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Apple's new MacBooks have built-in copy protection measures - Page 3

post #81 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

This move to HDCP will not change my future Mac purchases, it will just mean I don't buy from itunes, which I don't do now - I rent DVDs - and I won't feel the urgency to buy Blu-Ray discs, new displays etc. In 5 years when movies start being HD-only, then I'll see what options they have then and pick what is most convenient for me.

I'm with you 100%.
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post #82 of 247
WOW. This is pretty lame.

Now I'm REALLY glad I bought the previous gen MacBook Pro (Amazon, $1444) instead of one of the latest machines.

Looks like I'll still get screwed eventually by this Nazi BS, but not for 4 years or so.


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post #83 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by delventhalz View Post

If you think this is a ridiculously bad business choice on Apple's part then you need to let them know. Apple has always been fairly responsible when it comes to DRM, but this is completely unacceptable. They are putting their customers second to big content, and the only way they'll stop is if we let them know how bad a decision it was for them.

The purpose of HDCP is to stop an analog hole. If you could plug display port or DVI into an VGA cable. Recording devices could record a pristine and DRM free copy of the content.
post #84 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

WOW. This is pretty lame.

Now I'm REALLY glad I bought the previous gen MacBook Pro (Amazon, $1444) instead of one of the latest machines.

Looks like I'll still get screwed eventually by this Nazi BS, but not for 4 years or so.


...

Aren't you one of the ones so keen on Blu-ray? This same DRM would come with it.
post #85 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by anilsudhakaran View Post

I don't understand why the restriction should apply to VGA displays. I understand HDMI and DVI requiring HDCP compliance.

So you can't take that VGA feed and copy it. The CP in HDCP is for Copy Protection. iTunes should down-convert to 480p in this case; that's the only mistake on Apple's part.
post #86 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post

Apple OPPOSES DRM, publicly

By your own words, you admit Apple and Steve are hypocrites then.
post #87 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

WOW. This is pretty lame.

Now I'm REALLY glad I bought the previous gen MacBook Pro (Amazon, $1444) instead of one of the latest machines.

Looks like I'll still get screwed eventually by this Nazi BS, but not for 4 years or so.


...

How? If you had a DVI monitor and no one told you you wouldn't even know. Oh the horror!!
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post #88 of 247
I had to learn this lesson the hard way. I remember trying to sell a legit copy I owned of AutoCAD on ebay. After my auction was booted and my account frozen I learned that just because I had purchased the software and license, it didn't mean I could do whatever I wanted to (which included reselling it). I was "leasing" the intellectual property under certain terms and conditions. There was no gun held to my head when I bought it. Did I like it? No. In fact, there was something very un-American about the whole thing. But that's the way it is!

If you "just won't stand for this" and expect Apple to change... you might as well get good at creating hand puppets with that non-HDCP projector!

It's one of those times when you ask yourself "what's getting upset going to do?"
post #89 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Aren't you one of the ones so keen on Blu-ray? This same DRM would come with it.


I've never said anything terribly pro or con on Blu-Ray, except that I thought it was better than HD-DVD, and that while it will be replaced by digital downloads, that process will take a long time due to bandwidth limitations.

You have me confused with someone else.


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post #90 of 247
[ deleted ]

Many of the most important software concepts were invented in the 70s and forgotten in the 80s.

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Many of the most important software concepts were invented in the 70s and forgotten in the 80s.

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post #91 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

I've never said anything terribly pro or con on Blu-Ray, except that I thought it was better than HD-DVD, and that while it will be replaced by digital downloads, that process will take a long time due to bandwidth limitations.

You have me confused with someone else.

...

Alright, I'm trying to keep all of your outrages straight.
post #92 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I can agree. Not buying DRM content is the best protest you can make against it. But unfortunately most people don't care so it may not make much difference.

If you really cared to make a difference, you'd not buy the content and not pirate it from a torrent. If the studios saw declining sales and declining torrent downloads, they couldn't use piracy as a lame rationalization for DRM that they do now.

Besides, you don't have a right to use their products. They can put whatever DRM on it that they like. It doesn't mean you have a right to steal it just because you really want it.

Simply stealing it sends them a message that you're a thief. Letting them know their product isn't important enough to you to use at all and that if they removed DRM they'd have your money will send a much more powerful message.
post #93 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by websnap View Post

How? If you had a DVI monitor and no one told you you wouldn't even know. Oh the horror!!


Oh, Apple must love you. Such a good little boy.


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post #94 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bageljoey View Post

OK, but I think you are changing your argument here. Let me quote from your original post:

and

These quotes indicate that you feel ownership of the copyrighted material that you have only bought the restricted rights to.
Your new argument is that legality is not an issue and that nobody has any right to restrict your ability to choose to break the law. You can make that argument, but you start to look silly doing it...

Conceded, and my meaning was not so much over the matter of ownership in that sense. I do own many msuic CDs and I know that I only own the right to consume that music. But my beef is simple that if a DRM is going to restrict illegal uses of media, then it shouldn't also restrict legal (or what a general populous would consider completely fair) use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feste View Post

I don't see the benefit of allowing people to choose whether to act legally or not, if there's an effective way to simply compel legal behavior. Laws are not passed in order to make people better, or give them fodder for exercising their free will in a self-actualizing manner, or whatever you have in mind. The purpose of laws is to remove choice, not create it. Again, our perception of legal and illegal behavior as two possible courses of action that present us with choices does not accord with the rationale or motives behind legislation. It's a side effect.

Besides which, if you're just talking about people having choices, you've talked yourself into a corner, because the technology you're upset about was also created by people exercising their choices. If it's all about choice, then the entities with the resources and power (read: corporations) will exercise their choices at the expense of the entities with fewer resources and less power (read: individual consumers).

Your argument re: the purpose of laws is well-grounded, and through the discussions so far, it's clear that I will need to define what I'm getting at more. Industry-standard DRM measures currently suck at discerning between legitimate consumers and illegitimate consumers. You're not supposed to speed on the way to work to make up for lost time. And if you get caught, then you pay for that risk. But you don't see speed governors on your car that, say, top you out based on the speed limit of the road you're on. You still have the choice. But in the case of this article, I feel that John the high school teacher should have been able to watch a movie that he purchased the rights to consume on any monitor he was capable of hooking his laptop up to. Had John used the DVD version of the same movie, I don't think he'd have had the same problem. That inequality is what irks me.
post #95 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by delventhalz View Post

If you think this is a ridiculously bad business choice on Apple's part then you need to let them know. Apple has always been fairly responsible when it comes to DRM, but this is completely unacceptable. They are putting their customers second to big content, and the only way they'll stop is if we let them know how bad a decision it was for them.

Everyone, go to this feedback page and let them know what you think about their new HDCP support:
http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html

Do you actually think it was Apple's decision to include HDCP and not the studios? Do you think they wanted to do this?

Because of the studio's insistence on HDCP, Apple's choice was to sell it with HDCP, or not have it to sell at all.
post #96 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Alright, I'm trying to keep all of your outrages straight.


Hey, I feel for ya. I have a hard time keeping all of your various arguments for why Apple is always right straight too.


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post #97 of 247
Lordy

I had no idea that people were as clueless as this.

What did some of you all think when we media mavens were

ranting about DRM being excessive in the new formats?

HDCP is a given for any current and forthcoming HD content and

With Blu-ray it's even worse ("It's a bag of hurt" says Jobs).


In fact you should be HAPPY that Apple has finally implemented HDCP
support. It now means the road is paved for adding Blu-ray and other
HD technologies. Sure...you'll have to buy a new monitor perhaps but hell
you know you need the new hotness anyways.
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post #98 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Hey, I feel for ya. I have a hard time keeping all of your various arguments for why Apple is always right straight too.


...

Oh of course, I've never ever thought Apple has done one thing wrong, ever......
post #99 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Oh of course, I've never ever thought Apple has done one thing wrong, ever......


Pretty much.


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post #100 of 247
HDCP support is not a choice for Apple. Anyone who wants to push HD content must be compliant - the content owners demand it. It is already in place in all the HD content we watch - you just don't or rarely notice because your HD home theater, HD TiVo, HD Cable DVR etc. is already compliant as is your HDTV. All we are seeing here is a glitch where a legacy technology (VGA) comes up against a new standard (HDCP) and something breaks. The studios have little incentive to create a workaround more than the 480p downsampling they already claim to have, and VGA is (slowly) dying out as a video standard. Apple should fix that failure (lack of downsampling).
If you care about HD on your computer, you have to use DVI or better. If you are OK with SD, then keep on trucking with VGA.
Bitching about HDCP is like King Canute demanding the tide go back. Feel free to protest by not buying HD content from iTunes, but don't think that you will get any better experience from otherHD or Blu-Ray.
Also - good luck with Vista in avoiding HDCP - FAIL. Go Linux, let us know how that goes.

Massive over reaction.

PS This doesn't mean I like DRM but it's not Apple's job to fight our battles. HDCP is, on balance, good business for them (enables HD content) since most people will watch it over HDCP compliant setups.
PPS - Apple hasn't put out anything with a VGA port as a primary connection for a long time (though you can get and use the adapters) - most mac users are already HDCP compliant.
post #101 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by PXT View Post

I know that the cost of each iPod in Europe includes a piracy-tax applied to the price.

Would you care to provide proof of that?
post #102 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Lordy
In fact you should be HAPPY that Apple has finally implemented HDCP
support. It now means the road is paved for adding Blu-ray and other
HD technologies. Sure...you'll have to buy a new monitor perhaps but hell
you know you need the new hotness anyways.

I'm not so sure this paves an easy path for Blu-ray. Apple owns Fairplay and can implement its own version of HDCP. Apple would have to license Blu-rays proprietary DRM.
post #103 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Oh, Apple must love you. Such a good little boy.

...

OOOOOOOH, I'm soooooo burned....



lol

Call me what you'd like, but you can't say I'm wrong. The only reason this was caught was because it was run on incidentally unsupported hardware (projector) that apple should have warned about. I have a 20 inch Apple display and while I wouldn't have been able to run the new laptop on it until the DP-to-DVI adaptor was available, I could still plug it in my widescreen through HDMI and I'd never had be the wiser. The only real crime apple committed here was not telling customers that this was coming down the pipe which is causing more confusion then need be. I'm sure if people had known this was happening, they just would have bought the DVD instead.
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post #104 of 247
America used to love oil and for that our car companies built cars to use MORE of it.

America loves their technology, now it seems the tech companies are implementing features into their products FORCING you to upgrade. Or in the case of the FCC (and Apple (FW)) They are taking away features, forcing you to upgrade. In the FCC's case, at least, they know how to do a change over!!!! Hey Apple do you know what transition means?????



Why not just add macrovision to an Analog output????(I don't really know what I'm talking about on that one)
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post #105 of 247
Legality, freedom, etc. aside. Technically speaking, I don't understand why on earth Intel and the movie studios felt the need to combat piracy by placing restrictions on video transmission between the payback device and the monitor. Piracy is accomplished 99% of the time by decrypting the DRM of content digitally on a computer - not through (possibly expensive) external recording devices. Possibly piracy groups could begin to do this if DRM became too difficult to crack, which I HIGHLY doubt. However, even for those who do pirate films, for whatever reason (free or freedom), the probability they will actively search out for a device to copy a film and then PAY for it is absurd.

Basically, technically speaking, IMO they are attacking the wrong link in a weak chain and, in doing so, ONLY hurting legitimate users - it doesn't affect piracy groups in the slightest. If they really wanted to effectively combat piracy, they would either (A - technical) be working on more effective DRM protections on the content itself or (B - socioeconomically) actually work to make legal video content "purchases" easier, more convenient, etc. Apple has done an excellent job of B for music and a decent job at A. However, video is not quite there yet.

BTW - my first post here.
post #106 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by websnap View Post

OOOOOOOH, I'm soooooo burned....



It's always true that people who are first to dish out the sarcasm can never take it.


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post #107 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav View Post

If you really cared to make a difference, you'd not buy the content and not pirate it from a torrent. If the studios saw declining sales and declining torrent downloads, they couldn't use piracy as a lame rationalization for DRM that they do now.

Besides, you don't have a right to use their products. They can put whatever DRM on it that they like. It doesn't mean you have a right to steal it just because you really want it.

Simply stealing it sends them a message that you're a thief. Letting them know their product isn't important enough to you to use at all and that if they removed DRM they'd have your money will send a much more powerful message.

I wasn't necessarily advocating stealing content. I just meant don't buy it.
post #108 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by m2002brian View Post

America used to love oil and for that our car companies built cars to use MORE of it.

America loves their technology, now it seems the tech companies are implementing features into their products FORCING you to upgrade. Or in the case of the FCC (and Apple (FW)) They are taking away features, forcing you to upgrade. In the FCC's case, at least, they know how to do a change over!!!! Hey Apple do you know what transition means?????



Why not just add macrovision to an Analog output????(I don't really know what I'm talking about on that one)

Well the problem is theft.

Once broadband took off the ability to steal covertly increased substantially. On a modem it was physically infeasible to steal a movie of DVD quality much less HD. Today it's easy to download a HD movie in a matter of minutes.

Now with music the financial hit isn't that hard. The typical label musician makes less than a buck per CD sold. If you download a track from them you're likely costing them roughly $.08 or so. Their production costs are low with many CD cut from makeshift studios in the home. Juxtapose that with a movie. A movie worthy of theatrical release costs in the millions to produce, market and distribute. Just look at the credits for a movie and see the amount of staffing it takes to take a project from screenplay to post production.

When you download a movie your REALLY put the creators in a pickle. Unlike the musician who recoups most of their money via touring the movie depends on the DVD release to generate much of the profits now and if you steal that you've driven a dagger through their heart.

Apple should protect the rights of all artists who worked hard to create something from scratch and that product has value. Yes ..I'm dismayed by how greedy the majors are but someday the hope is that low cost distribution and marketing will revolutionize the Indie markets and pricing will become very affordable.

The only way that happens though is to allow a degree of protection from theft and the ability to profit from one's creation.

my $.04
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post #109 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by tibbsy View Post

But in the case of this article, I feel that John the high school teacher should have been able to watch a movie that he purchased the rights to consume on any monitor he was capable of hooking his laptop up to. Had John used the DVD version of the same movie, I don't think he'd have had the same problem. That inequality is what irks me.

Hey, I'm with you on that one!!
I apologize for being a stickler earlier, but I do think it is important to be clear about what we are objecting to and why we think it is objectionable.

This example (if true) is a travesty.

I, too, agree that DRM is lothesome if it prevents legal use. If it can be implemented such that it never affects me when I am following the law then I really don't have a problem with it. But it should not be a burden to the legal consumer and this case does apear that it could be a real backslide
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post #110 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by parky View Post

Very silly analogies which are not actually correct.

The analogies do seem to be pretty accurate. For example, as a user, you technically only have the right to play that DVD on an approved, licensed player, at least in the US. Any concept of fair use media shifting went out the window with digital copy protection laws. I don't remember if Europe has passed any similar laws yet on the subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Mozzarella View Post

Sounds like a lot of hoops to jump through just to get DVD quality video for FREE.

It doesn't sound like much work to save $10 if I were so inclined. If you don't mind the computer running at max for half an hour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sausage&Onion View Post

Well, this a another phenomenal reason to avoid ITMS and just use netflix. If netflix gets their act together and start streaming even more material, they are going to bury iTunes. I can't really say Im gonna miss it either...

I seem to recall that Netflix applies DRM to their streaming video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Not likely. The DRM is implanted in the media file. Its possible to play other iTunes video files over VGA. Just not some of the HD movies.

I think you can with an older computer without HDCP support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

But we'll run out of IP addresses.

What does HDCP have to do with IP addresses?
post #111 of 247
Well, if you look back in history hardware restrictions never served it's intended purpose, but it's really annoying that these measures haven't been disclosed by Apple in any way.

Remember all the uproar when Vista with it's copy right restrictions was introduced? People and media complaint about bad bad Microsoft fooling its customers, again.

Now MS is on a road to a more open philosophy, forced by the industry. And what doese Apple...right...they're doing it the Microsoft way.
post #112 of 247
(xvi) HDMI. An HDCP connection is required in order to view movies (purchased or rented) and TV shows transmitted over HDMI.

http://www.apple.com/legal/itunes/us/service.html

This problem is only with iTunes purchased content, I think it shouldn't cause the flickering on the monitor.
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post #113 of 247
What happens on older laptops and other machines, do they not allow playing back those movies at all on an external screen? If they do play back in HD, doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of trying to block the "analog hole"?

And when HDMI isn't available, isn't the movie supposed to still play back, just not in HD resolution?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

With that said, I don't really get the point of HDCP, which requires an HDCP-enabled display. Why do they want to protect the output device? Anyone have any insight on this?

Because without the limitation you could just hook up the output to the input of a device that records HD and have an exact copy of the movie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adjei View Post

So where will you buy your computer, from other PC manufacturers who also have this on their system.

I doubt people would bail on Apple/windows too much, they'll just pirate the movies instead. And haven't HD movies been cracked already?
post #114 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

Would you care to provide proof of that?

Sorry, but I have long forgotten where I saw an article about European 'piracy taxes'. The gist was that the EU applies a percentage, I think it is to flash memory or something similar, as a result of lobbying from the record industries and this cost is reflected in all mp3 players sold in Europe.

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post #115 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archipellago View Post

the cynic in me thinks that iTunes Plus was just a ruse for APple to charge more for already well overpriced content.

iTunes Plus doesn't cost any more than iTunes regular. There was a transitional time when it did (and offered you higher quality for your trouble too) but only for singles, not albums, and only when Plus was new and the record labels were hesitant to get on board. Maybe more would be on board today if singles still cost more, but I'm glad Apple dropped the price.

It's absurd to think Apple is driving the DRM rather than the content owners driving it. The profit Apple makes from charging .30 more for certain singles for a certain period of time is trivial compared to iTunes as a whole, which in turn is a drop in the bucket compared to the device sales that Apple REALLY cares about. Apple's motivation with iTunes pricing is clearly simplicity, not pinching pennies out of us--remember how they fought against offering certain tracks for over .99? They gave in partially with Plus--temporarily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

By your own words, you admit Apple and Steve are hypocrites then.

Can you explain?

DRM is a necessary evil from Apple's point of view. The content owners call the shots. Apple has fought against DRM, and sometimes they've won, sometimes not. Apple's other choices were a) not to fight, and let the recording industry go nuts, or b) not to have downloadable music (which people do want) from the big content owners at all.
post #116 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by tibbsy View Post

3) You buy Wall-E off a digital movie vendor. Now, if you paid for it, it's yours right? You can do whatever you want with it right? If you wanted, you could take the file and delete it. So why is it that someone else is getting to decide if and how you can watch it? Who knows - maybe in clicking through those terms of service, people agreed that they didn't actually own those digitial items they paid money for and figured they'd own like a real DVD.

You are clearly mistaken over what you've purchased. You do NOT own the video. You have purchased a license to play the video in compliance with the associated license agreement. Just like you cannot legally play a video from Blockbuster to a crowd of people who've paid admission, there are license restrictions on downloaded movies.

In this case, more than ever before, the license is enforceable.

In neither case do you "own" the movie. You do own a piece of polycarbonate (DVD), or a reel of tape. You can do with those as you wish (burn, tape over, use as a coaster). In no case do you OWN the movie itself. You are a licensee. It's the same with DVDs and VHS and vinyl.

Technology is finally letting copyright holders control how they distribute their content. In the early history of film, it was easy. Celluloid is expensive, and requires some know-how to manufacture, expose and process. Even with a content player (projector), duplication was effectively impossible.

Tape changed all that. Now, making copies of video or audio was relatively easy. Studios lost control of their creative works.

If you are upset, vote with your wallet. Piracy is illegal, and isn't an alternative. You don't "need" movies or TV or music.

The real problem is that studios are controlling the multi-purpose content delivery systems (computers), and introducing complications that I will never legally need. HDCP checking surely takes CPU time or at least space on silicon. If I run into problems with monitor connections because of ill-tempered HDCP authentication, I'll be mad. But only because it's not serving its intended purpose.
post #117 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zauner View Post

Now MS is on a road to a more open philosophy, forced by the industry. And what doese Apple...right...they're doing it the Microsoft way.

In exactly is Windows on the road to an open philosophy? I see MS trying compete with everyone and to control everything the way they always have.

Apple nor MS are to blame or have much control over these DRM policies. If they want the right to use copy written content, they are forced to use the DRM.
post #118 of 247
These tech companies are using HDCP as a way of forcing a monitor(TV) upgrade. In the case of the FCC it's just greed. US government (of the people, by the people) is making 100's of millions of dollars off of the analog spectrum auction. Yet, they're taking away my signal, replacing it with a new one (hey apple, what you think of that idea (FW)), and ultimately FORCING me to spend money on something I never needed before, and for what. Higher resolution? Do people realize HDTV came about because houses are too small in Japan and they sit too close to the TV. Do we in the U.S. do that? Now I love HD, but hey, I pay for it.

Now Apple, and others, are using HDCP as an excuse to upgrade my monitor. How much "Apple" tax do we have to take.

Sure, go ahead, say it's not Apple's fault. In the end though we all know who AGREED to implement it.

BTW I have yet to meet ANYBODY that has a high resolution (HD and up) stand alone recording unit (never mind with VGA input)
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post #119 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post


With that said, I don't really get the point of HDCP, which requires an HDCP-enabled display. Why do they want to protect the output device? Anyone have any insight on this?

HDCP requires that every device along the path honor and enforce it.
If the monitor doesn't enforce it, then you could put a capture device at the end of the chain.

I'm somewhat concerned about the HDMI switcher I use, but not all that much.

Also, HDCP doesn't mean that the picture won't display, simply that the compliance bit is switched off when it hits a non-compliant component, and the picture will be down-rez'd to, say, 480P.

Still, its a curious choice, but no doubt geared towards securing more HD content from the studios.
post #120 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by pt123 View Post

Looks like Apple is leading the way to enabling HDCP with iTunes.

Who else would be leading the way to HDCP on iTunes?

If you meant in general use of enabling HDCP, yeah, they sure are are leading the way to applying it. Right after HD Televisions (and many monitors), Upscaling DVD players, HD-DVD, Blu-Ray, Cable Boxes, and Video Card manufacturers, Microsoft...

Come to think of it, looks like Apple's late to the game!

My 5-year old TV has HDCP. If you think this is shocking news, then you haven't been paying attention. Yes, HDCP is dumb, but if you want to watch HD material, you will need an HD display, and most all HD displays support HDCP.
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