or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Software › Mac OS X › Expanded Apple lawsuit claims Psystar part of a larger plot
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Expanded Apple lawsuit claims Psystar part of a larger plot - Page 2

post #41 of 102
just take a look at what happened when Mattel brought suit against the people that make the "Bratz" dolls.. They have been ordered to cease and dessist and turn over all Bratz Merchandise to Mattel.... This case is pretty cut and dry.
post #42 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmjoe View Post

I wish Psystar my best here, but this is unfortunately where DMCA stifles competition and innovation. What was really intended to protect copyrighted content from illegally being copied is now being used to lock software to specific hardware and lock legitimate software out of other hardware. The founding fathers are rolling in their graves. This is corporate lobbyists in DC at their "finest". Unfortunately, fixing the DMCA is non-existent on the list of campaign issues for elected officials and the electorate is, for the most part, fat, dumb and happy with their gadgets.

I'd also love to hear from some of the open source people who laid the groundwork of OS X as to their opinion of Apple building on their work and then locking it out of other hardware.

I actually own a copy of Leopard. Nowhere on or inside the package does it say "upgrade". There is no law preventing Apple from selling upgrade vs. non-upgrade priced copies of their OS. It is definitely not the purpose of DMCA to protect Apple from a flawed sales model. Also, there is no law forcing Apple to write device drivers. There is no law forcing Apple to offer support to unsupported platforms (Apple does also nicely list the system requirements).

You almost hit the real reason why Apple is "locking" OS X to specific hardware...almost.

Apple locks OS X onto specific hardware because, that's the hardware it gets tested the most on. This means that OS X works as intended on this hardware. If there was no lock and if any old company could produce a PC that ran OS X, Apple would have less control over the hardware being used and OS X might not work as intended on it. This would pose a serious problem as people would blame OS X before they blame the hardware...so Apple would get the bad rep while Dell and Co. wouldn't.

You almost got it.
post #43 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

plus who's to say this isn't an anti-trust case?
if microsoft can get charged and pay settlement to avoid conviction because they locked out suppliers of internet browsers
who's to say apple couldn't get the same treatment for locking out hardware suppliers
(market share will have something to do with this, but since marketshare is growing...)

Not the same thing.
post #44 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

And as long as you buy a new one next year to replace the one that will have died you can still play those games.

I said good not great
MacBook Pro 17" Glossy 2.93GHz, iPad 64GB, iPhone 4 16GB, and a lot of other assorted goodies.

If you're a troll and you have been slain. Don't be a Zombie.
Reply
MacBook Pro 17" Glossy 2.93GHz, iPad 64GB, iPhone 4 16GB, and a lot of other assorted goodies.

If you're a troll and you have been slain. Don't be a Zombie.
Reply
post #45 of 102
Blah. MS added a extended warranty. I'm sure you do tell people to get the replacement plan, it's your job. Just like the people in the Apple store try to get you get Apple Care. My friend has a 360 and it's fine. Stop spreading bullshit lies about products. I'd like to know how you can see into the future and see his 360 dying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

And as long as you buy a new one next year to replace the one that will have died you can still play those games.

I tell people all the time to buy the store replacement plan for any XBox they buy.
post #46 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post

Well Jeff, you assume that all people live in USA where is the only place where everything is available, just compared it to iTunes or the new born App Store that is available in way more countries with the full array of products.
When you compare Xbox store to Apple's is kind of ridiculous.
In my country I was one of the first to buy an xbox, same happened with the 360. Lame I can't buy anything from the store as it happens with some other 6 to 8 millions xbox users around Latin America.

All the stuff I bought from that store was in one of my trips to USA, at least I can travel there, thank god I don't live there anymore.

Happier over here

Point taken, and it is unfortunate.

But most digital stores have region issues. How well does iTunes serve your region?
post #47 of 102
If the John Doe's turned out to be Woz and friends, they'd be tough to catch. Those segways are nippy! Police chase of the century though.

Many of the most important software concepts were invented in the 70s and forgotten in the 80s.

Reply

Many of the most important software concepts were invented in the 70s and forgotten in the 80s.

Reply
post #48 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

waaah, waaah, Apple. Just give it up already. Open up your damn operating system so people can install it on their machines without getting gouged on the prices.

It is Apple's right though. They alone have persevered and stayed solvent when every other consumer computer platform or operating system has sunk long ago save for Windows. Amiga, BeOS, OS/2 are gone, I'm sure there are several that I'm forgetting.

Apple's overall sales have been increasing despite a recession that's started late last year, despite the gouging you say happens - which I would agree on their memory and hard drive prices, their systems are pretty decent. And you're asking them to give up those profits? What sane person or company would take you up on your request? You're asking them to give up what's in their best interest to keep, which is a recipe for you not getting what you want.

I understand that you want what you see is in your best interest, maybe you should learn how to put yourself in other people's shoes. If you regard everyone else as being stupid for not believing what you want them to, don't go complaining that they don't take your side and do what you want.

I'm curious why you can't take your own advice and give it up already. Maybe try doing something else to find something that makes you happy. You haven't made a constructive or informative post here in a very long time that I remember, you're usually posting in a negative, whining tone.
post #49 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post

Drop dead. Please.

I'd like to second that motion....


I didn't think Apple was sitting on it's hands......

Apple Legal is going to make mince meat out of Psystar..... and I can't think of a more deserving bunch of loosers....

GET'M APPLE....... SUE SUE SUE......
post #50 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

waaah, waaah, Apple. Just give it up already. Open up your damn operating system so people can install it on their machines without getting gouged on the prices.

Do you like carrying around a big flag that says, "I'm a totally Ignorant Buffoon!". Apple makes OS X to run on it's OWN MACHINES..... which are by far superior to the shit PC's I've unfortunately owned over the past decade..... it's a package deal.... and it's their choice. Because.... THEY OWN THE CODE.....

Here's another thought ..... You get what you pay for....

And as another person in here said....

"Please Drop Dead"......
post #51 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by kim kap sol View Post

You almost hit the real reason why Apple is "locking" OS X to specific hardware...almost.

Apple locks OS X onto specific hardware because, that's the hardware it gets tested the most on. This means that OS X works as intended on this hardware. If there was no lock and if any old company could produce a PC that ran OS X, Apple would have less control over the hardware being used and OS X might not work as intended on it. This would pose a serious problem as people would blame OS X before they blame the hardware...so Apple would get the bad rep while Dell and Co. wouldn't.

You almost got it.

Got what? That we should be legally protecting companies from their fear of getting a "bad rep"? That was not the intent of the DMCA.

If there was no lock on you using brand XYZ nails in brand XYZ boards well XYZ might get a "bad rep" if you used those XYZ nails in your ABC brand board. Oops! We'd better get out there and protect those construction materials companies too. Imagine Edison inventing the light bulb or phonograph in that kind environment. I'm sorry, you can't put our brand of wire with that brand of glass. Sorry, but you want use whose foil with our needles???

There's nothing to get. Apple wants to have their cake and eat it too. They want to sell Leopard to people, but only if they can tell you what hardware to run it on.
post #52 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaphodsplanet View Post

Do you like carrying around a big flag that says, "I'm a totally Ignorant Buffoon!". Apple makes OS X to run on it's OWN MACHINES..... which are by far superior to the shit PC's I've unfortunately owned over the past decade..... it's a package deal.... and it's their choice. Because.... THEY OWN THE CODE.....

Here's another thought ..... You get what you pay for....

And as another person in here said....

"Please Drop Dead"......

Well, we can all learn a lesson here. Next time, before responding to this sort of tripe, we need to peruse the profile and previous posts of the suspected troll. Sure enough, g3pro is a shill troll to the hilt. In the future we need to just ignore this tool. Don't give "it" the pleasure of reading respones to the bait.
post #53 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by kim kap sol View Post

Not the same thing.

care to explain why you think that preventing hardware suppliers competing by using software locks isn't anti-trust ?

people choose their computers as much on the OS as on the hardware
and especially since apple is not providing hardware technologically different to anyone else (phew let the fanboi debate begin)
apple is using this as a lever to get an edge over competitors (which are who? that's right hardware companies like Dell, HP, Lenovo)

they are not using either the DMCA or the EULA to protect their OS software alone - they are using it to protect another item
...an item not meant to be protected by either the DMCA or an EULA

ie they are using their software locks to protect hardware, hardware which has no copyright links to the software
(and any technological links that are there are arguably created for precisely that purpose)

people have pointed this out... this is apple's business model
but it's also the basis of anti-trust cases everywhere
only since they only have a small market share no one has bothered to chase them (yet)
post #54 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post

Well, we can all learn a lesson here. Next time, before responding to this sort of tripe, we need to peruse the profile and previous posts of the suspected troll. Sure enough, g3pro is a shill troll to the hilt. In the future we need to just ignore this tool. Don't give "it" the pleasure of reading respones to the bait.

Wait a minute... you're calling me a shill because I question Apple on its hardware pricing.

You, on the other hand, unquestionably follow Apple in whatever decision they make regardless of the outcome or motive behind them. If there is any question about who a shill is in this discussion, it would be you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

Let's see, Vista = 199.95-319.95
Leopard= 129.95 - that's it ...top of the line 129.95.
So who exactly is getting gouged here.:
wow:

I'm talking about getting gouged on the hardware, not the software. The hardware Apple sells is the same hardware other PC manufacturers sell, just encased in an Apple-branded shell.
Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

Ste...
Reply
Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

Ste...
Reply
post #55 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

care to explain why you think that preventing hardware suppliers competing by using software locks isn't anti-trust ?

people choose their computers as much on the OS as on the hardware
and especially since apple is not providing hardware technologically different to anyone else (phew let the fanboi debate begin)
apple is using this as a lever to get an edge over competitors (which are who? that's right hardware companies like Dell, HP, Lenovo)

they are not using either the DMCA or the EULA to protect their OS software alone - they are using it to protect another item
...an item not meant to be protected by either the DMCA or an EULA

ie they are using their software locks to protect hardware, hardware which has no copyright links to the software
(and any technological links that are there are arguably created for precisely that purpose)

people have pointed this out... this is apple's business model
but it's also the basis of anti-trust cases everywhere
only since they only have a small market share no one has bothered to chase them (yet)

A judge already threw out Psystar's anti-trust and monopoly claims that mirror your own words. Apple does offer HW that others don't have, but you have at the whole machine, not just the parts that can be found in other PCs. You also have to understand some basics about business and how that trying to force Apple to socialize its OS is not an aspect of a free market because OS X and Mac are not a market, they are simply part of the PC market.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #56 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

I'm talking about getting gouged on the hardware, not the software. The hardware Apple sells is the same hardware other PC manufacturers sell, just encased in an Apple-branded shell.

That shell you so easily dismiss is hardware. While attractive to many it serves more than an aesthetic function. It creates the frame and the size and even offers a more environmentally friendly machine. If it's just a shell then why are other manufacturer's machines so thick in comparison? Why don't they have multi-gesture trackpads? While the thickness, extra HW features, and 'green' aspects mean little to you, they do serve a purpose that does seem to encourage sales.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #57 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post

Well, we can all learn a lesson here. Next time, before responding to this sort of tripe, we need to peruse the profile and previous posts of the suspected troll. Sure enough, g3pro is a shill troll to the hilt. In the future we need to just ignore this tool. Don't give "it" the pleasure of reading respones to the bait.

Hey Krupp,
Thanks for sharing the insight of your research. I will make sure not to pay any attention to "It".... nor will I make any more attempts to engage or flame "it".

Because "it" obviously has small genitalia as well as minimal mental capacity. It's really quite amazing that "It" has evolved enough to type into a computer let alone even plug it into the wall. I wonder how many times "It" shocked itself doing that....

Let's not speak of "it" again...LOL.

You rock K!
Z
post #58 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

Wait a minute... you're calling me a shill because I question Apple on its hardware pricing.

You, on the other hand, unquestionably follow Apple in whatever decision they make regardless of the outcome or motive behind them. If there is any question about who a shill is in this discussion, it would be you.




I'm talking about getting gouged on the hardware, not the software. The hardware Apple sells is the same hardware other PC manufacturers sell, just encased in an Apple-branded shell.


I think you may have hurt "It"'s feeler or something Krupps.....

Hey "It"...... Apple makes and designs it's hardware/package. This is still America despite your vapid whining..... Apple can charge whatever they want and most importantly.... what the market is willing to PAY. This may be a foreign idea but Apple is actually in business to make $ and there's nothing wrong with that. Free Market Economics..... fancy set of words I know... but look them up. If you want to save $ then buy a used machine or a mini.

Man I did it Krupps.... I tried to engage "It" again.... that's it... I'll get back to work now.

Z
post #59 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

But the most eyebrow-raising element remains the 18th paragraph, which explicitly states that Apple believes ten unknown people or companies -- each nicknamed "John Doe" -- have contributed on some level to the numerous violations named in the amended suit.



Quick, somebody call Jack Bauer to save the day!



Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

"On information and belief, persons other than Psystar are involved in Psystar’s unlawful and improper activities described in this Amended Complaint," the new section reads. "The true names or capacities, whether individual, corporate, or otherwise, of these persons are unknown to Apple. Apple will seek leave to amend this complaint to show the unknown John Doe Defendants’ true names and capacities when they are ascertained."




It was Mr. Mustard, in the library, behind the IT book shelf collection with a bottle of catsup! (So much for my "Clue®" interpretation...)


No really it is the legend of Nick Ciarelli and Think Secrets revenge! Muahhahahahaha...



Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

The statement is seen as uncharacteristic for Apple, which is throwing the full weight of both its legal team and its fact-finding resources behind a case against a comparatively small target. Erwan Hamon of Groklaw suggests not only that Apple may have reason to believe in a wider conspiracy but that Psystar's defiant posture may stem from the support of others behind the scenes.


Support by the X86 Development Team! Maybe... or Maybe it's that MS character that plays the "I'm a PC and I've been made into a stereotype" clone to Apple's "I'm a PC" star John Hodgman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

While no direct clues have surfaced as to who if anyone might support Psystar, the company's Mac clones are known to be using pre-made, third-party code to bypass Apple's usual checks for official firmware during the Mac OS X Leopard installation process. The unofficial vendor's primary culpability is to perform the bootleg installations itself and market the systems as capable of running the Mac operating system despite Apple's licensing terms that forbid use on anything but its own computers.


The quickest way to find out who did it, is for Apple to go back through it's employee records and see who they fired a few months before Pystart stated selling Mac clones.

Ten years ago, we had Steve Jobs, Bob Hope and Johnny Cash.  Today we have no Jobs, no Hope and no Cash.

Reply

Ten years ago, we had Steve Jobs, Bob Hope and Johnny Cash.  Today we have no Jobs, no Hope and no Cash.

Reply
post #60 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmjoe View Post

I wish Psystar my best here, but this is unfortunately where DMCA stifles competition and innovation.

WHAT?!?!?!?!

Fucking hello? Psystar - Innovation?????

Psystar = Fucking hacking thieving bastards. And even then they are only able to do that because of the work done by others in the OSX86 scene.

Its unbelievable the number of idiots that believe its their god given right to nick other peoples software or dictate to a company how they should do business. Get with the real world FFS.
post #61 of 102
Just a question here... how does something like the Axiotron Modbook work then? Is that another hardware maker using OSX as an operating system? How do they get away with it?
I'm just asking so please don't rip my head off.
post #62 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

A judge already threw out Psystar's anti-trust and monopoly claims that mirror your own words. Apple does offer HW that others don't have, but you have at the whole machine, not just the parts that can be found in other PCs. You also have to understand some basics about business and how that trying to force Apple to socialize its OS is not an aspect of a free market because OS X and Mac are not a market, they are simply part of the PC market.

except that Psystar has until December 8th to respond... it's not completely out yet.

and note the judges decision which states
Quote:
but added that Psystar's pleadings "fail to allege facts plausibly supporting the counterintuitive claim that Apple’s operating system is so unique that it suffers no actual or potential competitors."

thus the judge is not approving of apple's business model but effectively saying that due to being too small a market share it doesn't affect enough people

don't think for an instant the US govt or the EU wouldn't haul Apple into court for business models such as this if they had the same market share as MS.
post #63 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaphodsplanet View Post

I think you may have hurt "It"'s feeler or something Krupps.....

Hey "It"...... Apple makes and designs it's hardware/package. This is still America despite your vapid whining..... Apple can charge whatever they want and most importantly.... what the market is willing to PAY. This may be a foreign idea but Apple is actually in business to make $ and there's nothing wrong with that. Free Market Economics..... fancy set of words I know... but look them up. If you want to save $ then buy a used machine or a mini.

Man I did it Krupps.... I tried to engage "It" again.... that's it... I'll get back to work now.

Z

I rest my case.
post #64 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaphodsplanet View Post

I think you may have hurt "It"'s feeler or something Krupps.....

Hey "It"...... Apple makes and designs it's hardware/package. This is still America despite your vapid whining..... Apple can charge whatever they want and most importantly.... what the market is willing to PAY. This may be a foreign idea but Apple is actually in business to make $ and there's nothing wrong with that. Free Market Economics..... fancy set of words I know... but look them up. If you want to save $ then buy a used machine or a mini.

Man I did it Krupps.... I tried to engage "It" again.... that's it... I'll get back to work now.

Z

The free market describes a situation where there are individuals willing to pay for a range prices offered by individuals within the Mac market, including Psystar, for the same hardware and the same software that Apple offers. I think you are confused about the economics behind this whole discussion.

By the way, when you say such juvenile things, referencing your comments to genitalia or mental capacity, you only bring attention to your own deficiencies.
Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

Ste...
Reply
Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

Ste...
Reply
post #65 of 102
Competition is a good thing. Apple needs to get its act together on pricing and start offering discounts on its products to start competing with Psystar.
Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

Ste...
Reply
Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

Ste...
Reply
post #66 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by irnchriz View Post

WHAT?!?!?!?!

Fucking hello? Psystar - Innovation?????

Psystar = Fucking hacking thieving bastards. And even then they are only able to do that because of the work done by others in the OSX86 scene.

Its unbelievable the number of idiots that believe its their god given right to nick other peoples software or dictate to a company how they should do business. Get with the real world FFS.

As far as I remember, they are paying for the retail copies of the OS, one per computer.
post #67 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSummerNight View Post

Blah. MS added a extended warranty. I'm sure you do tell people to get the replacement plan, it's your job. Just like the people in the Apple store try to get you get Apple Care. My friend has a 360 and it's fine. Stop spreading bullshit lies about products. I'd like to know how you can see into the future and see his 360 dying.

Ever have to deal with Microsoft's extended warranty? Get the store replacement plan, it is MUCH easier. BTW, Microsoft was pretty much forced to extend the warranty (on the red ring of death only) because of the number of quality issues. But arranging a repair or replacement from Microsoft is a HUGE pain. As far as it being my job to tell people that? I'm confused, I design buildings, how would telling people to buy replacement plans on XBoxes be part of my job?
post #68 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterO View Post

(not to put words in Marvin's mouth but) I think his point is that large IP and licensing issues aside, Psystar is targeting a market niche that Apple leaves unserved; and, that Apple servicing that niche alone will squash Psystar.

I completely understand that rationale. However, one cannot put aside IP and licensing issues in this case. If Apple does not want to service that niche market (for whatever reason), that does not in any way grant another company from essentially hijacking Apple's IP property without permission and running ahead with it.

I don't sit around pondering why Apple is not helping me by making a lower-end MacPro. They're not doing it. I move on with my life. Quite a few people here spend too much time locked up in their parent's basement to not have that ability I suppose.

Let Psystar (or their backers) develop their own OSX competitor and run with it. Oh wait, that would take serious capital and R&D effort. Why do that when they can just rip-off Apple?
post #69 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross View Post

don't think for an instant the US govt or the EU wouldn't haul Apple into court for business models such as this if they had the same market share as MS.

Exactly!

Apple has nowhere near the market share of Windows... so why the hell do you keep on about antitrust?
post #70 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser777 View Post

Just a question here... how does something like the Axiotron Modbook work then? Is that another hardware maker using OSX as an operating system? How do they get away with it?
I'm just asking so please don't rip my head off.

I think they use an actual Apple brand computer and then modify it to be a tablet.
The original computer is authorized to use the OS, so I guess it is OK.
post #71 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser777 View Post

Just a question here... how does something like the Axiotron Modbook work then? Is that another hardware maker using OSX as an operating system? How do they get away with it?
I'm just asking so please don't rip my head off.

Axiotron take Macs from Apple and modify them by replacing the display with a touch display so Apple are still making their hardware sale.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal

So then you support company 'B' for stealing the IP of company 'A', markets and sells the product using the stolen IP from company 'A' simply because of the argument that company 'A' does not make what the community wants so therefore company 'B' is justified in filling that niche while company 'A' does all the work and receives nothing?

Nice argument.

And don't even tell me that Apple does get their revenue from Psystar buying the $129 retail license UPGRADE!

Psystar bundle a copy of the OS and charge the user for it:

"The price includes a retail copy of Leopard in its original package."

They aren't stealing any IP except from the OSX86 team. They are building their own computers and buying software to run on it. It's similar to Microsoft making an app to run on Windows and someone building an application like Crossover to run it without needing to buy Windows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterO

(not to put words in Marvin's mouth but) I think his point is that large IP and licensing issues aside, Psystar is targeting a market niche that Apple leaves unserved; and, that Apple servicing that niche alone will squash Psystar.

That's right. Although I also want to see Apple suffer for the bad decisions I think they make . It's true none of us have a right to make that kind of assertion really but take the analogy of fishing.

If there is a shortage of fish in the sea and it is in everyone's best interests to fish less; given that fish are a natural resource, why does anyone have the right to say to an individual they can't fish? The reason is that preventing the unethical behavior of a minority is in the interests of the majority.

Apple are being the unethical ones here IMO because they are not only saying if you want to use OS X, you must buy into their hardware models, they are also saying you can only buy any 3rd party Mac OS X software if you buy into their hardware model. Microsoft doesn't do that and they encourage a free market.

It's not illegal and I don't think Psystar have a case but I'm still on their side because I'm squarely in the camp rooting for a mid-range headless Mac and I'm not moving. This is what Psystar are selling and doing so are saying to Apple, this is what people are asking for and if you won't provide it then we will. That is how the free market works, supply and demand. If you don't meet the demand, people will use whatever means to do so. This is how Napster arose, people wanted the convenience of digital downloads but nobody would offer it legitimately. Now Apple and others come along and meet the demand legally.

Yes, Napster did things illegally and they got shut down. This will likely happen to Psystar although I haven't seen anything illegal besides possibly breaking an EULA. But this issue won't back down just through a lawsuit. I'm not being swayed by Apple no matter how shiny they make the screens, it's not what I want. Many others are the same.

It will back down when Apple step up to the plate and offer options. It's not the same kind of thing as saying well Eizo make expensive displays, they should be made to sell more affordable products so that I can use a good product but still afford it. This isn't the issue. If you can't afford it, you can get any other display and do the same job. Buying a personal computer and an OS covers so much of an industry that one company in control of the whole thing becomes a monopoly.

Apple are monopolizing the phone industry right now. What if you want to setup an app store to host and sell iphone apps? You can't do it. Is it illegal? No, but I think it's unethical. People want the freedom to choose what apps to offer and what apps to download, hence we have people turning to jailbreaking and installer.app.

Consumers want freedom, businesses want control. You can never have all of both but Apple always takes too much control and some consumers want their freedom back.
post #72 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Point taken, and it is unfortunate.

But most digital stores have region issues. How well does iTunes serve your region?

only the App Store runs at full steam with all the stuff the same as USA App Store.
Rights and Regions mess everything for us. At least can download podcast from USA store
But still you can find here almost everything but blue ray movies. Very small selection, maybe 30
movies.
Macs still mostly $300.00 above USA price but some models doesn't warm up the shelf like the new MB & MBP.
post #73 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

Exactly!

Apple has nowhere near the market share of Windows... so why the hell do you keep on about antitrust?

because it's a position which goes against anti-trust laws
and they'll slip under the radar just because the market share isn't big enough to warrant chasing
are you trying to say that their business model doesn't break either US or anti-trust models ?

check out tying which is one of the anti-trust practises
you want to buy my OS, you'll have to buy my hardware...
Apple will get away with this for a while under one of the get out clauses (number 3)
Quote:
Success on a tying claim typically requires proof of four elements:
(1) two separate products or services are involved;
(2) the purchase of the tying product is conditioned on the additional purchase of the tied product;
(3) the seller has sufficient market power in the market for the tying product;
(4) a not insubstantial amount of interstate commerce in the tied product market is affected.

but only until market share increases..
post #74 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

It's not illegal and I don't think Psystar have a case but I'm still on their side because I'm squarely in the camp rooting for a mid-range headless Mac and I'm not moving.

That says it all really doesn't it? You want a product from a company.... and they don't make it. That's not unethical. That's just bad luck for you.

In order to back up this sense of entitlement people start shouting that "it must be illegal" and wrongly quote cases and legal matters they they clearly don't understand properly.

Then a judge tosses all the antitrust stuff out of the window and the claim changes to "immoral" or "unethical".

And for good measure, we normally get the statement that there are millions of people demanding the 'missing' systems from Apple, and Apple could make a lot of money from filling the gap. Ironic really when, in the same breath Apple is accused of being greedy.
post #75 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

Competition is a good thing. Apple needs to get its act together on pricing and start offering discounts on its products to start competing with Psystar.

No... What needs to happen is for me to talk to your parents and ask them not let you out of the basement anymore. I hear trolls are happy in dark and damp areas.
post #76 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Psystar bundle a copy of the OS and charge the user for it:

"The price includes a retail copy of Leopard in its original package."

They aren't stealing any IP except from the OSX86 team. They are building their own computers and buying software to run on it. It's similar to Microsoft making an app to run on Windows and someone building an application like Crossover to run it without needing to buy Windows.

Yes, Napster did things illegally and they got shut down. This will likely happen to Psystar although I haven't seen anything illegal besides possibly breaking an EULA.

So you tell me that Psystar is okay because they charge the buyers for the retail copy of OSX (an UPGRADE not FULL LICENSE) and then turn around a few paragraphs later and say they are breaking the EULA?

You're flip-flopping everything to rationalize this. It doesn't matter what company/manufacturer/etc is being discussed. As long as they are not breaking any laws, they don't have to sell to you if they don't want to. Most people just accept that and move on with their lives. You on the other hand decide that if I can't get product 'A' legally, then I will basically get it on the black market.

Who cares if Apple is not achieving full market-penetration by not serving that niche? It is their right to do whatever they want to do with their product. Why is this concept so hard for people to understand and accept?
post #77 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Apple are monopolizing the phone industry right now. What if you want to setup an app store to host and sell iphone apps? You can't do it. Is it illegal? No, but I think it's unethical. People want the freedom to choose what apps to offer and what apps to download, hence we have people turning to jailbreaking and installer.app.

Consumers want freedom, businesses want control. You can never have all of both but Apple always takes too much control and some consumers want their freedom back.

Consumers have absolute freedom already. Nothing has been taken away from them. Last time I checked, Nokia, Samsung, Motorola, Blackberry, etc.. all make phones too and users are more than happy and welcomed to buy from a different company. Just like their Macs, when you buy their iPhone, you're actually buying their ecosystem, not just the phone itself. This model has been hugely successful for them.

In the beginning, everyone praises Apple for introducing the iPhone and "sticking it to the man" (the wireless industry) and revolutionizing the smartphone market. But after the honeymoon is over, you put Apple over the coals for being "too successful" and scream "monopoly" and "conspiracy". Get over yourselves!

The truth is that any other person/company would love to be in the position Apple is in and would do everything and anything (legally) to keep them at the top just like Jobs has.
post #78 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

As far as I remember, they are paying for the retail copies of the OS, one per computer.

Those are upgrades, so what OS is Psystar upgrading FROM? did Apple licence them the use of Apples proprietary OS?

NOPE.

a point many seem to miss, or just plain fail to understand.
I don't see how an anti M$ stance can be seen as a bad thing on an Apple forum I really can't!

nagromme - According to Amazon: "SpongBob Typing Tutor" is outselling Windows
Reply
I don't see how an anti M$ stance can be seen as a bad thing on an Apple forum I really can't!

nagromme - According to Amazon: "SpongBob Typing Tutor" is outselling Windows
Reply
post #79 of 102
I call Ballmer.

-Or Cheney.
"-but Jimmy has fear? A thousand times no. I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey strong bowels were girded with strength like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the...
Reply
"-but Jimmy has fear? A thousand times no. I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey strong bowels were girded with strength like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the...
Reply
post #80 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

That says it all really doesn't it? You want a product from a company.... and they don't make it. That's not unethical. That's just bad luck for you.

Maybe but as I say, when you are in a market like the personal computer industry, it has such a huge impact on everyday life that having one company dictate all the rules in all aspects of the chain is anti-competitive.

Put it another way, the only way they are getting away with this is because they don't have a large market share. If they had a 90% share like Microsoft and a whole load of legacy software was tied to their OS for whatever reasons, I'm pretty sure they would be made to give up their hardware control to enable a free market.

Again is it illegal? No but back to the fish analogy, if the minority behaves in a way that adversely affects a majority then measures will be made to keep the system fair for everyone despite there seeming to be no reason why the minority can act however they please.

This is where the stories about Microsoft and IE come in. Was bundling IE with Windows illegal? Of course not so what was the problem? Microsoft used their OS uniquity to gain an unfair browser market share that no 3rd party developer could match and still hasn't matched to this day. Who decides what's fair and unfair? To Microsoft, the move is clearly unfair as they did nothing illegal but to a majority of people wanting an open, free internet, it wasn't in their best interests.

To people wanting an open, free personal computer system, Apple's business model is similarly not in the interests of a majority. Like I say, the fact they don't have a majority share is the only thing that makes their setup acceptable. The bigger it grows, the less fair it becomes as thousands upon thousand of people lose their jobs as a result of not being able to compete.

Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

And for good measure, we normally get the statement that there are millions of people demanding the 'missing' systems from Apple, and Apple could make a lot of money from filling the gap. Ironic really when, in the same breath Apple is accused of being greedy.

Greedy for control, not for money. I don't think people care if Apple make a lot of money from it so long as their supply meets consumer demand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal

So you tell me that Psystar is okay because they charge the buyers for the retail copy of OSX (an UPGRADE not FULL LICENSE) and then turn around a few paragraphs later and say they are breaking the EULA?

You said they stole the IP, they didn't if they bought a full copy of Leopard for each system. Breaking the EUA doesn't change that. If it is indeed an upgrade disc then I would agree that's wrong, how do you know this is the case?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal

Just like their Macs, when you buy their iPhone, you're actually buying their ecosystem, not just the phone itself. This model has been hugely successful for them.

It's not that easy to equate every object in different markets and say they work the same way. Mobile phone unlocking is considered fair to a lot of people, phone companies don't think it's a problem tying someone to a network for 18 months. I personally think that practice should be illegal or made 6 months at most. Technology moves on quickly but you are forced into an older system for 1.5 years or else have to pay up the whole amount to buy out of it - subsidies complicate things but still.

If you buy a car, the manufacturer would love to have you get repairs done at the dealership but people tend to go to a local mechanic to get it done for a fraction of the price. This is a fair system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal

In the beginning, everyone praises Apple for introducing the iPhone and "sticking it to the man" (the wireless industry) and revolutionizing the smartphone market. But after the honeymoon is over, you put Apple over the coals for being "too successful" and scream "monopoly" and "conspiracy". Get over yourselves!

I'm not sure that the same people said the same things but it's not hypocritical to have both opinions at once. Yes it is good that they shook up the industry but you can also observe that they are attempting to monopolize it at the same time. In fact under the same circumstances. Windows mobile and symbian are not exclusive to one device.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal

The truth is that any other person/company would love to be in the position Apple is in and would do everything and anything to keep them at the top just like Jobs has.

That I agree with. Exclusivity is one of the strongest selling points for any given brand, games consoles are one example. No XBox game can ever run on a PS3, you have to buy the hardware in order to run it. It's not illegal but it's unethical. If you pay for a much more expensive PS3 and find that Gears of War only runs on an XBox, it's not a nice experience. I guess a more appropriate example would be owning a cheaper XBox and wanting to play Resistance, which is only available for the more expensive PS3.

Does this mean that you have the right to expect Resistance for the cheaper machine? Not really but it's an anti-competitive practice. Again it's freedom vs control. Sony wants more control over the game market, gamers want the freedom to have ultimate choice of software. In a world where credit card companies who cause financial crises are bailed out by governments during times of financial crisis, who has the right to say what's fair any more?

Do we always allow businesses to dictate whatever terms they like? Imagine if Microsoft suddenly put in their EULA that if you purchase Windows, you can only ever use it with a Microsoft mouse. Is it their right to do that? Or would their market share make that move anti-competitive?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Mac OS X
AppleInsider › Forums › Software › Mac OS X › Expanded Apple lawsuit claims Psystar part of a larger plot