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Apple's LED Cinema Display: the review - Page 4

post #121 of 199
You can make your point clearly without resorting to 3rd grade embellishments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

So I guess it is eat shit and die for you.
post #122 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by inkswamp View Post

I have a friend and former colleague who does design work for a local business and he has a 24" iMac on his desk. Even without a direct source of light behind him (large windows are to his right) he has had to rearrange his workspace to alleviate some of the reflection and glare. He really hates the screen and seemed sort of glum about having the iMac. And this guy is a self-proclaimed Mac fanboy too.

I have pointed out several times now that one of the bragging rights about owning a Mac has been that it stays out of your way and is designed to fit the way people actually work. The fact that people have to adjust to accommodate the demands of the machine really sucks and is as far away from the Apple ideal as you can get.

I've never had any problems keeping matte screens clean and I'm not sure how much more durable a sheet of glass is by comparison. I have to say the idea of a breakable glass surface over the screen makes me a little nervous and doesn't seem any more durable than matte.

This is absolutely true. I will NOT drastically rearrange my workspace for a display!

As far as keeping a matte display clean: I NEVER touch it. EVER. I firmly request that people NOT touch the screen, whether it's my main monitor or MacBook Pro. It works.

I was extremely disappointed when I first saw the new display. For ME, the glossy screen is dreadful and a deal breaker. The DisplayPort connector is also an issue. I do like the built-in MagSafe connector. It's a very nice touch.

I immediately ordered a 26" ViewSonic VP2650wb monitor. No speakers or camera. It can be raised and lowered on it's stand and it pivots. It has both VGA and DVI inputs. It has a 4-port USB hub. The screen is matte. The bezel is matte black.

Sometimes Apple does some strange things at times. The numerous issues with this monitor, the gloss screens and the removal of FireWire 400 ports from the MacBook are clear examples.
Macintosh: It just WORKS!
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Macintosh: It just WORKS!
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post #123 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I love that I'm a "true arse" because I crack a joke about Jobs/Apple currently feels about matte display sales in relation to glossy display sales.

PS: Responding to Teckstud with facts, especially sourced ones, usually gets him riled up.

No- just your baseless posts sent from your elitist iPhone rile me up.
What fact did you post? That
Quote:
STEVE JOBS DOESN"T CARE ABOUT MATTE PEOPLE!

? Now that's a real sourced fact.
post #124 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

Also, for the $400 dollars you think you are saving you don't get power management, isight reroute, good sound with subwoofer, audio reroute, usb reroute, instant dual monitor if needed, an any other soft-hardware integration apple can think of. I don't know about you but it is just not worth my time to spend 2-3 hours researching a cheapo alternative for the pennies you will save.

But why do you need the iSight or speakers when any sane person would use dual screen and hence have the laptop iSight sitting right there anyway? And what are you talking about "instant dual monitor"?? They all do that!! My Philips display plugs into my MacBook Pro with DVI and as soon as I make the connection the laptop screen flashes blue for a second then comes back in extended desktop mode. It remembers my settings - screen positioning, desktop wallpaper. It's not something Apple Cinema Displays do. It's something Mac OS X does.

What "power management"?
post #125 of 199
Quote:
STEVE JOBS DOESN"T CARE ABOUT MATTE PEOPLE!

Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

? Now that's a real sourced fact.

I'm pretty sure it was a joke. Probably in poor taste, but a joke none the less.
post #126 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woz2024 View Post

But why do you need the iSight or speakers when any sane person would use dual screen and hence have the laptop iSight sitting right there anyway? And what are you talking about "instant dual monitor"?? They all do that!! My Philips display plugs into my MacBook Pro with DVI and as soon as I make the connection the laptop screen flashes blue for a second then comes back in extended desktop mode. It remembers my settings - screen positioning, desktop wallpaper. It's not something Apple Cinema Displays do. It's something Mac OS X does.

What "power management"?

I am not sure but I don't think I will want dual monitor if the second moni is the 13 or 15 inch screen and I need to rearrange all windows placements to take advantage of that... and when on the move I need to reset it all back to use just my laptop screen. Better for me to just keep the laptop closed and tucked away.

Power management or powering and recharging your laptop via the ACD instead of having more clutter from an extra magsafe power brick. You think this point is trivial until you have tasted the beauty of having a clutter free and streamlined setup in your office.

Just not worth the few hundred bucks your are "saving".
post #127 of 199
AI Staff: Has there been any determination if this is an IPS or PVA panel?
post #128 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDonG4 View Post

AI Staff: Has there been any determination if this is an IPS or PVA panel?

Who cares? It looks good, period.
post #129 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

Who cares? It looks good, period.

The looks of a monitor isn't the sole purpose of purchase. If it has a shitty LCD panel then I will go buy a monitor that doesn't have a shitty LCD panel.
post #130 of 199
I think he means the picture looks good. To some degree people make too much hay about the type panel used in the monitor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDonG4 View Post

The looks of a monitor isn't the sole purpose of purchase. If it has a shitty LCD panel then I will go buy a monitor that doesn't have a shitty LCD panel.
post #131 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I think he means the picture looks good. To some degree people make too much hay about the type panel used in the monitor.

You really need to do a standard test before determining the quality. Generally displaying a grayscale gradient full screen is a good way of determining quality. This shows what the dark scenes in movies will look like. Cheaper panels will show noticeable banding in the darker parts of the gradients and panels that use dithering show flickering. The PVA and IPS symbols should at least signify that these issues won't be so bad - banding should be less and flickering non-existent. At the price this display is at, I would hope that would be the case.
post #132 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

You really need to do a standard test before determining the quality. Generally displaying a grayscale gradient full screen is a good way of determining quality. This shows what the dark scenes in movies will look like. Cheaper panels will show noticeable banding in the darker parts of the gradients and panels that use dithering show flickering. The PVA and IPS symbols should at least signify that these issues won't be so bad - banding should be less and flickering non-existent. At the price this display is at, I would hope that would be the case.

How do you tell the difference between PVA and IPS? Does one have a better refresh rate?
post #133 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

You really need to do a standard test before determining the quality. Generally displaying a grayscale gradient full screen is a good way of determining quality. This shows what the dark scenes in movies will look like. Cheaper panels will show noticeable banding in the darker parts of the gradients and panels that use dithering show flickering. The PVA and IPS symbols should at least signify that these issues won't be so bad - banding should be less and flickering non-existent. At the price this display is at, I would hope that would be the case.

Standard tests are OK and maybe necessary if you are in graphics. To the 95% of us we need a display that does text without too much eye strain and does a nice job with pictures. A simple 30 minute test drive on the new ACD should be enough to convince anyone that it is as good as some of the best displays out there.
post #134 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

How do you tell the difference between PVA and IPS? Does one have a better refresh rate?

PVA has a contrast shift when changing viewing angle. Here are descriptions of the display types:

http://www.pchardwarehelp.com/guides...anel-types.php
http://www.pureoverclock.com/review.php?id=641&page=3
http://www.digitaltigers.com/s-ips.shtml

Most people probably couldn't tell the difference and they are priced about the same. If it's a Samsung, it's probably PVA, otherwise it could be a rebranded LG S-IPS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron

A simple 30 minute test drive on the new ACD should be enough to convince anyone that it is as good as some of the best displays out there.

A simple 30 minute test will show very little useful information for someone considering using it for 8 hours a day, all year round. Standard tests put the display under the conditions that will show it in its worst light so that you can be assured that you won't come across a scenario where the display doesn't work well. This goes for the glossy aspect. If they only showed it in good lighting, you'd be disappointed if you need to use it in a very brightly lit room.

If you are a gamer and the refresh is too low and this isn't tested, you won't find out until you buy one and find the fault while playing. If you don't test gradient banding and dithering, you may not see it until you view an image/movie that shows it up really badly.

If you don't test view-dependent color shifts, people who do use it for color correction may be disappointed at paying so much when they could have gone for an IPS display where this wouldn't be an issue.

If someone standing in front of a screen telling you it looks great watching whatever film is showing is enough to satisfy you, I doubt you are in the market for a $900 display. If I was looking to pay that much for a screen, I'd try to have people run as many thorough tests as possible to make sure I wasn't just throwing money away. You might be able to get a Dell display with a similar panel for half the price.

I get the impression that Apple aren't quite sure who this display is meant for. They seem to be marketing it to consumers but pricing for professionals.
post #135 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

Who cares? It looks good, period.

Exactly iSheeps will buy anything with Apple logo on it, despite there are cheaper, better quality, more inputs, better refresh rate, and better color reproduction models from Dell, EIZO and NEC.

Apple not telling about S-PVA / S-IPS technology used should be enough for a person with a brain to NOT consider this panel at all.

But ... people with a brain are not market segment Apple is selling to lately. Those times are long gone.

It is really pathetic how Apple can get away with selling underperforming but overpriced HW. That company does not care about professionals anymore, they are selling to snobs and fashion lovers.

Since switching to Dell machines, Dell monitors (excellent 30" 3008WFP) and Vista x64 from Mac, I couldn't be happier.
Vista x64 - the only true 64bit desktop OS
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Vista x64 - the only true 64bit desktop OS
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post #136 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by rADo View Post

Exactly iSheeps will buy anything with Apple logo on it, despite there are cheaper, better quality, more inputs, better refresh rate, and better color reproduction models from Dell, EIZO and NEC.

Apple not telling about S-PVA / S-IPS technology used should be enough for a person with a brain to NOT consider this panel at all.

But ... people with a brain are not market segment Apple is selling to lately. Those times are long gone.

It is really pathetic how Apple can get away with selling underperforming but overpriced HW. That company does not care about professionals anymore, they are selling to snobs and fashion lovers.

Since switching to Dell machines, Dell monitors (excellent 30" 3008WFP) and Vista x64 from Mac, I couldn't be happier.

Enjoy your Dell.
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post #137 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by rADo View Post

Exactly iSheeps will buy anything with Apple logo on it, despite there are cheaper, better quality, more inputs, better refresh rate, and better color reproduction models from Dell, EIZO and NEC.

Apple not telling about S-PVA / S-IPS technology used should be enough for a person with a brain to NOT consider this panel at all.

But ... people with a brain are not market segment Apple is selling to lately. Those times are long gone.

It is really pathetic how Apple can get away with selling underperforming but overpriced HW. That company does not care about professionals anymore, they are selling to snobs and fashion lovers.

Since switching to Dell machines, Dell monitors (excellent 30" 3008WFP) and Vista x64 from Mac, I couldn't be happier.

LOL!!

As usual, you, like the majority of the populous, focus on tech buzz words to feel smart (S-PVA, S-IPS, gray-to-gray) and number of features instead of looking at the whole package for yourself with a critical eye (read: test drive it).

Again, the ACD is more expensive than comparable 24 inch LCDs but it does more. Most will be able to "live" with the inferior usability of other LCDs, others (read: the ones with real jobs) will care more about productivity and about not having to worry to plug 5 extra cables or remember to switch functions from one display to the other. Those are the people for whom time = money.
post #138 of 199
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
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He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
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post #139 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

24" LED ACD is an IPS panel.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost...11&postcount=1

Cool, are we done now?
post #140 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

Cool, are we done now?

Apparently we're not done until you're done belittling other people for having a viewpoint that disagrees with yours.
post #141 of 199
Tauron, you are an idiot and an ill spoken bufoon, and you prove it with each post you make.

Now, to everyone else here..... I've been an Apple user and owner for over 14 years. In that time I've persuaded dozens of friends, family members, and coworkers into purchasing Macs. Today, with the current offerings of Macs and other related hardware, I won't be trying to lead anyone toward Apple.

Macs share the same hardware as other PC vendors so why is it that their systems still lag behind other vendors in hardware? Where is BluRay? Why a non-standard video port? Why do MacBook Pros have slower CPUs than competitors? And why these substandard screens for MacBooks and MacBook Pro. Someone earlier suggested to compare MacBooks to Sony Vaios, which I did and the Vaios look very good in comparison. They have faster Core 2 Duos, better displays up to 18.6", BluRay drives, up to 1 TB HD, or dual SSD or both, up to 8 GB RAM, FireWire, HDMI, webcam, etc... and they have appealing, cleanly designed cases.

Gaming and BluRay movies on the go on an 18.6" X-Brite HD display & a 50 GB optical burner is what I was hoping for in new MacBooks. I don't own a TV and don't plan to own one for a long time. My MacBook Pro has a HD capable 1920 x 1200 display, yet I can't watch HD movies on it as there is no BluRay drive nor are there HD movies for sale or rent via iTunes. SD movies including DVDs look blurry as they are SD and have to be scaled up a lot to fill the screen. Apple expects me to own an HD TV so I can buy an Apple TV if I want to buy or rent HD movies from iTunes, even thought my MacBook Pro's hardware is perfectly capable of playing and displaying HD media.

The Vaio can play BluRay movies which are higher definition, more HD than Apple TV's offerings. With the Vaio, the only downside is running Vista. But, with EFI-x, maybe they can run OS X, too. And the prices, especially after adding options, are very reasonable.

I feel the same about the new ACD. I'd rather just a high quality monitor without the cameras and speakers and especially the glassy mirror screen. So it looks like I'm shopping elsewhere for a monitor as well.
post #142 of 199
I'm happy with my Macs.

My wife is, too. She hates occasionally having to use Windoze at work; the user interface and the general appearance of the apps is cold and impersonal and makes her feel detatched. The Macs are a tool that work with her.

She was a Windoze user for almost 20 years before switching; she no longer owns a PC and would not dream of buying another.

---

Saw the ACD the other day. Not bad, not great. Hopefully they will be coming out with something a little better that will connect to my MacPro that I bought this spring...

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #143 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJedi View Post

Now, to everyone else here..... I've been an Apple user and owner for over 14 years. In that time I've persuaded dozens of friends, family members, and coworkers into purchasing Macs. Today, with the current offerings of Macs and other related hardware, I won't be trying to lead anyone toward Apple.

Hey man its, about what you've done lately. All you need to do is step out of line once to be branded a traitor to Macdom.

Quote:
The Vaio can play BluRay movies which are higher definition, more HD than Apple TV's offerings. With the Vaio, the only downside is running Vista. But, with EFI-x, maybe they can run OS X, too. And the prices, especially after adding options, are very reasonable.

EFI-X requires a 10-pin internal USB port. That means it will only work with PC computers.

Quote:
I feel the same about the new ACD. I'd rather just a high quality monitor without the cameras and speakers and especially the glassy mirror screen. So it looks like I'm shopping elsewhere for a monitor as well.

Best computer monitor that doesn't have a market. Glossy screen will turn off pros while the price is unaffordable to most consumers. Apple would be better off with a glossy consumer line with 19" and 22" TN panels for the MacMini and 20, 24, and 30" Matte IPS/PVA displays for the Pro.
post #144 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

Hey man its, about what you've done lately. All you need to do is step out of line once to be branded a traitor to Macdom.



EFI-X requires a 10-pin internal USB port. That means it will only work with PC computers.



Best computer monitor that doesn't have a market. Glossy screen will turn off pros while the price is unaffordable to most consumers. Apple would be better off with a glossy consumer line with 19" and 22" TN panels for the MacMini and 20, 24, and 30" Matte IPS/PVA displays for the Pro.


Guess I'm not pro enough, then.

I want one but it won't connect to my MacPro... yet.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #145 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJedi View Post

Tauron, you are an idiot and an ill spoken bufoon, and you prove it with each post you make.

Now, to everyone else here..... I've been an Apple user and owner for over 14 years. In that time I've persuaded dozens of friends, family members, and coworkers into purchasing Macs. Today, with the current offerings of Macs and other related hardware, I won't be trying to lead anyone toward Apple.

Macs share the same hardware as other PC vendors so why is it that their systems still lag behind other vendors in hardware? Where is BluRay? Why a non-standard video port? Why do MacBook Pros have slower CPUs than competitors? And why these substandard screens for MacBooks and MacBook Pro. Someone earlier suggested to compare MacBooks to Sony Vaios, which I did and the Vaios look very good in comparison. They have faster Core 2 Duos, better displays up to 18.6", BluRay drives, up to 1 TB HD, or dual SSD or both, up to 8 GB RAM, FireWire, HDMI, webcam, etc... and they have appealing, cleanly designed cases.

Gaming and BluRay movies on the go on an 18.6" X-Brite HD display & a 50 GB optical burner is what I was hoping for in new MacBooks. I don't own a TV and don't plan to own one for a long time. My MacBook Pro has a HD capable 1920 x 1200 display, yet I can't watch HD movies on it as there is no BluRay drive nor are there HD movies for sale or rent via iTunes. SD movies including DVDs look blurry as they are SD and have to be scaled up a lot to fill the screen. Apple expects me to own an HD TV so I can buy an Apple TV if I want to buy or rent HD movies from iTunes, even thought my MacBook Pro's hardware is perfectly capable of playing and displaying HD media.

The Vaio can play BluRay movies which are higher definition, more HD than Apple TV's offerings. With the Vaio, the only downside is running Vista. But, with EFI-x, maybe they can run OS X, too. And the prices, especially after adding options, are very reasonable.

I feel the same about the new ACD. I'd rather just a high quality monitor without the cameras and speakers and especially the glassy mirror screen. So it looks like I'm shopping elsewhere for a monitor as well.

Windows PC garbage hardware is worth $0 dollars as soon as the next model is launched 2 months after you bought yours. Macs hold their worth for much longer and you can still sell a used laptop a year later without taking a huge hit. In the end they really cost the same because you won't be throwing your mac on the trashcan if you have brains, which you clearly don't since you can't grasp the simple concept of depreciation cost.

Besides, you will have lost software-hardware integration that Apple hardware has and you will have to do extra work to install leopard.

Good luck to you and good riddance.
post #146 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJedi View Post

Tauron, you are an idiot and an ill spoken bufoon, and you prove it with each post you make.

Personal insults are unnecessary.

Quote:
Macs share the same hardware as other PC vendors so why is it that their systems still lag behind other vendors in hardware? Where is BluRay? Why a non-standard video port? Why do MacBook Pros have slower CPUs than competitors? And why these substandard screens for MacBooks and MacBook Pro. Someone earlier suggested to compare MacBooks to Sony Vaios, which I did and the Vaios look very good in comparison. They have faster Core 2 Duos, better displays up to 18.6", BluRay drives, up to 1 TB HD, or dual SSD or both, up to 8 GB RAM, FireWire, HDMI, webcam, etc... and they have appealing, cleanly designed cases.



The MacBook Pro is upgradable to the same 2.8GHz Core duo

I've seen no definitive review proclaiming Sony XBRITE to be much
better than other display technologies. What proof do you have
that Apple is using a substandard display in comparison to
XBRITE?

For the Mac to use Blu-ray movies Apple would have to implement Blu-ray DRM
into OS X. Which Apple is in no rush to do. Plus Blu-ray has not had
wide consumer adoption. Standard definition DVD's still far outsell
Blu-ray. Sony includes Blu-ray into its computers because Blu-ray
is Sony's format.

The 1 TB hard drive is only 4200 RPM. I can agree that Apple should at least
include the 500GB 5200 RPM hard drive as an upgrade option.

This Vaio you use as an example uses an older intel chip set that runs 800MHz.
The MacBook Pro uses a newer 1600MHz chipset. The reason the Vaio can use
8GB of RAM is because it uses the older DDR2 RAM chips. The Mac Book Pro
uses the newer DDR3 RAM chips, which their are no 4GB chips for quite yet.

HDMI is not a computer display port. HDMI is a consumer television audio/video display port.
Since hardly anyone is commonly yet using Display Port, their is no standard Display Port.
Apple has an open and free license for others to use mini-Display Port
so it is possible that it may become the standard port.

Also just to let you know Apple's MacBook's are far outselling Sony's Vaio's.
post #147 of 199
What point does it serve to come to a Mac enthusiast website and complain about Apple not doing what its competitors are doing. Complain that Apple isn't making the same choices as companies who either don't make as much money as Apple or companies who don't sell as many computers as Apple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

Hey man its, about what you've done lately. All you need to do is step out of line once to be branded a traitor to Macdom.
post #148 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

What point does it serve to come to a Mac enthusiast website and complain about Apple not doing what its competitors are doing. Complain that Apple isn't making the same choices as companies who either don't make as much money as Apple or companies who don't sell as many computers as Apple.

A) This is about Apple not offer what Apple used to offer. Competitors are used for comparison. Form over function is a recent development, not the way Apple has always done things.

B) Apple is selling more computers because they have chosen to sell to the same lower end demographic as HP and Dell. They just sell at higher margins.

C) If apple is making its money by burning bridges with the customers, that might make it a bunch of money now, but put it a bad position for future sales. Try looking deeper than the PR releases Apple puts out.

D) Being a Mac enthusiast doesn't mean mindlessly rubber stamping all that Apple does.
post #149 of 199
Apple is not burning bridges and their hardware is actually more price competitive today that it was in the past.

Low end 24" screens go for $400 these days but high end can get to $900. Apple sells a pretty good screen with docking capabilities for $900. Not bad at all.

About Sony Vaios: terrible reliability. I know of two that didn't last over 1 year with normal use and I recently got my hands on one and I wasn't impressed at all.

Besides the main distinguishing factor here is not hardware, it is software. You pay the apple tax ~10-15% to be able to use Leopard and enjoy streamlined operation and not the endless nightmares brought to you courtesy of MS Winblows.
post #150 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

A) This is about Apple not offer what Apple used to offer. Competitors are used for comparison. Form over function is a recent development, not the way Apple has always done things.

Because Apple offers such a limited selection, their have always been people who complained that Apple did not provide the computer they wanted.

Quote:
B) Apple is selling more computers because they have chosen to sell to the same lower end demographic as HP and Dell. They just sell at higher margins.

What constitutes the lower end demographic? You are speaking in broad and vague references, what demographic are you talking about?

Quote:
C) If apple is making its money by burning bridges with the customers, that might make it a bunch of money now, but put it a bad position for future sales. Try looking deeper than the PR releases Apple puts out.

As Apple's sales only continue to improve their is no evidence they are burning bridges. This is not judged on Apple PR. Its judged on their quarterly earnings reports.

Quote:
D) Being a Mac enthusiast doesn't mean mindlessly rubber stamping all that Apple does.

No it doesn't. But you certainly are free to not buy a Mac if you feel it does not suit your needs.
post #151 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

Apple is not burning bridges and their hardware is actually more price competitive today that it was in the past.

Really? Have you been ignoring the longtime professional Mac users here who are less than pleased with Apple? Oh wait, since nobody can be unhappy with Apple, they most really be POC users.

Quote:
Low end 24" screens go for $400 these days but high end can get to $900. Apple sells a pretty good screen with docking capabilities for $900. Not bad at all.

I think you really need to learn the differences in panel technologies. Consumer TN panel displays are much cheaper and have a quick refresh rate. Professional IPS or PVA displays are more expensive and have a slower refresh rate, but offer truer color. Glossy screen offer more vibrant colors but reduce color accuracy. All factors have strengths and weakness depending on their intended users. Apple is trying to make a jack of all trades here. Professionals aren't going to like glossy screen while consumers aren't going to like the price or the slower refresh rate.

Quote:
Besides the main distinguishing factor here is not hardware, it is software. You pay the apple tax ~10-15% to be able to use Leopard and enjoy streamlined operation and not the endless nightmares brought to you courtesy of MS Winblows.

Unfortunately the hardware Apple makes doesn't take full advantages of the capabilities of the OS. Not even close. There are many things that my PowerMac could do that the laptop on a stick cannot.

And that 10-15% is dependent on similar hardware. If you want desktop capabilities on the Mac, the tax is more like 100% Why? Because apple does not make a desktop, you have to move up to a workstation to get them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Because Apple offers such a limited selection, their have always been people who complained that Apple did not provide the computer they wanted.

That selection has be come progressively more limited as apple has cut models and capabilities. This was Apple's lineup just a couple of years ago:
Mac Mini
eMac
iMac
low end PowerMac
High end PowerMac
12" iBook
14" iBook
12"Powerbook
15" Powerbook
17" Powerbook

The eMac (affordable all in one), low end PowerMac, big screen iBook, and small screen Powerbook have been dropped without replacement the iBook's replacement the Macbook recently got one of its better features dropped. The Mini has been also effectively left for dead. All four of those were pretty big sellers for Apple.

Quote:
What constitutes the lower end demographic? You are speaking in broad and vague references, what demographic are you talking about?

Roughly the home iPod users. Their wants are something stylish that can cruise myspace/facebook, play their music, and let them talk their friends. The iMac/Macbook are perfect for this, but not so good for much more

Quote:
As Apple's sales only continue to improve their is no evidence they are burning bridges. This is not judged on Apple PR. Its judged on their quarterly earnings reports.

Try opening your eyes instead of flaming people for actually having concerns. All is not well in Mac land. Quarterly earning reports do not customer satisfaction for 2 1/2-4 years when it is time to buy the next one. I look the same on an earning report as someone who is perfectly happy with their iMac. All they show is that one was bought.

Quote:
No it doesn't. But you certainly are free to not buy a Mac if you feel it does not suit your needs.

You are also free to ignore those who have concerns and just be happy with your purchase.
post #152 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

Really? Have you been ignoring the longtime professional Mac users here who are less than pleased with Apple? Oh wait, since nobody can be unhappy with Apple, they most really be POC users.

Well we've seen people who don't use their real names and proclaim themselves professionals.



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Unfortunately the hardware Apple makes doesn't take full advantages of the capabilities of the OS. Not even close. There are many things that my PowerMac could do that the laptop on a stick cannot.

There is some functionality with desktops that is not feasible on notebooks, just as their is some functionality with notebooks that are not feasible with desktops. But its proven that notebook functionality is more important for most people and is the reason why the gap between notebook and desktop sales widens every year.



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The eMac (affordable all in one), low end PowerMac, big screen iBook, and small screen Powerbook have been dropped without replacement the iBook's replacement the Macbook recently got one of its better features dropped. The Mini has been also effectively left for dead. All four of those were pretty big sellers for Apple.

Ultimately Apple knows how profitable these machines were. They adjust their product offerings to what they feel are in their best interests.



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Roughly the home iPod users. Their wants are something stylish that can cruise myspace/facebook, play their music, and let them talk their friends. The iMac/Macbook are perfect for this, but not so good for much more.

The top end iMac has a dual 3GHz processor, 1080 screen, and Nvidia Gefore 8800 GPU. Their is quite a bit you can do with that capability.


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Try opening your eyes instead of flaming people for actually having concerns. All is not well in Mac land. Quarterly earning reports do not customer satisfaction for 2 1/2-4 years when it is time to buy the next one. I look the same on an earning report as someone who is perfectly happy with their iMac. All they show is that one was bought.

Are you claiming you can see into the future? Or are you simply hoping people will not be satisfied and ultimately validate your complaints.


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You are also free to ignore those who have concerns and just be happy with your purchase.

It all gets so tiring and predictable. People complain about the same thing over and over. People compare a Mac to a computer that has some key differences and trade offs. People complain that Apple isn't like some other company that is less profitable.

These complaints are more than often not well thought out.
post #153 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

There is some functionality with desktops that is not feasible on notebooks, just as their is some functionality with notebooks that are not feasible with desktops. But its proven that notebook functionality is more important for most people and is the reason why the gap between notebook and desktop sales widens every year.

There is also the situation on this platform where the notebooks offer more expandability the two "desktops". Why buy the iMac when it is little more than non-portable version of the Macbook Pro.

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Ultimately Apple knows how profitable these machines were. They adjust their product offerings to what they feel are in their best interests.

Or what confines in their design philosophy. Either way their choices are detrimental to the users.

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The top end iMac has a dual 3GHz processor, 1080 screen, and Nvidia Gefore 8800 GPU. Their is quite a bit you can do with that capability.

And you have the pay a small fortune for it as well. You're still limited by a design that uses a slot loading notebook optical drives, a hardrive that you have to take the machine apart to access, and a maxiumum of 4GB of ram. The all in one has its uses, but its playing out of its element here. A tower can do the same job better and cheaper.

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Are you claiming you can see into the future? Or are you simply hoping people will not be satisfied and ultimately validate your complaints.

People are not satisfied now, you just chose to ignore and belittle them because it does not conform to your belief that Apple is always right.

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It all gets so tiring and predictable. People complain about the same thing over and over. People compare a Mac to a computer that has some key differences and trade offs. People complain that Apple isn't like some other company that is less profitable.

Of course we complain? Why? Because Apple releases machines that are progressively less capable than the machine it replaced for the sake of vanity. PowerMac too useful? Here's a pretty iMac. You're using the firewire port on your Mac? Can't have that. He's a new one that's a bit thinner. There are those of use who care more about what a machine can do than who it looks. Most of us came to Apple because they used to be the company for such users. Not only do we have to worry about a large financial investment that we spent on a platform that is serving our needs less and less every year, we have to also listen to people like you.

Quote:
These complaints are more than often not well thought out.

Gee, I didn't know actual computer needs were so superfluous.
post #154 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

There is also the situation on this platform where the notebooks offer more expandability the two "desktops". Why buy the iMac when it is little more than non-portable version of the Macbook Pro.

The far majority of peripherals are made for USB. The mobile phone carriers are moving from expansion cards to USB dongles for 3G access.

The iMac has a larger screen and faster CPU/GPU. But I do agree with in that with this new ACD for MacBooks. Their is less reason to buy an iMac.

Quote:
Or what confines in their design philosophy. Either way their choices are detrimental to the users.

Sales do not bear this out. If consumers felt they were being constrained by Apple's choices they would not buy Apple's products.


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And you have the pay a small fortune for it as well. You're still limited by a design that uses a slot loading notebook optical drives, a hardrive that you have to take the machine apart to access, and a maxiumum of 4GB of ram. The all in one has its uses, but its playing out of its element here. A tower can do the same job better and cheaper.

These things are not that important to most people. iMac sales are pretty good.


Quote:
People are not satisfied now, you just chose to ignore and belittle them because it does not conform to your belief that Apple is always right.

I can clearly see that you are not satisfied. Where in any of this have I said Apple is always right. What I point out is the fact that Apple's sales have supported its choices. Sales are not supporting your assertion that most people are unhappy with Apple's choices.


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Most of us came to Apple because they used to be the company for such users. Not only do we have to worry about a large financial investment that we spent on a platform that is serving our needs less and less every year, we have to also listen to people like you.

To me this sounds like a great opportunity for some other company to fill the gap you feel that Apple has left wide open. That would really show them about neglecting their professional customers.
post #155 of 199
Some PC vendors offer very high quality, well designed notebooks. The Sony Vaio are very nice notebooks with up to 1 TB HD, BluRay Read/Write, 18.6" screen with satin finish, up to 8 GB RAM.

Sony uses the same hardware as the MacBook, but they offer a little more and at reasonable prices.

MacBooks are PCs, they use the exact, same hardware. Apple doesn't even make the logicboards anymore. Take away the case, and it's a PC laptop. There is no excuse to not include the latest and greatest, at least as much as their competitors, for the premium price they are charging. SuperDrive? My PowerBook G4 had the same "SuperDrive". DVD isn't very Super these days. BluRay is today and Apple's still on the DVD treadmill. And they are dropping features and functionality and reducing choice in their offerings. Even the new MacBook Pro would require me to purchase a FireWire hub as it has lost the FW400 port. My external drives run off the FW800 port on my 17" MacBook Pro, and my Black Box runs off the FW 400 port. I'm not even sure if recording sessions will work through a FW hub. So for my uses, the only notebook that Apple offers that fits the bill is the older 17", which I bought. If I knew about the Sony first, and if it could run OS X, I might have decided differently.

I don't like to see Sony making notebooks as nice or nicer than Apple's but that is what is happening. I expect premium features, performance, and connectivity for a premium price. The pretty case is a plus, but it's not why I buy a computer. My concern is with the direction Apple is headed they won't make a computer that I want to buy very soon. My current MacBook Pro 17" will serve me for the next few years, but after that I'm not so sure if I'll buy another Mac, and that's something I've never considered since my first Mac. If Apple drops FW, then there will be little keeping me in their camp. And I've spent nearly $10,000 on Apple in the past 8 years.

Another thing, I used to feel that Apple had my interests (and their users') at heart, but now I feel they only have their own. I know that's an intangible, but with their increased success they are becoming more like Micro$oft in ways I didn't dream possible before. Think Different, indeed.
post #156 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The far majority of peripherals are made for USB. The mobile phone carriers are moving from expansion cards to USB dongles for 3G access.

Majority doesn't mean better.

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The iMac has a larger screen and faster CPU/GPU.

Not by much unless you buy the high end model with the 8800M GTS err I mean 8800GS

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But I do agree with in that with this new ACD for MacBooks. There is less reason to buy an iMac.

I would venture to say that combined with the new ACD, the Macbooks might be a better computer.

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Sales do not bear this out. If consumers felt they were being constrained by Apple's choices they would not buy Apple's products.

These things are not that important to most people. iMac sales are pretty good.

The average user is also coming over from a cheap Dell or HP. The Macbook or iMac they buy may be even be above their needs. That being said, why constrain the traditional Mac user based on the needs of the least demanding user. What would it hurt to release another lower end member PowerMac/MacPro line, especially with the Core i7 and the xeon 5500 using the same tylersburg chipset. No additional drivers required. It would be just like the G5 tower using different variations of U3/4. Those who want the iMac are going to buy the iMac. Those who want a tower would be content and Apple might sell a few more cinema displays along the way.

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I can clearly see that you are not satisfied. Where in any of this have I said Apple is always right.

I have yet to see you take a position that differs from Apple no matter how controversial it is.

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What I point out is the fact that Apple's sales have supported its choices. Sales are not supporting your assertion that most people are unhappy with Apple's choices.

Like I said, it won't be evident 2-4 years when they buy their next computer. Most of those sales are to those who have not bought a Mac before. There are also users, like me, who had reservations but were willing to give Apple the benefit of the doubt or it wasn't financially feasible to switch.

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To me this sounds like a great opportunity for some other company to fill the gap you feel that Apple has left wide open. That would really show them about neglecting their professional customers.

Trust me, you don't want that. Once those users are make the financial investment to switch, they're likely not coming back and Win7 is looking like it might actually be somewhat tolerable. Do you really want to bet the future of the Mac on switchers?
post #157 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJedi View Post

Some PC vendors offer very high quality, well designed notebooks. The Sony Vaio are very nice notebooks with up to 1 TB HD, BluRay Read/Write, 18.6" screen with satin finish, up to 8 GB RAM.

The problem is that you cannot just read off a spec sheet with a bunch of numbers and declare one machine better than another. Every machine is offering pros and cons of some sort. You have to figure out which pro and con works better for you. A big hard drive isn't all that impressive if its slow. The last generation of MacBooks can use that same 8GB of RAM. The newest MacBook cannot because its using a newer faster memory chip.

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Sony uses the same hardware as the MacBook, but they offer a little more and at reasonable prices.

That Sony Vaio you were looking at does not use all the same hardware as the current MacBook.

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I don't like to see Sony making notebooks as nice or nicer than Apple's but that is what is happening. I expect premium features, performance, and connectivity for a premium price.

Sony has been making premium computers for many years now. This is not new.
post #158 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

Majority doesn't mean better.

Better is relative. USB is not the faster port connection but it is the most widely used.


Quote:
I would venture to say that combined with the new ACD, the Macbooks might be a better computer.

To be fair the MacBook was just refreshed, and the iMac is long at the end of its refresh cycle. It will leap the MacBook again when it is refreshed.


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The average user is also coming over from a cheap Dell or HP. The Macbook or iMac they buy may be even be above their needs. That being said, why constrain the traditional Mac user based on the needs of the least demanding user. What would it hurt to release another lower end member PowerMac/MacPro line, especially with the Core i7 and the xeon 5500 using the same tylersburg chipset. No additional drivers required. It would be just like the G5 tower using different variations of U3/4. Those who want the iMac are going to buy the iMac. Those who want a tower would be content and Apple might sell a few more cinema displays along the way.

I don't know, you have to take that up with the people who make these decisions.



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I have yet to see you take a position that differs from Apple no matter how controversial it is.

When the new MacBook Pro was introduced I was interested in a 15" or 17" with 1080 screen and a 500GB HD. They did not make the computer I wanted so I haven't bought it.

Perhaps I will buy a new one in the spring when they have their next refresh.



Quote:
Like I said, it won't be evident 2-4 years when they buy their next computer. Most of those sales are to those who have not bought a Mac before. There are also users, like me, who had reservations but were willing to give Apple the benefit of the doubt or it wasn't financially feasible to switch.

Its all a sliding scale. in 2-4 years Apple will have changed its computers from what they are now.



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Trust me, you don't want that. Once those users are make the financial investment to switch, they're likely not coming back and Win7 is looking like it might actually be somewhat tolerable. Do you really want to bet the future of the Mac on switchers?

Its fine with me if someone comes out with a better computer than Apple. Competition is good.
post #159 of 199
"The Apple LED Cinema Display impressed us the most in its color reproduction and contrast results. In our Extreme Grayscale Bars and Intensity and Grayscale tests, the display scored higher than any previous display we've tested. In these tests, the display was able to produce pure white as well as very light grays--a challenging feat for most displays, but the Cinema Display does it nearly perfectly. On the same token, it was able to display near true black while showing very dark grays. Also, it reproduced the grayscale (the shades of gray between black and white) accurately without any signs of other colors. This indicates that it does not have any color-tracking errors. The display performed perfectly in most of our color tests, as well. Apple LED Cinema Display was able to scale dark shades of specific colors into lighter shades of the same color without compressing the shades in between. This indicates a very accurate representation of color all around."

CNET
post #160 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

"The Apple LED Cinema Display impressed us the most in its color reproduction and contrast results. In our Extreme Grayscale Bars and Intensity and Grayscale tests, the display scored higher than any previous display we've tested. In these tests, the display was able to produce pure white as well as very light grays--a challenging feat for most displays, but the Cinema Display does it nearly perfectly. On the same token, it was able to display near true black while showing very dark grays. Also, it reproduced the grayscale (the shades of gray between black and white) accurately without any signs of other colors. This indicates that it does not have any color-tracking errors. The display performed perfectly in most of our color tests, as well. Apple LED Cinema Display was able to scale dark shades of specific colors into lighter shades of the same color without compressing the shades in between. This indicates a very accurate representation of color all around."

CNET

And there you go...

Hopefully now the cheapo display advocates and their $400 choices that end up giving you a bad case of astigmatism will shut the hell up.
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