumer.

No it's not shocking that Apple is enabling HDCP on their iTunes movies. It is actually very enlightening. The consumers should know that the HD content they buy just may not work with the equipment they own. Buyers beware.

That is not required of an HDCP link. HDCP is merely encryption for the data transport stream. It is, however, as I mentioned before, a feature that can, if the studio wants to, be enabled for AACS encrypted video. And it still doesn't resize to 480p, it resizes to a maximum of 960×540. iTunes Store video is encrypted with FairPlay DRM, not the AACS encryption scheme used for Blu-ray and HD-DVD.

The answer is pretty simple. If you don't like it, don't buy the content. Buy the DVD or a Blu-Ray player. People bitch and moan about this stuff, and buy it anyway.

Yeah, I thought the image contraint token was a part of HDCP? It really doesn't seem right that the output isn't downgraded to 480p. The movie packaging or the equipment really should have a simple guide to copy protection they implement. A consumer isn't going to read 10 pages of technical copy protection data. If I bought a movie and it wouldn't play on my equipment, I would work hard to return it and not buy that again until it got sorted out.

I'm as light as air.
I'm not the one who invoked the Nazi slur in defense of our god-given right to steal movies.

No, seriously. Lighten up.

Good point - just because it's normal doesn't mean that it's right. DRM should be working to enforce users' fair rights as well as content proverders' fair rights. And so what if the studio is forcing users to accept Terms and Conditions which abridge their fair use rights?

You could say that people must agree to these terms before they purchase the content and therefore it's okay, but even still the terms that they want to enforce don't seem fair to normal people (like not being able to show a movie on any screen you'd like for normal personal viewing) and there is no option, often, to purchase the content under different terms which are more acceptable.

I always hated even DVD region coding because it prevents me from doing fair and normal things (such as renting a DVD while in a foreign country and playing it on my own computer).
I am upset that DRM is becoming more pervasive, and especially because most people will accept this fact without too much complaint.

Mendosi

Again, ITC is an AACS feature. iTunes Store movies are not AACS protected.

DRM is an annoyance, but it's something that we, the consumers a whole, did to ourselves by stealing their content in the first place. Surely not everyone is guilty, but there are plenty that are and the situation is rampant. Unfortunately this affects everyone. I can't believe that anyone would say that the content providers don't have a right to protect to their content. If they are a public company, then they have a duty to take measures to protect their shareholder's investments. It's a PITA, but it's not something that can be avoided so long as the majority seek to utilize their content.

rubbish, Apple drives the DRM to ensure ITMS content can only be played on the device of THEIR choosing....ipod.

Oh jesus... I didn't say I supported DRM (or HDCP for that matter), what I DID say was that a very important issue, namely that of iTunes store HD video content not being down-converted to play on an analog or non-HDCP display was being lost in the discussion about the merits of DRM!


I understand what HDCP is and that AACS is a different standard that utilizes HDCP. However, nearly every article, editorial, or information sheet regarding HDCP says that it should not/does not have any affect on transmitting video over an analog connection. Likewise, it is almost universally implied that legacy digital displays utilizing DVI or HDMI WITHOUT HDCP support should be able to receive the content, just not at the native resolution/quality. Regardless of the fact that iTunes uses fairplay instead of AACS for content protection, it should still output downsampled SD video over unprotected display connections when attempting to play HDCP protected material...

I just cannot believe that Apple would willingly omit the functionality that allows legacy devices to display iTunes video. They really want to invite the enormous backlash when millions of people with non-HDCP displays, projectors, and HDTVs can't play the brand new movie they just bought!

Can someone tell me what the policy is for the Xbox 360, playstation 3, Amazon's tv device, the AppleTV, and other digital download services that playback HD video. I can't believe that all of these devices would block people from watching video downloads on non-HDCP displays. It's almost certain that they just downconvert it..

well seeing as Apple and MS combined have more than 97% of the world's computer market. Apple has 70% of the portable media market and MS has the 360, if they jointly got together and said NO to DRM then maybe the studios would listen?

the genie won't go back in the bottle and they'll NEVER stop this.

I'm sorry, what? We did this? On the contrary, people wouldn't have an incentive to do this if they weren't so paranoid. This goes back to LONG before any current standards to the first VCRs, back before anyone was pirating anything.

That said, even if you were right (and you aren't) they do a monumentally terrible job of "protecting" their content. The only people that this sort of thing inhibits are people who try to be honest. The DVD pirates over in China have no problems bypassing their locks, and neither does anyone who spends 5 minutes looking for a way around on Google. By using absurd DRM that doesn't work, they force honest people to do illegal things to get the simplest of functionality, creating more "pirates". It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

I think what they are trying to get at is that, at least on every Windows PC I've ever seen, HDCP ONLY functions on digital connections. I saw this first hand when I played back HD-DVDs on my friends PC. If we plugged the DVI cable into the monitor with his HDCP compliant video card, the software would only display a black screen. If we plugged the VGA cable in, the video would work.

This is also true of the Xbox 360. I know this isn't the ICT because, to my knowledge, no studio has been brave/stupid enough to activate that feature on their discs yet. The point is, something is off about Apple's implementation of HDCP. It shouldn't be active over a VGA connection.

this would be a fair argument if DRM was useful in combating piracy but it's not.

In fact piracy has actually INCREASED since DRM was implemented. The only people bringing anything on themselves is the industry.

Give us the content at a fair price with minimal restrictions as to how we use it (piracy aside) and we'll buy it..... millions of us do already!

In life in general there are bad guys, criminals, always has been, always will be.... nothing you can do about it...some people are just like that.

Piracy is the same.... SOME people will always do it, just that stomping on all the legitimate users in a futile attempt to stop piracy is not the best way to do it.

wise up...

Exactly. The iTMS is proof of that. For several keynotes after the release of the store, Jobs noted that piracy figures were markedly down once people had a way to buy music the way they wanted at a fair price.

Yes to all of the above. I will boycott all of these technologies, and encourage others to do the same.

"As simple as that.."

And with all due respect, business arrangements are not laws of physics. They can be made, broken, and remade without much difficulty. Apple, like Microsoft, is giving in to Hollywood's silly and short-sighted demands. They don't "have to play by HD rules" if they decided they didn't want to.

The data points to the internet being the cause and effect for increased piracy, not DRM.

iTunes plus can be played on anything.


They cannot jointly say no. Apple nor MS own the movie and music industries or the content.

The more they take anti-piracy measures, the more they drive people towards it.

This is similar to some of my frustrations doing a screen grab. If the DVD Player program is running, I can't do a system screen grab of anything or anywhere on the screen, even if the playback window is covered, hidden or minimized. I don't really see a decent reason for the DVD format or the movie industry to object to that, it's just a single frame and it's certainly not worth the work to piece together a frame-by-frame reconstruction of the movie.

I may be completely wrong, but recall reading that the DVD consortium had major issues with OS apps for playing DVDs. I think this was a concession to get native DVD playback.

edit: This Wikipedia page seems to back up Apple disabled screen capture to potentially keep itself out from being sued if OS X screen captures were being made of copyrighted content. Were other, less resturcitve apps being sued when this was released?

•

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD_Player_(Apple)

It's time to realize ALL computer companies hate us. Apple just makes nice looking UIs and OK boxes to put it in cause they want it for themselves. They only sell it to get rich.

Message to Apple Employee paid to read message boards:
People don't switch from windows because they liked it. Stop trying to make it more windowsy for them. We don't need CP. For heaven sakes look how much we pay for these below average machines. If we BUY a movie from iTunes I'm going to expect it to play at full resolution no matter what I use to display it. If I'm going to copy it, it's going out the firewi...I mean USB port.

Video through a VGA connection should display at full resolution regardless of HDCP. You see, it's impossible to make a bit for bit digital copy, (also no audio) via VGA, as VGA is ANALOG . Thus, stop messin with us.

In the terms and agreements:
"(aa) Movies are viewable only on your Mac or Windows computer (using iTunes 7.6 or later), iPhone, iPod touch, iPod nano (3rd or 4th generation), iPod classic, or on TVs using your Apple TV. Movies in high definition resolution (HD) are viewable only on TVs using your Apple TV and must be downloaded directly to your Apple TV. Movies are viewable only on one device at a time."

NO Apple!!! I guess I technically I already agreed, but noooo.
Don't tell me where I have to watch it and on how many screens I can have it on.

CBS let's me record (via USB HD TUNER) CSI in HD to my Firewi...USB Drive (yes I know ATSC doesn't have HDCP, ....so why should anything else?). I can then play it back on my macbook via the mini-dvi to VGA adapter (to proj) and mirror the image on my macbook screen. That's two devices at once if you didn't notice. Did you notice how nice CBS was, to let me record it to my drive, and, to give me awesome mpeg-2 files to view wherever I want later?

In actual fact, the teacher John in the article couldn't play the movie because the Sanyo projector is too outdated. Most projectors these days would play the movie no problem. Many people here complained about the DRM measures in the postings are no getting the whole idea. Most of them would encounter no problems playing anything they purchased from ITS or other places. It only posed problems when they tried projecting to an old outdated projector or dispay. (most of our TVs are flat panels, isn't it? They should play well. Older TVs don't even have VGA ports).

I wouldn't complain my macbook that it couldn't accept serial mouse, parallel printers. Why complain here?

If you are worried about using a Tuner to watch Free-to-Air HDTV, that should not be protected, and you should be very much free to use a VGA connection for that. HDCP should only be a factor if you wanted to watch a protected video, like Blu-Ray or now iTunes.

A quick search shows that projector also has analog component inputs. I have the ViP622 HD DVR which also has component outputs, and does not use HDCP. I believe this is true of all Dish HD receivers. You could use the cheaper component connections, and free up the HDMI port (and cable) for your future computer or other device.

General question: Do people object more to A) Having to buy new cables/adapters, or B) DRM by any name?

There is a difference between incompatibility caused by copy protection and incompatibility caused by not supporting a technology, and I don't think you understand that distinction. Obviously, the VGA technology is still supported by Apple, but the problem is that the system does not allow the use of that port for protected media. If Apple thought that VGA was not worth supporting, I doubt they would continue to support it at all.

This really p!!ses me off, and beyond the idealogical issues of DRM is bad.

We have a conference room with remote video equipment. We run the video over CAT-5 cables with fairly expensive VGA adapters. The video equipment has capture all signals and reprocess them for teleconferences and presentations to make it as easy to use as possible for the end users.

Doing the same with DVI requires fiber optics, and doesn't offer better resolutions.

HDCP basically makes a Mac an unpredictable element in the system and fairly useless for me.

Maybe my 2006 MBP is going to have to be my last Mac.