Cellphone vendors could exit business if economy remains bleak - Page 4

Where in post 67 did you give a definition? That was a post by me responding to you.


It has Bluetooth. That means it has the feature. It doesn't have to support every aspect of the feature.

Hmmmm, most of the smart phones I see are at Starbucks or Panera. The largest % of folks I see still use plain ole flip phones. Heck, I still use a snicker-style phone and have no desire to upgrade. If I want the internet I use a laptop. If I want a palm-sized-ISH device for portable internet I would rather have a small, but complete, tablet device that can act as a full computer, not a dumbed-down handheld.

When I can buy an iPod Touch/iPhone and pair it with a bluetooth keyboard so that I can take notes in class as if I had a laptop then Apple will get my money.

Lets hope all smartphones except the iphone goes to hell.

Most smartphones I see are on the NYC subway, and in the hands of the parents and students of my daughters high school. Mostly iPhones and Blackberry's, with a smattering of Palm treos.

What features does it support? Isn't it just the earbud headset connection? I don't think Bluetooth 2.0 + EDR is necessary for that.

Sorry, 53, now go back and read it again. It has a definition of the word FULL, and the word FEATURE.


But is it fully implemented?, no, so Daniel was wrong in saying it is a full featured phone, it isn't. If you can accept it too bad.

It isn't required.

I'm not your friend (no offense) and it is your logic, from what I can tell. If it's not yours, whose is it!?


Doesn't matter who used the word first, you did use in your complaint. Let me reacquaint you with your own words:


I understand that you used another person's argument about copy/paste to back up your demand for copy/paste. You went on to augment that argument with your own like-minded thoughts.


So you're trying to guilt me now for your nonsensical argument?

(As for Rush, being the propagator of hate speech doesn't make him much better than the originators of said hate speech. Come on now.)

That's not a real definition. You can't take two separate words and use the dictionary for each, put them together as though there is no real world understanding.

That's what you did.

You are taking the word "full" to mean that a definition of full featured is impossible to meet in the real world, because no product ever produced could ever hope to meet the definition as you are using it.

Therefor, it isn't a real definition. And actually, you didn't even give a definition of the term. You just used each work by itself.

Essentially, you're making up your own definition without really working to define a real one, which is what I asked you to do.

What you did is a cop out.

It's why I said that going by your apparent definition (which isn't real), then any product that didn't have all features, both real and imagined, couldn't be called full featured. As many products are described that way, by your lights, none of them should be.

That's why it's hard to take what you're saying seriously.

It's like saying "full figured" to describe a woman. Most people would agree on what that means, but a few won't. It's the few who are out of the ball park, not the majority.


And that's an example of your wrongness in this. Where do you draw the line?

Where are cell phones headed? This link has been posted elsewhere, but it's worth viewing in the context of this thread.

http://fora.tv/2008/07/07/Walt_Mossb...the_Cell_Phone

Quotes:

"The iPhone is the first hand-held computer that happens to make voice calls."

"The iPhone is the first hand-held computer that has a PC grade operating system."

"The user interface does not attempt to mimic the PC."

There's much, much more. Mossberg's talk was given in July, but product developments that he forecast then are coming to market today.

What? That is the way it works I'm afraid.

full wagon - the wagon has no more capacity, not there appears to be a wagon there, which is good enough for us.



No, I am taking the definition for what it is, you are the one having the problem with it.

The article that was posted on AI, mentioned a full featured device, you can either take that to mean one of two things.

1. The device has a complete set of features
2. The features the device has are fully implemented.

If Daniel was correct (which I don't believe he is) in his assertion of the iPhone being full featured, which one was he referring to? Choose carefully, as the iPhone does not meet either definition


See, there is your issue, I am not talking about another other device, in fact my complaint is not even about the iPhone, I am talking about an article that was published on AI, an article that contains false information.


I don't care how you take it, I know I am correct.

I concur, mostly what I see in NYC are iPhones and BlackBerry's. I do see some old Palm Treos and some old T-Mobile Sidekicks.

I think the Treo is giving way to iPhone and Blackberry, while the Sidekick is giving way to the Blackberry Pearl.

So a water balloon is a balloon made out of water? Hot sauce is sauce at high temperature? Ice cream is cream made from ice or is it ice made from cream!!??

There, three examples how that logic doesn't work. You only need one differing example to disprove a point like that.


Well, that's one of us. Also explains why you refuse to be rational.

I think "highly functional" is a better description of the class of device they are referring to.

I am sorry but you are not correct. Based on this definition from PC Magazine.

Let's hope other companies give Apple some healthy competition to keep the iPhone on the cutting-edge of both features and price.

This reminds me for some reason of the plight the US automakers are having right now. They became too complacent with themselves thinking they had the product for all the times. Now they are stuck with products no one wants.

The smartphone makers are in the same boat. They had stagnant products and it took a new player to the scene to really make them look bad. I have no pity for them.

You may be afraid, but that's not the way it works.

There are subtle differences between words used alone, and idiomatic expressions that include them. Full featured is one of those expressions that everyone (almost, it seems) understands.


That's not an ideomatic expression.

What we're talking about is like the difference between the "letter of the law" and the "spirit of the law.".

The letter is simply the written legality, but the spirit goes further. It's what the law was intended to accomplish.

That's what expressions such as full featured mean, they're more like the spirit than the letter.

Your example is a simple sentence describing a situation which no one here would disagree with.


That's the problem. You're about the only one here who sees it that way.


If, as most people would, you considered a full featured phone to mean that it has the characteristics that smartphones would have in general, then, yes, #1 would fit.

What you are talking about are details within each feature set.


You consider it to be false, but most here don't agree.


Well, well, now who has hubris?

You can say that you think you are correct. You don't know that you are.

It's funny, but like the Zune, I only see a Win Mobile phone once in a rare while.

Yes, a much better description.

We can just shorten that to an HF phone.

Then we can stop the arguments, I hope.

That's the way it is accepted.

This thread really went downhill after I left, eh?

Ah well, nothing new there. It's the AI way.


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But now that you're back...

ok, you win, we will go with the definition from a trade magazine.

"Hardware or software that provides capabilities and functions comparable to the most advanced models or programs of that category. "

So how is that bluetooth support treating you? Oh? You mean you don't have bluetooth support comparable to the most advanced models in that category? Oh, that would mean the iPhone isn't full featured wouldn't it???

Christ, I hate the fucking internet.

What is wrong with a subsidised phone?

Who would buy a phone then not make any calls or use any data.

It's like buying a car and not wanting to pay for gas.

A TV and not wanting to pay for electricity.

Either way you end up with paperweights.

I was paying $70 a month for 6 years before I got an iPhone, I'll be paying $70 a month for the next two years of my contract and after that it's more than likely that I will be paying $70 a month well into the foreseeable future.

You see I see a phone as something to use and I don't mind paying for that.

Well they can come with a number of restrictions such as being locked to one network, or being feature restricted.

I've been with the same network for 10 years, most of their other handsets have have just as many restrictions, some of those restrictions are very useful in using the phone companies website to buy content.

Seriously the content I now access from Apple is of higher quality, it always works and there is a much greater range to choose from.

With every purchase from iTunes an invoice is emailed to me, the one time they accidentally double charged me there was an email explaining the refund before I was even aware of it.

It used to be really annoying to buy a game off my network provider only to be told it was incompatible with my handset AFTER the fact, then I'd have to wait until the charge appeared on my bill and then contact customer care to arrange a refund.

After updating my handset I'd often go to purchase a favourite game only to find that it was no longer available, most of them were Java junk anyway which was readily available at various pirate sites around the web, you see I've got this strange idea that people should be paid for their work which is why I don't mind paying for content..

As far as A2DP bluetooth goes, I've got 2 stereo bluetooth headsets (Plantronics Pulsar 590A and Plantronics Voyager 855) I got the first one 3 years ago the second a year ago, they both suffer from a problem known as cross body interference, where the music cuts out as the phone moves around with your body movements, believe me for the price you pay for them you are far better off buying a pair of wired headphones.

btw I still use the 855 as a bluetooth headset with my iPhone as far as bluetooth headsets go it is excellent.

That is true, problem is no smartphone in current existence even comes close to the iphone. People are slowly realizing how much their phones suck arse... it is taking time but no matter how many clones come out (android, that *bold* turd, samsung joke phones...) the iphone has no true competition.

It will take other companies several years and many legal battles to "get it right" because apple not only has a monopoly on all the good ideas (patents) but also a huge lead in technology.

So yes, lets hope they all go to hell so a true competitor can emerge and give the iphone a run for the money because right now all smartphone companies are buttsecked.

http://xkcd.com/386/

But I'm not, really.

Seriously, I'm starting to understand the point behind those old stuffy exclusive New England/British men's clubs. Everyone knows each other, so they don't try to piss each other off. It's exclusive, so it keeps the riff-raff out. There's a certain collegiality. And they got great brandy and cigars, a'course.

AI is more a mosh pit. And not in a good way.

I mean, I can get into a 200-post debate over the proper meaning of a phrase here. A linguist's dream to some, an uber-anal nightmare to most anyone else.

Ppl aren't here to exchange ideas or learn anything, they're here to win arguments. End o' story.


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I disagree... and here is why I'm right.

Seriously though, I don't know of any open, internet-based forum that uses pseudonyms that is void of these arguments. Even the etymology and non-computer tech forums I visit get it, though to a lesser extent. For an Apple-based forum AI is much better than every other I've frequented. *cough* MacRumurs *cough* I learn new stuff here so I keep coming back. Plus, there are more than a handful of posters here I do like. I even like yours and TenoBell's bickering; it's reminds me of sibling rivalry because neither one of you seems to ever take it to that "Oh no he didn't!" level lack of decorum that is so easily had with anonymity.

The feature is Bluetooth. It has Bluetooth.

As Hill60 has said, stereo Bluetooth headphones don't work well. You may get luck, sometimes, but likely you will not.

http://www.mobileburn.com/story.jsp?Id=2770

"To a lesser extent" is the whole point for me. Every internet forum has nasty and/or pointless arguments, but AI seems to be worse than most.
And, most annoyingly, consistently so. I also don't dig the whole 'follow the Apple party line or get flamed' aspect either... it feels like soft fascism at times.

There are a few really good posters who are informative, interesting, and even open-minded on occasion, that's why I occasionally come back, but you just have to wade through so much crap.

I dunno Solip... your experiences notwithstanding, there's got to be a better Mac community out there, somewhere. Law of averages n' all that. \


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If you find one let me know.

Good luck, because I haven't found one.

The thing here is that the mods are very lay back. In some other sites, at the first chanch of contention, they come in with heavy sticks swinging.

On some sites, such as Ars Technica, though they're a bit better now, at the first word said that disagrees with a mod, you are out. Period. No protest allowed. But the mods themselves run right over the other posters.

So here, there is more freedom. That's both good and bad. But I'd opt for the freedom rather than the tight control.

And it isn't just here that people get into frenzies. Go to RED's forums. If you even hint that something that RED does isn't just oh so perfect, not only do the fanatic posters dump hard, but so does the owner of RED, who is on the forums, and insults just about everyone who suggests in any way that RED isn't perfect.

Or try some of the Linux distro sites. Even Windows sites can get that way.

It's a matter of control, and censoring heavily, or lack of control, and allowing people to handle their own problems more.

Yeah, I know what you're talking about, Mel. A cellphone forum I occasionally frequent (HoFo), has great info but the most vicious, trigger-happy, Nazi mods of all time (yes, I used the word Nazi. Don't like it? Too bad).

So HoFo often resembles the 'no fun league'. Still, the info's great, so ppl still come.

I don't think the prob is so much the mods here (though maybe you could tighten up things a tad... there IS a middle ground between 'no fun' and total laissez-faire), but rather, it's the posters themselves. Too much fanboi-ism, too much vitriol, waaaaaay too much anal-ness, not enough comraderie.

Yeah, a lot of other forums have their probs too, but that doesn't mean there isn't something better.

So yeah, I will look around. But I'll check back from time to time, to see how things are going at the AI Zoo.

...

QFT.

As much as I admire what RED has done, the forums are at times embarrassing. Jannard is the soup nazi of digital cinema, always at the ready to start screaming "No 4k camera for you!" at the least hint of anything short of open worship. Then the other posters start trying to suck up all the harder, swearing that that bad person will be shunned so that "Jim won't get mad" and start canceling promised innovations or fail to drop tantalizing hints of whatever is in the pipeline.

Compared to that, loyalty to chairman Jobs around here barely registers.

More generally, as I've said elsewhere, the idea that AI punishes people for daring to say a single negative word about the glory of Apple just doesn't hold up to scrutiny, and generally is a strawman defense for poorly thought out criticism.

For instance, Mel thinks glossy screens are A-OK, and I think they suck balls. Even though, in this instance, Mel is so completely and egregiously wrong it should disqualify him from being allowed the company of his fellow men, I have never seen him claim that the reason glossy screens rule is that Apple doesn't make mistakes, or some nonsense such as that.

There are lots and lots of instances like this-- I hate iMovie '08, many folks like it, there were words exchanged, but, for the most part, people's reasons for liking '08 were anything but "Apple knows what's best, Jobs is my God" blah blah blah.

However, if I were of a certain turn of mind, I certainly could have come away from that exchange muttering "stupid Apple apologists just like anything Apple does so wrong I'm right fanboys fanboys fanboys", but that would mean I was kinda full of shit.

My mileage here, both in what I've seen and in what I've directly experienced, definitely varies from that.

Often you can have a thoughtful criticism, and still be attacked for it. When I first started posting here, I was often called a troll. I still get dismissed occasionally for being 'anti-Apple' or some amusing variation thereof on occasion. And I think I've been treated mildly compared to some.

There is definitely some 'groupthink' at AI, but you can fight your way through it by having a tough-enough skin. Doesn't mean that it still doesn't suck, tho'.

...

An open public forum is going to have all kinds of posters. The question is what the predominate tone is.

I know a lot of long time posters here who have been extremely vocal regarding what they regard as misteps by Apple. They don't get shouted down, they get argued with.

It's my opinion that, as Apple's fortunes have improved, we've gotten a larger number of people posting here that seem to just want to tell us what fanboys we are and how Apple's products are generally inferior, overpriced and underperforming. I have no idea what compels anyone to spend their days in this behavior, but based on post counts it appears that there really is a nontrivial demographic that gets off on being King of Apple Sucks on Mac Island.

For instance, in the iPhone forum, there are more than few people who's entire oeuvre consists of repeated reminders that the iPhone is actually a terrible, crippled piece of shit that only sells in the numbers it does because Apple sheeple are easily swayed by shiny things.

Some of those might have the germ of an actual argument, but you can't really be surprised if the response ranges from hostile to dismissive.