Apple's new MacBooks have built-in copy protection measures - Page 5

What media could you possibly be using in the conference room that would require HDCP?

Many people on WINDOWS are outputting HD DVD and Blu Ray Via VGA
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=995997

THe XBOX 360 fully supports 1080p via VGA

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/xbox360/hdtv.htm

Via Component:
Games: 1080p (though most are native 720p upscaled)
HD DVD: 1080i ONLY.
SD DVD: 480p ONLY

Via VGA:
Games: 1080p (though most are native 720p upscaled)
HD DVD: 1080p
SD DVD: 1080p (upscaled)

NO. This is a solution in search of a problem. There is no real proof out there that has not been widely rebuked that consumer copying of movies leads to reduced sales.

What the studios want is more CONTROL of the content. DRM gives them more control over the consumer-- ways to charge by the viewing or duration of time, or any other nefarious objectives they might have in time.

Commercial piracy costs the studios money, and no DRM solution has stopped this problem yet; there is always a way around it.

DRM is not a consumer friendly or innovation friendly "feature." Why should you pay twice to rent a blue-ray disk for the home and watch it on your iPod? Sure there may be software bundled to allow that specific feature, but what about the next innovative device?

Making matters worse, hardware level DRM moves ownership and control of equipment you purchase to others with whom you have no legal ties.

Simple example is if someone wants to play a movie they rented from iTunes from their laptop.

Bigger concern is that there is a problem displaying a powerpoint with a laptop that has flakey HDCP included.

Because they found some hack around HDCP doesn't mean they are supposed to be doing it.

You run into this potential problem with Blu-ray also.

ha. It's not about Apple doing this, it's about it being done at all. Most of us are mad because we were hoping Apple had the guts to say no to this repressive behavior.

1) So assume that Apple doesn't include HDCP in their new Macs, so HD iTS media will never happen on the iTS and netirh will Bu-ray in any form. Would you complain about the lack of HD content on the Mac?

2) Why would their be HDCP on a PPT? I don't think it's possible unless it's authored as such as a video.

Excellent point. It would be good if it automatically down sampled the HD. Of course.. in that case it won't be much better than the SD version of a movie!

HOWEVER....

How did this "John" download a HD movie to a laptop? iTunes doesn't allow that - just HD on AppleTV or HD TV shows.
It actually sounds like he had an SD movie... which was then BLOCKED from showing on the projector. What's going on there?

(also note that some SD rentals are higher resolution than others - better than DVD due to more horizontal pixels, but still less than 480p vertically. I wonder if the better quality movies are those that are 'blocked', or some other factor).

edit: rustysoma on the arstechnica discussion says that the new DisplayPort Macs can rent HD movies now. He also wonders whether they can buy HD movies.


Are you saying Apple doesn't have this option since the movies are not AACS encrypted? Or just that it's currently only available on some AACS content? It would be nice to have this option.

Personally I watch rented movies through my laptop's DVI (via HDMI), and I assume my MBP's DVI can not support HDCP but I may be wrong.

Thus I'm wondering whether
1) Some of my SD movies will become blocked due to HDCP problems
2) My system will continue exactly as it is now (any SD is fine, plus HD TV shows).
3) Due to HDCP support, I'll be able to get HD movies...
or
4) Due to HDCP problems, I'll get HD down scaled to 540p.

The #1 is my current worry But it sounds like only those with new MBPs are currently in that boat!

I agree more or less with people who want to do what they want with their DVD and/or video bought on iTunes since those are provided with something which is called a "license" which restricts drastically the rights of the buyer. But since nobody reads it (OK, it does not read very well but...) and buy, it is major's right to make it apply.
But the problem with those DRM stuffs is that it is pointless: a lot of money spent in something that is usually easily hackable: the key used for protection is anyway somewhere on your computer (not always on the hardrive) so somebody just to find where.
It is just a burden for honest users who forget to "initalize their authorization" on iTunes or something.
And in this case it is even more stupid since, if I understand well, I can not play a movie from iTunes on my non-DRM-ready TV in my living room, but I can on the brand new Apple display in my friend's appartement ?
Come one steevy, I think my current MacBook pro will be my last one...

What amazes me is some folks actually are standing by Hollywood's asinine ploy to try and restrict how you view movies and reminding everyone of the 'legality issue.'

Let's keep this simple:
Hollywood is filled with overpaid undereducated twits... (I pay $9 now for a movie seat?)
They feel a threat by pirating...
They have no way to stop it or control it... (other than silly & poorly produced pre-dvd commercials)
They try to regulate the paying consumer...
The paying consumer will find a loophole, and eventually stop paying...
The overeducated, underpaid computer geeks make a simple and in most cases free work around...
Happy Hollywood ending for the consumer, not for Hollywood.

Until that point, all us Apple fans feel a bit of a slap in the face that Apple products are part of the Hollywood solution (don't forget folks... Mr. Jobs also works for Pixar, and makes his Pixar movies very difficult to duplicate).

I'm confident a simple solution is probably already in the works...
Anyone ever noticed their OS X has KLINGON as one of the native languages?
I have faith, that any programmer who had the audacity and spare time to program the Klingon dictionary into an OS... is going to come out with an application that bumps HDCP.

Just my $0.02.
B

Don't kid yourself... you're about as light as a bag of hammers.

When I need a language nazi (oh noooo... I done did it a'gin!), I'll let you know.


...

The solution is simple.

1. Buy non-drm content (ie: Amazon MP3s, Beatport MP3s) that works everywhere to begin with.
2. Pirate any remaining material that is not available DRM-free, like movies.

I'd cut a wide swathe around iTunes regardless of HDCP.

Did anybody check the resolution of the video that generated the error?

The reason I ask is that my Sony BluRay player will down convert 720p/1080i to all the existing standards but will not down convert 1080p. Could Apple be prepping for 1080p in addition to BluRay?

To all you complaining about DRM and HDCP, get off this board and start writing your congressmen. DRM is a political, non-technical issue that is best argued and resolved in the political arena, i.e. congress. You need to get yourself heard and noticed by the people that can do something. Apple can't, Microsoft can't, but congress can. Get yourself noticed, write congress, volunteer to work in your representatives campaign, give money. In other words buy back that senator from Hollywood.

P.S. HDCP is included in the Off-The-Air broadcasts. (With congress's approval.)

In the words of Grandpa Simpson: bitch, bitch, bitch.

I hate DRM, too, but this is just something you're all going to have to accept if you want to watch hi-def content legally. Of course, that ignores the fact that pirates get 100% of the quality with zero content protection, but I don't think the studios are going to change their minds.

And to anyone who wanted to watch Blu-Ray movies on a Mac, this is the first step. The content-protection infrastructure, if you want to call it that, has to exist before playback software for the discs can be written.

I spend thousands of dollars on equipment to enjoy the products these guys make, and I get that they want to protect stuff they are proud of. That they have worked their lives for. But what really bugs me is that because someone somewhere sometime may try to somehow make illegal duplicates against the wishes of these producers, that the expensive hardware and software I have bought becomes, for some odd reason, absolutely useless. And not because it is incapable of showing me this content, but because someone, somewhere, sometime, somehow may if they please make illegal copies of that work. I dunno somehow that just bothers me. Really I think its the part of me spending thousands of dollars for equipment that was supposed to just work but now it just doesn't.

Try disconnecting any displays that are not HDCP authorized

Sure thing, I'll just try any one of the twenty other HD displays I have lying around my house.

God the world is so fucked.

what about outside the US?

I can't give anything like real insight because there is so much that is not logical but I can shed some light and point out some facts. This (HDCP) is an encryption protocol for an uncompressed high definition video stream. More to the point who could possibly care since we are years away from consumer equipment that could realistically capture this data? This isn't like the compromise of DVD video copy protection which allowed access to the MPEG compressed data that is present on a disc. That meant access to the 4 GB of compressed data rather than the 400 GB of corresponding uncompressed data. That was (usually) high quality standard definition video which is dwarfed by the numbers involved with HD video.

Another somewhat relevant fact is that in 2001 a paper was published explaining that HDCP was ineffectively designed and with relatively simple effort it could be completely broken using linear algebra to compute the 40x40 matrix of numbers which acts as a 'master' key. Of course this barely matters because the data rates are so high it is of only academic interest for now (see paragraph above).

I haven't been paying close attention but it may be worth noting that the Blu Ray copy protection for compressed HD has been broken for some time. You can find immense file on pirate bay and elsewhere but even compressed these downloads measure well over 10 GB in many cases.

So what is the significance of the event reported in this story? Almost nothing except the new annoying incompatibilities where otherwise perfectly capable devices are broken by dim witted decisions and design. It is challenging enough to help family and friends make their purchased equipment work together as it should. They should be extending every effort to make all this new equipment work together as easily as possible rather than gumming up the works with yet another pointless new incompatibility. Shame on you Apple for contributing to this farce.

First, I did enjoy your little Hollywood story. However to say Mr. Jobs works for Pixar is rather inaccurate. As CEO he was an employee of Pixar but he also owns a major chunk of it*. It became the behemoth it is under his guidance and he first joined the billionaires club as a result of his successful work there rather than at Apple. Also there is nothing at all difficult about duplicating Pixar movies delivered on DVD or Blu-Ray. They're just like any other discs. That is all old news. This story isn't really about copyright infringement. The barn door is wide open elsewhere already and HDCP has been effectively defeated since 2001. The story is that people who purchased equipment now get to watch their purchases being trashed by arrogant, pointless decisions of the consumer electronics and entertainment industries.

* The deal between Disney and Pixar changes many of the details but not the essentials: Jobs is more a part of "Hollywood" than any other high tech executive.

Hi I'm one of those dumass users, before I buy a macbook, tell me does this only effect HD movie downloads?
or would this include any HD movies you make yourself using this hardwear?

Anything potentially capable of keeping Hollywood drivel from the eyes and minds of the worlds population is fine by me. SONY, Hitachi, Sanyo, et al... all the big names in display technology should make displays and TV's which block any film and TV programme emanating from the US.

The rest of the world can then remain blissfully ignorant of the American people's ignorance.

HDCP is just a an acronym: HollywooDCraP.

way to encourage piracy. this isn't apple's fault, it's the industry's fault for bowing to the RIAA/MPAA, although i didn't expect apple to follow the trend and impose restrictions on their own content.

personally, i couldn't care less, because i don't buy any digital media that contains DRM (so since there is basically no video content sold without DRM, i don't buy any. i suggest you do the same) DRM and other protective technologies are fundamentally wrong, and i don't think i need to repeat what's been already said about it.

you've got the idea right, but that's make pretty little business sense to these companies. the best thing is for consumers to refuse DRM of any sort. the problem is that the whole concept is too hard for the average person to understand.

when more and more open devices are blocked by big content, people will start noticing that their videos don't play like their VHS tapes used to and will stop buying...and start pirating, even more. but we need to keep educating people who are less tech saavy.

I think my problem is that Apple is continuing to sell equipment to customers without informing them of the restrictions. I don't have a problem with HDCP per se, I understand the reasons behind it. But Apple's roll-out of this new standard (where the nature and timescale of the roll-out is completely controlled by Apple) seems like one step forward, two steps back to a lot of users. It's the law abiding users that lose out here.

Apple continue to tell customers that they can use their existing displays with the new MacBooks. That clearly isn't true. For instance, if you buy an Apple Cinema Display (that's an ironic name now isn't it) it's not going to work fully with the current laptop offerings or any future Apple hardware sporting the DisplayPort interface. When I say work 'fully' I mean you can't continue to enjoy the same functionality you enjoy today.

So Apple have adopted a video interface where:

1. CPUs without a DisplayPort interface cannot drive a DisplayPort monitor
2. CPUs with a DisplayPort interface cannot drive anything but a DisplayPort monitor

Which effectively means that this new video interface is neither backwards nor forwards compatible, and the iTunes content you have already bought is now worthless. Will Apple be offering refunds for affected iTunes content? Probably not.

So, the stark reality is that if you are planning to purchase a new Cinema Display, that display won't work properly with any future hardware produced by Apple. Likewise, if you're planning on purchasing a new Apple Mac mini, iMac or Mac Pro, those CPUs will never be able to drive any future displays produced by Apple.

Way to go Apple!

Using it isn't entirely Apple's fault, as the movie studios probably forced it upon them. Implementing it without bothering to notify the users, now that is Apple's fault. Users are more willing to live with restrictions if said restrictions are known before hand. That switcher money goes bye bye if the general public thinks Apple is untrustworthy.


Blu-Ray is designed to keep playing in a lower resolution if the output source isn't HDCP. Apple's way is complete denial of service.


Agreed. One of the reasons digital movies have not taken off like digital music is because you have to deal with a bunch of restrictions that aren't there in physical media. If I buy an album on iTunes the only thing I don't get is a copy of the CD booklet. I have the same options and rights with that music that I do if I would have bought it in a store. If I want to listen to that music at a place other than my iPod, I can burn that music to a CD. There is no risk buying digital music.

If I buy a movie off of iTunes, not only don't I get the bonus features we've come to expect from a DVD, but I'm restricted to a computer, iPod/iPhone, or AppleTV. I can't rip a copy onto a DVD to play in my portable DVD play, bring it to watch at someone else's house, or import my existing DVD library to a digital format without a program like handbreak. Now they can dictate what displays you can or cannot do. That might be the straw that broke the camel's back for some who have started to buy into digital movies or were thinking about it. If you spend money you have no guarantee that you can use your purchase without needing to make a major purchase on a new display or projector. Unless things start going the other way and you receive the same rights with movies as you do with a music, digital movies are no threat to replace DVDs.

I'm sure it was, a concession but I think the issue there is that Apple wasn't upfront about implementing HDCP. It took a teacher not being watch a movie for anyone to know that HDCP was even there. Instead of informing users about it, they hid in in the legalize that very few read anyhow.

I wouldn't read too much into it at this point. As this thread as shown, their are some unanswere questions. Like, why would their be HDCP on an SD iTS video?

I'm glad I didn't buy that new macbook at this point. This WHOLE IDEA is ridiculous...you're in serious danger of losing a WHOLE LOT OF SALES with this one...

Content purchased from iTunes Store isn't Apples... not any more than the Blu-rays I bought from Amazon this week are "Amazon's content". That's the point of this.

If Apple wants to distribute HD content, which is the way of the future, then they have to implement the industry's safeguards.

I think that a lot of fans really overestimate the market segment they are in. 99% of people won't give a damn about this. Most of the verbal 1% that do have absolutely no idea what they are talking about, as evidenced by a couple of Apple forums the past day or so.

I really don't understand the anger though. People are acting like Apple has somehow suddenly turned to the dark side, but really remember this... Apple has incorporated DRM on iTunes music since day 1. What's new here?

Plus, did they have a choise? Not really... not if they intent to distribute HD video.

Ppl who say things like that tend to be pretty out of touch with the younger demographic- say 18-to-29 year olds- who DO tend to care about things like this.

The number of ppl who are unhappy with the DRM situ is obviously higher than 1%, especially in that age group.

If you're trying to whistle past the graveyard, perhaps a better argument is, "Ahh, damn kids, they don't have any money anyway!"

To be followed by the ever-popular, "GET OFF MY LAWN!!!"



...

Lots of questions, but no answers from Cupertino.

I doubt very much this will halt or reverse their sales. What it will do however is kill any chance for the iTunes movie store to really get off the ground. When you are trying to convince people that a digital file is better than a physical disc they can hold on to the last thing you wanna do is throw up more road blocks.

I predict many lawsuits out of this & the death of either HDCP on the Macs or the death of iTunes use of this specific copy protection. Remember this only effects iTunes content that has that built in protection enabled.

That's a long-dead anti-Apple myth. Content owners (RIAA, movie industry) are the drivers behind DRM. Apple's devices sell just great on their OWN merits (no lock-in needed) with ease-of-use being an obvious benefit of iPod-iTunes integration. The iPod was a runaway success before the iTunes Music Store even existed.

Apple has stated clearly that they oppose DRM, and have put their money where there mouth is, offering DRM-free iTunes Plus tracks that will play on any device modern enough to support MP4/AAC.

Does anyone really think that the RIAA would have allowed the iTunes Music Store to exist without DRM? That they were fine with the music being DRM-free but Apple imposed DRM anyway? That history is well-established, and it's the content owners who demand DRM.

Why are only some songs available DRM-free? Because not all content owners will ALLOW iTunes sales to be DRM-free. Why do those same labels allow DRM-free on Amazon? Because they want to punish Apple's success and promote a strong competitor. They are giving Amazon an intentional advantage that they won't give Apple--or won't give it unless Apple pays extra for it. (And for once I like the result of the content-owners actions: their support for Amazon gives me a nice alternative store that I'm glad to have.)

Interestingly, a rumor today is that Apple will even start selling MP3 tracks. Don't know about that one!

Thanks and totally agree.


And thanks to, let me see here...minderbinder, GQB, rcfa, and sdbryan for answering my request for some insight on the point of HDCP encryption on the output device, each in your own unique, well-explained way.

I think this article pretty much sums it up...

HDCP doesn't work that way.

I have to disagree with you here. People will notice this, if they have an monitor that has a DVI or VGA port that doesn't have HDCP support and they rent a movie to play on it, they will get this error and they will notice. When they ask their technology literate friends what is going on, the technology literate person will tell them it is because of DRM. That because the movie and music industry lives in constant fear of some people somewhere doing illegal activities with these products, the movie and music industries put DRM on these products.

This is to anyone outside of the technology world a stupid stupid circle. It puts the consumer at another disadvantage and the movie and music industry out millions of dollars on copy protection software that has only managed to stop legitimate use and not done a single thing to stop people who are taking part in illegal activities. But no one wants to talk about this. No one ever wants to fix this in a reasonable way. All they want to do is slap another new protection/restriction measure on the content, because heck it feels good when we are "proactive."