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The Generational Blind Spot-BOOM! - Page 7

post #241 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Hell ya! I am quotable!

Here is one more for ya Frank.

I don't hate the Boomers because they are old. I am pointing out their ACTIONS which are narcissistic to the point of engaging in nihilism.

There isn't a way to save them. If the kids and grandkids are lucky, they might be able to save themselves via inflation.

Funny anecdote, my brother has a renter and the guy just up and left breaking a lease. My brother was smart and because of the guy's credit, got a double security deposit up front from him. Here is where the fun begins, my brother will do everything he is legally responsible to do with regard to prep and mitigating damages, but the mentality of the renter is that he didn't pay because he needed the money for a security deposit on his new place and of course expects back almost the full deposit pretty much immediately.

The guy feels fully justified I'm sure, but reality will suck for him. Likely, half the deposit is gone immediately to pay for mitigating the loss of rent without notification and apartment prep. However the guy is operating with the assumption that regardless of his actions, he should be getting around 95% of it back. It is a grand delusion.

As for the Boomers, "saving" for retirement but taking it back out to spend while issuing an IOU isn't saving for retirement, trying to watch your house appreciate while not saving, isn't saving for retirement and creating a government obligation that the kids and grandkids must somehow fund isn't saving for retirement.

As a generation they simply haven't saved anything for retirement and now of course cannot beat the clock.

Please address this Frank instead of just ignoring it while calling it hateful to bring it up. Avoid the generational blindspot and believe that just for a second, that the fact that you can find a perceived social injustice won't make the numbers change.

Quote:
I am pointing out their ACTIONS which are narcissistic to the point of engaging in nihilism

You might want to look in the mirror when you say that because there's some on this board that have a huge, undeservable, big fucking ego!

Being full of one's self doesn't really help you win a debate.

Quote:
I don't hate the Boomers because they are old.

But this sounds like you do hate them. Right?

Quote:
Funny anecdote, my brother has a renter and the guy just up and left breaking a lease. My brother was smart and because of the guy's credit, got a double security deposit up front from him. Here is where the fun begins, my brother will do everything he is legally responsible to do with regard to prep and mitigating damages, but the mentality of the renter is that he didn't pay because he needed the money for a security deposit on his new place and of course expects back almost the full deposit pretty much immediately.

The guy feels fully justified I'm sure, but reality will suck for him. Likely, half the deposit is gone immediately to pay for mitigating the loss of rent without notification and apartment prep. However the guy is operating with the assumption that regardless of his actions, he should be getting around 95% of it back. It is a grand delusion.

As a landlord myself I've found that even a great deal of checking into the background doesn't mean you know everything about the tenant. Most of the people I've rented to have been in your age bracket. As I did when I was that age. A lot of them seem to think of the landlord as the enemy. That justifys shorting him on rent or damaging the property because he's the adversery. It's a good rationalization from someone who's never been old enough to be on the other side. And I don't know how the laws are where you live but most here in Oregon protect the tenant.

However this youth thing would be a stereotype. I now have a young lady in her 30's who is an excellent tenant with good values, wants to keep up the place, and sees me as a partner to help where she lives and not the bad guy.

The one before her was about the same age and cost $3000.00 worth of damage to the house. And left with the keys and some of her stuff still in the house. She paid rent on time for the most part but changed toward the end after she got tight with her new boyfriend. You never know. I could have taken it to court but with Oregon law it would have been more time consuming and expensive than it was worth.

So you see it's always a mistake to talk in generalities and stereotypes when talking about people. Or generations.

By the way I know lots of people my age who saved for their retirement. Some where I work are moaning because of our annuity which rides the stock market and lost so much recently. It will go back up as things improve but won't be what it was. It's less to depend on that's why most are rethinking retirement. Not because they didn't save. It's estimated you'll need a million dollars in savings by the time we are of traditional retirement age in my group to equal an income of $40,000 a year in today's dollars. That's a lot of dead presidents.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #242 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Hell ya! I am quotable!

Here is one more for ya Frank.

I don't hate the Boomers because they are old. I am pointing out their ACTIONS which are narcissistic to the point of engaging in nihilism.

There isn't a way to save them. If the kids and grandkids are lucky, they might be able to save themselves via inflation.

Funny anecdote, my brother has a renter and the guy just up and left breaking a lease. My brother was smart and because of the guy's credit, got a double security deposit up front from him. Here is where the fun begins, my brother will do everything he is legally responsible to do with regard to prep and mitigating damages, but the mentality of the renter is that he didn't pay because he needed the money for a security deposit on his new place and of course expects back almost the full deposit pretty much immediately.

The guy feels fully justified I'm sure, but reality will suck for him. Likely, half the deposit is gone immediately to pay for mitigating the loss of rent without notification and apartment prep. However the guy is operating with the assumption that regardless of his actions, he should be getting around 95% of it back. It is a grand delusion.

As for the Boomers, "saving" for retirement but taking it back out to spend while issuing an IOU isn't saving for retirement, trying to watch your house appreciate while not saving, isn't saving for retirement and creating a government obligation that the kids and grandkids must somehow fund isn't saving for retirement.

As a generation they simply haven't saved anything for retirement and now of course cannot beat the clock.

Please address this Frank instead of just ignoring it while calling it hateful to bring it up. Avoid the generational blindspot and believe that just for a second, that the fact that you can find a perceived social injustice won't make the numbers change.

Actually the question I asked can not be answered by the very source of those quotations.

The bias in answering a question about oneself is implicit.

Others can read those quotes and come to their own conclusions.

I have come to mine.

That is all.
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #243 of 452

Crazy, angry people often have to single out and stereotype one group as the cause for all that's wrong with the world. For some it's the Jews, the african american, the hispanic, the asian. With some apparently it's the older generation. Now I can't say that we didn't have some of the same attitude. " Don't trust anyone over 30 ". However most of that immature attitude went away by the time we hit our 30's.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #244 of 452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Crazy, angry people often have to single out and stereotype one group as the cause for all that's wrong with the world. For some it's the Jews, the african american, the hispanic, the asian. With some apparently it's the older generation. Now I can't say that we didn't have some of the same attitude. " Don't trust anyone over 30 ". However most of that immature attitude went away by the time we hit our 30's.

Old age, it's the new Hitler.

Old age, it's the new Klan.

Old age, it's the new Japanese Internment Camp.

I made some bumper sticker slogans for ya to match the reasoning.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #245 of 452
You know this last one made up my mind. I've been thinking of leaving for awhile ( maybe for good ) since this has become
" The trumptman show " and every thread is about him it's just not as interesting here as it used to be. It's almost like he wanted to come back and destroy PO for the result of the last election. How's that for your conspiracy theory?

I've noticed a lot of people who used to come here have limited their posting due to this and the fact that well Bush is gone now. We're leaving Iraq. And it's a new ball game. Maybe time to move on. The things we were so passionate about are part of ( or soon to be part of ) history.

I have to say that I've been really impressed by our new president. I'm sure he won't do everything I'd want but who does?

Anyway I used to come here because I thought it in a way helped keep my mind sharp and introduced me to new ideas. Replying just to certain parties here over and over again can be just a monumental waste of time. Besides the GOP is really paying the price for Bush now and we have a really top notch replacement.

I may be back sometime. I'm sure some will say " Yea! " for this. Go right ahead.

jimmac
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #246 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

I'm just wondering if the above, in any way, shape, or form qualifies as ageism or hate speech, either, neither, or both?

Your thoughts?

Note: There's way more of the same where these excerpts came from. This is just a relatively small sample.

Oh get over yourself. Saying boomer sucks isn't ageism or hate speech...the very comment is so amusing because it plays right into that narcissistic stereotype...it's not even about you...it's about a generational cohort that you belong to.
post #247 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

You know this last one made up my mind. I've been thinking of leaving for awhile ( maybe for good ) since this has become
" The trumptman show " and every thread is about him it's just not as interesting here as it used to be. It's almost like he wanted to come back and destroy PO for the result of the last election. How's that for your conspiracy theory?

I've noticed a lot of people who used to come here have limited their posting due to this and the fact that well Bush is gone now. We're leaving Iraq. And it's a new ball game. Maybe time to move on. The things we were so passionate about are part of ( or soon to be part of ) history.

I have to say that I've been really impressed by our new president. I'm sure he won't do everything I'd want but who does?

Anyway I used to come here because I thought it in a way helped keep my mind sharp and introduced me to new ideas. Replying just to certain parties here over and over again can be just a monumental waste of time. Besides the GOP is really paying the price for Bush now and we have a really top notch replacement.

I may be back sometime. I'm sure some will say " Yea! " for this. Go right ahead.

jimmac

PO has always been a freakshow to me. I've never thought of PO as thought provoking outside of the numerous sardonic compositions I have put forth.

I could never take it seriously, given the rigid lid ideologies espoused by a certain small fraction of posters here. One on the far left and several on the far right.

PO is a boneyard now.

It's like an extinction event occurred.

No Artman, no midwinter, no addabox, ..., nobody.

The Vanishing, Part Deux!

The key thing to understand about PO is avoidance of the explicit baiting and trolling espoused by the few, and by now, the very few.

It's mean spirited and disingenuous and does not pretend to provoke serious discussions.

Adiós.
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #248 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Oh get over yourself. Saying boomer sucks isn't ageism or hate speech...the very comment is so amusing because it plays right into that narcissistic stereotype...it's not even about you...it's about a generational cohort that you belong to.

Bullshit! Boomer sucks? Hell, maybe they do, but the language I quoted was much, mush, very much stronger than just "boomer sucks'"

The quotes I posted are verbatim, you either find them offensive or you don't.

You don't. Go figure.

I don't condone hate speech or ageism, both of which were espoused explicitly in all those posts and hundreds more just like them.

So basically, you should get over your own self.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #249 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

I am not one of those Boomers. I have never been one of those Boomers. I will never be one of those Boomers.

I am not special. I have never been special. I will never be special.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Franksargent does have a point. We're individuals not stereotypes which is what trumptman has been dealing in.

As a cohort it isn't about individuals now is it?

Quote:
I could use just as many stereotypes about his generation like lazy, spoiled, insecure little whinners but you know that would be doing the same thing. And I could care less what the you guys think of me. If you want to lump yourself in with that group by all means.

Yep, except if you look at the articles, mostly they say that Gen X turned out better than Boomers gave them credit for when they called them slackers. Citing them as entrepreneurs working 80 hour weeks and that their rather gloomy outlook on life is more in line with their depression surviving grandparents than their me generation parents.

Gen Y is a less angst ridden, improvement over Gen X.

Unfortunately, even recent articles about boomers are not so flattering. I guess you guys are hoping that history will be as kind to you as they will to George W. Bush.

What's really amusing about all this is that Nick hates our Gen X (okay, tail end of the late boomer cohort) president that has a similar opinion about boomers that you guys revere.

Quote:
Do you mean the same marketing that now focuses on the ever younger? Putting actors on TV shows in roles that seem stupid and rediculous for their young age?

I laugh everytime the SciFi channel puts young women in their 20s in roles as a accomplished scientist that has had a career that would take decades!

As a judge in science fairs I can say I've met a large number of young ladies in high school that appear smarter than you. Than me even. Every year I go "damn, even at Westinghouse, we never had projects like this". Things that could be credible poster sessions at major scientific conferences and no one would bat an eye at the level of work. From seniors in High School.

Lemme think:

Einstein...theory of relativity at age 26.
Nash...Nash equilibrium at age 22.

Many nobel winners get their nobels in their 50s and 60s for work they did in their 20s and 30s.

If there is any ageism (and sexism) going on, I believe that you're the one doing it. I would hope that we tend to recognize the brilliance of our scientists at an earlier age than before. Even the female ones.

Quote:
But I don't blame them. Youth has it's milage and the actors appeal to what is gradually becoming the main purchasing demographic. They did the same thing when I was young although not to such rediculous lengths.

Ah, well...that might because Gen Y is some 95M strong. Awww...poor boomers...a tad bitter about not being center stage anymore that you need to decry having young scientists on the sciffy channel?

You guys are still the most important marketing demographic. GenY doesn't have the purchasing power you have yet.

Quote:
Yes but as has been stated we're talking about much more than just SS. I guess you don't read too closely.

I do read them. While you guys suck at multiple levels but I was being moderately polite to only point out the ones where there wasn't much controversy. Even if you couldn't admit to even them.

Quote:
I did give you a little more credence since you do seem to realize what Bush has done to this country judging by some of your posts.

Bush was the quintessential boomer in many opinions. I have certainly said he was not his father since the little punk appeared on the national stage.

I desire neither your creedence nor your clearwater.

Quote:
But the others you named I could care less. The New Red Minority?

You don't know who Paul Begala is do you. Nor bothered to read his rant on boomers...which even if you disagree was rather an amusing read.

Quote:
I hate to break it to you but most on this board laugh at those guys on a regular basis. Mainly because they make such rediculous claims.

Sokay. As a moderate republican we take arrows from both direction but we get to fling them at both directions too. I know the reputation of pretty much everyone on this board but you said those views were shared only by them.

Well, also me to some degree. And a former Clinton aide to a much greater degree. And to some degree, POTUS. And to varying degrees an assload of folks you can easily google by simply typing in "America's worst generation".

Sorry to say that it's very similar to the kind of result you get for googling "America's worst president".

Perhaps that should tell you something?
post #250 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

You know this last one made up my mind. I've been thinking of leaving for awhile ( maybe for good )...

I may be back sometime. I'm sure some will say " Yea! " for this. Go right ahead.

jimmac

Yah, okay. Buh bye. Gotta love folks that claim "I'm leaving because you all suck" only to reappear later.

Bonus points for deleting your account only to get it recreated.
post #251 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Bullshit! Boomer sucks? Hell, maybe they do, but the language I quoted was much, mush, very much stronger than just "boomer sucks'"

The quotes I posted are verbatim, you either find them offensive or you don't.

You don't. Go figure.

I don't condone hate speech or ageism, both of which were espoused explicitly in all those posts and hundreds more just like them.

So basically, you should get over your own self.

He's blaming you for all the crappy things thought up and implemented by the "boomer elite".

Do I find it offensive? Meh. My kids and probably I will have to pay for a lot of that crap since I'm a long way off from retirement.

He's right about one thing...and plenty gleeful about it too. The big ole shitpile has landed a tad early and the boomers are going to be looking at some mighty meager retirement funds for the next decade or so.

You may be offended by the glee but frankly, that the boomers have to clean up some of the mess they made doesn't make me sad at all either.
post #252 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Yah, okay. Buh bye. Gotta love folks that claim "I'm leaving because you all suck" only to reappear later.

Bonus points for deleting your account only to get it recreated.

One person in PO has done this AFAIK.

Guess who?

Truly ironic given the nature of this thread and who started said thread.
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post #253 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

One person in PO has done this AFAIK.

Guess who?

Truly ironic given the nature of this thread.

Well, I'm pretty sure I'm not on his christmas card list either.

i thought there were a couple folks that took their ball home with them?
post #254 of 452
Slackoffs

Quote:
For some of this generation, Generation X thinking has significant overtones of cynicism against things held dear to the previous generations, mainly the Baby Boomers.

Quote:
Since today's young adults were born during a period when the U.S. birthrate decreased to half the level of its postwar peak, in the wake of the great baby boom, they are sometimes called the baby busters. By whatever name, so far they are an unsung generation, hardly recognized as a social force or even noticed much at all...By and large, the 18-to-29 group scornfully rejects the habits and values of the baby boomers, viewing that group as self-centered, fickle and impractical. While the baby boomers had a placid childhood in the 1950s, which helped inspire them to start their revolution, today's twenty-something generation grew up in a time of drugs, divorce and economic strain.

Quote:
Relations among the generations seem to be at a low point. Gen Y (defined as people born after 1982) thinks Gen X (spawned between 1961 and 1981) is a bunch of whiners. Gen X sees Gen Y as arrogant and entitled. And everyone thinks the Baby Boomers (1943 to 1960) are self-absorbed workaholics.

Workaholics for sure, what all came afterwards were all just slackoffs.

Quote:
Gravett says their research showed that 68 percent of Baby Boomers feel “younger people” do not have as strong a work ethic as they do and that makes doing their own work harder. Thirty-two percent of Gen X-ers believe the “younger generation” lacks a good work ethic and that this is a problem. And 13 percent of Gen Y-ers say the difference in work ethics across the generations causes friction. They believe they have a good work ethic for which they’re not given credit.

Exactly.

Quote:
Of course, it’s important to remember that generalizations about the generations are just that. Age defines a demographic, not a person. We are, after all, talking about millions of individuals here, each with his or her own unique set of work and life experiences.

“You have to pay attention to individual personalities,” says Cummuta. “Knowing the individual is far more important than thinking about what generation they belong to.”

Exactly.
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post #255 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Well, I'm pretty sure I'm not on his christmas card list either.

i thought there were a couple folks that took their ball home with them?

Several people had their posts deleted.

I didn't know that one could restore said posts at a later date.

That this became apparent occured when one poster had their posts/account restored, after the elecction.

This poster vanished during the runup to the election for approximately onr month.

If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the PO kitchen, right at the time you would be subjected to the most verbal bantering.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #256 of 452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Oh get over yourself. Saying boomer sucks isn't ageism or hate speech...the very comment is so amusing because it plays right into that narcissistic stereotype...it's not even about you...it's about a generational cohort that you belong to.

Exactly!

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Yah, okay. Buh bye. Gotta love folks that claim "I'm leaving because you all suck" only to reappear later.

Bonus points for deleting your account only to get it recreated.

Actually (off-topic) I never said I was going, I just disappeared for a bit and people had to figure it out. Think of it as another thought experiment!

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

He's blaming you for all the crappy things thought up and implemented by the "boomer elite".

Do I find it offensive? Meh. My kids and probably I will have to pay for a lot of that crap since I'm a long way off from retirement.

He's right about one thing...and plenty gleeful about it too. The big ole shitpile has landed a tad early and the boomers are going to be looking at some mighty meager retirement funds for the next decade or so.

You may be offended by the glee but frankly, that the boomers have to clean up some of the mess they made doesn't make me sad at all either.

Dude's hitting homeruns tonight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

One person in PO has done this AFAIK.

Guess who?

Truly ironic given the nature of this thread and who started said thread.

As you say, take the heat or get out of the kitchen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Well, I'm pretty sure I'm not on his christmas card list either.

i thought there were a couple folks that took their ball home with them?

I have a Christmas card list? ShawnJ took off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Slackoffs

Workaholics for sure, what all came afterwards were all just slackoffs.

Exactly.

Exactly.

1990 and Douglas Coupland called and want their article and conclusions back. I've never heard Obama lumped with Gen X. I've always read that he was part of the late Boomers (or Jones as Artman and a few others noted) However even with all that, take him as an example. Obama was still in law school in until 1991. For someone to step forward and declare him useless in 1990-1991 because, well because he is still in school is just crap. I was still an undergrad in 1990. Am I supposed to be a slacker when I'm 20 and haven't taken over the planet yet? Typical Boomer Bullshit. What were Boomers doing in their teens and early twenties? Tuning in, out and on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Several people had their posts deleted.

I didn't know that one could restore said posts at a later date.

That this became apparent occured when one poster had their posts/account restored, after the elecction.

This poster vanished during the runup to the election for approximately onr month.

If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the PO kitchen, right at the time you would be subjected to the most verbal bantering.

Perhaps we should do a search on the predictions of some person that said that poster would spam the boards into oblivion as part of some strange delusion that it would influence the election. I guess that person was really, profoundly wrong though.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #257 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I've never heard Obama lumped with Gen X. I've always read that he was part of the late Boomers (or Jones as Artman and a few others noted)

Obama is a boomer, genX started in 1965, he was born in 1961.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
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post #258 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Obama is a boomer, genX started in 1965, he was born in 1961.

Most sociologists use smaller age brackets, don't ask me why. The generations are usually broken down into 10-15 year age brackets.

The Census Bureau uses 1946-1964 based off of the birth rate climb that occurred in 1946 and fell below that same rate in 1964 (my start/stop years may be off slightly).

I think wikipedia has the birth rate curve, I'll post it if I find it.

EDIT - See below.

From the CDC;

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr51/nvsr51_12.pdf

1945 BR = 20.4/1000, FR = 85.9/1000
1946 BR = 24.1/1000, FR = 101.9/1000

1964 BR = 21.1/1000, FR = 104.7/1000
1965 BR = 19.4/1000, FR = 96.3/1000

All interceding years were higher.

This is an objective definition, I have no issue with this definition, since the starting point is rather obvious (the year following WWII).
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post #259 of 452
Thread Starter 
So we are all in agreement that Obama is a boomer then. YIPPEE!

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #260 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

So we are all in agreement that Obama is a boomer then. YIPPEE!

I have always used the above definition, you would have to argue with sociologists who make up their generation divisions based on cultural or social changes.

But I don't think you will ever find universal agreement between sociologists because it isn't considered a hard science.

Just like economics isn't a hard science.

Palin would also be considered a Baby Boomer.
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post #261 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

So we are all in agreement that Obama is a boomer then. YIPPEE!

So Obama must suck then. God damn him and his whole generation for not paying enough taxes and wrecking our social safety net!
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
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post #262 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

So Obama must suck then. God damn him and his whole generation for not paying enough taxes and wrecking my social safety net!

tftfy
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post #263 of 452
All I know is ecological fallacies rule. Yee-hah!
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post #264 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

tftfy

Well, yours could be ruined as well, if this recession ends up bad enough and the surplus gets inflated to nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

All I know is ecological fallacies rule. Yee-hah!

1. It was a joke
2. If it were not a joke, it would not have been a fallacy, since the tax rates were the same for all baby boomers, and those tax rates were not high enough to pay for the boomers collective money-sucking inhalation power.
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post #265 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

All I know is ecological fallacies rule. Yee-hah!

And therein lies the flawed premise of this entire thread.

Quote:
An ecological fallacy, often called an ecological inference fallacy, is an error in the interpretation of statistical data in an ecological study, whereby inferences about the nature of specific individuals are based solely upon aggregate statistics collected for the group to which those individuals belong. This fallacy assumes that individual members of a group have the average characteristics of the group at large. Stereotypes are one form of ecological fallacy, which assumes that groups are homogeneous. For example, if a particular group of people are measured to have a lower average IQ than the general population, it is an error to assume that all members of that group have a lower IQ than the general population. For any given individual from that group, there is no way to know if that person has a lower than average IQ, average IQ, or above average IQ compared to the general population.

In fact, we are only shown anecdotal evidence outside the all too obvious nature of the aging demographics.

Something that has been known since the 1960's even.

This then gets turned into the Boomer Conspiracy Theory somehow.

I'd like to see actual objective data on net worth and saving habits and mortgage failure rates of the entire population, for example.

I'm old enough to remember when a savings account paid 5.25% per annum.

I'm old enough to remember a time before ATM's.

I'm old enough to remember a time when credit cards were a luxury not a requirement for a 12-year old (I'll throw in cell phones while I'm at it).

I'm old enough to remember when investing in the stock market was only for the very well off.

I'm old enough to remember when 401K's didn't exist.

I'm old enough to remember when CD's were actually worth investing in.

I'm old enough to remember when Savings Bonds were worth saving, were the norm, and not the exception.

I'm old enough to remember when after 9/11 Bush 43 told us all to go shopping.

I'm old enough to remember when Bush 43 told us all that homeownership was some kind of right, or some such.

So you see if the financial vehicles changed over time, it is only appropriate to include them and their effects in an objective analysis.

Since to say that people saved more in the past is rather meaningless unless the underlying savings mechanisms remained static over time.

Objectively, by any metric one wishes to choose, the underlying savings mechanisms did not remain static over time.

D'oh!

Otherwise, all we have to go on is some unknown individuals all too obvious biased conjectures.

The same is true for medical technologies, for example stating that the Boomers are in the worse physical health of any generation, negates the effects of improvements in medical technologies and diagnoses and availability of licit drugs.

Where is the time and technology invariant objective data and analyzes to prove this outrageous and biased conjecture?

When I went to grade school and high school and college I didn't see any fat kids. Does that prove anything? I happen to think it does. That the culture has changed, in many ways, over time.
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post #266 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Well, yours could be ruined as well, if this recession ends up bad enough and the surplus gets inflated to nothing.



1. It was a joke
2. If it were not a joke, it would not have been a fallacy, since the tax rates were the same for all baby boomers, and those tax rates were not high enough to pay for the boomers collective money-sucking inhalation power.

I know it was a joke, and I was just making a silly off-hand comment in furtherance. Sorry for any mis-communication.
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post #267 of 452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

I have always used the above definition, you would have to argue with sociologists who make up their generation divisions based on cultural or social changes.

But I don't think you will ever find universal agreement between sociologists because it isn't considered a hard science.

Just like economics isn't a hard science.

Palin would also be considered a Baby Boomer.

I understand they are both Boomers, that our last two presidents have been Boomers and our next couple are likely to be Boomers are well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

So Obama must suck then. God damn him and his whole generation for not paying enough taxes and wrecking our social safety net!

Obama doesn't have to suck at all. In fact it is clear the guy has a lot of talents. The thread is called the blind-spot for a reason. We all get limited by our own perspectives to some degree. For Boomers the blind-spot causes an action that won't be corrective.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #268 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Since the tax rates were the same for all baby boomers.

Took out your double negative and left your original statement.

The oldest Boomer would have entered the work force in 1962.

The youngest Boomer would have entered the work force in 1980.

Are you still willing to make the above statement, bcause if so, than you would be wrong, objectively speaking, of course.

Also, I'm still trying to grapple with the basic facts aboot you all's ability to see into the future with absolute certainty.

Please, will all you Nostradamus types get back to me with an actual timeline of future events.

It would help a whole lot in this discussion, you all know?
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post #269 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

We all get limited by our own perspectives to some degree. For Boomers the blind-spot causes an action that won't be corrective.

Hasty generalization and hypocritical and contradictory to boot.
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post #270 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I understand they are both Boomers, that our last two presidents have been Boomers and our next couple are likely to be Boomers are well.

And statistically speaking, there is a very high probability that their ages (not to be taken in the literal sense, if you understand that other people in this same age range would have run for said office regardless) would have been the same, regardless of said Baby Boom.

This is what is known as a classic non sequitur.

So, for example, the Baby Boom lasted 19 years, therefore, all things being equal, p ~ 0.5 that Baby Boomers would occupy said office for six terms (e. g. 24 years). Given the two term (maximum) nature of said office.

Also, we can say with some confidence now that someone born before 1946 will never again hold said office.

Therefore, p ~ 0.0 for t < 1946.

Also, the current office holder is in his 1st term. As has occured the last two times (this now gets us into joint probability statistical analyses).

Therefore, p > 0.5 that a Baby Boomer will hold said office for T = 24 years.

In 2016, the oldest Boomer will be 70 years old, and the youngest Boomer will be 52 years old. Now, of course, I need some demographic and statistical data on said office and the general population (or GP), to infer p ~ for all future office holders of said office.

D'oh!

Wow, look at this;

List of United States Presidents by age

Oct 1, 1924 to July 6, 1946 a gap of ~ 22 years.

Hmm, makes you think that this could happen again, with Generation X even.

Now who exactly is in said X'ers?
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post #271 of 452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
An ecological fallacy, often called an ecological inference fallacy, is an error in the interpretation of statistical data in an ecological study, whereby inferences about the nature of specific individuals are based solely upon aggregate statistics collected for the group to which those individuals belong. This fallacy assumes that individual members of a group have the average characteristics of the group at large. Stereotypes are one form of ecological fallacy, which assumes that groups are homogeneous. For example, if a particular group of people are measured to have a lower average IQ than the general population, it is an error to assume that all members of that group have a lower IQ than the general population. For any given individual from that group, there is no way to know if that person has a lower than average IQ, average IQ, or above average IQ compared to the general population.

People quoting logical fallacies really should learn to understand them before they claim them.

No one in this thread has been using group statistics to make individual claims.

Example:

The Boomers as a group have been statistically shown to be broke and will wander into retirement with little in the form of assets and will depend largely on wealth transfer programs to survive.

Barack Obama is a Boomer.

Thus Barack Obama is broke, has no assets, and will survive only on wealth transfer programs.

THAT, is an example of the fallacy you are quoting.

Group statistics can be used to determine information about a group. That is the proper use of said information and thus, not a fallacy.

Hope that helps you a bit.

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post #272 of 452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

And statistically speaking, there is a very high probability that their ages (not to be taken in the literal sense, if you understand that other people in this same age range would have run for said office regardless) would have been the same, regardless of said Baby Boom.

This is what is known as a classic non sequitur.

So, for example, the Baby Boom lasted 19 years, therefore, all things being equal, p ~ 0.5 that Baby Boomers would occupy said office for six terms (e. g. 24 years). Given the two term (maximum) nature of said office.

Also, we can say with some confidence now that someone born before 1946 will never again hold said office.

Therefore, p ~ 0.0 for t < 1946.

Also, the current office holder is in his 1st term. As has occured the last two times (this now gets us into joint probability statistical analyses).

Therefore, p > 0.5 that a Baby Boomer will hold said office for T = 24 years.

In 2016, the oldest Boomer will be 70 years old, and the youngest Boomer will be 52 years old. Now, of course, I need some demographic and statistical data on said office and the general population (or GP), to infer p ~ for all future office holders of said office.

D'oh!

Wow, look at this;

List of United States Presidents by age

Oct 1, 1924 to July 6, 1946 a gap of ~ 22 years.

Hmm, makes you think that this could happen again, with Generation X even.

Now who exactly is in said X'ers?

Is there a particular reason (perhaps the cap on the wite-out was left off) why you spend an entire post claiming a fallacy and pointing at the math that proves what I already said and that we are in agreement?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #273 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Is there a particular reason (perhaps the cap on the wite-out was left off) why you spend an entire post claiming a fallacy and pointing at the math that proves what I already said and that we are in agreement?

Get back to me when you think you understand what I posted. \
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post #274 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

People quoting logical fallacies really should learn to understand them before they claim them.

No one in this thread has been using group statistics to make individual claims.

Example:

The Boomers as a group have been statistically shown to be broke and will wander into retirement with little in the form of assets and will depend largely on wealth transfer programs to survive.

Barack Obama is a Boomer.

Thus Barack Obama is broke, has no assets, and will survive only on wealth transfer programs.

THAT, is an example of the fallacy you are quoting.

Group statistics can be used to determine information about a group. That is the proper use of said information and thus, not a fallacy.

Hope that helps you a bit.

This whole thread has been about making hasty generalizations and invoking said ecological fallacy.

This has been done in countless threads before.

This thread is apparently your idea of a joke.

Until you can present a complete demographic analysis, from all age groups, to support your specious claims of one demographic being the bone fide unique exception to the rule versus the rest, this discussion will forever be a big waste of everyone's time.
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post #275 of 452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Get back to me when you think you understand what I posted. \

Spamming a thread with a point doesn't make it true. The reality is that your claims do NOT match the definitions no matter how many times they are asserted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

This whole thread has been about making hasty generalizations and invoking said ecological fallacy.

This has been done in countless threads before.

This thread is apparently your idea of a joke.

Until you can present a complete demographic analysis, from all age groups, to support your specious claims of one demographic being the bone fide unique exception to the rule versus the rest, this discussion will forever be a big waste of everyone's time.

The joke is someone making claims while ignoring the very definitions that would determine the validity of those claims. I've provided plenty including noting books that have exactly the type of analysis you demand. You've provided...repetition and I'm sure you will again.... and again...and again. Don't claim to be open to information while you've got your PM's turned off. I've supported the claims. You've not rebutted anything.

However the biggest judge of this, reality, will prove who is true not your endless carping and denials in this thread. Screaming while misunderstanding a logical fallacy will not change the facts noted in the articles I linked about Boomers, their lack of assets, their blind reliance on social security and a government they have already bankrupted.

Enjoy the blind spot. Revel in it. Find a social justice, a claimed fallacy, declare it a hate crime so you can ignore reality. Keep buying that big lie buddy.

Do all those things and it isn't going to fill boomer pockets. That has been true their entire lives and it will be true when they are dust being scattered or put into a hole in the ground.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #276 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Spamming a thread with a point doesn't make it true. The reality is that your claims do NOT match the definitions no matter how many times they are asserted.



The joke is someone making claims while ignoring the very definitions that would determine the validity of those claims. I've provided plenty including noting books that have exactly the type of analysis you demand. You've provided...repetition and I'm sure you will again.... and again...and again. Don't claim to be open to information while you've got your PM's turned off. I've supported the claims. You've not rebutted anything.

However the biggest judge of this, reality, will prove who is true not your endless carping and denials in this thread. Screaming while misunderstanding a logical fallacy will not change the facts noted in the articles I linked about Boomers, their lack of assets, their blind reliance on social security and a government they have already bankrupted.

Enjoy the blind spot. Revel in it. Find a social justice, a claimed fallacy, declare it a hate crime so you can ignore reality. Keep buying that big lie buddy.

Do all those things and it isn't going to fill boomer pockets. That has been true their entire lives and it will be true when they are dust being scattered or put into a hole in the ground.

What does PM have to do with a public discussion in a public forum?

The data you cited is dated and incomplete.

The book(s) you cited were not peer reviewed, dated, and are also based on dated data.

You have yet to provide any information that isn't already known, housing values going down, stock market going down, mortgage defaults going up.

Present some actual facts for the entire population before you jump of the deep end with your spurious claims and specious conjectures.

We all already know all aboot SS and it's systemic demographic problems.

That is very old and frankly quite stale news.

A so called blind spot, isn't in fact a blind spot, if it has already been debated/discussed/dialogged/discoursed to death, for decades even.

The current financial crisis affects everyone, not just Boomers.

Get back to PO when you can convince and demonstrate to PO that the financial savings mechanisms have not changed over time.

Get back to PO when you can convince and demonstrate to PO that the medical technologies have not changed over time.

You have utterly failed to demonstrate that the two statements directly above are factually correct, when both are obviously not true.
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post #277 of 452
Thread Starter 
Thanks for proving my point for me or more specifically, thanks for BEING the point.


"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #278 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Thanks for proving my point for me or more specifically, thanks for BEING the point.



Meh, I find your rhetoric old, boring, and stale. Looking around PO and noticing who is no longer here (these last few weeks), more or less, bares this point out.

Since you can't answer, are unable to answer, won't answer forthrightly, I'll just assume I'm right about this thread being about those who are not yours.

Adiós.
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post #279 of 452
Thread Starter 
Bye bye, thanks for commenting on the poster! Sorry that the definition of forthrightly doesn't happen to mean what you think it does. Hope you enjoy dismissing a half dozen sources, hell, entire books, as "unable to answer" becase you don't like them. Thanks for calling my 2006 book old while citing your 1990 weekly periodical lamentation as a rebuttal.

Here are all my unable to answers cited in this thread.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...864419,00.html
http://ridingtheelephant.blogs.fortu...rtgage_summit/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/1..._n_149270.html
http://www.minyanville.com/articles/.../index/a/19789
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123033898448336541.html
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...Dqq8QD95II74O0
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123137375313762735.html
http://townhall.com/columnists/Miche...&comments=true
http://www.cepr.net/documents/public...th-2009-02.pdf
http://www.amazon.com/Coming-Generat.../dp/0262112868
http://people.bu.edu/kotlikoff/

BTW, if this place is a boneyard, it is because of the guys who spam the threads with "arguments" like those that "Here's a guy barfing picture", "Here's a picture of Prince", "I think you are this is a hate crime because this reminds me of Logan's Run.", "I don't like your sources, your books, your links, your information, your conclusion and thus you are wrong times 50, and "gee this place just sucks now that the mods won't let us spam the place with great rebuttals like 'damn are you a lying fucktard who should die.' "

Adios? I should be so lucky.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #280 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

bye bye, thanks for commenting on the poster! Sorry that the definition of forthrightly doesn't happen to mean what you think it does. Hope you enjoy dismissing a half dozen sources, hell, entire books, as "unable to answer" becase you don't like them. Thanks for calling my 2006 book old while citing your 1990 weekly periodical lamentation as a rebuttal.

Here are all my unable to answers cited in this thread.

hate speech

btw, if this place is a boneyard, it is because of the guys who spam the threads with "arguments" like those that "here's a guy barfing picture", "here's a picture of prince", "i think you are this is a hate crime because this reminds me of logan's run.", "i don't like your sources, your books, your links, your information, your conclusion and thus you are wrong times 50, and "gee this place just sucks now that the mods won't let us spam the place with great rebuttals like 'damn are you a lying fucktard who should die.' "

adios? I should be so lucky.

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