Cellphone vendors could exit business if economy remains bleak - Page 5

Originally Posted by addabox

It's my opinion that, as Apple's fortunes have improved, we've gotten a larger number of people posting here that seem to just want to tell us what fanboys we are and how Apple's products are generally inferior, overpriced and underperforming. I have no idea what compels anyone to spend their days in this behavior, but based on post counts it appears that there really is a nontrivial demographic that gets off on being King of Apple Sucks on Mac Island.

For instance, in the iPhone forum, there are more than few people who's entire oeuvre consists of repeated reminders that the iPhone is actually a terrible, crippled piece of shit that only sells in the numbers it does because Apple sheeple are easily swayed by shiny things.

Some of those might have the germ of an actual argument, but you can't really be surprised if the response ranges from hostile to dismissive.

Originally Posted by addabox

For instance, in the iPhone forum, there are more than few people who's entire oeuvre consists of repeated reminders that the iPhone is actually a terrible, crippled piece of shit that only sells in the numbers it does because Apple sheeple are easily swayed by shiny things.

Originally Posted by addabox

Even though, in this instance, Mel is so [I]completely and egregiously wrong it should disqualify him from being allowed the company of his fellow men.

Originally Posted by TBaggins

My mileage here, both in what I've seen and in what I've directly experienced, definitely varies from that.

Often you can have a thoughtful criticism, and still be attacked for it. When I first started posting here, I was often called a troll. I still get dismissed occasionally for being 'anti-Apple' or some amusing variation thereof on occasion. And I think I've been treated mildly compared to some.

There is definitely some 'groupthink' at AI, but you can fight your way through it by having a tough-enough skin. Doesn't mean that it still doesn't suck, tho'.

...

Originally Posted by melgross

He's talking about the mods, those terrible people such as myself, who remove posts at the slightest whim, and threaten people every time we get criticized, or the site is criticized.

Oh, wait, that isn't done here!

Originally Posted by melgross

He's talking about the mods, those terrible people such as myself, who remove posts at the slightest whim, and threaten people every time we get criticized, or the site is criticized.

Oh, wait, that isn't done here!

Originally Posted by TBaggins

I think some of the hostility and dismissiveness comes from the perceptions/attitudes of the posters who respond that way. Too many of them tend to mistake honest critiques for attacks or trolling.

That said, there are a few ppl who are out to troll. But I do wish ppl were better about distinguishing between the trolls and the honest critics.

Originally Posted by melgross

As far as trolling goes, I've found that there are a bunch of people who are trolling. Some of them can get converted by the simple fact of accusing them of it. It's amazing that many trolls don't seem to understand that they are recognized as such, and when they are, they become embarrassed, and attempt to show they aren't. I've seen it happen more than once, which is why I have no problem outing what I think to be one.

Originally Posted by TBaggins

There is a middle ground between being a Nazi, and doing too little.

In any case, I worry less about the mods and more about the posters when it comes to AI. But mods can certainly affect the posters to an extent.

Or completely, if one wants to go to the HoFo 'lockdown' model, where a sneeze gets you banned. I don't dig that.

Funny thing is, posters at HoFo defend that model to the death, and call you a troll for not liking it.


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Originally Posted by TBaggins

As I've said, such ppl exist. But many ppl get accused of trolling who aren't trolls at all.

In fact, I seem to remember butting heads with you quite strongly at our first meeting here. No doubt you thought me a troll then. But I ended up not being one. Food for thought, eh?


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Originally Posted by melgross

Butting heads is fine. It's all very boring if we agree on everything. But I never thought you were a troll.

Originally Posted by melgross

It's a very difficult decision to make.

Over the years, I've been called all sorts of things, including any number of four letter words, or others with the same concept. Never has a mod, to my knowledge, done anything about it, though some people have mailed me privately to ask if they should complain. I've only done so way back, when the statements were so egregious that I had to say something, and that was only to ask to have the person in question watched for a while.

People are funny though. I've responded to some rather stupid and hostile postings, only to have people comment on my response, without making comments on the posts that began it.

I once responded to an insulting post on ARs, and Caesar threatened to ban me for a few days. Seven people came on line to defend my response, and to blame the other poster, but Caesar never acknowledged their defense.

It's all very strange.

The question is just how far it can be allowed to go.

It's easy if someone just blasts out some unacceptable statements about someone, but more often, the tempers rise slowly. Nothing is understood to be amiss until, sometimes, pages later. How does one work with that?

I'd rather see it peter out by itself. As I've been so involved with these things myself here, I don't see it as being a big problem. A warning to calm down seems to be enough most of the time.

Originally Posted by melgross

As far as trolling goes, I've found that there are a bunch of people who are trolling. Some of them can get converted by the simple fact of accusing them of it. It's amazing that many trolls don't seem to understand that they are recognized as such, and when they are, they become embarrassed, and attempt to show they aren't. I've seen it happen more than once, which is why I have no problem outing what I think to be one.

Trolls usually have a simple format. Say something that will get people angry. Hint (or say outright) that people who like, or don't like whatever it is, are fanboys. Say nothing in depth. Refuse to directly answer replies that have logical arguments or facts. Repeat with little variance the original statement(s).

When I see that happen, as I did recently, I always assume it's trolling.

My philosophy on Apple over the past few years is this:

Whether Jobs is brilliant, or just lucky, he's made mostly very good decisions. Most other CEO's from other companies in the industry, brilliant or not, haven't.

Apple has mostly made higher quality products, while most competitors haven't.

Apple has mostly made products that people want, where most competitors haven't.

Apple has mostly seen where things are going, where most competitors haven't.

Apple has managed their finances better than most of their competitors.

Apple's marketing has been better than most of the marketing of their competitors.

Apple has screwed up, but less than most of their competitors.

That covers most of it.

There's plenty to like there in Apple, but there's also enough they've done to disagree with and grumble about.

I do all of that.

As Apple is successful, mostly I find things to agree with. But I also find things to disagree with.

At all times I try to remember that Apple is a company that must think about the company first, and that whatever they do, its not because they are some mythical benevolent godfather, but a company that must care about existing, growing, and being profitable, and that everything else follows from that.

That means that there will always be some group that is not happy with something they may have done, but whose desires simply doesn't fall into the company's plans.

It's always interesting to see that some newbie who doesn't know the senior members of the site, is willing to label us as fanboys based on a single discussion over a single issue.

Originally Posted by wobegon

In addition, there's an even more specific segment that seems to be really popular: touchscreen smartphones. And with the G1 not being much to talk about while the BlackBerry Storm continues to take on a lot of bad press, Apple is in a terribly good position.

Originally Posted by nikon133

Apple is in the sweet spot right now. If they make, say, bottle opener, I bet huge majority of Mac/iPod/iPhone users will get one... just because it is Apple. Other brands simply don't command such loyalty, and that is - from my point of view - the biggest achievement Jobs managed to pull out.

Originally Posted by nikon133

It is not just touchscreen. Palm Treo line has touch screens on most of their models for years, and many Pocket PC phones have touch screen as well.

Originally Posted by nikon133

It is not just touchscreen. Palm Treo line has touch screens on most of their models for years, and many Pocket PC phones have touch screen as well. It is not even about features - people ARE complaining about missing ones. It is design of software and hardware, and their integration... plus, of course, the image factor and brand loyalty.

Apple is in the sweet spot right now. If they make, say, bottle opener, I bet huge majority of Mac/iPod/iPhone users will get one... just because it is Apple. Other brands simply don't command such loyalty, and that is - from my point of view - the biggest achievement Jobs managed to pull out.

Originally Posted by melgross

The feature is Bluetooth. It has Bluetooth.

As Hill60 has said, stereo Bluetooth headphones don't work well. You may get luck, sometimes, but likely you will not.

http://www.mobileburn.com/story.jsp?Id=2770

Originally Posted by Kibitzer

Where are cell phones headed? This link has been posted elsewhere, but it's worth viewing in the context of this thread.

http://fora.tv/2008/07/07/Walt_Mossb...the_Cell_Phone

Quotes:

"The iPhone is the first hand-held computer that happens to make voice calls."

Originally Posted by jfanning

Maybe they don't work well because they are just using the standard bluetooth headset profile, not a2dp?

You are fine to live in your little dream world of your perfect device, I don't mind, if you want to think you have bluetooth device, that is fine by me.

Originally Posted by melgross

You're impossible to deal with.

Now you talk about a "perfect device" when no one means that at all, which you very well know.

But you want to up the ante so to speak.

If you can't get your way, then you change it.

Not good debating technique.

That's why it really does look as though you are trolling.

Originally Posted by jfanning

Maybe they don't work well because they are just using the standard bluetooth headset profile, not a2dp?

You are fine to live in your little dream world of your perfect device, I don't mind, if you want to think you have bluetooth device, that is fine by me.

Originally Posted by jfanning

So how is that bluetooth support treating you?

Originally Posted by jfanning

Oh? You mean you don't have bluetooth support comparable to the most advanced models in that category? Oh, that would mean the iPhone isn't full featured wouldn't it???

Originally Posted by solipsism

Don't forget that not there are different touchscreen technologies. I think Apple is the sole owner and the only one using capacitance touchscreens.

Originally Posted by jfanning

You can think that all you want, you gave me a definition that you were happy with, I could still prove that the device doesn't meet that definition, and you still will not accept it. If you want to continue living in a fantasy world, you are more than welcome.

I haven't mentioned a "perfect device" as you put it, you are the one that brings that continues to bring that up.

Originally Posted by Tauron


Repeat after me: Apple is the ONLY manufacturer of capacitance touchscreens.

Originally Posted by TBaggins

I do wonder sometimes why Apple has so few of the Bluetooth profiles/so little BT functionality active on the iPhone. Last I checked anyway.

I mean, some of us are going to say, "Aww, BT sucks anyway, I don't need it" yadda yadda yadda, but that still doesn't answer the Q.

Just wondering. After all, a lot of ppl used to slam Verizon for having most of the BT profiles disabled in nearly all of their handsets, until VZW finally started to ease up on that recently. \


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Originally Posted by melgross

There was about the same definition given by a well established magazine shown here. A definition, that I'm sure if you really wanted to, would be seen to be repeated many other places.

Also, you don't remember what you post a short time after you post it.

You are now saying that: "I haven't mentioned a "perfect device" as you put it, you are the one that brings that continues to bring that up."

Well, this is where I have the right to demand that you go back over every one of my posts to the thread, and find one single instance where I said "perfect device".

Despite your denial, YOU are the one who mentioned "perfect device" in YOUR post just before your one I'm responding to now! You are the one expecting a device that meets your odd description to be perfect.

Here is the quote from YOU:

"You are fine to live in your little dream world of your perfect device, I don't mind, if you want to think you have bluetooth device, that is fine by me."

That is where the first mention of a "perfect device" came up.

Don't forget your own poor attempt at defining what full featured means: Every feature that is possible, which, is, of course, impossible.
You are looking for the prefect device, not me. That's pretty clear.

I hope you find one.

Originally Posted by melgross

Apple rarely likes to make a function available that works poorly.

Most BT functions work poorly, or are bettered by other functions.

Why offer something that is more trouble than it's worth?

Can you name one single function of BT that Apple left out, that does better than other functions that ARE built into the iPhone/iTouch?

jfanning seems to think that not adding badly thought out functionality that barely works at all is a bad thing in itself. I disagree.

If BT ever does some of these things properly, and as well, or better than what's available now, then it's likely Apple will include them. After all, it's mostly software. It's not like building another port into the device as with FW.

Originally Posted by TBaggins

I think some of the hostility and dismissiveness comes from the perceptions/attitudes of the posters who respond that way. Too many of them tend to mistake honest critiques for attacks or trolling. ...

Originally Posted by TenoBell

When people criticize the iPhone and complain about Apple's choices. I never deny them their right to criticize or complain. I challenge them to provide evidence outside of their personal opinion. A supporting example of how Apple and the iPhone would benefit from what they feel is missing or Apple doing wrong.

Few people provide this supporting evidence. Instead of debating on the facts more often than not they resort to fanboy accusations.

Originally Posted by TBaggins

Sure, T. The prob is, ppl can provide you with tons of evidence outside of their personal opinion, and you still tend to deny it all, in favor of some sort of 'Apple is always' right ethic that you seem to have. I've at times said that arguing with you is like debating a rock, and while I'm joking a tiny bit, there's some truth to that.

I contrast this with someone like Mel, who thinks Apple is usually right, but who will candidly admit things like, "Yeah, Steve probably did take away Firewire too early."

You're not quite as open-minded as you seem to think, T. That said, I do respect your intelligence and the interest you take in the various discussions. I just don't think you're as interesting to debate as many others here, because I already know what you're going to say before you say it, pretty much. It's like debating a conservative over tax policy.
...

Originally Posted by TBaggins

In the end, isn't this quibbling more than a little silly?

I couldn't care less about the exact definition of a "perfect device." This argument is so AI, and not in a good way.

You both could be discussing matters of much greater import.


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Originally Posted by melgross

You're impossible to deal with.

Now you talk about a "perfect device" when no one means that at all, which you very well know.

But you want to up the ante so to speak.

If you can't get your way, then you change it.

Not good debating technique.

That's why it really does look as though you are trolling.

Originally Posted by TBaggins

Not sure I really buy into the "don't include poor or hard-to-use functionality" argument. After all, that's been used as an argument as to why there's no MMS on the iPhone, when in actuality MMS is very easy, useful, and quite popular. I think that argument has sort of become a generic 'get out of jail free' card for Apple when they omit features or functionality. Not that I think that every feature must be included, or is particularly useful... just that I think Apple does go too far sometimes in its features/functionality omissions. Steve's a bit too aggressive in his love of minimalism at times, this is true of most ideological types.

In any case, here's a list of BT profiles. I'll leave it to others to debate whether the inclusion of any of these (beyond the two already supported, Headset and Hands-Free) would be a good idea on the iPhone:


1.1 Advanced Audio Distribution Profile (A2DP)
1.2 Audio/Video Remote Control Profile (AVRCP)
1.3 Basic Imaging Profile (BIP)
1.4 Basic Printing Profile (BPP)
1.5 Common ISDN Access Profile (CIP)
1.6 Cordless Telephony Profile (CTP)
1.7 Device ID Profile (DID)
1.8 Dial-up Networking Profile (DUN)
1.9 Fax Profile (FAX)
1.10 File Transfer Profile (FTP)
1.11 General Audio/Video Distribution Profile (GAVDP)
1.12 Generic Access Profile (GAP)
1.13 Generic Object Exchange Profile (GOEP)
1.14 Hard Copy Cable Replacement Profile (HCRP)
1.15 Hands-Free Profile (HFP)
1.16 Human Interface Device Profile (HID)
1.17 Headset Profile (HSP)
1.18 Intercom Profile (ICP)
1.19 LAN Access Profile (LAP)
1.20 Object Push Profile (OPP)
1.21 Personal Area Networking Profile (PAN)
1.22 Phone Book Access Profile (PBAP)
1.23 Serial Port Profile (SPP)
1.24 Service Discovery Application Profile (SDAP)
1.25 SIM Access Profile (SAP, SIM)
1.26 Synchronisation Profile (SYNCH)
1.27 Video Distribution Profile (VDP)
1.28 Wireless Application Protocol Bearer (WAPB)


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Originally Posted by Tofino

will you please stop feeding it?

Originally Posted by melgross

Certainly, at this time, I can't see the virtue in most of those for an iPhone, do you?

Some of them don't even work properly, and most of the others are done better in other ways.

Often, when some "standard" come out, they try to put the old kitchen sink in to see whether that give it a better chance of surviving, hoping that someone, somewhere, will find a use for at least one of the uses, and that if enough do it, it will "make it".

But that doesn't mean that it's a good idea.

The biggest thing here seems to be the idea of stereo headphones, I wish it were possible, in a reliable way. But it isn'tyet. Possibly, in the next incarnation of BT, they will fix the problems, but until then, it's not much of a feature, as it's broken.

Originally Posted by hill60

Personally the way I used bluetooth was something I had to weigh up carefully before purchasing an iPhone.

A2DP was only part of that decision, the other bluetooth features I mainly used or tried to use were:-

Voice dialing:- I have never used a phone that could get this right, no matter how clearly I tried to enunciate it would never work properly, (e.g. I'd try to call Sam it would call Shane.)

File transfer this was something I used on a regular basis, the ability to quickly share contact information or a photo with another handset, downside when you do it in a busy area and your phone retrieves a list of in-range devices it could take a long time for it to resolve device names, (especially if some of them moved out of range) until you found the one you wanted
now I use email or Facebook to share photo's (the ability to attach more than one at a time would be nice) and iBeam for contacts.

Tethering (using as a modem attached to a PC via bluetooth) I used to use this a lot when I didn't have a phoneline, with Windows once it was installed and set up it worked well, with Linux it was a nightmare, since moving and getting a phoneline and ADSL I no longer need it.

One of the things I have found is since getting an iPhone I hardly ever use a PC for email, it's only when I want to send attachments (aside from photo's) that I fire up my email client.

My 2c no technical merit merely a relation of my personal experiences.