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Psystar emboldens "OpeniMac" copycat clone maker - Page 2

post #41 of 87
This is exactly what Apple needs to bring to the market:
A MID SIZE TOWER FOR ABOUT $1,000
Without such a product, rip offs will continue to blossom. Mid towers are ideal for businesses, and many IT personnel are not budging to compromise with a mac mini or an imac.
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post #42 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

Apple should just remove the ability to purchase retail copies of OSX. ...

I've often wondered why they don't do this.

The box would have to still be sold or no one could upgrade their machines, but it does seem like simply putting the word "upgrade" on the box would stifle all arguments definitively.

- If the OS is not actually for sale, then it's a given that you are stealing it when you install it on another machine.

- If it's an upgrade to computers already running some version of OS-X, then you don't need all that ambiguous junk about "Apple certified" or "Apple branded" computers.

By having the retail box, especially by having two versions (full and upgrade), they are confusing the issue unnecessarily and leaving themselves open to these kinds of lawsuits.
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post #43 of 87
Apple should put a stop to this by removing from open sales the retail upgrade version of their OSX system. Period!

All upgrades can be done through software update or in special circumstances where the customer doesn't have a broadband connection they could order the DVD by phone with a proper hardware serial number or have it installed in their stores by an Apple authorized technician. If Apple doesn't do this, they will have no other choice but to put copy protection on the software to stop Psystar and the other foreign based counterfeiters. It'll only get worse if they don't.

Are you listening Apple?
post #44 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasper View Post

I don't agree with you guys, or I'd happily change the title. And we're back to this nonsense again, Spam? Claiming we don't do our homework? Claiming speculation when there is none?

There's nothing in the article that's speculative. I value you as a member of the community, but please man... All the title implies is that the existence of Psystar has "spawned" ( essentially given birth to) another Mac copycat dealer.

I guess we could use "emboldens" but I still don't agree that there's something wrong with our title.

K

@K: I agree with you. That's the way I read it. The article doesn't imply a connection other than giving birth to a copycat.
post #45 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

This is just wrong.

I don't know what the first phrasing Kasper used was, but "emboldens" in no way shape or form implies a connection between the companies. You are just wrong to think so.

Not to drag this out, but this word choice also implies a direct effect of Psystar on this company's decision making.. If someone at this new company stated, "We saw what Psystar did and we thought this looked like a great time to move into a new market", then you have proof that supports the claim. The article could have stated that "unnamed sources within the company have said...".

Without a source, this is a connection being made in the mind of the author. It's not rocket science.

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post #46 of 87
What about the fact that the prices quoted arent right you only save 200 dollars off list to buy one of these clones id rather have the apple unit frankly.
post #47 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by archer75 View Post

Wouldn't make any difference. Copy protection of any form can be cracked easily. Not selling copies doesn't matter as your mac comes with a restore disc which will be posted online for download.
Hackintosh's are easy to build, as you can see other companies are forming to sell this desktops running OSX. Really the only choice for apple is to mount a pile of legal fees fighting all these or offer a midrange tower that people want and lower prices. Or make OSX available for other computers. Until they do that these companies will pop up all over and people will still build hackintosh's.

I suppose they could use PA Semi to put their OS on a encrypted firmware chip. Sure it could be cracked but cracking every individual machine wound not be commercially viable and easier to sue in court.
post #48 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljocampo View Post

Apple should put a stop to this by removing from open sales the retail upgrade version of their OSX system. Period!

All upgrades can be done through software update or in special circumstances where the customer doesn't have a broadband connection they could order the DVD by phone with a proper hardware serial number or have it installed in their stores by an Apple authorized technician. If Apple doesn't do this, they will have no other choice but to put copy protection on the software to stop Psystar and the other foreign based counterfeiters. It'll only get worse if they don't.

Are you listening Apple?


1. Psystar broke copyright when they hacked official updates and redistributed them to their

clients. Implementing copy protection would not ward off companies that are willing to illegally alter something to get what they want. Hello!? DRM only hurts authorized users! Psystar = Pirates

2. Can you imagine having to install 10.5 then having to sit and wait for 10.6 to download, then

install, and repeating for every subsequent OS until you replace the machine? If I have to do a format of my machine I want to re-install the

latest OS and have to sit through only the point upgrades (which takes a good amount of time themselves!). 3. Apple's servers go down on release days for some versions of iPhone OS distributions because

of too much traffic! And you want to distribute full OSs? And make paying customers haul in their whole dang MacPro, or iMac just to install an OS if they do not have BB or do not want to download it? Release day will be fun!

post #49 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Not to drag this out, but ...

I think when it comes down to it, it's also fairly impossible to prove that we even exist, (at least to prove it beyond all doubt.)
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post #50 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by webhead View Post

Embolden/spawn sounds OK to me. Psystar's actions have obviously helped fuel the rise of other equally stupid companies, whether direct or indirect.

I thought there was another company somewhere else in South America that tried this before Psystar did. Just that they were shut down very quickly that they were hardly noticed, I think there were two AI articles about it and then that was it. It seems they tried to sell on eBay or something like that, it is pretty easy to get eBay to shut down an infringing auction once you're a verified rights owner.

I don't think it is unreasonable to say that there was a weak causal link, where news of Psystar's activities was enough to convince someone else to give it a try. I don't know how well it can be prosecuted in Argentina, though I'm sure Apple will see what their options are.
post #51 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwarf420 View Post

1. Psystar broke copyright when they hacked official updates and redistributed them to their[INDENT]clients.

You don't have to hack official updates. You can download them direct from apple
post #52 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by archer75 View Post

You don't have to hack official updates. You can download them direct from apple

Yes. They downloaded them, hacked them to work on Psystar machines, then distributed them to Psystar machine owners.

Apple sued Psystar for copyright infringement not the use of OS X on unofficial hardware. They let it go for so long because they didn't have a solid legal ground (only the EULA) until Psystar distributed altered versions of the updates.
post #53 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwarf420 View Post

1. Psystar broke copyright when they hacked official updates and redistributed them to their

clients. Implementing copy protection would not ward off companies that are willing to illegally alter something to get what they want. Hello!? DRM only hurts authorized users! Psystar = Pirates

2. Can you imagine having to install 10.5 then having to sit and wait for 10.6 to download, then

install, and repeating for every subsequent OS until you replace the machine? If I have to do a format of my machine I want to re-install the

latest OS and have to sit through only the point upgrades (which takes a good amount of time themselves!). 3. Apple's servers go down on release days for some versions of iPhone OS distributions because

of too much traffic! And you want to distribute full OSs? And make paying customers haul in their whole dang MacPro, or iMac just to install an OS if they do not have BB or do not want to download it? Release day will be fun!


Because you don't like this solution doesn't mean it won't work. Installs don't have to go point to point. They can be make to upgrade straight through to the most recent. Apple has done this in other installs and they can do it for the OS. I have download xCode 3.0 which is much larger than the Leopard download and it didn't take more than 10 minutes. I don't have the faster BB connection. And about overloading Apple's servers they scale for that besides I doubt OS upgrade purchases will add much bandwidth to the equation. It can work.

However, I speculate (as I mentioned above) that Apple will probably go the firmware chip way in the future because it will give them security and faster booting. They had this using Basic in the beginning and it worked very well. Just my thoughts.
post #54 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwarf420 View Post

Yes. They downloaded them, hacked them to work on Psystar machines, then distributed them to Psystar machine owners.

Apple sued Psystar for copyright infringement not the use of OS X on unofficial hardware. They let it go for so long because they didn't have a solid legal ground (only the EULA) until Psystar distributed altered versions of the updates.

Again, you do NOT have to hack updates to work on a hackintosh, which is what pystars are. They can be installed directly from software update. Trust me.

Some point releases require that you manually download the combo update direct from apple and then run a script while you install it.

But no updates have to be modified.

Pystar has completely disabled this type of update from software update and thus hasen't hacked anything.
post #55 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I thought there was another company somewhere else in South America that tried this before Psystar did. Just that they were shut down very quickly that they were hardly noticed, I think there were two AI articles about it and then that was it. It seems they tried to sell on eBay or something like that, it is pretty easy to get eBay to shut down an infringing auction once you're a verified rights owner.

I don't think it is unreasonable to say that there was a weak causal link, where news of Psystar's activities was enough to convince someone else to give it a try. I don't know how well it can be prosecuted in Argentina, though I'm sure Apple will see what their options are.

There was Open Tech out of New Zealand.
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post #56 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

... those are fairly rubbish specs for the price. Dell's $949 desktop has a quad-core 2.66 GHz Core i7, 3 GB RAM, 500 GB HDD, 16x DVD burner and 256 MB ATI Radeon 3450 HD.

I think that we need to keep in mind that this is in Argentina. You may be able to build or buy that here in the US for a better price, but the computer is not being sold here.

I was curious so looked up the price of an iMac in Argentina. It's 6299 Argentinian Pesos, which converts (at today's exchange rate of 3.45 to 1) to about $1800. So, the headless OpeniMac undercuts it by half. That's a pretty steep discount to an Argentinian, I reckon. I bet some people would be willing to buy these, just like Psystar got some willing buyers.

Here's the link to the Argentinian Apple site: http://www.macstation.com.ar/store/i...cat=13&code=97

Exchange rate: http://www.exchange-rates.org/history/ARS/USD/G/30

-Brandon
post #57 of 87
I think Apple should set up an App store for the mac, and then off the OSX upgrades through that store, that should stop the clone makers.
post #58 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adjei View Post

I think Apple should set up an App store for the mac, and then off the OSX upgrades through that store, that should stop the clone makers.

Then they jail break their macs and get the software elsewhere. You can't stop any of this. Apple has to sell the products people want at prices that are the same or cheaper than these clones. Then people will buy from apple instead. That is the only option. You can talk about copy protection and other things all you want but the fact remains you can get around all of it.
post #59 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

I think when it comes down to it, it's also fairly impossible to prove that we even exist, (at least to prove it beyond all doubt.)

But you can call another source to confirm that you and I do exist.

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post #60 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljocampo View Post

I suppose they could use PA Semi to put their OS on a encrypted firmware chip. Sure it could be cracked but cracking every individual machine wound not be commercially viable and easier to sue in court.

The old mac will not have the chip and apple will shooting them selfs big time by locking out all the new intel macs on the new os.
post #61 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by archer75 View Post

Then they jail break their macs and get the software elsewhere. You can't stop any of this. Apple has to sell the products people want at prices that are the same or cheaper than these clones. Then people will buy from apple instead. That is the only option. You can talk about copy protection and other things all you want but the fact remains you can get around all of it.

But who says people are buying these computers to even affect Apple's business?
post #62 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adjei View Post

But who says people are buying these computers to even affect Apple's business?

I never said they were. People aren't trying to affect apple's business, at least not the consumers. They just want a machine that is cheap and upgradable.
post #63 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by archer75 View Post

Again, you do NOT have to hack updates to work on a hackintosh, which is what pystars are. They can be installed directly from software update. Trust me.

Some point releases require that you manually download the combo update direct from apple and then run a script while you install it.

But no updates have to be modified.

Pystar has completely disabled this type of update from software update and thus hasen't hacked anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider

The Mac maker filed a formal complaint in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California on July 3rd, just one day after Psystar began distributing a modified version of the Mac OS X 10.5.4 Leopard update to customers who had previously purchased one of its unauthorized Mac systems.

Source = http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...r_psystar.html
post #64 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwarf420 View Post

Source = http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...r_psystar.html

Updates are NOT why they are being sued as you had originally stated.

"Mac OS X end-user license agreement, which prohibits third-party installations of Mac OS X on non-Apple hardware"

That is why they are being sued.

And it doesn't change the fact that on hackintosh's you can use official apple, unmodified, updates. Pystar is also not allowing point updates. The author of the article is mistaken or doesn't quite understand how this all works. However on psystar's own site they make no mention of updates one way or the other. I'm just telling you how updates on hackintosh's work.

Spend some time on some osx86 forums and you'll see how it all works.
post #65 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by archer75 View Post

Then they jail break their macs and get the software elsewhere. You can't stop any of this. Apple has to sell the products people want at prices that are the same or cheaper than these clones. Then people will buy from apple instead. That is the only option. You can talk about copy protection and other things all you want but the fact remains you can get around all of it.

Sure individuals can get around it BUT to crack it for commercial purposes is not profitable particularly if each Mac had to be cracked individually. Your solution won't work either because the minute Apple lowers the price to clone level, the clone makers will go even lower with cheap junk inside the box.
post #66 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by archer75 View Post

I never said they were. People aren't trying to affect apple's business, at least not the consumers. They just want a machine that is cheap and upgradable.

Cheap and upgradable aren't words that are associated with Macs.
post #67 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_the_dragon View Post

The old mac will not have the chip and apple will shooting them selfs big time by locking out all the new intel macs on the new os.

Don't you think PA Semi is capable of coding for Intel? All their new machine would have the chip, and yeah the older machines won't have the chip but people said Apple was shooting themselves in the foot when Apple (alone) stopped offering floppy drives. In fact Apple has a history of leaving legacy behind. A great example is OS X itself didn't carry legacy along. That's why they don't have the problems that Windows does.
post #68 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adjei View Post

Cheap and upgradable aren't words that are associated with Macs.

People who understand computers, who have built them, know about the parts inside. There is nothing magical inside a mac that separates it from a PC. They are just off the shelf PC parts. They can be built very inexpensively and still not be "cheap".

You are correct on upgradable. And it's sad really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ljocampo View Post

Sure individuals can get around it BUT to crack it for commercial purposes is not profitable particularly if each Mac had to be cracked individually. Your solution won't work either because the minute Apple lowers the price to clone level, the clone makers will go even lower with cheap junk inside the box.

You don't have to crack it individually. You just hack the part of the OS that looks for that firmware/chip/whatever and stop it. Then post for download.
Commercially, companies would always purchase from apple, a legitamite source. The legal risk for the company is too great to do otherwise.

You can't go much lower on price than where they are now. Boards are pretty generic and are not expensive until you get into high end boards for overclocking and such. Video cards are all Nvidia and ATI chipsets and all the card makers make good stuff. You can get quality motherboards with no frills for $50 or less. There just isn't much to computer parts. And there reaches a price point where you will just buy direct than something else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ljocampo View Post

Don't you think PA Semi is capable of coding for Intel? All their new machine would have the chip, and yeah the older machines won't have the chip but people said Apple was shooting themselves in the foot when Apple (alone) stopped offering floppy drives. In fact Apple has a history of leaving legacy behind. A great example is OS X itself didn't carry legacy along. That's why they don't have the problems that Windows does.

And it would be cracked in a heart beat. There is no copy protection that can be placed in an OS that cannot be easily cracked. The people who own macs and buy upgrade copies will still do so, those who build hackintosh's will still do so. Nothing will change.
post #69 of 87
What I would like to know is who is behind the scenes supporting PsyStar? How can such a small company afford a high profile law firm?
post #70 of 87
I'm wondering how long Apple will wait until they sue the OSX86 project (or at least try to shut them down) ...

PS: I first tried OSX86, it was amazing, but slow ... then I bought a "real" Mac
post #71 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by archer75 View Post

And it would be cracked in a heart beat. There is no copy protection that can be placed in an OS that cannot be easily cracked. The people who own macs and buy upgrade copies will still do so, those who build hackintosh's will still do so. Nothing will change.

If each mac had the OS on an encrypted chip cracking firmware upgrades would not work because most of the core would be already on the chip and each firmware upgrade could be encrypted using the Mac's unique serial plus a secret number that only Apple knows as the random number generated for the key. You have to hack every individual Mac. Cracking the firmware upgrade once would only work for that machine. Sure it still be done by hobbyist geeks but it wouldn't be profitable for the likes of Psystar.
post #72 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljocampo View Post

If each mac had the OS on an encrypted chip cracking firmware upgrades would not work because most of the core would be already on the chip and each firmware upgrade could be encrypted using the Mac's unique serial plus a secret number that only Apple knows as the random number generated for the key. You have to hack every individual Mac. Cracking the firmware upgrade once would only work for that machine. Sure it still be done by hobbyist geeks but it wouldn't be profitable for the likes of Psystar.

They aren't going to put the entire OS, gigs and gigs, on an encrypted chip. You would need to write to the OS. All your data would be stored in files. You'd have to have everything on another drive and then your data wouldn't fit in the default folders that are setup. End users would have to setup aliases, it would be a mess.
And it would be too slow and too expensive. And doing every single little operation that would require decrypting and encrypting on that chip would be a nightmare.

Key checks can be disabled/bypassed/cracked. You can fool it to think it's talking to apple for verification. And should your mac not be connected to the net......

At best you can have a TPM module on the motherboard that the OS is tied to. However that is also easy to crack.



Not. Gonna. Happen.
post #73 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by archer75 View Post

Updates are NOT why they are being sued as you had originally stated.

Obviously you have a lot more experience with Hackintosh[es?]. I'd heard that most updates did fine but with ones causing issues every now and then. But, if the suit was purely based on the EULA provisions, Apple wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on (no legal precendent). This is why it took them so long to sue Psystar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDNet

UPDATE 07/15 14:15pm PDT: A note to those who think that this suit is about EULAs Psystar did a LOT more than breach the terms of the EULA. The company, through its own admission, modified the copyrighted work, then distributed those modifications without license and for commercial purposes. The company also used at least one Apple trademark in its marketing.

If this was just about the EULA, Apples case might not be that strong (remember, the EULAs never been tested in court), but this goes way beyond the EULA.http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=2240
post #74 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwarf420 View Post

Obviously you have a lot more experience with Hackintosh[es?]. I'd heard that most updates did fine but with ones causing issues every now and then. But, if the suit was purely based on the EULA provisions, Apple wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on (no legal precendent). This is why it took them so long to sue Psystar.

They are talking about the modified OS they are selling. Not modified updates. A modified OS. It would have to, and does, include a EFI emulator.

The 16-page document, filed in U.S. District Court in San Francisco, states that, in April of this year, Psystar began selling a computer called OpenMac (later renamed Open Computer), which apparently runs a modified unauthorized version of the Leopard operating system. It further alleges that, in June, Psystar began selling rack-mount servers called the OpenServ 100 and Open Serv 2400 - products that again run Leopard.

Though there are now EFI motherboards and even a USB EFI device that allows you to install OSX directly off the shelf and unmodified. I wonder how apple would react to this when it becomes wide spread?
post #75 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by archer75 View Post

They are talking about the modified OS they are selling. Not modified updates. A modified OS. It would have to, and does, include a EFI emulator.

The 16-page document, filed in U.S. District Court in San Francisco, states that, in April of this year, Psystar began selling a computer called OpenMac (later renamed Open Computer), which apparently runs a modified unauthorized version of the Leopard operating system. It further alleges that, in June, Psystar began selling rack-mount servers called the OpenServ 100 and Open Serv 2400 - products that again run Leopard.

Though there are now EFI motherboards and even a USB EFI device that allows you to install OSX directly off the shelf and unmodified. I wonder how apple would react to this when it becomes wide spread?

Ok. I think I'm pretty solid on the details now. I think you were right in that the part about the modified code being the updates and what caused the delay in action was in fact unfounded speculation by one of the journalist. The problem is, there is a lot of conflicting information about whether or not Psystar made any alterations to any of the updates delivered via their website, aside from the custom updates of their own that they distributed through Software Update. I guess that's why its still in litigation.
post #76 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwarf420 View Post

Ok. I think I'm pretty solid on the details now. I think you were right in that the part about the modified code being the updates and what caused the delay in action was in fact unfounded speculation by one of the journalist. The problem is, there is a lot of conflicting information about whether or not Psystar made any alterations to any of the updates delivered via their website, aside from the custom updates of their own that they distributed through Software Update. I guess that's why its still in litigation.

Yes, there is alot of conflicting information. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.
post #77 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by zmonster View Post

Why doesn't Apple just sanction use of OSX on non-Mac computers, and charge $999/copy for it.

THEN, these rip-off artists will be forced to pay Apple $999 for every computer they ship, and Apple will make a TON of money, avoid the lawsuits, and everybody is happy. Done.

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post #78 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwik View Post

Apple is still in a weak position with regards to these clone makers.

If Apple does not want people using their personal freedom to deploy their Mac OS X on machines they see fit, the Apple should not sell the product. No one is forcing them to sell Mac OS X to consumers. It is a high bar for Apple to jump to actually close down another private business. This is a form of violence (say, a police shutdown) that the government is generally extremely reluctant to do.

The government only shuts you down if it has crystal clear, very good reasons. Here, those reasons are not available. Apple has to prove it is wildly different than Microsoft's ubiquitous "open hardware" model. Apple has proved nothing of the sort.

And I am a stockholder so I do hope Apple makes lots of money!

What the hell are you talking about?? You have absolutely no clue how copyrights work, especially as they relate to the DMCA. Have you even bothered to follow the case between Psystar and Apple? Or are you just talking in wild assumptions and abstractions?

The question isn't just whether consumers are hacking OS X or using osx86 hacks, but whether those individuals are profiting from it financially - i.e., selling those semi-functional rigs, a la Psystar.

The courts already threw out Psystar's case. It's now up to Psystar to defend themselves against Apple's charges. Apple's motion to dismiss Psystar's counterclaims was granted. This means the counterclaims are gone, and with them any motivation to settle on Apple's side. The judge also dismissed the remainder of Psystar's stated claims for a lack of sufficient evidence to back them up, including allegations that Apple is violating the common law of unfair competition, the Cartwright Act, and the California Business and Professions Code.

Since then, Apple added new charges, claiming that Psystar Corp. broke antipiracy defenses that lock Apple's operating system to its own hardware, and that Psystar violated the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) by dodging copy-protection technologies Apple uses to protect Mac OS X. What's more, is that Apple has also alleged that there are corporations and/or individuals behind Psystar, who may be added as defendants once Apple in discovery finds out who they are. This might help to explain why a major law firm would take on what seems like a fly-by-night's BS case; also why Psystar has been so bold in continuing to sell its products. Psystar's only hope now is that it is not guilty, because it might very well bring others down with it. Apple might pursue the major investors of Psystar individually or even the OSx86 hackers that unwillingly enabled the company's dubious business.

If anything, Apple's position is looking very, very good. As it always has been.

Get a clue.
post #79 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh View Post

Show me a Mac where I can add a second internal hard drive for under 2,799.

And, yes, these computers look horrible. But I really don't care when it's hiding under my desk.

The single processor Mac Pro, without any discounts (corporate/student/etc), is $2299. Still high, but that's $500 less than your figure.
post #80 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Not to drag this out, but this word choice also implies a direct effect of Psystar on this company's decision making.. If someone at this new company stated, "We saw what Psystar did and we thought this looked like a great time to move into a new market", then you have proof that supports the claim. The article could have stated that "unnamed sources within the company have said...".

Without a source, this is a connection being made in the mind of the author. It's not rocket science.

Well you did drag it out and it is your own overzealous restriction on what the word 'spawns' means that is causing your consternation. If you keep that up the entire English language concepts of metaphor and simile come crashing down in a heap of uselessness.
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