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The Generational Blind Spot-BOOM! - Page 11

post #401 of 452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

You act as if your initial assertion doesn't have to resolve conflicts that are presented.

That's not how it works. You make the assertion and support it as it's challenged, not the other way around. Since you alluded boomers are the root of all evil and that the deficit was somehow their responsibility, the graph shows your mistake - deficits increased when Gen X and subsequent generations failed to pull their weight.

Yes and there is a reason the thread is ten pages long. It contains loads of links supporting the contention.

Quote:
Boomers put together a budget and generations after that lacked the will to make the tough decisions, like reduce benefits for Social Security, Medicare and Medicade, to manage the budget.

NOW, since you assert that boomers are responsible, defend your assertion against the challenge or ... keep dancing.

The boomers are a boom for a reason. No other generation has the size to simply outvote them. Additionally you assign motives at 18 that aren't likely to be there on your graph. Someone who is 18 isn't too concerned about personal tax rates. Most of them hardly make enough to be taxed. You very own link notes that the generation after the boomers is much better educated, the best ever and thus wouldn't be strongly paying taxes until likely 23 or so.

Lastly, it isn't tax revenue that has gone down so much as spending that has kept going up and caused those problems. Who were the politicians who could make those decisions and cause those problems? Boomer politicians. They didn't capture the presidency until Clinton in 1992 but held lower offices before that and have held most offices since then because they are of that governing age. You assign the power at 18 and while one can vote, that isn't when a person is powerful. Look at the years of greatest earning and see who was generating the deficits then. That is where the truth lies because one doesn't lobby the government for tax cuts when they are making $7000 a year while going to college. They lobby them when they are making $200,000 a year at the height of their earning power. They vote in their peers who are of similar age and temperament to give them the breaks they all want and the spending they wall want. Boomers are at the zenith of their power now and we absolutely see the results. Trillion dollar deficits are the norm, not the exception for them. No generation is at the zenith of their power at 18 years old.

Also when looking at debt, this is merely government. We should be looking at personal where the boomers have taken on more debt than any other generation and are rolling into retirement with it. I'm not saying the generation that follows is any better in that regard but personal debt counts as well.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #402 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

blah blah blah.

You have to address the fact that subsequent generations refuse to address the discrepancies.

And you can't. Just as Obama owns the economy now, so does the present generation, and Obama isn't a boomer. IF they made the hard choices and stopped spending we wouldn't be having this discussion.
post #403 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Yes and there is a reason the thread is ten pages long. It contains loads of links supporting the contention.



The boomers are a boom for a reason. No other generation has the size to simply outvote them. Additionally you assign motives at 18 that aren't likely to be there on your graph. Someone who is 18 isn't too concerned about personal tax rates. Most of them hardly make enough to be taxed. You very own link notes that the generation after the boomers is much better educated, the best ever and thus wouldn't be strongly paying taxes until likely 23 or so.

Lastly, it isn't tax revenue that has gone down so much as spending that has kept going up and caused those problems. Who were the politicians who could make those decisions and cause those problems? Boomer politicians. They didn't capture the presidency until Clinton in 1992 but held lower offices before that and have held most offices since then because they are of that governing age. You assign the power at 18 and while one can vote, that isn't when a person is powerful. Look at the years of greatest earning and see who was generating the deficits then. That is where the truth lies because one doesn't lobby the government for tax cuts when they are making $7000 a year while going to college. They lobby them when they are making $200,000 a year at the height of their earning power. They vote in their peers who are of similar age and temperament to give them the breaks they all want and the spending they wall want. Boomers are at the zenith of their power now and we absolutely see the results. Trillion dollar deficits are the norm, not the exception for them. No generation is at the zenith of their power at 18 years old.

Also when looking at debt, this is merely government. We should be looking at personal where the boomers have taken on more debt than any other generation and are rolling into retirement with it. I'm not saying the generation that follows is any better in that regard but personal debt counts as well.

I'm sorry but the reason this thread is so long is because people can't believe you're saying this. It's an easy target. I'm sorry but to date I haven't seen much real support for your contention except for a few nut jobs.

Quote:
I'm not saying the generation that follows is any better in that regard but personal debt counts as well

So you admit that anybody with the same set of circumstances might end up with the same scenerio? Even Gen x if there had been more of them?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #404 of 452
trump, you have no idea of the influences a generation is responsible for.

Boomers, for instance, were responsible for cessation of hostilities in Vietnam. You claim an 18 year old has no power, yet collectively they changed US foreign policy. Boomers forced racial and gender discrimination to be seriously diminished. Etc, etc, etc.

You make it up and believe it, but you're wrong.

Each generation hands the keys to the city to the next.
post #405 of 452
Thread Starter 
BTW it is considered good manners to link to your articles. I went and found it and let's dig into it a little more....in the end you'll see it supports more of what I claim than what you do.

I went and found the PDF of it here.


The very next paragraph...

Quote:
Despite the economic power of boomers, many aging ones face the
prospect of shattered expectations. A generation that lived through unprece-
dented prosperity and has correspondingly high hopes for its golden
years must cope with significant financial, physical, and social challenges.
New McKinsey research reveals that 60 percent of boomers wont
be able to maintain a lifestyle close to their current one without continuing
to work, that 60 percent of older boomers already suffer from chronic
health problems, and that by 2015 there will be 21 million single 51- to
70-year-old boomersmore than twice as many single households as
the previous generation had at the same age.
Not surprising, 46 percent of
boomers fear ending up alone, and 43 percent already are frustrated
that they arent leading the lives they expected to.

Note the name of the thread... the boomer blindspot. Most Boomers have gone along doing what they have always done. Work hard, play hard, charge debt hard and often have their lives blow up every couple decades or so via divorces and other such things. They just roll up their sleeves and try to fix it all but Father Time is going to come calling for them this time. There isn't another decade to go buy and pay down the house the wife took this time. There isn't another 10 years left in those bodies to rebuild the retirement savings, refi the house and get it paid back down, or to ignore the problems any longer. Those numbers note the realize, 60% need to work and 60% already have chronic health problems. Those two are clearly on a collision course and it is deluded to believe otherwise.

They are richer than their parents, but their parents had to pay for wars and live through the Great Depression. Oh and they actually paid down those things, they didn't charge them and move on.

Quote:
Companies considering the boomer market must grapple with a powerful
dichotomy. On the one hand, this group has enjoyed more opportunities
than any other generation in US history: boomers were born during the
years (194664) of postWorld War II prosperity, attained high levels
of education, and benefited from the rapid growth of the economy and the
stock market, during the 1980s and 1990s, while building careers. On
the other, although boomers have enjoyed certain advantages, our research
indicates that many are anxious, frustrated, and more concerned about
their future than were the members of the previous generation.1

The article notes what I note. They had the world handed to them on a string and were growing their careers during the 80's and 90's, the exact time frame you note the deficits rising. I could vote for the first time in 1988. The oldest person in my generation was 22 at the time Reagan was elected for the second time. You hold US responsible for events that began when I was ten.

Yet the boomers weren't ten then. A lot of them were turning 30 and wanting those breaks and benefits now.

Quote:
One finding of our research was a segmentation (Exhibit 3) indicating that only about a quarter of the boomers are financially prepared for their twilight years. This
affluent segment is aging with confidence, and its wealth (average net
worth$1.2 million) exaggerates the financial well-being of the generation
as a whole.

This is where the breakdown happens and it shows very bad things. A quarter are well off, very well off and why shouldn't they be. Post war American was an incredible place to make money. The boomers lived through and helped create the computer revolution so obviously they made some money there. This 25% is doing great.

Quote:
At the other end of the spectrum, disadvantaged boomers (representing
another quarter of the generations population) have an average income of
only $15,000 a year and a net worth of $75,000. They are concerned and
even depressed as they look to the future. Society will have to wrestle with
this large groups financial and health needs in the years ahead.

This is the other end of the spectrum. These are the folks who have had their entire lives to get it together and never have. They are limping into retirement making nothing and having next to nothing and they are 25% of the largest generation EVER.

Then we have that broad middle, how are they doing?

Quote:
The rest of the boomers50 percent of the generations population,
controlling almost 25 percent of total US consumption by 2015envision a
comfortable three-quarters like that of the affluent but havent prepared for it. These unprepared boomers spend more than they earn and have an
average net worth of just 15 percent of their affluent counterparts. Yet our
attitudinal research indicates that nearly half of the unprepared boomers are
not aware of the difficult financial straits approaching and have attitudes
similar to those of the affluent segment: 55 percent are extremely excited
about their future prospects and 75 to 80 percent find it exciting to think
about the lifestyle changes they believe will be possible in retirement.

The numbers show that basically 75% of the boomers are broke and that 25% of them that very well off distort the numbers enough to make them look better.

Quote:
Boomers face issues extending beyond finances; for example, they
have a higher divorce rate than any other generation in US history. Our
analysis indicates that by 2015 unmarried boomers will account for
21 million households, or 46 percent of all boomer households. In 1995,
when the members of the silent generation were 51 to 70 years old, it
had just 10 million unmarried households, 39 percent of all households in
that generation. Whats more, 51- to 56-year-old boomers have higher
rates of chronic health, drinking, and psychiatric problems than did the
members of the previous generation at the same age.3

Broke, boozing and alone is the summary there and at rates higher than the previous generation.

The point here, is that boomers attitudes don't reflect what their bodies can do. They operate in almost a delusional state. They believe the clock will never run out on them. 60% of them have chronic health issues, but they plan to work until they are 80 years old to maintain their rate of consumption. How do those two statements jibe together and knowing what we know about 75% of them and the realities of aging, which is more likely to be true, that their bodies will break down and their divorce, debt, and health will finally take them down financially or that it will all magically work out and they will defy that ticking clock. Your link consists of two parts. One is the numbers that reflect the reality of boomers. The other is discussing how to work with them, how to market to them and what their own attitudes are about how things are going to work out for them. Those are the numbers that don't work out.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #406 of 452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

trump, you have no idea of the influences a generation is responsible for.

Boomers, for instance, were responsible for cessation of hostilities in Vietnam. You claim an 18 year old has no power, yet collectively they changed US foreign policy. Boomers forced racial and gender discrimination to be seriously diminished. Etc, etc, etc.

You make it up and believe it, but you're wrong.

Each generation hands the keys to the city to the next.

Boomers weren't 18 when Vietnam stopped. You help prove my point. They may have begun lobbying for it when they turned 18 in 1964 at the beginning of their generation. But they didn't have that full impact until the middle of their generation was 18 and the beginning of their generation was by then 29 aka almost 30.

Note the difference. You hold me responsible for electing someone when I was 10. Gen X started in 1966 according to your link. This puts the beginning of the generation at 14 years old in 1980. Even if you go back to 1965 it puts them at 15 years old. They couldn't even vote for Reagan in 1980.

By the same reasoning though, the middle and beginnings my generation would have been starting to exert power in 1992-1994 and we do know what happened during those years. Someone born in 1965 would have been 29 in 1994 and that is about the age they could really start contributing some major cash to elect candidates. The middle of the generation would have been 20 at that time and with half the generation of voting age could finally make a difference. What did we get during that timeframe and for the following years when the Gen X generation was cycling and coming of voting age? We got fiscal sanity.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #407 of 452
Your assertions are so much hot air. Boomers are better positioned for retirement than any generation, past or future.

http://www.bls.gov/opub/cwc/cm20050114ar01p1.htm

Your failure to support that assertion collapses the house of cards you're trying to build.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Boomers weren't 18 when Vietnam stopped. You help prove my point. They may have begun lobbying for it when they turned 18 in 1964 at the beginning of their generation. But they didn't have that full impact until the middle of their generation was 18 and the beginning of their generation was by then 29 aka almost 30.

That was the period of influence, 18 to 30. At that time, GenX took over. You proved my assertion.
post #408 of 452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Your assertions are so much hot air. Boomers are better positioned for retirement than any generation, past or future.

http://www.bls.gov/opub/cwc/cm20050114ar01p1.htm

Your failure to support that assertion collapses the house of cards you're trying to build.
That was the period of influence, 18 to 30. At that time, GenX took over. You proved my assertion.

Gen X was not 18 in 1980. My assetion was also that when half the generation was aged 18-30 was the time of peak influence. For Gen X which starts in 1965-1966 depending upon the source and ends in 1986 the peak year of youthful influence would have been 1992, not 1980.

Also what is with this throwing something out there with no explation or even quotation?!?

Quote:
Opinions vary about the economic well-being of the baby boomers and how they will fare in their retirement. Scott A. Bass, for example, argues that most baby boomers are healthier, better educated, and wealthier than previous generations.3 At the same time, however, in a national study of bankruptcy conducted in 1991, Teresa A. Sullivan and her coauthors showed that half of the individuals who filed for bankruptcy protection were baby boomers.4 In another study, Sophie M. Korczyk noted that 8 in 10 baby boomers expect to work, at least part time, after they "retire," but only a third expect to scale back their lifestyle during their retirement years.5 These conflicting observations motivated this comparison of the retirement savings behavior of baby boomers with that of other cohorts.

Your link also compares two halves of the Boomer generation against the latter two generations called X and Y. Is it any surprise that they would have more retirement savings as they are much older and closer to retirement than the other two groups?

This is like saying it is warmer during the day. I've got more retirement savings at 39 than I did at 30 and even more than I did at 20. That shouldn't be surprising. Also as your own link showed earlier, applying averages with such a large group can be a distortion. The 25% well off group alters the numbers for that 75% that is broke.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #409 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Gen X was not 18 in 1980. My assetion was also that when half the generation was aged 18-30 was the time of peak influence. For Gen X which starts in 1965-1966 depending upon the source and ends in 1986 the peak year of youthful influence would have been 1992, not 1980.

Also what is with this throwing something out there with no explation or even quotation?!?

You need a quote to know that boomers were the reason we got out of Vietnam? After that, they lose influence as GenX gains, and the graph shows the trend after the 60's, early 70's
Quote:
Your link also compares two halves of the Boomer generation against the latter two generations called X and Y. Is it any surprise that they would have more retirement savings as they are much older and closer to retirement than the other two groups?

This is like saying it is warmer during the day. I've got more retirement savings at 39 than I did at 30 and even more than I did at 20. That shouldn't be surprising. Also as your own link showed earlier, applying averages with such a large group can be a distortion. The 25% well off group alters the numbers for that 75% that is broke.

Your claim boomers are responsible for debt - I showed that boomer behavior showed more of a propensity for savings than latter generations.

You want to blame someone. I get it. Your failure is in making generalities that stats show aren't part of the behavior of the demographic you're holding responsible.

You're entire argument boils down to "It's boomers fault 'cause there are more of them".
post #410 of 452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

You need a quote to know that boomers were the reason we got out of Vietnam? After that, they lose influence as GenX gains, and the graph shows the trend after the 60's, early 70'sYour claim boomers are responsible for debt - I showed that boomer behavior showed more of a propensity for savings than latter generations. ".

First they didn't lose influence, they shared influence just as now the GenX shares influence with the generation of youth that helped elect Obama. The problem was you were assigning actions to GenX when they couldn't even vote yet.

Second you didn't show a greater propensity for saving. That was the conclusion you drew from the fact that they had more retirement savings when the reality is that they had lived longer and thus had saved more as a result of living longer. Your first link explained all of this for you and you want to ignore it. It said that a very successful 25% is altering the average of the other 75%.

Quote:
You want to blame someone. I get it. Your failure is in making generalities that stats show aren't part of the behavior of the demographic you're holding responsible.

You're entire argument boils down to "It's boomers fault 'cause there are more of them".

No it boils down to much more than that. The very links you have presented show the problem. 75% of boomers are broke. They have divorced more than any other generation in history and have the wealth destruction associated with that as well. They have believed they are above the rules and this is showing up in the very delusional manner of taking us from the world's greatest creditor to greatest debtor both as a government and themselves personally. The majority of them as noted from your own link believe they are going to keep up their current rate of consumption, which it also notes involves spending more than they make and they plan to do so by continuing to work into retirement even when 60% of them already have chronic health conditions before retirement age.

It speaks to a radically delusional state that they have carried with them their entire lives.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #411 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

You need a quote to know that boomers were the reason we got out of Vietnam? After that, they lose influence as GenX gains, and the graph shows the trend after the 60's, early 70's

The oldest genX person was 10 years old in 1975. How exactly did they have influence in the early 70s? I was 8 in 1975 - and I can tell you there was very little control over my parents (who were born in 1937 and 1941, not baby boomers btw).

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post #412 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

How exactly did they have influence in the early 70s?

The boomer influence peaks in the 60's and early 70's - that was the influence that changed US foreign policy. After that the boomer influence wanes and GenX waxes.
post #413 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

First they didn't lose influence, they shared influence just as now the GenX shares influence with the generation of youth that helped elect Obama. The problem was you were assigning actions to GenX when they couldn't even vote yet.

One generation transitions to another. It's the same with all transitions, you have to have demarcate the generations and 1980 is that date.
Quote:
Second you didn't show a greater propensity for saving. That was the conclusion you drew from the fact that they had more retirement savings when the reality is that they had lived longer and thus had saved more as a result of living longer. Your first link explained all of this for you and you want to ignore it. It said that a very successful 25% is altering the average of the other 75%.

you want links then you don't read them. Try again and read the "Implications" section.
Quote:
No it boils down to much more than that. The very links you have presented show the problem. 75% of boomers are broke. They have divorced more than any other generation in history and have the wealth destruction associated with that as well. They have believed they are above the rules and this is showing up in the very delusional manner of taking us from the world's greatest creditor to greatest debtor both as a government and themselves personally. The majority of them as noted from your own link believe they are going to keep up their current rate of consumption, which it also notes involves spending more than they make and they plan to do so by continuing to work into retirement even when 60% of them already have chronic health conditions before retirement age.

It speaks to a radically delusional state that they have carried with them their entire lives.

IF you would read the implications, you'd not have the disconnect you have. Of course, I can quote snippets of the studies too -
Quote:
Scott A. Bass, for example, argues that most baby boomers are healthier, better educated, and wealthier than previous generations.

BUT, lets stick with the analysis.

Quote:
This study compares the retirement savings behavior of four different age cohorts and finds that Older Baby Boomers (born from 1946 to 1954) are somewhat more likely than the other cohorts to hold a retirement account. It also finds that households in the Swing cohort (1928 to 1945) hold the largest amount of retirement savings, followed by, in order, households in the Older Boomers, Younger Boomers (1955 to 1964), and Generations X and Y (1965 to 1987) cohorts.
...
This study examined the retirement savings behavior of baby boomers compared with that of other age cohorts. It found that obtaining more education, being more willing to accept risk, and enhancing past savings behavior were among the factors that were most influential in having a larger amount saved for retirement.
...
The ANOVA results revealed that all of the cohorts differed significantly on the total amount in their retirement accounts. Households in the Swing cohort had the largest amount in retirement savings, but it was only $14,000 more, on average, than the amount of the Older Boomers’ retirement savings. Households in the Older Boomer cohort had twice as much in their retirement accounts, on average, as the Younger Boomers. Older Boomers had attained the highest level of education. Household income was highest for the Older Boomers and lowest for the Generation X and Y cohort. The amount of financial assets was highest for the Swing cohort and lowest for the Generation X and Y cohort. Nonfinancial assets were also highest for the Swing cohort and lowest for the Generation X and Y cohort.

You claims about boomers are as follows:
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

So now the bar is so low that we print away the debt for the debtors and crush the savers all in hopes of doing this all again, being able to say we are wealthy without generating any real wealth. I mean what else can you expect from them. They couldn't get the house refied for another 30 years now that they are 60 years old. They could slow down, spend less, try to save and work off their bad lifestyle of drinking, drugs, obesity, smoking and an overall worse state of health coming into retirement than the prior generation. They could finally grow up, pay their own way and stop making up new lies. Instead it is down to the ultimate lie. The currency itself will be manipulated to cover up their lifetime of nonsense.

You're trying to cover up for the fact your generation hasn't pulled it's own weight. Boomers made changes in the US, changes in foreign policy and changes in the social conscious. They have the highest level of education and the greatest household income.

Your generation?

Sounds like they whine a lot.
post #414 of 452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

One generation transitions to another. It's the same with all transitions, you have to have demarcate the generations and 1980 is that date. you want links then you don't read them. Try again and read the "Implications" section.
IF you would read the implications, you'd not have the disconnect you have. Of course, I can quote snippets of the studies too -

Really because I see (and previously read) this there.

The Younger Boomers and Generation X and Y had smaller amounts saved for retirement than the Older Boomers, but the Swing cohort had more saved than the Older Boomers. Hence, the life-cycle hypothesis that household savings tends to increase with age was supported.

Aka, you live longer, you save more. It's right there quoted for you to see.

Quote:
BUT, lets stick with the analysis.

I think I just showed I did that thanks.

Quote:
You claims about boomers are as follows:

Yes and your own link showed that was indeed the case for 75% of boomers with regard to savings and 60% of boomers with regard to health. Finally it showed it to be true for 60% of boomers with regard to attitude and expectations. Those were from your own links and I've provided my own earlier in the thread as well.

Quote:
You're trying to cover up for the fact your generation hasn't pulled it's own weight. Boomers made changes in the US, changes in foreign policy and changes in the social conscious. They have the highest level of education and the greatest household income.

Your generation?

Sounds like they whine a lot.

Your support for this is claiming that 15 year old to negative three year olds voted themselves some massive tax cuts and benefit increases starting in 1980. Clearly that isn't very persuasive reasoning for many folks out there as it defies an rational thinking.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #415 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Really because I see (and previously read) this there.

The Younger Boomers and Generation X and Y had smaller amounts saved for retirement than the Older Boomers, but the Swing cohort had more saved than the Older Boomers. Hence, the life-cycle hypothesis that household savings tends to increase with age was supported.

Aka, you live longer, you save more. It's right there quoted for you to see.

What part of the "It found that obtaining more education, being more willing to accept risk, and enhancing past savings behavior were among the factors that were most influential in having a larger amount saved for retirement." didn't you understand? That's got nothing to do with any how much is in the retirement account, it evaluates behavior. The rest of the article showed how boomers qualified in those categories.

Apparently your generation needs to back to school. And more of you need to start retirement accounts. THEN you can claim parity.
post #416 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

The boomer influence peaks in the 60's and early 70's - that was the influence that changed US foreign policy. After that the boomer influence wanes and GenX waxes.

The average Generation X person could not even vote until 1988 (oldest genX people started voting in 1984). Your post is nonsense, you didn't even try to answer me on how a 10 year old can have any kind of influence in 1975. Not only that, but voting participation is very low for people under 30 - year 2000 is the start of generation X being more in control.
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post #417 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

The average Generation X person could not even vote until 1988 (oldest genX people started voting in 1984). Your post is nonsense, you didn't even try to answer me on how a 10 year old can have any kind of influence in 1975.

I posted this earlier. You apparently use a different reference for GenX.

Quote:
Boomers came on the scene in 1946 and started becoming a dominant part of the workforce and voting demographic in 1964.

Generation X came on the scene in 1961 and started becoming a dominant part of the workforce and voting demographic in 1979 or so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_X
post #418 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

I posted this earlier. You apparently use a different reference for GenX.

Even if you move the peg back four years, you can't really be asserting that 18 year olds are a "dominant demographic" in 1979. For one thing, only a single year worth of people turned 18 in 1979. If you really believe that, try to figure it out using math.

Even with your date range, the average generation X person was 10 years old in 1979.

And if you look at the graph, moving the peg back from 1965 to 1961 makes no sense.
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post #419 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Even if you move the peg back four years, you can't really be asserting that 18 year olds are a "dominant demographic" in 1979. For one thing, only a single year worth of people turned 18 in 1979. If you really believe that, try to figure it out using math.

Even with your date range, the average generation X person was 10 years old in 1979.

And if you look at the graph, moving the peg back from 1965 to 1961 makes no sense.

A line has to be drawn somewhere, so I draw it in this discussion where I would draw the starting point for any other influence - where it begins. In this case, I would say the influence begins when a particular generation begins exerting influence, like I posted above. I would especially do so for the purposes of this discussion, for reasons I've outlined here -

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...&postcount=399

You are free to start drawing wherever you like.

Trump, though, always asserts that political influence starts at, for instance, the moment a candidate takes office. He considers any reference to previous administrations when someone tries to show some logical progression as "blame"...so, I'll adopt his methods during my discussion with him.
post #420 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

A line has to be drawn somewhere, so I draw it like I would draw the starting point for any other influence - where it begins. In this case, I would say the influence begins when a particular generation begins exerting influence, list I posted above. I would especially do so for the purposes of this discussion, for reasons I've outlined here -

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...&postcount=399

You are free to start drawing wherever you like.

Again, even using your date ranges, average age of a generation X person in 1979 was 10 years old. People generally don't vote very much until they are 30 - how exactly were generation X people "dominant in business and politics" before 1990?

With your date ranges, genX people start having influence in 1990. With my date ranges, they start in 1992. Still way different from 1979.
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post #421 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Again, even using your date ranges, average age of a generation X person in 1979 was 10 years old. People generally don't vote very much until they are 30 - how exactly were generation X people "dominant in business and politics" before 1990?

With your date ranges, genX people start having influence in 1990. With my date ranges, they start in 1992. Still way different from 1979.

Why are you hung up on averages? The first GenX was born in 1961 and voted 18 or so years later in 1979. They own the generational political landscape from that point to when GenY began voting, about 1994.

Are you going to claim a presidential term begins in the middle of a term too?
post #422 of 452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

What part of the "It found that obtaining more education, being more willing to accept risk, and enhancing past savings behavior were among the factors that were most influential in having a larger amount saved for retirement." didn't you understand? That's got nothing to do with any how much is in the retirement account, it evaluates behavior. The rest of the article showed how boomers qualified in those categories.

Apparently your generation needs to back to school. And more of you need to start retirement accounts. THEN you can claim parity.

Those were the traits within each generation that showed an increased likeliness to open retirement accounts. It was true across all generations. Your own link from Wikipedia noted Gen X has more education than the prior generation and was the best educated generation of all. That said there are certain things that can't be overcome until time winds it's course. That is precisely the point your link makes. All those traits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Why are you hung up on averages? The first GenX was born in 1961 and voted 18 or so years later in 1979. They own the generational political landscape from that point to when GenY began voting, about 1994.

Are you going to claim a presidential term begins in the middle of a term too?

A president is a single person. A generation is a group of people roughly defined as about 18 years. The middle of that group is 9-10 year in and that is when the earliest influence of that group would felt. You can have some small shifts before then sure. We gave you an example with the boomers. Certainly there were protests in the 60's about Vietnam, but holding a sign isn't the same thing as giving a donation or casting a vote. When boomers could do those things in large numbers is when the war ended. The front end of a generation might be large enough to raise awareness of that generation's issues, but it is the large average section where that generation begins to move from awareness to exerting power.

That said, no generation has been able to exert power above what the boomers want because they are larger than the generation before or after them.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #423 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Why are you hung up on averages? The first GenX was born in 1961 and voted 18 or so years later in 1979.

Wait a second. I thought that the commonly held range for the "Baby Boom" generation was 1946 - 1964 with "Generation X" beginning in 1965. Which already pushes your first Gen-Xer voting to 1983. And then it's only the first round (let's assume for a moment an even distribution of the 51 million gen-Xer births from 1965-1976) that has only about 5 million gen-xers coming online to vote in 1983. That assumes ALL of them were voting (an unlikely situation) against the ENTIRE 76 million strong baby boomer generation (who were all of voting age by that time).

And that 5 million might be high. Depending on who you read, the X gen was 64-84 and had only 46 million, bringing the average births per year closer to 2.5 million.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

They own the generational political landscape from that point

I have no idea what that statement means. It seems to mean that as soon as the first Gen Xers started voting they were in control of the political climate in this country. Surely you cannot be making such a naive claim.


The best argument you could make about Gen X having really influence over politics would be maybe 2000. But even that's questionable since you still have the 76 million or so boomers against the 46 million or so Xers and people, as a general rule, tend to vote more frequently and consistently as they get older to the younger Xers may still be lagging a bit, while the entire boomer generation is more likely to be in full force voting mode now and for a long time to come.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #424 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

That said, no generation has been able to exert power above what the boomers want because they are larger than the generation before or after them.

Like I said - you're entire argument boils down to "It's boomers fault 'cause there are more of them".
post #425 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Like I said - you're entire argument boils down to "It's boomers fault 'cause there are more of them".

Well when they have the political power by sheer numbers, that doesn't seem like a totally unreasonable claim.

Politicians buy votes. They buy them by pandering to the greatest number of people who actually do vote and promising what those voters want.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #426 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Wait a second. I thought that the commonly held range for the "Baby Boom" generation was 1946 - 1964 with "Generation X" beginning in 1965. Which already pushes your first Gen-Xer voting to 1983. And then it's only the first round (let's assume for a moment an even distribution of the 51 million gen-Xer births from 1965-1976) that has only about 5 million gen-xers coming online to vote in 1983. That assumes ALL of them were voting (an unlikely situation) against the ENTIRE 76 million strong baby boomer generation (who were all of voting age by that time).

And that 5 million might be high. Depending on who you read, the X gen was 64-84 and had only 46 million, bringing the average births per year closer to 2.5 million.

You can start counting at whatever point you want. Really. It's OK. I don't insist you start where I do.
Quote:
I have no idea what that statement means. It seems to mean that as soon as the first Gen Xers started voting they were in control of the political climate in this country. Surely you cannot be making such a naive claim.

I put the beginning of a series where it begins. I'm funny that way, possibly even naive. However, I think it's fairly common to do so.
Quote:
The best argument you could make about Gen X having really influence over politics would be maybe 2000.

I have a hard time identifying ANY period of time being under the political influence of GenX, since they seem to lack the collective will to make a difference and, if this thread is any indication, want to abdicate any responsibility at any time. However, I'll use the time line I found until a more authoritative one comes along.

Be that as it may, the Boomers started voting in 1964 and within 10 years caused a 180 degree change in foreign policy and had a great deal of influence on the social conscious of this nation. That tells me that their influence started earlier than the effect they had on the political landscape.

You can continue depreciating the contribution of GenX if you like, I sure won't argue with you.
post #427 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

You can start counting at whatever point you want. Really. It's OK. I don't insist you start where I do.I put the beginning of a series where it begins. I'm funny that way, possibly even naive. However, I think it's fairly common to do so.

What are you saying? Just come right out and say it. Gen-X doesn't start in 1965? There seems to be reasonable debate among scholars about this. I have always heard it beginning in 65 (and boomer being from 46 to 64). 61 is news to me.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #428 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

You can start counting at whatever point you want. Really. It's OK. I don't insist you start where I do.I put the beginning of a series where it begins. I'm funny that way, possibly even naive. However, I think it's fairly common to do so.

What is naive in your claim that gen X starts controlling the political landscape the first year the first ones start voting despite the numbers not really supporting such a claim as being reasonable.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #429 of 452
From "Census 2000 Ethnographic Study June 17, 2003"

http://www.census.gov/pred/www/rpts/...l%20Report.pdf

Quote:
GENERATION X SPEAKS OUT ON CIVIC ENGAGEMENT AND THE DECENNIAL CENSUS: AN ETHNOGRAPHIC APPROACH FINAL REPORT

This evaluation reports the results of research and analysis undertaken by the U.S. Census Bureau. It is part of a broad program, the Census 2000 Testing, Experimentation, and Evaluation (TXE) Program, designed to assess Census 2000 and to inform 2010 Census planning. Findings from the Census 2000 TXE Program reports are integrated into topic reports that provide context and background for broader interpretation of results.

Quote:
Civic engagement is an important explanatory factor in this Generation X Census study. It is being used to assess whether it is an indicator of Census survey participation. The basic argument in considering civic engagement for this purpose is that individuals who engage in civic engagement activities—such as voting, volunteering at soup kitchens and joining political advocacy groups—will most likely participate in Census surveys. For the purpose of this study, Generation X is defined as respondents born during the years 1968-1979. Various studies define Generation X differently by age, with some analyses categorizing persons born in 1961 as the cohorts oldest members, while others use a younger upper boundary to demarcate the age group (Craig and Earl Bennett 1997). Only in hindsight will the boundaries for this cohort become clearer.

An interesting addition to that study...

Quote:
According to media rhetoric, the majority of Generation X wants little to do with government, is selfish, lazy and shuns civic responsibilities and commitments. As a testament to these notions, GenXers have inherited several nicknames, among them, Slacker Generation and The Me Generation. Members of the age cohort Generation X are often derided by a stereotype that casts them as slackers (persons who lack ambition or drive) or as whiners (those who complain without reason). Popular literature along with a multitude of research studies conducted depict the children born to Baby Boomers (Generation Xers) as the most cynical and detached of current generations.

I laughed.
post #430 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Why are you hung up on averages? The first GenX was born in 1961 and voted 18 or so years later in 1979. They own the generational political landscape from that point to when GenY began voting, about 1994.

Are you going to claim a presidential term begins in the middle of a term too?

No they don't. Baby boomers will continue to have a money and voting advantage until they start dying off 10 years from now. We are having a math discussion, you need to do the math - your analysis is way out. Whoever wrote that wikipedia entry obviously skipped math in school.
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post #431 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

No they don't. Baby boomers will continue to have a money and voting advantage until they start dying off 10 years from now. We are having a math discussion, you need to do the math - your analysis is way out. Whoever wrote that wikipedia entry obviously skipped math in school.

I can't take this topic seriously anymore after reading that US Census document. It captured the moment for me completely.

You ever see someone write "This explains so much" in one of these threads? The US CENSUS STUDY really ... REALLY ... explained so much!

I swear, someone couldn't make this up, it's too funny.
post #432 of 452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

According to media rhetoric

An interesting addition to that study...


I laughed.

Yes and media rhetoric is reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

I can't take this topic seriously anymore after reading that US Census document. It captured the moment for me completely.

You ever see someone write "This explains so much" in one of these threads? The US CENSUS STUDY really ... REALLY ... explained so much!

I swear, someone couldn't make this up, it's too funny.

That little anecdote explains nothing. It is akin to trying to claim The Simpson's is real life.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #433 of 452
Lets play it your way. The first baby boomer turned 18 in 1963. So if generation X is responsible for everything starting in 1979, the baby boomers are responsible for:

(just missed the cuban missle crisis in 1962)

- Security during President Kennedy, Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King assassinations
- Bombing raids into Vietnam, escalation of the Vietnam war
- Los Angeles Riots
- Assassination of Che Guevara, lots of other crazy stuff in South Ameria
- US support of Israel during both the 1967 and 1973 wars
- Most of the worst parts of the cold war
- Watergate

etc. In fact, since it didn't take very long for you to outnumber the previous generation (and we won't outnumber you for another 20 years or so from now), you bear even more responsibility for the events in the 1960s than we do for the events in the 1980s.
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post #434 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Yes and media rhetoric is reality.



That little anecdote explains nothing. It is akin to trying to claim The Simpson's is real life.

Sorry trumpy but it's almost like you're playing this tune to an almost empty auditorium.

Don't quit your day job.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #435 of 452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Lets play it your way. The first baby boomer turned 18 in 1963. So if generation X is responsible for everything starting in 1979, the baby boomers are responsible for:

(just missed the cuban missle crisis in 1962)

- Security during President Kennedy, Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King assassinations
- Bombing raids into Vietnam, escalation of the Vietnam war
- Los Angeles Riots
- Assassination of Che Guevara, lots of other crazy stuff in South Ameria
- US support of Israel during both the 1967 and 1973 wars
- Most of the worst parts of the cold war
- Watergate

etc. In fact, since it didn't take very long for you to outnumber the previous generation (and we won't outnumber you for another 20 years or so from now), you bear even more responsibility for the events in the 1960s than we do for the events in the 1980s.

Don't worry e#. If the thread has taught us anything, it is that the boomers do indeed have that blind spot. The kids and grandkids are lazy and apathetic if they don't want to pay off $17 trillion in debt (adding back the S.S. IOU's) and $100 trillion in promised benefits. They don't want to pay their 'fair share.'

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #436 of 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

So are you saying that most Boomers are drug addicts and overweight? If so you'll be asked to provide proof.

No, not at all.

Quote:

Make that comparitive proof.

I never claimed it, so why would I?

Quote:

Personally my girls say that there are more overweight kids in school now than there used to be ( too much video stuff and not enough outdoor activity ). When I was a kid there was only a few overweight kids in school. Now they say there's a lot of them. So being the fat kid doesn't carry the same stigma it once did.

I don't know if there are or not. Probably. Either way, let's not rely on the personal opinion of you and your girls.

Quote:

I do know this physical education was emphasized thanks to President Kennedy when I was in school. Maybe we need that again.

Yes, so we could be more fit than the Russians. Phys-Ed is not the problem anyway. It's the lifestyle at home that is the problem. I'm not sure it's really all that beneficial...and I say that as a special-area teacher.
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post #437 of 452
Thread Starter 
RCP notes the that future generations don't want to be chumps to the boomers.

Quote:
Millennials could become the chump generation. They could suffer for their elders' economic sins, particularly the failure to confront the predictable costs of baby boomers' retirement. This poses a question. In 2008, millennials voted 2-1 for Barack Obama; in surveys, they say they're more disposed than older Americans to big and activist government. Their ardor for Obama is already cooling. Will higher taxes dim their enthusiasm for government?

The party affiliations can change quickly when one generation is trying to put another generation on the hook for trillions more.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #438 of 452
Thread Starter 
How the baby boomers bust Britain: Self-indulgence has left the country financially, socially and even morally crippled

Quote:
For more than half a century, the generation of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown has been living it up, borrowing and spending in the conviction the money wouldn't run out.

But even as the first baby boomers are retiring and looking forward to their hefty pensions, the cost of their 60-year spree is becoming unpleasantly apparent.

As everyone who has ever thrown a party knows, there comes a point when somebody has to clear up. And, according to The Pinch, a new book by David Willetts - one of the more thoughtful Tories in the Shadow Cabinet - that moment is upon us.

While Britons lucky enough to be teenagers when the Beatles were in their heyday can congratulate themselves on their timing, those of us born after 1965 face a rather more disturbing prospect.

For, if Willetts is right, we will not only be picking up the bill for our parents' surging healthcare and pension costs, we will also be paying off their public debt for decades.......

......And four decades on, we are living in the world they created.

Britain has the highest rates for divorce and illegitimacy in the EU. And government figures show the proportion of single mothers has surged from ten to 25 per cent in the past 20 years.......

......For the boomers are not only bequeathing a more individualistic, selfish, atomised society. They are also handing over a Britain addicted to spending and crippled by debt - public and private........

......While Willetts suggests a revival of the family, the most basic and effective welfare system of all, might provide the answer, you wonder whether generations steeped in self-indulgence will be able to learn the self-discipline necessary to turn back the clock.

The truth is the baby-boomers' party went on too long. They ignored the warnings of their parents and were enjoying themselves so much they could barely hear the cries of their children.

They thought they were as rich as Croesus, the ancient king reckoned by the Greeks to be the wealthiest man in the world.

But they forgot what the philosopher Solon said when Croesus asked what he thought of his riches and good luck.

'Call no man happy,' said Solon drily, 'until he is dead.' He was right. Croesus eventually lost his money, his family broke up and he died in squalor.

The baby-boomers have to hope that their story turns out rather differently.

For if their luck runs out, then, like Croesus, they may end up with nothing but their memories to console them.

Be it here or in Britain, the Boomer legacy remains the same. Selfishness and narcissism with all that entails will be all they have in the end.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #439 of 452
Thread Starter 
Here's two recent articles for you.


Boomers still doing drugs as seniors.


Almost 5 percent of aging Baby Boomers in the United States are abusing drugs, a new government report shows.

That's about 4.3 million adults over the age of 50 who are smoking marijuana, abusing prescription medication and engaging in other illicit drug activity -- a number that far exceeds that of their parents' generation.......

......"This population tends to have other health problems, especially chronic health problems," Delany explained. "And as we age we don't metabolize drugs the same way."


Marijuana use on the rise with seniors

The most dramatic rise was between the age range of 55 to 59-years-old, in which the use of the drug tripled from 1.6 percent in 2002 to 5.1 percent in 2008.

Researchers believe that as the 78 million boomers age, there will be further increases.


Most folks would try to avoid such issues as they get older. As is usual, the boomers punch the accelerator. Perhaps you've smoked an extra 20 years beyond when you knew it was harmful. Sure you should have quit sooner but hey, I'm going to live forever. Now at the age at which those lung conditions are likely to flare up, increasing numbers (not all) of them are instead LIGHTING UP to get high.

You get older, the body does less, you learn to treat it better. As a generation for the boomers, the numbers are higher than previous generations and they aren't walking away from the bad habits, they are taking them up again.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #440 of 452
Thread Starter 
The "technicality" generation.

Quote:
Now that flawed thinking has been carried forward. Many of these men who evaded service but claimed idealism lead our elite institutions. The concept of using legal technicalities to evade responsibility has been carried over to playing with derivatives, or to short-changing shareholders. Once my generation got in the habit of saying one thing and believing another, it couldn’t stop.

Bizarre outcomes abound. Many of those who avoided the war became advocates of a muscular foreign policy. When I was on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, I would be invited to meetings in the Pentagon or the White House to discuss troop deployments. In those meetings, I encountered far too many Democrats and Republicans who did not serve in the war when they had a chance, and who overcompensated for their unease by sending others into harm’s way.

In the coming days, I imagine we will learn more details of Mr. Blumenthal’s sad story. What we know, though, more generally, is much more troubling. Too many members of my generation learned to believe that they could work within the law to evade basic responsibilities, cloaking their actions in idealism. It’s a way of thinking that scars us to this day.

You want to talk about an op-ed that manages to boil down the basic modus operandi of an entire generation, well this is it.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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